After Week 17 was all said and done, we knew that the Cleveland Browns would have the 4th overall pick in the draft. We also knew that their second draft pick would be anywhere between the 21st and 32nd picks in the draft, depending on how soon the Atlanta Falcons would be eliminated in the playoffs. In a best-case scenario, they would be eliminated from the playoffs in the wildcard round. That's exactly what happened.
The "big trade" that the Falcons were praised for -- one that was supposed to "get them over the hump" for a chance at finally making the Super Bowl -- failed to net their offense a single point against the Giants defense. Shut. Out. Tell me who won that trade in the long run? Because Atlanta was eliminated in round one, the Browns were guaranteed to have either pick No. 22 and No. 23; the Bengals had already claimed a higher spot than Cincinnati because they lost and had a worse record, while the Lions had claimed a later spot than Atlanta by virtue of having a tougher strength of schedule and having lost to the Saints.
The shocker came when Pittsburgh (who had two more wins than Atlanta) lost to the 8-8 Broncos. Browns fans savored that victory all day, and probably will for the rest of this postseason. The loss by Pittsburgh made the Bengals No. 21, the Browns No. 22, the Lions No. 23, and the Steelers No. 24.
Now? We wait. It'll be several fun months of speculation as to who the Browns will pick, or if a trade will be made for a quarterback. Let the offseason begin.
0 recs | 552 comments
Was going to be happy if the total of the picks was below 30 before the season so I’ll take this. I think we’re all going to be suckers anytime we see “Mock Draft” on any link for the next few months.
johnf34 - January 9, 2012
First. We should go with Griffin, Blackmon, or trade.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012 via Android app
Damn app making me look stupid
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012 via Android app
Trade.
johnf34 - January 9, 2012
Griffin
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Griffin
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Griffin, Blackmon, then I suppose Claiborne.
PaduaDSP - January 10, 2012
Yes, yes, or yes please.
Vududawg - January 10, 2012
with the 4th pick
mock smock, say we draft blackmon, if not there than richardson, let rg3 go to washington. he would get murdard in the AFC NORTH.
Tdawg1946 - January 9, 2012
True, anyone can be murdard in the AFC North because we’re surrounded by a bunch of criminals, but I think he’ll be fine. He’s bigger than people think.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Insert Ray Lewis joke here
BuenosAires_Dawg - January 9, 2012
you just did…
pwndabear - January 10, 2012
wtf is murdurd. Sounds like something you do after your stomach cramps up from too many gyros. Drop a big ole’ murdurd.
Gradysmanldy - January 10, 2012
Its spelled Murdard.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
For some reason it makes me think of retarded mustard.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Colt McCoy isn’t getting any less murdered right now. But I think griffin might slip our grasp
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012 via Android app
I don’t think Blackmon or Richardson is worth that number 4 pick. Also, I don’t know what murdard means.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Blackmon would be awesome if we’re going to go with Colt, and I wouldn’t die if we did. His second year in the system he should be getting better.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
I like it!
johnf34 - January 9, 2012
I honestly don’t have any reason behind it, but, my gut feeling is Blackmon will be a good NFL WR, not great. I have been totally wrong before, and I very well could be here, haha. I think I would rather have Alshon.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Yeah if he times fast at the combine he’ll be flying up the draft boards, he’s freaking huge. Could be megatron-esque if he doesn’t have attitude issues.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
That’s the thing, I think Blackmon is gonna be good no matter what. I think Alshon could be great. However, he could also be a bust? I’m not big on 40 times, but if he runs in the 4.5 range, he’s gonna go pretty high. I have been happy with people starting to put Floyd in front of him on some mocks with the hope Cleveland could have a chance at him with their second 1st round pick. But, after what he did in the bowl game, he’s definitely gonna fly back up the boards.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Yep, that’s what I’m thinking anything around 4.5 with that speed, if he doesn’t have stone hands and a criminal record he’ll be good.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
From what i’ve seen, Blackmon is much better at creating separation and getting open. They’re both physical specimens tho…
Vududawg - January 10, 2012
YOu know, at this point I don’t even care about speed. Anyone who can get open (doesn’t always require pure speed) AND can catch the ball consistently has my vote.
JustBob - January 10, 2012
I agree actually. Like I have always said, he’s Dez Bryant 2.0. Similar sizes, speed, catching ability, offenses.
I would stay away from Alshon personally. He mailed it in this season, and any player with motivation problems in college scares me.
I this this is the year for mid-round WR prospects like Toon, McNutt, Dwight Jones, Broyles, etc. None of the first rounders impress me in relation to their draft positions.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 9, 2012
That’s the thing with Blackmon. I think he is the sure thing at WR in this draft, but nowhere near the level of Green, Johnson, or Fitzgerald. You could be right about Alshon, but I think if there is one of those guys in this draft, it would be him.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
I think he has much better catching ability than Dez.
I do agree with you on the midround guys. I like Blackmon, but guys like Toon, mcnutt, that one guy from wmu, etc…
bross09 - January 10, 2012
plus he’s much smarterer than Dez.
dawgtribe - January 10, 2012
and has a much better attitude.
PaduaDSP - January 10, 2012
That’s not true at all. Dez has tremendous ball skills.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 10, 2012
Dez had some pretty awesome ball skills, but Blackmon may have the best ball skills I have seen in a while.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Did Dez get hurt this year? Didn’t hear much about him.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
I’m pretty sure he was hurt for a few weeks.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
He was. But still a force on that Cowboy team.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
Yeah I would be very happy to have a receiver like that.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
yep. Had him in fantasy. he was hurt for a little while, but was still a very good player.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
No, he just mails it in at times during games.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
"Uh-huh-huh...you said ball skills...huh-huh"
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
ISWDT
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
You have to be kidding me
The Licensed Pessimist - January 11, 2012
Interesting to see if we can trade out of 4 to give RGIII to Washington and pick up Washington’s 2nd rounder. That would have us picking at 6, 22, 38, 40.
gentryholdem - January 9, 2012
If H&H don’t want RG3, and Champ is pretty sure they don’t, then that’s a no brainer. Tampa takes Claiborne and we take whoever is left. The only problem is that everything at that spot seems like a reach.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Not sure tampa needs Claiborne, with Talib Qwali or whoever that CB they got down there is.
Gradysmanldy - January 10, 2012
That guys going to jail probably and Tiki’s retiring.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Mustard Murder?
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
No thanks!
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
After last night, I would be shocked. Here we are in the BCS championship game and Alabama would not even give him the ball, I agree, NO THANKS
champion64 - January 10, 2012
This. I follow Tom Withers on Twitter and he was calling for the Browns to draft Richardson last night. He called him “my guy” and I just about lost it. So tired of the talking heads calling for us to draft him like he’ll be some kind of magic turnaround bean worth swapping the family cow for. Thanks but no thanks. I have starved enough with this team since ’99 with bad drafts.
Off-the-Chain - January 10, 2012 via mobile
IF they pick Trent Richardson , I will not watch them. He isnt even being used in the BCS chanpionship game, so how can he be worth the 4th pick over all? The mock drafts are a joke. Luck will be gone, and so will Blackmon and Kalil. I think they will trade down or take Claiborne. RG3 wont happen
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Yeah its funny they put in their backup RB and he looked good too, just like Richardson looked good after whathisname won the Heisman.
Why won’t RG3 happen?
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Because he’s too small and will get injured because he runs so much, duh.
Adrock2099 - January 9, 2012
If he is available and not picked by us at the 4th pick in the draft , will you all apologize?
champion64 - January 9, 2012
No? The only way you’d even be considered correct is if he gets hurt a ton and proves ineffective as a QB, regardless of who drafts him. Even then I wouldn’t, because your argument is pure guesswork. That would be like expecting me to call you Nostradamus Jr. because you guessed what number a die landed on one time.
Adrock2099 - January 9, 2012
We wont draft him
champion64 - January 10, 2012
So you’re saying you have faith in Colt?
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
No, but I think IF Griffin is the only quarterback we can chose at the 4th pick, We will either get a free agent QB or have Colt for another year. That is what I think. I HAVE BEEN WRONG before. It is my best guess. I like Griffin, just not sure you spend a number 4 pick over all in the draft on him. My opinion is you want a player like Joe Thomas, or Joe Haden who you are 95% sure will be starters for years to come at the number 4 pick.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
What made Joe Haden any more of a lock at #7 than RG3 would be at #4? There were more questions about Haden being picked that high than there are about RG3 being picked that high.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Drives me nuts to not personally know an NFL scout to see what the inside scoop is on some guys. No doubt they are much better than my fans perspective on players.
Kimble_79 - January 10, 2012
I think Richardson is gonna be really, really good. I just think at this point in the NFL it’s better to have a tandem in the backfield than one superstar. Not sure what your problem with RG3 is?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Just thinking Heckert and Holmgren are looking to add picks if they cant get Luck for all the quarterbacks coming out. I dont think they are sold on RGIII. An outside shot they pick Claiborne from LSU
champion64 - January 9, 2012
quarterbacks coming out next year I mean
champion64 - January 9, 2012
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m sick of waiting to pick a QB. We need a QB now.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
You have nothing to support that thought. RG3 is very similar to other QBs that they have worked with including Steve Young, Favre and McNabb.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Griffin will never be the three you mentioned above.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
1. you don’t know that
2. I didn’t say he would be, just that he has qualities of other QBs these guys have worked with.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Is that your opinion or fact? See it is your opinion and I dont agree with it, but I am not going to tear you down because of it.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Is this your opinion or fact? Because you stated it as a fact.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
Most of what we say here is opinion
champion64 - January 10, 2012
And most of us will provide a reason for ours. You have not.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
No one tears you down about stating your opinion. The problem is, you don’t say “I don’t think they’ll draft RG3.” You say Heckert and Holmgren aren’t sold on RG3. Go ahead and state your opinion. If you’re gonna state someone else’s opinion try to have some kind of facts to back it up.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
You keep saying this, but you’ve NEVER had any information to back it up!! Please, show me where they said they don’t like RG3.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
He said, he was THINKING that H & H don’t like him. Nobody has to back up an opinion.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Well there has to be a reason why he thinks they don’t like him, right? That’s all I was asking.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Could be just a hunch, looking at how they talk, how they act, etc. Either way, it’s nearly impossible to tell what our coaches are thinking.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Right, I agree with you that it is basically impossible to tell what they are thinking. Which is exactly why I asked the question.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
My guess is they don’t want Griffin, I’m not so sure of this but I don’t think he fits the WCO.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Well they’ve already said that’s not true, and its not true, so you may rethink that.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Who said what’s not true?
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
They said good players can play in any system.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
If you’re a good player, you can fit any offensive system.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
As far as I know the only time Griffin has ever been mentioned by anyone in the Browns was when Shurmur said he’s a “tremendous talent.” Then he was asked if he could fit into the Brown’s system and he said “good players fit in any offense.” I just don’t get how this would make anyone think that they don’t like him?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
It’s not that I think they DON’T like him, just that they like someone else better, or don’t like him enough to justify discarding McCoy and using the 4th pick on him.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Who do you think they like better? And, what makes you think that?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Honestly I thought it was Barkley, because USC had a pro style offense I think and I think Holmgren wants to get somebody who will take the least amount of time to understand a pro offense.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
That’s entirely possible. What sucks is it’s impossible to plan for next years draft.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Unless you throw ALL of the games, which will never happen.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
You can stockpile picks and pray. That’s about it.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
Yep, and I guess that would be possible if we traded our 4th pick this year in some type of package that involved another first next year.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
I’m fine with that. Just want two players in the first this year. I feel that’s our best bet.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
I wasn’t trying to say that’s what I want to happen. It’s just the only way you can really “plan” to have a high pick in a draft is to have enough ammo to move up to a higher pick. Of course the sure fire way to do that would be to have two number ones.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
The Pats always seem to have multiple 1st round picks. It’s working out well for them.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
Well… It WAS working out well for them. Although they’re in the playoffs every year, they haven’t won many playoff games recently.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Playoffs?
Brocolis154033 - January 10, 2012 via mobile
That would definitely be better for next year, but I’m not sure if it wouldn’t limit us in long term potential. It sort of depends on where you see Colt’s ceiling.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
If they liked McCoy I would have hoped they would have shown a bit more confidence. I understand smoke screening and all, but you protect your young QB prospects. Telling the public its an open competition basically is the same as saying, we’re not sure about this guy.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
I was thinking this same thing.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
After this season, I don’t know how anyone can be anything more than speculative about McCoy. Unless they think that a real offseason can improve him.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
I wish, it would be great not to have to worry about a rookie QB developing and maybe being a bust. We know Colt is at least average-ish but too many people whose opinions I respect don’t think he can do it. Some others, like BOAB, whose opinion I respect on all things not-Colt related because he has orange tinted shades.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Not sure who BOAB is
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
No one you need to worry about.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Resident Colt apologist, good guy, knows football but has a soft spot for Colt.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
I just don’t think you can keep putting off drafting a franchise QB out of fear he is gonna bust.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
This is where I am
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Draft a QB every year until you find him
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Yep, as crazy as it sounds, I’m with you on this.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
This.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Isn’t Holmgren’s MO pretty much “draft a quarterback every year whether you need one or not”?
woodsmeister - January 10, 2012
I think he’s 1 out of 2 for us, so I would say that’s probably not necessarily true.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
Being a Browns fan you see why it is a fear, correct? Because busts mean rebuild, again, again, again.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
No it doesn’t. It means you wait till the next year with the team intact and you draft another QB.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
And that puts the team back a year. But not getting a QB could put you back forever.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Then the hell were you just saying?
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
I think he was agreeing with you.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Yeah I was agreeing, you basically have to get a QB and hope he’ll pan out, or have some sort of clairvoyance to forsee the future. Or have a knack for seeing good QBs, which Holmgren should have right?
macdowellm03 - January 10, 2012
We are set back no matter what if we don’t have a Qb.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
True, just not sold on one, as of right now, being worthy of a #4 pick. But then again, I didn’t think many should have been drafted where they did last year. Team needs will affect the QB class this year for sure.
Kimble_79 - January 10, 2012
Yeah, that could happen. Or, we could just keep winning 4 or 5 games every year?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
But not taking the chance means the same thing. At least if you take a QB there’s a chance he won’t bust.
You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
notthatnoise - January 9, 2012
This.
Detroit still took Calvin Johnson despite 2 1/2 busts at early WR draft picks. Seemed to work out well for them.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 9, 2012
I think its more risky not to draft someone you think is a franchise QB and count on the average guy to develop into a SB winning QB. I mean if that happened you can always trade the good prospect for a crap load of stuff.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Yep. We might be waiting around for awhile for our 6th round Brady. Or finding our Warner bagging groceries somewhere.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
My point is I dont think they see Griffin as a Franchise Quarterback. I think they like a QB to sit back and throw, like Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Rotheisberger, instead of guys who improvise and think it is ok to run, like Vick, Griffin, ect… My opinion again.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Wasn’t it just yesterday that you were thinking you wanted RG3 at #4? Or am I confused?
Kimble_79 - January 10, 2012
I think you were thinking of me. He asked me who I’d take with Luck and Blackmon off the board. He responded by booing and hissing.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Roethlisberger’s claim to fame is that he improvises well.
Someone also correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t a WCO do well with a mobile QB, like Steve Young?
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
I think it’s safe to say that any type of offense will do well with a mobile QB. But just being mobile alone doesn’t help in a WCO style.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
This.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Thank you for seeing what I was saying. YOu are right no one knows, it is jsut a feeling
champion64 - January 9, 2012
He ate a sub sandwich Heckert was saving for his second lunch one time. Thus, not QB material.
Off-the-Chain - January 10, 2012 via mobile
You have nothing to support that Heckert and Holmgren will select Griffin. It is your opinion and I dont mock you for it.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
The difference is that he states it as an opinion. People get angry at you because you dismissively state your opinion as a fact.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
No it is the way you perceive it. Read my post most of them say opinion. And I dont give flying rats ass if people get angry. Most of the people here were pissed when I said Holmgren and Shurmur were not behind McCoy in week 8 but I was right. No one says that. I also said that McCoy wasn’t cutting it in week 9 because he could put together a drive, and I was jumped all over. I also said they need to draft a quarterback and I was jumped all over, now everyone wants RG3 and has forgotten all about McCoy. And I am the one that is wrong. Yeah right.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
No, everyone knew they weren’t. You were wrong.
Also, unless you provide proof, you’re blowing smoke out your ass.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
Yup, there is literally 0 proof to this, even though he’d like to read it into unrelated comments.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
you are telling me when I said McCoy was the problem and the Holmgren and Shurmur werent set on hiim , I was wrong?
champion64 - January 10, 2012
How was I wrong?
champion64 - January 10, 2012
They are not behind him as the starter or the guy. Remember this is going to be his third year, so no more dont have enough information on him crap you all said was the problem. He is not the guy, but I had to put up with crap all year for saying it.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Dude, please stop. Just stop. Everyone here has had enough of your schtick already.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
I said you were wrong about everyone thinking one way and you being “correct”
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
This is bullshit, and you know it. All anyone ever said was that we wanted to let the season play out before we made any firm judgments. The FO basically said the same thing throughout the season. Therefore, we were right. All you ever said was “COLTS ONLY 4 FEET TALL, CUT HIM!!!!!!!!1”
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Thank you!
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
The SB Nation app really needs to incorporate recs. Well said.
Legoman0721 - January 11, 2012 via Android app
Again, if you just say YOU don’t like Griffin and don’t think we should draft him, then okay. But, instead, you like to say H and H don’t like Griffin and they’re not going to draft him. We are just asking where you heard or read this?
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
I never said I heard them. Just in the words they said about having a guy who stands and throws and stays in the pocket, I am reading the signals as maybe no. I dont have a crystal ball just making an assumption. LOOK I wont be upset if we draft him, Part of me would like to see someone that exciting with the Browns.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I don’t remember them ever saying they wanted a guy to stay in the pocket either.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Okay. Then, if you could do me a big favor, point me in the direction of where you heard they want a guy to stand and throw and stay in the pocket.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
In his press conference he said Ideally you would like a guy who stays in the pocket and can extend the play, and throw. The quarterback is there to throw. It is in the press conference with Heckert
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Do you know how quarterbacks extend the play? By running.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
In their press conference both Holmgren and Heckert stated that they want to use their picks, not trade down.
notthatnoise - January 9, 2012
Right. Heckert has made it quite clear we are going to unload on the stockpile we’ve amased.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Does that mean they will not trade DOWN or not trade at all?
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
They aren’t giving up any picks or positions this draft.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Right. Heckert said he want’s that 4th pick.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
Good, no weird tactics, just take the player you think is the best where you need him, I like it.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
We cannot predict what Heckert will do, its Jan 10th!
Red-Right-88 - January 10, 2012
Well, I wouldn’t say it means anything concretely. I think it means they aren’t likely to trade down, and will only trade up if they fall in love with someone. They might still do either, I just don’t think it’s likely.
notthatnoise - January 9, 2012
I think this proves that they thought Julio was a reach last year at the 6 spot and they didn’t really like anyone else that high in the draft.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
They proved it last year the second they traded out.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
LOL, true
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
I actually don’t think it means anything at all. I don’t believe a word any NFL GM says during the offseason about the draft or free agents.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Except that Heckert usually follows through with his vague statements.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Yea for all the talk about smokescreens here, our guys seem to follow through with what they say.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
The only reason I think it means anything is they were adamant about it. They didn’t really leave any options open, they said they were going to use the picks. Obviously they aren’t dumb enough to have that absolutely decided before the draft even starts, but I think it would take a pretty good deal to make them budge.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
I understand why you don’t like him, you’ve certainly covered that, but I’m still waiting for you to produce a single piece of evidence to suggest our FO doesn’t like him. If you have none, you should stop speaking this as the gospel according to Joe Thomas.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
This is the only thing I’ve been asking out of the guy. Never any proof to back it up, but he sure likes to say it over and over again.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
The thing is his opinion is his opinion only and he doesn’t need facts to back it up. But when someone else has an opinion (whether on his statements or not) he wants facts to validate that opinion. It’s been an endless circle for quite some time.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
I have no problem with his opinion. He likes to state Holmgren and Heckert’s opinion too, though. Somehow, he is the only person who has heard or read these opinions of theirs and it must be a secret as to where he hears them.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
But it’s his opinion on what he thinks their opinion is. There lies the secret.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
Haha. Fair enough.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
And he’s saying it’s a fact.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
And from what I’ve gathered the past months his facts turn in to opinons.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
That makes it true.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
the Bengals had already claimed a higher spot than Cincinnati because they lost and had a worse record. Huh?
Kaner - January 9, 2012
He meant higher spot than Cleveland.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
actually, I think he meant higher than Atlanta, but since we’re getting their pick, your way works just as well
Mr. Bad Example - January 9, 2012
Much like last nights Steeler loss to Tebow, we all win.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
exactly!
Mr. Bad Example - January 9, 2012
I say it goes:
1. Luck (Colts)
2. Kalil (Rams)
3. Blackmon (Vikings)
4. Pick Traded to Redskins who select Robert Griffin III (Cleveland receives Washington’s 1st round pick in the 2012 NFL draft (the number 6th over all) and Washington’s 2nd round pick in 2012 NFL draft( the number 39th pick over all) and Washingtons 3 round pick in the 2013 NFL draft)
champion64 - January 9, 2012
This is possible. But if they like Griffin, they’re gonna draft him.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
How do you know?
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Because they haven’t committed to Colt and in this scenario they like him?
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Maybe, my feeling is no they wont take RGIII, I mean his stats are much like McCoy’s out of college why would you draft what you already have?
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Seriously?
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
You really think because their stats in college are similar that they’re the same QB? Once again, this tells me you don’t watch college football.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
No actually McCoy was more sucessful, so what are you watching
champion64 - January 9, 2012
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m watching two completely different quarterbacks with completely different strengths and weaknesses to their games, one of whom is widely projected as a top 5 pick by NFL scouts and just about every talking head out there.
Adrock2099 - January 9, 2012
Pretty sure we watched the same thing. Champion64 just did some quick internet research, then made some things up in his own head and considers it factual.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Moron I know more about football than you have at your stage of life. You will see, he wont be selected at 4
champion64 - January 9, 2012
I would tend to disagree that you know more about football than me. But, thanks for calling me a moron.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Only a moron assumes they know more than someone else over the internet.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
TheDriveStillHurts - January 9, 2012
This is what I was thinking of what I hit post. Haha.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Hahaha. This is great. Never seen it before.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Love it
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Great retort
champion64 - January 10, 2012
You read too much in to nothing at all. The press conference thread is a good example of this. Everything they said you replied that it meant they clearly didn’t like McCoy.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
C’Mon dude, you’re better than this. Don’t call names.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
As you go through the thread, you’ll find he resorts to not only moron, but also idiot and high school girls.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
I watched McCoy play QB for Texas, and have since watched him play QB for the Browns. And, I watched Griffin play QB for Baylor. That’s what I watched. What did you watch?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
McCoy was a better qb in college than Griffin, but I feel that Griffin will have a better pro career. Neither would I pick in the first round
champion64 - January 9, 2012
McCoy never won a heisman
The Licensed Pessimist - January 9, 2012
Doug Flutie won the Heismann but was he as good as Kosar? No, McCoy had his team in the hunt for a national title, Griffin never did. Luck was the best quarterback in college this year and will be drafted as such, so who gives a crap about the biased Heismann trophy.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I don’t know if I would rely on just a BCS appearance as a basis for comparison. There’s something like ten other guys on offense. Even with a stud QB, there are no one-man shows in football.
JustBob - January 10, 2012
There was in Stanford, his line and receivers sucked
champion64 - January 10, 2012
You mean the offensive line that had two first round draft picks playing on it?
Dude, you need to start bringing some facts to this thing.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
NO DUDE, the offensive line that gave up 11 sacks this year as oppossed to only 6 in the past two seasons, Those three guys graduated last year. Stanford’s 2011 line was in transition this year. You ought to look at the facts before you say something
champion64 - January 10, 2012
What three guys graduated last year?
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
Jonathon Martin projects top 10 and they have the best Guard prospect in the country. Also is 11 sacks a lot? That’s less than one a game, doesn’t seem that bad.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Hilarious.
So the team that finished with the 8th ranked offense, including 18th in Rushing YPG, has a bad offensive line because they gave up 11 sacks (which was the 4 least in college football!)?
Give me a break.
Bernie19Kosar - January 12, 2012
Can we vote him off the island yet?
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Seriously? DeCastro and Martin suck don’t they? Fleener is mostly considered the 2nd or 3rd rated TE in the draft.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
those two were very good but the line lost three starters from a year ago and started inexperienced and it suffered more this year. I did read and I watched Luck, it was also the reason the routes run were shorter this year at Stanford.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
So did his line suck, or were they very good? Martin is the second best tackle in the draft and DeCastro is the best guard in the draft. Make up your mind.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
You aren’t really proving anything in your posts. The fact that the line lost 3 starters isn’t indicative of the line sucking as you said.
The fact that they have 2 top 20 picks alone makes your argument pretty stupid, and considering the fact Luck was throwing to primarily wide open targets, I would say that the WR’s didn’t suck either.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 11, 2012
REC
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
Do any of you read anything about football. It was said that Luck did not have much to work with this year as far as a line or in form of receivers but still had a great year.
December 2011 (post season analysis) ..Unfortunately, an unkind offseason left a lot of questions for this team. They lost their head coach, three of their elite offensive line players and only return 5 total starters on offense. The offense has two very good O-Line men Martin and DeCastro (both who should move on to the NFL next year) but had to make due with redshirt freshamn RT Cameron Fleming and LG David Yankey Three spots on the line are all new starters. At receiver, Stanford lost top receivers Doug Baldwin and Ryan Whalen. In their place, the Cardinal will start Sr. Chris Owusu and Sr. Griff Whalen. Owusu has decent size (6’2 200 lbs.) but not the best hands, capable playmaker. Unfortunately, he has also suffered a number of injuries that have slowed him down this year. His yards per reception have dropped from 18.43 to 15.84 to 14.19 since 2009. When healthy, Owusu is Stanford’s biggest playmaker
Griff Whalen is a walk-on, but he is Luck’s roommate and is one of those collegiate receivers that manages to help his team win. At 6’1 185 lbs. and lacking top end speed, he squeezes out every bit his talent. Far from the talent Andrew Luck had surrounding him in 2010. With that Andrew Luck managed to have his best season. He is ready for the NFL.
champion64 - January 11, 2012
Most of us watch football, as opposed to reading about it.
RyanBr - January 11, 2012 via Android app
Once again, you’re doing nothing but listing random crap and passing it off as evidence. Your half-assed scouting report of the WR’s don’t matter. The only thing that does is the production, and the fact that Luck often didn’t have to make many difficult passes as his WR’s were either wide open, or made difficult catches.
Just because they graduated 3 linemen last year doesn’t indicate that the line sucked, as you put it. But the fact that they have 2 players that are going potentially in the top 15, and the fact that they gave up the fewest sacks in all the Pac 10 along with being ranked 2nd in rushing(only being behind the obvious front-runners of Oregon) indicates that they performed very well and did the job regardless of their individual shortcomings which is all that matters
And that is exactly what you are doing. You’re looking at each individual player and their situations and criticizing, ignoring the fact that despite being new starters, or being supposedly too slow, or supposedly only being of average size, they were effective at their jobs which is the only thing that’s important.
I hate to pile on people, and I have always agreed with you in regards to McCoy and a few other things, but at this point you are talking out of your ass and your arguments and conjecture are getting quite ridiculous. It’s so asinine that you have no right to get butthurt as people get tired of it and call you out.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 11, 2012
If you provided a link it would go far to help your credibility. BTW, this reads like a preseason evaluation, before we really know what the line would be like.
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
Except for the Colts, but Manning is a freak of nature.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
Colt was playing for a Texas and Griffin played for Baylor not exactly the same programs.
Brocolis154033 - January 10, 2012 via mobile
And he still broke NCAA records.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
You think Flutie was a better QB than Kosar? And Griffin better than Luck?
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Flutie wasn’t as good as Kosar. That’s entirely irrelevant to whether Griffin will be better than Luck.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
He is not.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Flutie won the Heisman over Kosar, that was the analogy being used
champion64 - January 10, 2012
And it’s still entirely irrelevant to whether or not Griffin will be better than Luck.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Not that he is infallible but here is Mel Kuiper saying he can fit in any system. As I said somewhere else, Shurmur had a boner when someone mentioned RG3. He’s definitely on the radar. You don’t win a Heisman at Baylor without having some serious skills.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7418857
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
How do you know he had a boner?
SBP - January 9, 2012
Seriously do you have a BoneDar?
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
I do, and don’t make me use it.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
I don’t think you’ll need to here. At least I HOPE you don’t need to use it here..
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Exactly.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Please note, I’m just giving you a rough time. Thanks for the link.
SBP - January 9, 2012
I know, I thought it was funny.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Yeah. I didn’t think I needed to explain myself. If they like him, they draft him. Thought that was pretty self explanatory.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
I would be OK with this. I would rather take Griffin
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
My dream… OOOH I love that.
johnf34 - January 9, 2012
This is over estimating the value of our 4th overall pick. Fair value according to the chart would be there third. For their second they could move up to the third spot.
BrownsFanRegina - January 9, 2012
People overpay for QBs. Take a look at what San Diego traded to move from Number 3 to Number 2 to pick a QB in 1998. It was comparable to what he is saying here.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 9, 2012
Flynn is going to get a bank thrown at him. And I’m glad it won’t be us.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Yeah, I heard Clayton say the other day it was gonna be in the range of 60 million!
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
I have a hard time believing that. Cassell got a ton of money but he started for a year. I can’t think of a comparable situation to Flynn, who is basically an unknown with one very good game and one pretty good game. See Colt McCoy’s starts against the Pats and Jets last year. Two games do not make a great QB. In fact, see Ryan Leaf’s first two starts. Seriously. He looked great.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 9, 2012
But Brett Favre, Kolb…
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
I don’t know if it’s gonna turn out to be true or not. But, it seems John Clayton is usually pretty reliable.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Never trust an alien.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Especially one with a pony tail.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Remember, Kolb got 63 million. This was after being traded for DRC and a second round pick!
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Kolb had a lot more than two good games. He looked very good filling in for McNabb in 3 (?) games the year before last, and looked very good filling in for Vick for several games last year.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 10, 2012
He was actually pretty bad when he first filled in for McNabb. Regardless, the 63 million still seems pretty ridiculous.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
Wrong on that one. From Sept. 30, 2009 Philly Inquirer.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 10, 2012
So you’re totally ignoring that I said when he “first” filled in for McNabb. He was 17 of 34 for 144 yards with no touchdowns and 4 interceptions.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
Against the Ravens in a game he hadn’t prepared for.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
Wouldn’t Matt Schaub be a pretty good comp?
woodsmeister - January 10, 2012
Six years, 48 million.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
And that was in ’07 I think.
A lot of QB’s have signed since then, so I assume the price would have gone up.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
60 mil for a 7th round draft pick who plays in a great system? What could possibly go wrong?
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Sounds either unsinkable or too big to fail.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
McCoy Texas completion rate 70.3 yards 13253 TD 112 INT 45 QB rating 155.0
Griffin Baylor completion rate 69.5 Yards 10366 TD 78 INT 17 QB rating 160.5
Same type of quarterback in style.
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Yes, clearly which is why Colt was drafted late in the third round and Griffin has people fighting over him in the top 5. Exactly the same.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Not saying Griffin isn’t better, but his stats are the same, so you cant judge solely on college stats is my point
champion64 - January 9, 2012
WTF?! Actually, MY point was you can’t just judge by college stats! YOU said “I mean his stats are much like McCoy’s out of college why would you draft what you already have”
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
HE DOESNT TAKE ALOT OF SNAPS UNDER CENTER LIKE McCOY, he threw alot of short passes like McCoy, the systems they played in were similar, stats are similar, TALENTS ARE NOT similiar, but I feel they already have a quarterback that can do similar things to Grifffin and it does not work in the NFL although GRIFFIN DOES IT BETTER
champion64 - January 9, 2012
WAT.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Be careful. If you question this guy you will also become a moron who knows nothing about football.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
The always infallible Champ64.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Yes, you can tell by the things he says he is smarter than us morons.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Griffin has more ability, but I think they play a simliar game. We already know that the game McCoy plays is not winning many games in the NFL. Griffin plays the same type of game, improvising when it breaks down. Griffin is much more talented than McCoy.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I think they need a quarterback that looks to extend the play. I think Griffin relies too much on his ability to run with the ball if the play breaks down.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
This has been refuted by many people who actually watched him play, but keep saying it.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
It has not. He ran the ball alot in college, look at the stats
champion64 - January 10, 2012
He ran for 54 yards a game on 13 to 14 rushes a game. That is alot of running for a quarterback.
Griffin ran 14 times a game for 54 yards a game
Luck ran 3 times a game for 11 yards a game
Barkley ran 2 times a game for 2 yards a game
Jones ran 2 times a game for -2 yards a game
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Of course there will be no reply to this
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Yeah I’m totally shocked that Griffin who has sprinter speed ran more than Barkley or Jones who are statues and Luck who can move OK but its not his forte.
14 times a game is not that many out of what 65-80 plays a game? Also, a QB that can pick up 15 yards on 3rd and 10 when a play breaks down is awesome. I’ve seen too many do it to us and it sucks. It also requires someone who would otherwise rush the passer or drop into coverage to sit in no mans land and spy the QB essentially eliminating a defender. Also fast QBs neutralize over pursuit and are a natural constrainer of the defense.
The problem you have is that you’ve stereotyped running QB with a QB who can’t throw well and has to depend on his feet – sort of like Tebow. Griffin is an excellent thrower, probably the best in the draft AND he has speed. The speed is just a bonus on top of having an accurate, well-armed QB.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Running against boys in college is completely different than running out of the pocket against an NFL defense. 90 percent of the starters in college (who he is running out of the pocket against) will never be drafted nor be invited to a NFL camp, it is a world of difference. Look what happen to Vick and McCoy both of who were running out of the pocket when they got hurt.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
That’s what everyone was saying about Tebow and he’s in the divisional round of the playoffs now.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Griffin is on the same running level as Mike Vick was in college.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
Is there any chance that H & H take a look at what a nightmare Tebow was to game plan for ,never knowing if the pass or the run was coming.That they may want to look at a more versatile QB one that can throw the ball deep,but you can also devise a game plan where he can get out of the pocket and give the secondary fits.
ctowndawgpound - January 10, 2012
Griffin played in an offense that called QB runs, the others did not.
I’m guessing that the Browns wouldn’t be calling many QB runs. You are getting your stats confused with the system.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Based on what?
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
That’s the game Ben Roethlisberger and Michael Vick play. They’ve won some games.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
He throws passes of all lengths, he has taken snaps from under center and his footwork was very good (from what I read somewhere today) and almost every college guy plays in that system nowadays, that’s why you don’t look at stats. They’re deceiving in college. You look at size, arm strength, accuracy, decision making, intelligence, and attitude. RG3 has all of them.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Isn’t it easier to be accurate and make better decisions in college?
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Well sure it is. But, you have to take that into account with every single player in the draft.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Not kickers, lol.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
You don’t want kickers who are accurate and make good decisions?
woodsmeister - January 10, 2012
Definitely that’s why you don’t evaluate on stats as much. These guys look for specific qualities that help them project a player as NFL capable. Colt had great stats in college but still fell to the third round. Ken Dorsey was a phenomenal college QB who barely got drafted. There are tons of them like that.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
So it’s based on what you see in their play, which being in college, makes it still a huge, “Who Knows?”
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
That’s why they hold the Combine. You can’t just judge by stats and game tape.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
Yeah but 40 times and bench press don’t help much either.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
you’re right. It’s just another way of measuring the bodies through the different activities.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
They take those results and “combine” them with the players performance in college.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Even the Combine numbers aren’t definite. Man, being a scout must suck
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
It’s always gonna be a “who knows.” There are gonna be Couch’s, Russell’s, and Leaf’s. But there will also be Brady’s and Warner’s
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Do I detect Couch slamming? Best prepare yourself. The Dawg Nuts is stirring in his lair at the sound of Couch bashing!
Off-the-Chain - January 10, 2012 via mobile
Couch was the best of those three. He had nothing around him at all. NOT saying he was great
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Dawg Nuts is angry…
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Hahaha. Sorry bro.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
Couch didn’t work out because the organization completely mismanaged our initial construction of an OL and subsequently did nothing in the draft to make up for it. Despite all that, he still had some level of success.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
I agree
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Couch looked great in theory, but turned out to not be so functional.
Kimble_79 - January 10, 2012
(for collapsing)
Except that his O-line was about as strong as this guy:
There’s also an analogy to be made to his receivers with this:
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Haha
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
I also think the pressure and expectations put on him by Browns fans and the media were ridiculous. If you look back on him now we would love to have that kind of QB play.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
I’m sure it did, I was just busting Dawg Nuts’ nuts
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
You can also look at stuff like, do they deliver the ball to the receiver in stride, do they throw to spots or just a guy standing wide open, can they go through a progression, how do they handle pressure, stuff like that.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
That’s what they all see in Luck, correct?
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
I think so, I also think they like that he reads the defense at the line and chooses a play (a la Manning) and he plays from under center more than most college QBs.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
These are two strikes against RG3 since he didn’t do that in college. But he seems to have the intelligence to make the adjustments.
dawgtribe - January 10, 2012
Almost no one does that stuff in college.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
You can also factor in how he had less talent around him at Baylor than Colt had at Texas and still performed the way he did. You can argue that RG3 did more with less this year.
I’m usually against taking a heisman QB. They usually have so much talent around them that makes them look better than they are. They usually aren’t successful in the NFL. I have a feeling that RG3 will be different.
dawgtribe - January 10, 2012
McCoy took a lot of snaps under Center at Texas? News to me. But it must be right because he used all caps to say it.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 9, 2012
CAPSLOCK – because it totally makes you sound, like, smarter and stuff.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
IT DOES!!
champion64 - January 10, 2012
You may want to start reading your posts before submitting them because the things you say are completely ludicrous.
Off-the-Chain - January 10, 2012 via mobile
Like?
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Like pretty much everything.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
I’ve never even looked at his stats, I’m just going off of what I’ve seen with my eyeballs and what’s been written about him. He’s a 5 tool player with high intelligence, athletic IQ and solid work ethic.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Where’re the other two tools? lol
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Sorry I meant 5 tools plus those other things. Size, speed, arm strength, accuracy, and touch.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Colt lead the Longhorns to #4 ranking in 2008 and #2 ranking in 2009
Griffin lead Baylor to a 7-6 record in 2010 and a #15 ranking in 2011
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Griffin should be taken higher than McCoy, my point is college stats dont mean alot. I just have a hunch that they wont take him, because they are some what similar in games
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Then why do you keep using college stats to try to back up your strangely obsessive assertion that RG3 is a bust?
Adrock2099 - January 9, 2012
I am saying that if you go on college stats they are similar. I dont see them as talent wise simliar, but the games they played were. SO why select what you are have. LUCK played a different game, as did Barkley
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Okay, so you just said they are not similar talent wise. Immediately afterwards you said why draft what you already have. However, I’m the moron.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
you are not reading nor do you understand football
champion64 - January 9, 2012
You’re right. You actually said “why select what you are have.” And I have no idea what that means.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
You have poor reading comprehension. You also construct thoughts poorly.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Why don’t you sit the next couple plays out, Champ.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
You’re on a roll.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Who evaluates on their teams records? It’s Baylor for peets sake. Colt McCoy played on teams that were completely loaded with talent.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Wow. You’ve really come onboard the RGIII boat. You went from warming up to the idea of drafting him to pointing out how good he is. I will be pissed if they let RG3 get away.
rdy - January 9, 2012 via iPhone app
I’ve been on the bandwagon since after the Oklahoma game. I saw him in his first game of the year, thought he was a flash in the pan, then I heard some ridiculous stat from the first month of the season that he had more TDs than incomplete passes and thought he deserved a look. It’s true though, the more you read about him, the more to like. A lot of it too is because Colt didn’t play as well as we hoped he would.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Completely irrelevant.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Stats =/= style.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Incorrect.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
I NEVER SAID RG3 is a bust, I NEVER SAID THAT
champion64 - January 9, 2012
A bust!? How can you say that the draft hasn’t even happened. Way to jump to conclusions.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
did you read what I typed?
champion64 - January 9, 2012
Yeah I was being a smart ass sorry lol.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Please stop with the caps lock. We are all able to read small print.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
RGIII brings a much stronger arm and much more speed than McCoy. That said, there is nothing that suggests he’ll be better at being an NFL QB – reading defenses, leadership, avoiding mistakes, etc. The sad thing is that McCoy really may be able to develop into a better QB over time. That said, the talents mentioned in the first sentence give RGIII a higher ceiling. That’s the evaluation Heckert, Holmgren, and Shurmer will have to make.
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
RGIII seems to be more intelligent than McCoy though. Which alludes to being able read defenses better.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
School intelligent, sure, by a mile, but I’m not sure about football intelligent. I won’t sell McCoy short there, he’s been put in a pretty tough spot and did seem to improve in handling the O (just not in executing it). RGIII seem s really good (I’m in favor of him at 4, but not trading up), but he forces some throws. We’ll see.
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
I agree with this.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Richardson looks so awesome tonight. /sarc.
Also, did some awful parents with the last name Badger seriously name their child Honey? Pretty sure in some states, that’s considered poor parenting.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Richardson is falling, no question. I just don’t understand why some people still believe good players succeed on bad teams. Good teams make good players. A good RB is a product of a good line and an effective passing threat.
And I agree. I’ve never been so sick of the Honey Badger meme as I am tonight.
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
Wait, it’s only a mem? Is it Matthieu?
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
haha
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
_Shut up.SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Look at the pic above. The Honey badger is second from left.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
I know who Tyrann Matthieu is.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Who’s the guy on the far right?
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
Montee Ball.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Oh, from Wisconsin. He looked good in the Rose Bowl. Thanks.
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
That’s all Wis O – line. Absolutely none of it is Montee Ball. People have known that about Wisconsin RBs for years.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Their Oline is good. But, I still think Ball is pretty good too. He said he’s going back to school didn’t he?
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
Dunno. Could’ve cared less. There was a reason Clay did so well in college, yet ended up on a practice squad.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Yeah he’s going back. The thing that scares me about Ball, other than what SB already said is that he had to lose 20 lbs to play this well. I don’t want a guy who constantly has to worry about his weight to play well.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Yeah, they had some beef up front. Good OLines make good RBs, but their QB was pretty good too, helped keep Ds honest.
pdxtribefan - January 9, 2012
Heh, “Beef up front”
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
You really have theme going tonight.
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Its the BoneDar.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
HAHA
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
Alabama is starting to be the same way and could be viewed the same way. Some amazing O-Lines. Ingram could end up busting and if Richardson becomes the next Cedric Benson (which I don’t think he will), they could get a reputation like Wisconsin.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Sorry, yeah it’s that Mathieu kid.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
Maybe I’m crossing some line but, ask Casey Anthony about bad parenting.
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
Yeah, let’s keep it to football.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
My perfect scenario, we get Blackmon, and somehow Colt becomes a combination of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Rodgers, and Tebow. Tebow for the skill in defeating the Evils of Pitts
macdowellm03 - January 9, 2012
If we are making stuff up, I will say my dream scenario is winning the Super Bowl.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
My dream scenario is winning a billion dollars off of a parlay bet that involves the Browns, Indians, and Cavs winning their respective championships 5 years in a row.
Adrock2099 - January 10, 2012
Just a billion? I imagine the odds would be much higher than that.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Yeah, since we’re dreaming I would make it a trillion so I could afford to buy all three franchises.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
I would also buy the Steelers and then sell them to some city in Canada as well.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
Brilliant!
North Coast Flea - January 11, 2012
London.
Brownie's Year - January 11, 2012
Whoa. That’s not nice to do to LondonBrown.
JustBob - January 11, 2012
We would have to sacrifice a few of our own to get the Steelers off the continent.
Brownie's Year - January 11, 2012
Antarctica would be a good destination.
North Coast Flea - January 11, 2012
How about South America where the fans kill players for losing?
Brownie's Year - January 11, 2012
Kabul
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
I would actually move them to LA, but allow the city of Pittsburgh to keep the colors and the name, and then bomb-bared BTSC telling them that the “Real Steelers” moved and their Super Bowl wins mean nothing and belong to the LA Sharks.
Hilarity will ensue.
Bernie19Kosar - January 12, 2012
LA Sharks? Do you know something I don’t?
Brownie's Year - January 12, 2012
Best. Idea. Ever!
North Coast Flea - January 12, 2012
LOL, was that a USFL team?
HenryDawg - January 12, 2012
I would only be betting a penny.
Adrock2099 - January 11, 2012
This game is just as boring as the first time they played. Might be worse considering LSU sucks.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Lacey just ripped off two first downs.
Man. Richardson is SOOOOOOO GOOD.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
The hell is Mark Ingram doing there?
Oh wait, sucking as a 1st round draft pick. Lol.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
That was a dumb move by the Saints.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
You know it was bad when Pierre Thomas outplays him
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
RB in the first round is dumb?
HenryDawg - January 9, 2012
You don’t say?
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
Especially when you trade back in to the first to get one.
Brownie's Year - January 9, 2012
When you already have Pierre Thomas, a not-so-bad RB, Chris Ivory, a guy who showed potential to be good, and you then sign Sproles. The ingram pick really, really made no sense.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 10, 2012
And they gave up a first and a second for him
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
Patriots fleeced in that trade.
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
It’s a wonder anyone still trades with them.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
You would think other teams are tired of them being good.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
Courtney Upshaw looks EXACTLY like the kind of OLB that can rush the passer the browns are lacking….he looks like he is going to land right in the middle of our 4th and 22nd picks though
brandeezy09 - January 9, 2012
I’m actually surprised people are pegging him that high. I think he will be underwhelming at the combine (short, not very athletic, etc). I actually think he is a 2nd-3rd round guy, but I love him. Always makes plays.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
I hope someone drops the crystal this year.
SpecialBrownie - January 9, 2012
That was a defensive clinic by Alabama.
RyanBr - January 9, 2012
It was an awful game by the SEC.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
I thought it was some awfully good defense.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
It was awfully awful football.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
Great defense. However, Jordan Jefferson is really bad.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
Maybe just offensive offense
The Licensed Pessimist - January 10, 2012
I’m in this camp.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Alabama looked like they were on steroids. It was a masacre.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
The coaching mis-match was very, very apparent.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Really easy to look good on defense when you are playing a God Awful offense.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
223 comments and maybe 16 original comments? It’s definitely the offseason and we are going on long tangents about nothing.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Good thing you started drinking, huh?
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
What else do we have to do, but talk shit
champion64 - January 10, 2012
That’s saying something, coming from King Tangent himself. By the way, nice work over at BTSC.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
thanks.
I just came onto this thread for the first time and was thinking “holy shit, what did I miss”.
It’s not a criticism at all, I like the random tangents about nothing.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Racism, DUIs, and Hitler?
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
And...
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Can’t … resist… reccing. Recwhore.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
I hate you.
notthatnoise - January 11, 2012
whore
bross09 - January 11, 2012
I think we’re probably better off using our top picks to draft a WR, a RT and a safety than a QB. If the philosophy of the leadership is to be patient and build a strong team over time, in my opinion drafting a QB high this year makes little sense.
I like to think about it along the following lines.
Scenario 1: we spend our high draft picks this year (perhaps needing to trade up) on a QB.
• What’s the best-case? To me, it’s something like we saw this year in Carolina with Cam Newton. You end the season without a lot of wins (the supporting cast isn’t there yet), but you have a franchise quarterback and a ton of hope heading into the next season.
• Ok, so now try to envision the worst-case scenario: spending most of the season finding out that your much-hyped QB is a bust, first putting his failure to execute down to learning a new system but finally having to admit he’s not as good as you hoped. Colt gets subbed in toward the end of the season, you lose a bunch of games and are in a pickle looking to the next year’s draft. Do you draft yet another QB high, or do you address other needs? Fan frustration reaches a peak.
Scenario 2: we pick a WR, RT, S or other supporting-cast choices instead of QB.
• The best-case scenario: two or three of the top picks turn out to be winners. We also bring in a veteran QB familiar with the WCO to help Colt (and to replace him if he continues to struggle — sort of a Hasselbeck-type guy). Our QB’s protection improves, and he gets an excellent new receiving target. Little gets better, and our TEs have a solid year. Colt gets comfortable with the system (about time!), and it looks like all the pieces are finally falling into place. We don’t necessarily make the playoffs, but the Browns are clearly a team on the rise.
• The worst-case here: only one or two of our high picks turn out to be good, and even they clearly aren’t going to be stars. Meanwhile, the QB we could have traded up to draft does well in someone else’s offense. Colt continues to perform poorly, and there’s a lot of uncertainty everywhere. We finish with another 4-12 or similar record, and people are starting to question the leadership. Everyone’s frustrated.
This is getting long, so I’ll stop. But in my opinion, both the best-case and the worst-case are better under scenario 2 than scenario 1. Scenario 1, moreover, does not in my mind comport well with a long-term building philosophy. Feel free to disagree or elaborate – I may be wrong – but this is how I think about it at the moment, at least.
batard - January 10, 2012
Until Heckert fills some holes in Free Agency Feb-Mar we really wont know what we need.
Red-Right-88 - January 10, 2012
Very true…what we do in free agency will likely say a lot about our draft strategy.
batard - January 10, 2012
Give me an example of a team that picked a RT or Safety with one of the first 5 picks in the draft and went from 4 or so wins to the playoffs the next year. Now see if you can do the same for QB. I think you’ll find that the latter scenario is more likely than the former. Maybe you can find something 10+ years ago but it is a totally different game now as rule changes have made the QB pre-eminent. You have to get that position right and I think that Holmgren knows it. I expect them to do something about QB this next off-season.
My point is that the best case if you pick a safety with pick 4 when your defense was already rated pretty high is that the next year you might win one more game. If you pick a QB with pick 4 with your offense rated just about dead last you are much more likely to improve as a team. The upside of picking a QB is higher. If you look at the worst case both pretty much suck. If you assume that you are going to have to trade all your picks to move up for a QB (or anything else for that matter) then that is a totally different thing. So you can’t compare trading all your picks to move up to get a QB to taking a Safety with the 4th pick… that isn’t an apples to apples comparison.
Brownsyup - January 10, 2012
I think we did it when we picked Thomas?
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Also agree with all this, but I think we’re in a can’t lose position, worst case scenario we solidify the best O Line in football with Kalil and if JT ever wants to retire, you have a franchise LT in waiting.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
I agree with the idea that having a franchise QB is critical in this league, perhaps moreso nowadays than a few years back, so I’m with you there. As far as records and drafts go, it’s relatively rare for teams to go from four or so wins to the playoffs, period. Cincy did that just this past year having chosen Green in the fourth spot and Dalton in the second round. Denver did the same this year, choosing Von Miller at #2, followed by a safety and an OT. Cam Newton helped Carolina improve from two wins to six. I’m having trouble finding any team in the past three years that has drafted a QB high and gone on to the playoffs…the closest I can find is the Jets taking Mark Sanchez in 2009 with the 5th pick (from the Browns) and making the playoffs that year. But the Jets were 9-7 the previous year and had just missed the playoffs, so that doesn’t really count. I’d actually be interested to see examples of where any team with a poor record picked a QB high and went to the playoffs the next year. I can’t really find a good one, but I haven’t looked that hard. It’s easier to find examples of bad teams that picked WRs and linemen and went on to the playoffs, but of course the past three years could be a fluke.
If we don’t pick a QB high, I wouldn’t expect us to take a safety with pick number 4. Clearly the offense needs addressing first, and I think it would be a toss-up between WR and RT, depending on who’s available. I’m just guessing, but that’s my take for now.
batard - January 10, 2012
If we took a QB high and started him we might lose even more games than this year, but that’s not the point, you have to project the talent out a few years. 2 years ago could you see Carolina as a playoff team? I bet you can picture it now though, maybe not even next year, but perhaps 2 years out.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
I think our defense wins us four games next year on its own. A rookie QB would be hard pressed to make us worse.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
Good point. With a new RE and LB I can see that.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
I would be stoked for that. Actually if our Special Teams don’t suck again, that’s probably at least a couple more.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
Colt pretty well played like a rookie this year anyways IMO. So I don’t think it would be much of a change.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
That would be perfect if whoever we pick becomes a good QB in two years…but I think it’s more prudent to build in other areas now, especially given that the jury is still out on Colt. If our supporting-cast picks didn’t pan out next year and Colt didn’t get better, we would of course lose a lot of games and be in a position to pull the trigger on a QB next year.
I’m just not convinced yet that taking a QB early is important for us in this draft. I’d like to be persuaded that it’s wise, but I haven’t heard a really compelling argument so far. It seems like a lot of people are just seduced by the obvious talents of RG3 & co (I’m not saying this is true of you, just in general).
batard - January 11, 2012
You want a convincing argument? Teams with good QBs and bad supporting casts win games. Teams with good supporting casts and bad QBs lose games. I would like to win games.
notthatnoise - January 11, 2012
Well, I think we can agree on at least one thing: that it’s best to have both a good QB and a good supporting cast.
I’m having trouble finding an example of a playoff team this year that has a good QB but bad supporting cast. Can you name one? On the other hand, look at the Broncos (Tebow’s not a great QB, although I love him for axing the Steelers), the Falcons, the Ratbirds and the Texans. All are playoff teams, and I think all can be said to have better supporting casts than QBs. I wouldn’t go so far to say any have “bad” QBs, though, so perhaps this doesn’t completely prove that a supporting cast is more important than a QB…
batard - January 11, 2012
I’m convinced we need a QB and that Colt isn’t going to get much better. However, I’m not sure that RG3 is the guy and I wouldn’t want to pick any of the other guys with our #4 pick. Maybe our #22 pick, but not #4.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
I agree with this.
champion64 - January 11, 2012
We said this last year. Experiment over.
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
Yep, we gave him a year. It didn’t work out. Time to move on. To me, there is nothing worse than keeping a mediocre QB on the team that plays well every once in a while. You need a QB that is good all the time.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
We can’t use the “jury is out on Colt” excuse anymore. He had all season to prove he can be the guy and he was underwhelming. Yes, he might make a leap with a full offseason, but if you have a shot at a guy that can be the franchise QB, you take him because we don’t have that right now.
Legoman0721 - January 12, 2012 via Android app
Would be a waste of a high pick. Too many other needs when we can fins a decent RT in the 3/4/5th.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
We would trade our pick before drafting a RT at number 4
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Why not take a WR with our top pick and then an RT with our second? But I could even see us taking a RT with the fourth pick — good OTs are incredibly valuable and hard to find.
batard - January 10, 2012
RTs can be found later.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Good point.
By the way, I just did some calculations and found the average draft position for a current NFL starting QB is middle of the second round. There are only a smattering of first-rounders who have lived up completely to the hype: guys like Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers and (choke) The Rapist. On the other hand, late-round QBs who have been successful are rarer, as you’d expect. There’s Brady, who was drafted in the 6th, and Romo, who was undrafted. Brees was taken in the second.
Most of the starting QBs picked in the first round are just average. These dynamics are probably similar for other positions, though, so I’m not sure if it all amounts to much other than to reinforce the obvious: picking a QB high is quite a gamble, irrespective of all the other factors that go into the choice.
batard - January 10, 2012
Did you do it for good QBs? There are a lot of middle-late round guys playing right now (Cassell, Hasselbeck for example) that are very average. These are not guys that are likely to win your super bowls.
This is not a good method because it gives weight to a late rounder like Cassel, just for the sake that he is starting.
Instead, I would rather look at what B19K came up with: about 50% of QBs in the 1st round pan out, whereas less than 10% (I forget if it is 4% or 7% but somewhere in that range) after that pan out.
Sure, you can occasionally get a Hasselbeck in the 4th, it’s a crapshoot.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Good points all. I might be game to do a little analysis along these lines. How should we define “panning out,” though? Any suggestions? What if we got all 1st-round QBs drafted between 1995 and 2005. Should we say they “pan out” if five years later they are still playing for the same team that drafted them and have started, say, 60 games?
In some sense you can say a pick pans out if the QB becomes the team’s starting QB. But there would be a huge bias there, because I think we can agree that teams who pick QBs high are likely to start them at some point.
That said, the numbers won’t tell the whole story. They never do in football.
batard - January 11, 2012
I don’t know what you define as panning out…but whether its winning a SB, deep playoff runs, pro bowl appearances, or just being a good starter, the numbers are going to show you, you are much more likely to get that guy in the first than all the rest of the rounds combined.
bross09 - January 11, 2012
Naturally so…what I’m really interested in is what the likelihood is that a high QB pick will turn into a franchise QB. In other words, if we took someone like RG3, what’s the chance he (independent of all kinds of other important variables) will pan out? What’s the chance he will be the next Cam Newton versus the next Christian Ponder?
Obviously you can’t use statistics like these to decide whether to draft people or not – that would be stupid – but they could inform a decision about how you want to approach it strategically. In other words, if you found that 85% of LBs and 72% of WRs picked with the top 10 picks have long, successful careers, while only 48% of QBs do, it’d be interesting. Useful? Maybe not so much, but I’m sort of into it as a purely academic exercise.
batard - January 11, 2012
probably around 50/50
bross09 - January 11, 2012
You don’t want the average, you want the median in this case. 32 is a pretty small sample size, it’s very susceptible to outliers. One seventh round pick (Brady) can skew the average a ton. The median is much better in this case, and my guess is it’s a lot higher.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
The median is between Rodgers at 24 and Brees at 31. They are 16th and 17th highest QBs picked that are starters. I believe this is correct (just did it in my head). Still, half of the starters were 1st rounders.
bross09 - January 10, 2012
Right, that’s about what I would expect.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
Before I started figuring this out in my head, I figured Rodgers would probably be around the median.
bross09 - January 11, 2012
I lied. The median is between 18-22. I forgot about Tebow and Stafford.
bross09 - January 11, 2012
I just made a quick spreadsheet on this. It looks like you’re right, although I may have defined “starting” QB differently, so correct me if I’m off-base (for some teams without an established starter, it’s difficult to decide who to choose). I’m finding that the median for a starting QB is the 20th pick. The average (mean) is about the 63rd pick, but as you say it’s the median that’s really relevant here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnXugB8J_7I3dEM4aGlQby1BSE9fM2ZESEFPZHlwY3c
batard - January 11, 2012
That’s pretty neat. I can’t make changes to the sheet myself, so it’s hard for me to do, but it would be interesting to see with just the “established” QBs. That’s what we want after all. I’m not sure how that would effect the results.
notthatnoise - January 11, 2012
I just ran that suggestion through the spreadsheet and found it does affect the results. I defined “established” as a QB who has started for three full seasons (48 games) for the same team. I made exceptions for Mark Sanchez, who has started 47 games, and Mike Vick, who’s clearly an established QB.
The results: the median pick is 11, and the average is 50th. This reinforces that the better QBs tend to go early. There’s one flaw in this analysis, though, which is the small sample size – to my own surprise, only 11 of the 32 teams have a an established QB under this definition.
batard - January 11, 2012
How many of the 11 teams were in or near the playoffs?
Dawg Nuts - January 11, 2012
7, by my count. The remaining four had at least .500 records and were close.
Playoff teams that didn’t have an established QB under the above definition: Denver, Atlanta, Detroit, Houston and Cincy. They were all wildcards.
batard - January 11, 2012
What does this show?
You could argue that it shows better QBs make all the difference in teams making the playoffs. On the other hand, you could also argue it merely means that better teams hold onto their QBs for longer.
Even if these numbers were statistically defensible (they’re not because of the small sample), it’s impossible to say which.
batard - January 11, 2012
That’s what I figured, and it further shows why we need to pull the trigger on a potential franchise QB. Even though Atlanta, Detroit ,and Houston didn’t fit the definition, I’d gladly sacrifice a testicle to have Ryan, Stafford, or Schaub as our starting QB.
Dawg Nuts - January 11, 2012
In a certain sense, though, this actually argues for the opposite – that we should delay pulling the trigger on a QB in this draft.
Here’s the logic:
If you stick with Colt for a year and find out he’s your franchise QB, you have an established QB under the above criteria in two years. If he can’t cut it next year, it takes four years, since you (hopefully) draft your QBOTF in the following draft, giving him a three-year window to succeed.
If you draft your QB this year, it takes 3 years for him to become established in the above criteria. If he doesn’t work out after two years, it (hopefully) takes five years from now.
In other words, would you rather have an established QB in two or four years OR in three or five years? Of course, you are correct that we should draft a QB this year if we assume most good QBs come in the early picks (Colt didn’t, so why are we wasting time?). On that basis, getting there in three years is better than four.
I’m probably over-thinking this.
And honestly despite what I’ve said before, I wouldn’t be dismayed if we took RG3 with #4 and a WR perhaps later in the first, with an RT in the following rounds and perhaps a safety mixed in there somewhere. The one thing I wouldn’t like to see is us trading up to get RG3 and not being able to get a first-round WR etc.
batard - January 11, 2012
I think the overall sentiment is that we all liked Colt’s leadership and other qualities and wanted him to succeed, but he is turning out to be exactly what he should have been per NFL teams…a mediocre QB that was a 3rd rounder.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
I think this nails it. He barely flashed enough potential and seemed average most of them time. That said, if we start him next year with more experience I wouldn’t be surprised if he showed significant improvement.
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
This wouldn’t be my (or yours it sounds) idea situation, but if we can’t find a QB before season starts, I wouldn’t necessarily cry over this if the picks were used on other good talent.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
Interesting
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
I think you should use Shaub instead of Yates and Manning instead of Orlovsky. You can’t use 3rd stringers to make the sort of evaluation you’re trying to make. You should try to use the team’s most established starter where ever possible. For us that’s Colt, not Seneca even though Seneca ended the season.
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
on a sour note.
JustBob - January 13, 2012
My point about RG3 is I dont think that Heckert and Holmgren see him as the franchise quarterback of the future. I could be wrong, but I dont see it. I think he is a great talent, but to be selected at the number 4 pick, as HECKERT SAID you cant screw that pick up, and there is too much unknown about Griffin who had one great year. He did absolutely no pre snap changing of the plays. Here is a quote from the pre draft analysis of Robert Griffin:
Griffin has a great arm and delivers passes to all parts of the field. Like most current college systems, Baylor’s offense called for Griffin to take a play and go with it. There wasn’t a lot of audibles or pre-snap adjustments. Griffin knew where he wanted to throw the ball and did so. If he didn’t, he was allowed to pull the ball and make plays with his feet. This will not be allowed in any NFL game plan, as to eliminate turnovers and potential for injury.
One of the knocks you’ll often read about Griffin is about his size — listed at 6-foot-2 and 220 pounds. That’s a similar size to Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers, but he doesn’t take hits like Griffin does. Because of that, you’ll always wonder about Griffin’s long-term health.
So I am not that far off. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS NOT A GREAT PLAYER but there are real concerns over his play to be drafted at number 4.
It is like Redright88 said, until the Browns fill some holes in Free agency we have no idea what we are looking at as far as a draft, yes including me, THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Rodgers DOES take some hits. he has been one of the most sacked QBs over the last few years.
Gabe Durrant - January 10, 2012
I think they mean in the open field with guys running at full speed instead of coming off a block at the line of scrimmage.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I like RGIII a lot. I think he is a great kid, immensely talented, great athlete. But I’m also concerned about his size and style of play for the AFC North. One of the big things he will have to learn is how to stay in the pocket more and let the assets that exist to protect him do their jobs. If his height ends up being shorter at the combine that will be decisive for me. The size of the linemen in this division and most of the NFL make it necessary that a QB have some height to see down field. I think his speed and agility will help him move to the lanes that enable him to see but overall that need to move around makes him harder to block for and will open him up to more devastating hits. Overall, I do not think he is an ideal fit for the Browns but he is a definite upgrade from what we have now. I firmly believe that Browns have to do something at QB for next season. If that something is picking RGIII with the 4th pick I’m OK with it. I’m not, however, in the camp of moving up to take him. I’d move up to take Luck but not RGIII.
Brownsyup - January 10, 2012
I agree with this and it was very well written, Except I am not sure I want RG3. If they do select him I think he sits and watches McCoy for at least a year and Wallace is gone. I am in the camp that the quarterback they are looking for is a quarterback that is paid to manage the game and throw the ball. NOT a quarterback that improvises like Griffin. I could be wrong, but that is my estimation of what they are looking for. They would get that with Luck, but I think that ship has sailed. Griffin will make some team happy.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I hope Redskins or the Dolphins do trade up to get RG3
champion64 - January 10, 2012
If the trade up is with us I’m in your camp. I don’t want tos ee them do it with Min and give them al their loot.
johnf34 - January 10, 2012
We shouldn’t have to give more than a 3rd or 4th rounder to move up 1 or 2 spots, but they may try to bend us over the barrel knowing we want our QBOTF.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
I thought you said McCoy needs another year? He hasn’t hit his ceiling. He needs to be surrounded with more players. Why spend a top 4 draft pick on Griffin if that is the case with McCoy?
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I may have said that, and it may be true. I’m not claiming to be an NFL scout. My point is that if H&H don’t think Colt is the guy then RG3 is the best option. If he is the guy, then keep Colt and build around him. I don’t have to make that choice, they do.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
He may be a great option. I dont know. It seems to me today you need the big strong armed smart quarterbacks who stay to throw the ball. Griffin is probably big enough, but will he stand there to throw? Look he can be another Rodgers or Brees I dont know, but they both played in a little different system than Griffin in college and part of Griffins success was his ability to run. In the NFL running QB’s dont last long.
Colt McCoy honestly in my opinion is not big enough. Griffin seems to be marginal, but he is bigger and faster than McCoy so yes it would be an upgrade it seems.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I think he’ll measure taller and bigger at the combine than what we have heard.
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
He actually looks as tall as Luck
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Luck is supposed to be 6’4
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Do you think Heckert and Holmgren don’t see him that way because you don’t or because you actually have some reason to believe their feelings are that way?
Roger Dorn - January 10, 2012
I heard Holmgren say his ideal was a guy who throws the ball and stands in there to throw the ball. Robert Griffin did not always do that in college. Whether they see him that way or not I am not 100 percent sure It is my opinion and not based on fact that they dont see him as the pocket passer they covet. My opinion is that Robert Griffin is not a pocket type passer not is he a extend the play out the pocket passer first, he looks to run when the play breaks down more than he should. Whether he can be taught to be more of a pocket passer is the question. Guys who break the pocket and run generally have not faired well. There are a few exceptions (Tarkenton, Cunningham, YOUNG being the best, McNabb who also was very good but was 255 lbs, and Vick) <———they were the exceptions and all of them very good. I was thinking Holmgren was looking for more of a thrower, like Favre, Manning, Brady, Rotheisberger, Brees. That is all that I am saying.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Maybe they coveted Griffin all along and they feel they can get him. I am not sure. We will see. If I express an opinion on a quarterback it is not liked, so I dont get to bothered by the crap, that is typed. With our field type and weather conditions, MY OPINION, is that you need a strong armed quarterback that makes very little mistakes and controls the ball. (Otto Graham, Frank Ryan, Bernie Kosar) they were the only winners we had here and all of them were pocket passers. Pittsburgh too, had Bradshaw and Rotheisberger same type of quarterbacks pocket guys. Cincinnati same thing (Anderson, Esiason, Palmer) all winners but were pocket passers. It seems like to me in the AFC north with the conditions and the type grind it out play that type of quarterbacking has worked best. Look when Cincinnati went to Akili Smith and how he faired in our division, he blew.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
The problem that I have with you stating your “opinion” is that you constantly use made up conjecture about H&H in an attempt to give your almost completely unfounded argument legs. Also that you state the exact same thing over and over AND OVER AND OVER again. It got old like a month ago. We get it, you don’t like him. Congratulations. We’ve all heard your argument and many of us don’t agree with it.
Adrock2099 - January 10, 2012
You liked McCoy now you want RG3 which is it? and I have been right all year about McCoy even though the vast majority disagreed with me. I dont see anyone saying I was right. It is just jump on the next thing I say. You are more interested in putting someone down then listing your valid opinion.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Wut?
Adrock2099 - January 10, 2012
I really do mean that. What on Earth are you talking about? When did I say anything about McCoy? And since when does at one point liking Colt McCoy mean that now liking RG3 is somehow invalid?
And yes, you are correct. No one is saying you are correct; it’s because you aren’t. No one is just automatically jumping all over you no matter what you say. You keep posting the exact same statements over and over again, all related to RG3 and how we shouldn’t pick him. Post about something else for a change, and I’d be willing to bet you won’t get “jumped on.”
I’m not putting you down at all. I’m not calling you stupid, I just find this RG3 jihad that you’ve been on to be very annoying and off putting.
Adrock2099 - January 10, 2012
RG3 points are just opinions. Let mine be if you dont agree with them
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Well, again, you weren’t just stating opinions, you were passing off totally made up BS as fact to backup your opinion.
And also, if you don’t want people to comment on your opinions it would probably be wise to keep them to yourself, especially on a football forum and super-duper especially when you repeat them over and over again.
Adrock2099 - January 11, 2012
And over and over and over and over…
North Coast Flea - January 11, 2012
Yeah I know, I know. I’m done.
Adrock2099 - January 11, 2012
Not really. If you were right about the hyperbole you toss up about McCoy we would have cut him by now.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Point is I said McCoy isn’t cutting it and we need a quarterback. Was told I was just a McCoy hater. Said Holmgren and Shurmur are not completely behind McCoy , was right, but crapped on in the comments. All facts
champion64 - January 10, 2012
This is not a fact. You have yet to provide one shred of evidence to back this up that wasn’t you trying to pull out something that wasn’t there in a quote about something else.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Coming from the guy who started crying to NTN because everyone was reading his comments wrong because his comments were really opinionated. Pfft.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
I’m suddenly reminded of Dawgz n Hogz or however he spelled it.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
I believe you two are idiots. THE FACTS ARE THAT I SAID THEM as opinions and they turned out to be what happen, That is the fact morons. You crapped on me for saying them. Colt is not the Quarterback of the future and I my opinion is that RG3 will not be selected at number 4 because as Heckert said at the number 4 pick you HAVE TO HAVE A CANT MISS. RG3 is great but not a can’t miss. The two analyst on ESPN Kiper and McShay have RG3 going 6th to the Redskins. So I guess they dont see us drafting him either.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Lol you’re basing your poorly constructed opinion on drafts from Kiper and Mcshay.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
No, but I think they know a little more than you.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
McShay is an idiot.
By the way, I think the QB mentioned here was Jevan Snead, who McShay said was a first rounder, who went undrafted.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Heh, it says that right in your quote.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Uhhhhhh….I knew that.
Bernie19Kosar - January 12, 2012
That was supposed to be that sarcasm font.
Bernie19Kosar - January 12, 2012
I could not believe it when he declared for the draft. Of course Gabbert should have stayed another year too, but he got lucky since it was such a weak QB draft, or seemed like it at the time, it could end up being one of the best.
HenryDawg - January 11, 2012
Wrong. Heckert said:
Sounds like he thinks that whoever is there is already a can’t miss.
S.NM.Brown - January 10, 2012
OK I had the exact statement written wrong, but the point is valid, we have to hit on that pick.(One year we picked Mike Junkin with the 5th over all pick and that hurt, so it is possible to miss on an top 5 pick). Most analyst have us drafting Richardson, who I think is a mistake at #4. I would take RG3 over Richardson, but probably Claiborne or Blackmon over either Richardson or RG3
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Weird that you want to get Blackmon since you also think McCoy is terrible. We’re probably not getting Luck so who’s your QB?
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
You have to draft someone. We need receivers. If we dont draft a QB I would pick Colt McCoy to start over Wallace. I also like taking Claiborne. Brown is 31 or 32 so a CB would be a good pick
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I will say this if they pick RG3 hopefully he wont sit long
champion64 - January 10, 2012
Nothing you have ever said has come true. Pull your head out of your ass. When everyone on the site is telling you that you are wrong, you just may be wrong. Around here when people make a wild claim and you are asked to back them up you back them up or you drop it. You seem to have a problem with that. I’m wondering if you are cut out for this site.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Did Colt Suck? I think I said that enough didn’t I? Did I say I dont think Holmgren and Shurmur are committed to Colt McCoy before the season ended for next year and they actually said they were not ready to say he was the starter for next year, so that makes you wrong.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
The problem is you were far from the only person saying those things and you’re acting like everyone disagreed with you. I can even think of one person who said those things before the season started.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
That’s bullshit and you know it. All you ever said was a bunch of hyperbole about him being 5 foot nothing. I also never said Colt was “the guy” so i don’t know where the hell you are getting that from. Tell me where the hell I said that H&H were committed to McCoy. Now show me where they said they weren’t. All you have is a little coach-speak that you are reading into what you want to hear.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
It’s good to see I have a couple of buddies to join me in being a moron. Problem is, you still haven’t provided any kind of proof to back up your “facts.”
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
For the 100th goddamn time, most of us said we wanted to give Colt the season to see what he had. We never said he was the guy and H&H thought he was too. The FO said the same thing we did.
Despite all of that, you continued smashing everyone over the head with Colt’s lack of height and arm strength. I’ll put it in your language: NO ONE EVER SAID WE WERE 100% CONVINCED THAT COLT WAS THE QBOTF, WE JUST WANTED TO GIVE HIM A CHANCE.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
How dare you want to give a player a shot. We all knew he was a bust.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
I’M YELLING AT SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS YELLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING.
SpecialBrownie - January 10, 2012
LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!11
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
Oh my god, I can’t take this. A ton of people agreed with you about Colt being bad. Some people were even on that bandwagon prior to the season. The reason we aren’t falling all over ourselves to congratulate you is because of your delivery. You wouldn’t shut up about it, and you act like you’re sitting next to Tom Heckert as you type.
notthatnoise - January 10, 2012
Maybe if we all pitch in a couple bucks we can get him a Browns sweatshirt. That might slow him down.
Brownie's Year - January 10, 2012
What if he is Heckert?
HenryDawg - January 10, 2012
If he is, he damn well better have snacks.
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Or he’ll become a snack.
notthatnoise - January 11, 2012
This is exactly what people are talking about. No one would have a problem with anything you said here… except for the first sentence. Go ahead and state your opinion, but if you’re going to state Holmgren’s opinion please show us where he said this.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
I actually think you are all a bunch of high school girls.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
That really adds to the conversation. Thanks.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
You are not trying to have a conversation. You are trying to put people down. You are the ones making moronic little digs at people instead of talking to them and trying to understand. My basic comment is that although I believe and was confirmed that Holmgren and Shurmur and Heckert were not sold on McCoy as the future, I am not sure they will select RG3 if available. THat is my opinion.
champion64 - January 10, 2012
I’m trying to put people down? So far you have called me a moron, an idiot, and a high school girl.
RyanBr - January 10, 2012
You are the only one here putting people down.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Quit acting like they said something they didn’t or show at least one tiny iota of freaking proof please.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
This is all that you needed to write. We would probably even let it slide if you wrote this twice. But you are in repeat mode and you are stating your opinion as H&H’s all thru this thread. That’s why you are getting little digs.
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
Except for the part where he said it’s been confirmed.
Dawg Nuts - January 11, 2012
agree, didn’t proofread well enough before copy and paste. Didn’t see NCF’s post til after either. LOL
Kimble_79 - January 11, 2012
If you are going to tell everyone you’re right, then you better be able to defend your position without calling names.
Bernie19Kosar - January 10, 2012
Pfffft. MORAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Dawg Nuts - January 10, 2012
Seriously, when can we vote this guy off the island?
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
Than leave and don’t come back. You won’t have to deal with people who you think are under you.
North Coast Flea - January 10, 2012
You live in Pittsburgh, wonderful, what a beautiful place.
champion64 - January 11, 2012
The hell does that have to do with anything?
North Coast Flea - January 11, 2012
It means that COLT SUCKS AND IS 4’8" CUT HIM MORONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Dawg Nuts - January 11, 2012
I agree
champion64 - January 11, 2012
You don’t say?
North Coast Flea - January 11, 2012
His name is MCNUGGET!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
I haven’t heard you say any of this…
bross09 - January 10, 2012
only 3 months and 15 days left
champion64 - January 10, 2012
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