It's amazing how positive the headlines start sounding when a certain someone gets removed from the Plain Dealer. It almost seems like people are walking on eggshells, eh?
The reason I say that is the following headline just published by Mary Kay Cabot of the Plain Dealer: "Cleveland Browns have renewed interest in keeping Peyton Hillis?" That's right -- after an entire season of hearing all of the negatives about Hillis, with speculation that he was as good as gone, Cabot now states that the Browns would like to retain Hillis after all, according to a source:
The Browns would like to re-sign running back Peyton Hillis, who worked his way back into the team's good graces over the final six weeks of the season, a league source said.
Cabot says that the team likely has not been in contact with Hillis' agent since midseason, but that the front office will get in touch with the agents of the free agents they want to bring back over the next month or so.
I think the Browns would be wise to retain Hillis at a decent price, but one that is a little lesser than what he was reportedly requesting this past season.
0 recs | 295 comments
Am I the only one who completely disregards anything any of the Plain Dealer Browns writers say, except for maybe Pluto?
macdowellm03 - January 30, 2012
No
APV - January 30, 2012
Whoa, forgot what blog I was on for a second.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
You’re not alone.
Legoman0721 - January 31, 2012
he should be on sale but i’d definitely like to keep him.
pwndabear - January 30, 2012
On sale for what?
TheDriveStillHurts - January 30, 2012
Twenty nine or TWO FOR FIFTAY.
Adrock2099 - January 30, 2012
I gave him TREE FIDDAY!.
SpecialBrownie - January 30, 2012
How much for one rib?
Les Fleurs Du Mal - January 31, 2012
F@&! the cup – Put it in mah hand for a dime.
browndawgbacker - January 31, 2012 via iPhone app
GOT CHANGE FO AHUNNAD?
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
I want him. Life without him this season was ugly, and I still think if healthy Hillis (big “if”) can be a very good #1 back
tr1betime - January 30, 2012
All correct.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 30, 2012
Do you want him like, say, a certain OC’s wife did or in a very sportsmanlike manner?
BuenosAires_Dawg - January 30, 2012
What chu talkin bout Willis!?!?!
siejecy - January 31, 2012
What chu talkin’ ’bout Hillis!?
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I’m talkin’ ’bout Shaft.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
He carries the ball well, he catches well. Now imagine how effective he would be if we had something (positive) happening in the passing game. I gave myself chills just thinking about it.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
There are just too many holes to worry about RB.
nickjs21 - January 30, 2012
Yea so why not offer him a decent (not great) 1 year contract, so if he takes it thats one less need, if not we can look elsewhere.
BornAKardiacKid - January 30, 2012 via Android app
They would be smart to keep him but I completely discount this article that probably is from a source not too close to the Browns… which means she read it on teh Intarweb somewheres. I’m telling you, we will be missing Grossi big time after we get a load of what is going to replace him.
Brownsyup - January 30, 2012
I think Grossi could be replaced by a hand puppet and we still wouldn’t miss him.
Kaner - January 30, 2012
Agree I wouldn’t miss Grossi if he was replaced by the anti-christ.
crazyL80 - January 30, 2012
Sorry, but Art is not welcome in Ohio.
Bumblyjack - January 30, 2012
She did all the legwork when he had a job, I don’t see what the difference will be.
nickjs21 - January 30, 2012 via Android app
This is so true, Grossi was basically a beat reporter in name only, most of the time he just threw opinions against a wall. MKC actually runs down stories, for better or worse.
HenryDawg - January 30, 2012
MKC finds the dudes with the swag on their belt buckles. This alone should be proof enough that she has run down more leads than Grossi has in his entire life.
Off-the-Chain - January 30, 2012
I think the guys with amazing belt buckles seek her out.
North Coast Flea - January 30, 2012
actually runs down stories = reads (some of the) Tweets
JustBob - January 31, 2012
She’s a puppet.
Roger Dorn - January 30, 2012
I found this on Rotoworld, they were quoting the story in the PD but I’m not sure if this is their take or the PD’s.
For the 26-year-old Hillis, a deal like Pierre Thomas’ four-year, $11.2 million pact would be a reasonable starting point. Hillis may look more toward Ahmad Bradshaw’s $18 million over four years
Kaner - January 30, 2012
As long as he’s not looking for 6-9 million a year its probably fine. He really did show what he can bring to a team in the last few games.
HenryDawg - January 30, 2012
I won’t mind having him back at the Thomas deal.
Bernie19Kosar - January 30, 2012
I can’t see him going for a Pierre Thomas deal. Thomas played in every game, only had 110 carries and 562 yds and 5 tds and 50 rec and 425 yds. Hillis in only 10 games had 161 carries and 587 yds 3 tds and 22 rec and 130 yds. Hillis has a completely different role for us than Pierre Thomas in NO.
Villeslgr - January 30, 2012
I understand, that is just the limit of what I would pay him.
The Bradshaw contract should be an outlier. Bradshaw is a much better RB.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
We’ve been over this before, but statistically speaking Bradshaw and Hillis are almost identical, with health and age being the only differences.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
They’re only a year apart- Health is probably more of an issue with Hillis, though.
On the age issue, I’ve been wondering. It’s well known that 30 is generally the wall for running backs, but is that due to changes in the body that take place at 30 or is that more due to the amount of reps taken by 30? Because although Hillis has been in the league for 3 years so far, he’s only really taken a majority of the reps for a season and a half. I don’t know if that plays into the discussion at all.
shep615 - January 31, 2012
reps. look at ricky williams.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Higher career YPC, better pass blocker and more dynamic player. Plus, Bradshaw plays injured.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
Plus I will address the elephant in the room.
I would venture a guess that Hillis has used PED’s. Combine that with his running style, I doubt he will ever be a productive back in the NFL again.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
Glad we are throwing accusations around without any sort of evidence besides perception.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
Eh, I mean, the dude got HUGE right out of college. Body growth usually stunts midway through college. I mean, we all generalize Harrison does them due to his growth, Hillis kind of… fits the bill.
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
I didn’t know anything of him in college. I am not doubting you, but can you provide links or something that shows a difference between college and pros?
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
Not even just pros. Look at him from Denver to us.
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
Nah its just our weight room is zoo much better then denvers
youngergenerationbrownsfan - January 31, 2012
Not seeing any evidence there.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
The dude gained like 2 more inches of muscle just by moving teams?
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
You can see that from that picture?
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
I see a couple of inches of growth.
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
The right arm looks identical. The left arm looks bigger in the flexed position.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
Shorter sleeve has a lot to do with it also. His arms look bigger because you can see more of them.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
His arm definitely looks bigger with us but not so much that I would say that he got it outside of the gym.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
It’s clearly just the difference in atmospheric pressure. Less oxygen = Less muscles.
The New Kardiac Kids - February 1, 2012
Those pics are two years apart. He was bigger in his second year with Denver and was already large when he got here.
Brownie's Year - January 31, 2012
Lmao me either. Maybe just maybe a little more cut but anyone can do that with a little work lol
The naome40 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Exactly. It’s not hard to gain weight and muscle mass in a 2 year period. Now if Hillis was a skinny ass RB in Denver, then there could be a case for PEDs.
Plus the shoulder pads he wears now makes him look bigger.
Brownie's Year - January 31, 2012
Yeah it’s not like we’re talking about Brian Cushing here.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
Like Pittsburgh Pirates Barry Bonds and San Francisco Giants Barry Bonds
The naome40 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
He looks jacked in both. Can’t really compare with pads on.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
being in Cleveland just does this to people.
tr1betime - January 31, 2012
JT just let him stand closer to the camera.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
Should also add, that I wasn’t disputing that Hillis is on PEDs, just that we don’t really have any factual basis for it, nor should we be so quick to disregard him as a player using this as a reason.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
I’ll dispute it on the whole innocent until proven guilty thing, or even better innocent until there is even a shred of evidence to the contrary.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
i generally assume that 90% of nfl players are using some sort of PED. the human body is not supposed to be that big and that fast all at once.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Thats why they are called professional athletes. They aren’t supposed to be like everyone else
The naome40 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Hillis had the frame already and more time for the gym after graduating. It is possible, but I see nothing to warrant suspicion.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
I have no problem taking the heat. I am not a journalist or a reporter, and I don’t claim to have any sort of evidence.
But the eyeball test says it all for me.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
I will add that I don’t think Hillis is the only guy. Far from it. I’m guessing that the NFL PED rate would make the MLB’s rate look minuscule.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
i think you are dead on.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
I agree here. The NFL simply doesn’t take it seriously.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I agree that it’s likely that a lot of NFL players are juicing up, I also think Hillis is a prime candidate to be one of them. However, just looking at two pictures is not nearly enough to definitively say one way or another.
Legoman0721 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I didn’t mean to imply that I thought Hillis is juicing. I wouldn’t be surprised, but I don’t really see why he should be at the top of the list. Even in baseball, PEDs are mostly used to keep players healthy longer into their careers, so being big isn’t necessarily an indicator.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I actually believe the “concussion” issue is the NFL trying to avoid two things:
1. A lawsuit from former players
2. Higher powers mandating the NFL goes gung-ho in drug testing.
It’s a whole lot easier to get guys to hit each other in the chest than to get an entire league clean. Again, I have no evidence of this, just my beliefs.
If you will excuse me now, I have to get back to my mothership.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
Oh yeah, for sure.
rufio - January 31, 2012
Agree with this.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
You forgot the “*”
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
How does use of PEDs prohibit him from having another good season or two? If that was the case half the league would be one and done guys.
browndawgbacker - January 31, 2012 via iPhone app
Probably correct, good point.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
He is brittle as is. No one else see’s a correlation between his injuries and the supposed side effects of PED?
Hamstring issues? The rumored attitude swings with the team this season?
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence here.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
Correlation? Most athletes that use PEDs take them to speed up the rehab of an injury. IDK, but wouldn’t they also make you less prone to injury?
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
Not just injuries but also general pain and inflammation from games and practices. I wouldn’t be surprised if a big chunk of pro athletes were using them. Hell I know gym rats who use them and have nothing to gain by it. These guys careers rely on their ability to recover and perform at peak efficiency.
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
at the same time, PEDs can help you get so big that you literally outgrow your tendons/joints.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Steroids have short-term regenerative effects for muscles and soft tissue, but degenerative long term effects.
Take Bonds as an example. He was really good, then for like 4 years he was unreal good, then the next year he couldn’t walk.
rufio - January 31, 2012
Unless it was intentional.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Nicely done.
notthatnoise - February 1, 2012
Took me a minute, but that was good.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
Not really.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Yea, I don’t see it. Not to say I don’t think he isn’t using, I just don’t see anything credible.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
Right.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I really don’t think there is any evidence of this and we shouldn’t really be throwing that around.
That’s quite a statement. He was pretty productive for us in the last 5 or 6 games of this season.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
After being hurt the entire first half of the season. Plus he had injuries in Denver as well.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
the unfortunate reality of the age that we live in is that 250 pound guys who run 4.5 40 yard dashes are their own evidence. the size and speed at which these guys operate alone is enough to suspect most of them of some kind of enhancement usage.
i’m not trying to throw stones, i’m not judging … it just is, as far as i’m concerned.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Watch a game on ESPN classic from even 10 years ago. The change in the size and speed of this game is staggering even over that short amount of time.
The perfect example, everyone drooled over Mike Mamula in ’95. He weighed 245 pounds, benched 26 reps and ran a 4.58 40 time. That was earth shattering stuff at the time.
This past season Brooks Reed weighed 263 pounds, ran a 4.68, benched 30 reps and it was no big deal.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
I had not thought to look at the stats after this season. Hillis had an uncharacteristically low YPC this year (3.6). I could explain some of that away, but it still isn’t a good number. Bradshaw has always had the advantage of playing in a balanced offense though, whereas Hillis has been the only weapon on the team. Bradshaw also plays worse defenses. Even after that, their career YPCs are 4.2 and 4.6, which is certainly meaningful but I’m not sure the gap is as big as it looks.
Hillis is a very good pass blocker, I don’t know why you think Bradshaw is better.
As far as being a dynamic player, Bradshaw’s longest runs the past two seasons (his only seasons as a starter) were 37 and 48 yards. Hillis’ longest were 48 and 24. I know that’s just picking one run over a whole season, but I think it shows that neither guy is some big home run threat.
Your claim that Hillis doesn’t play injured is simply wrong. We know he played with broken ribs last year. You may not think he should have sat out as many games as he did this year, but the facts are he plays injured.
Hillis is also a slightly better receiver than Bradshaw. He has almost the same amount of receptions and yards as Bradshaw while being a year behind in terms of playing time. He has a better average on those receptions as well. He does something Bradshaw doesn’t do: he makes big plays in the receiving game. In five seasons Bradshaw has only had one reception longer than 30 yards. Hillis has only had one season out of three without a reception of 40 or more.
I think you would be hard pressed to argue that they are not extremely similar players, and Bradshaw is certainly not “much better.”
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
Hillis was back before Andre Johnson, both had hamstring injuries. The idea that he doesn’t play hurt is Browns spin.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
Andre Johnson needed surgery, Hillis didn’t. Johnson’s was much more severe.
Plus the whole strep throat saga. I don’t think it is all spin.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
You don’t think he was sick?
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
I do, but I think he could have played.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
I think you are underestimating how serious of a thing strep throat is than.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
No I understand, but this is football. Jack Youngblood played with a broken leg. That douche Rivers played with a torn ACL.
How is Hillis supposed to face his team mates when TJ Ward had a bone break through the skin, got it stitched, and went back in?
The fact that his team mates had an issue with it speaks volumes to me.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
Hard to play football when you can barely take in fluids. Strep makes it almost impossible to swallow. Even water feels like glass going down. What speaks volumes to me is that he lost 10-15 lbs during said time. Having a broken bone or a torn ligament doesn’t keep you from being able to do the most basic of human functions such as eat and drink.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
He could take an IV.
Hell, our Center played a game with a busted appendix. You think he would have sat out with strep throat?
I just saying, if he wanted to play, he could have played.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
Having had strep throat a few times myself, I’m just not going to agree with you on this one. I know I’m not a professional athlete but there was no way in Hell I could have even played two hand touch football, let alone actual football. And that was when I was young and in shape.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
Also I think the "you should play sick/injured’ attitude is a bad one to have. Sacrificing your future for a shot term gain is very, well, shot sighted. I’d rather players sit out when sick/injured and have a longer more fruitful career.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
I had the exact same reaction. I don’t know enough about Bradshaw’s pass blocking to say who is “better” but Hillis is definitely above average in that regard and there is no discernible difference to me in pass blocking among backs except for three categories: (i) bad; (ii) average; or (iii) above average.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
And to tie that back into playing while injured, he went back into a game with his hammy injury just so he could be used to block – and maybe to give the D second thoughts.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
do we really buy that? i’m asking honestly.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
When he went back in at first I was cursing the fact that he wasn’t getting the ball, but then I realized that he looked a bit gimpy. So, I’m not basing it on any analysis that I read, but just on what I saw (or thought I saw).
JustBob - January 31, 2012
Bradshaw has been more consistently good, but yes they are very similar players. If I could only have one for next season, no doubt I take Bradshaw, but he is hardly in a category above Hillis.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
Haven’t seen the numbers from this season, but in 2011, Bradshaw was rated as the best pass blocking RB in the NFL.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
It doesn’t look like you looked at that article very carefully. Bradshaw ranks first in the number of plays where he stayed in to block. Incidentally, Hillis ranked 12th. In terms of efficiency, Bradshaw was second. That’s very good. You know what else is very good? Peyton Hillis being ranked 6th. Considering how deficient I think PFF’s stats are, I’ll call that a wash. Peyton Hillis is a very good pass protector. In fact, he was one of three backs singled out along with Bradshaw and Matt Forte. Here’s what PFF had to say about him:
They seem pretty impressed. That’s not all though. They also compiled the same list but taken over the last three years, to reduce inconsistencies. In this more telling chart, Bradshaw still ranks second, but Hillis is now up to fourth. Again, I’d call that a wash.Not related, but interesting nonetheless, Ray Rice, AP, and Chris Johnson all end up near the worst blockers in the league.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I looked, I just consider the fact that Quinn Johnson was number 1 pretty silly, considering he has never had a carry in his career. That’s why I considered Bradshaw to be #1.
You can call it a wash, but I go off what I see. Everytime I watch the Giants, Bradshaw has blitz pick up after blitz pickup. I take him over Hillis every time.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
i like hillis a lot, and i hope we bring him back, but i consider bradshaw to be the better back, too.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
A bit better, I agree.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
I don’t think anyone would, but Hillis would be an idiot to settle for that.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I would give him 16 million over 4 years, easy.
rufio - January 31, 2012
This is the exact numbers I was thinking. 4 million a year up until he is around 30 years old. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
RyanBr - January 31, 2012
I think Hillis won’t resign with us, before the regular season ended there was a rumor that the Pats were interested in Hillis. I think Peyton would rather want a new start with a super bowl contender team then staying in cleveland where there still trying figure out the offense and everything else.
pt_999 - January 30, 2012
I’d love it if he came back, but I’ll puke if he signs within our division.
ouched - January 30, 2012
This. I guess Pittspuke wants to go back to a run first approach. If he’s wearing black and yellow next year I will literally be sick.
HenryDawg - January 30, 2012
That would come close to Lebron and Modell territory if he did that. Also there would be a lot of jerseys and Madden 12 games barbeque’d.
BornAKardiacKid - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I still have my #23 jersey. Don’t know what to do with it.
rufio - January 31, 2012
Tape over the threes and the name on the back: Voila! Throwback Kyrie jersey!
Adrock2099 - January 31, 2012
OMG….Genius!!!!
dirtyjoe - January 31, 2012
Nice.
Aussie Brown - January 31, 2012
This is hilarious. Funny cat gifs never get old.
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
If he’s in black and yellow next year, I wish him successive bouts of strep.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
I’m on board for the right amount of money.
kamasutraman_007 - January 30, 2012
OT: Dunno why History is even bothering bringing back American Top Gear. Jeremy and the gang are coming back on the BBC!
SpecialBrownie - January 30, 2012
Love the BBC UK version!!
mr.saturday.night - January 31, 2012
The best is when they tried to destroy that Toyota truck! INDESTRUCTABLE!
ctowndawgpound - January 31, 2012
And the amphibious vehicles.
And the trek across Botswana.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
I think this is more likely a case of Hillis lowering his value to the point where he could be a good buy-low option for Cleveland
APV - January 30, 2012
Agreed. I don’t know who was thinking what at the beginning of the year, but this season made it clear that the best option for Hillis is to take a one-year deal this season and hope to cash in next year. He would likely be willing to play for a poor team where he knows he’ll get touches.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
Ah crap, when the headlines get too positive I get nervous someone shipped the PD some Browns kool-aid. The Grossi irrational reporting was somehow reassuring, because no matter how crappy things got during the season, at least you knew from the start that none of his bilge would actually come true.
Off-the-Chain - January 30, 2012
For a reasonable deal I would love to have Hillis back. Rushing for 112 yards against the Ravens in week 16 I think reminded some at the Browns why we like a healthy Hillis so much. In addition, for some reason Colt didn’t dump it off to him as much in the few games he was healthy this year. He has great hands and can definitely be part of a west coast office.
BiggieBrown - January 30, 2012
*offense
BiggieBrown - January 30, 2012
His hands are why I want him back, too. Even though he has a tendency to fumble on run plays. His carries need to be limited, somewhat. But he still needs to be on the field for 90% of the offensive plays because of threat he presents, out of the backfield. We’ll have Brandon Jackson back as well and moving Peyton to FB should also extend his career a few years. 3 year, $12mill + $1mill in incentives, with $6million guaranteed, should be enough to make him the highest paid FB in NFL history. I don’t think its to much to pay him to play FB because of the added depth he provides at RB, as well.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
I know he only played half the year but I can’t remember him fumbling last year.
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
Number of carries were way down. Don’t get me wrong, I want "The Beast " running the ball, especially in short yardage and goal line situations, just not as our lead carrier. I’m only suggesting lowering his carries but increasing short passes to give him a similar # of touches.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
Also, IMO, I don’t think fumbling is an issue with Hillis until the workload becomes to demanding.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
My impression of Shurmur’s offense is that the FB is not an important position. Why put one of your best players in a non-vital position when he’s doing just fine in a more important role? I also doubt that it would lengthen his career. FBs take some nasty punishment, just ask Marecic.
Legoman0721 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I hate to say this, but I would rather have Tony than MKC.
Roger Dorn - January 30, 2012
I think they are both bad in their own ways. MKC is irrelevant to me. Her job could be done by a Browns employee with a twitter. Grossi on the other hand contributed to football ignorance, but at least he stood out in some way.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
It is.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
I can see that. MKC just reports whatever she has picked up from the Brown’s press releases. Grossi actually did some analysis. Hopefully the PD will hire/assign someone with some writing skills.
Kaner - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I’ll take Chris.
rufio - January 31, 2012
I support this.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
Chris for vice-president.
dawgtribe - January 31, 2012
JT for Prez.
dawgtribe - January 31, 2012
We definitely have some very good writing on DBN… a lot of it better than what you get reading the PD or any other source.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
Pokorny! Pokorny!
BornAKardiacKid - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Not in a million billion all the illion years.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
I think the difference is that I don’t even read MKC articles whereas I would happily jump into a Grossi train wreck.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
I don’t see why people have it in so bad for Grossi. I listened to his podcast every day practically for a couple of years. He rarely had groaners in which I’d go “that’s garbage”. Whereas I find myself turning off “The Big Show” quite a bit because they say stupid things or relay obvious rumors. Now the afternoon PD podcast isn’t worth listening too at all. It sounds like a Browns-produced show. I think Grossi made a bad mistake and that the PD did the right thing but I just sort of wish none of it would have happened.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
I can understand this.
Better to be incredibly bad than boring.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
What? No it isn’t. We’re still talking about someone being paid to be a journalist.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Incredibly bad can be interesting at least.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
This is not supposed to be the aim of a beat journalist.
nickjs21 - February 1, 2012
Tell that to the PD.
notthatnoise - February 1, 2012
I was talking about just from the readers perspective.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
Ditto.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
Want him back just so we don’t have to waste our pick on Richardson
BELIEVELAND - January 31, 2012
This. With so many holes to fill, we do not want to have to draft a running back too.
Aussie Brown - January 31, 2012
sign him please..he’s gonna have a monster year
'thedrive'ruinedmy9thbirthday - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I really hope we don’t bring him back. Hillis is just average IMO. Seriously if this guy wasn’t the “great white running back” he’d just be another guy.
Brocolis154033 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I think that’s way off. He is a very good running back.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I guess as long as he’d be alright with a backup/situational role then Id sign him. We don’t the same definition of very good. Average players still contribute and to me hillis isn’t a complete back. I want my lead back to be able to take it the distance from anywhere on the feild plus be dangerous in space and Hillis doesn’t fit the bill.
Brocolis154033 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
What world do you live in? A backup to whom?
Hardesty? I mean maybe he busts out next year but there is no reason to believe he will.
Brandon Jackson? Seriously — did you watch him in Green Bay when he got the starter’s role? He sucked and lost it to a sixth round rookie coming off the PUP list at the end of the season.
Ogbonaya? Next question.
I realize that there are reasons not re-sign Hillis — for example, he may think he is worth more than he is. But the idea that he is not by far the best back on our roster is laughable.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
For good measure.
This is my response to your comment.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
to be fair, James Starks is awesome.
bross09 - January 31, 2012
He’s a pretty good back. Awesome? Not so sure about that.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
I am biased in his favor…
bross09 - January 31, 2012
As am I.
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
I never said he wasn’t the rb on our current roster but that really isn’t saying much.
Brocolis154033 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I seriously have no idea how you came to these conclusions. He often gets 2-3 yards where other backs would get nothing and he has great hands coming out of the backfield. Maybe he’d be able to break off more big runs if he was facing eight in the box on damned near every hand-off, but unfortunately the Browns offense has been better at compressing the D than stretching it.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
He is not a home run hitter. It would take a catastrophic mistake by the defense for hillis to get a 30 yard run. I just prefer fast and elusive RBs.
Brocolis154033 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Hillis has broken off some big runs.
rufio - January 31, 2012
I prefer guys with talent that can make a difference. Big, little, fast, strong, I don’t care. Just as long as they get the job done. Hillis can get the job done.
Legoman0721 - February 1, 2012 via Android app
Can I interest you in a FB role?
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
Hillis is very physical and makes yards when there are none. He’s a good player.
rufio - January 31, 2012
On a team with a deficit of good players. If you can resign him at a reasonable price and you don’t think there is some other intangible reason for not keeping him, you do keep him. We are in no position to just let go of our good players because we want great, great players. There are only so many APs out there and their price is not worth it to a team in our position — we need to build at a ton of other positions such that super-elite running back is a luxury we cannot afford.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
exactly. don’t create a weakness where there is not currently one. i would even pay him a premium for the value of not having to worry about RB1 for the next 3 years.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Hillis is way above average. When healthy he gives you that 1st down 5-7 yard carry almost every time and the capability of getting a first down on 3rd and short just about every time. These two factors have a huge effect on a game’s outcome.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
Thank you Captain Obvious. And I mean that with complete respect — the fact that we need to point this out to people is absurd.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
Hillis is great. When he is healthy and wants to play. Two things that seem to be missing a lot.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
as per MKC. C’mon, man.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
So that’s how we have won so many games.
Brocolis154033 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Wow.
The New Kardiac Kids - February 1, 2012
THIS IS MY GUESS….. no fact just a thought. If they bring back Hillis, it may mean that we are drafting a quarterback (RGIII). To bring in a new quarterback and give him no proven running game (Hardesty, Obie, Jackson are all as of yet not feature backs) would be a lot to put on a new Quarterback shoulders. I think more and more signs are that RGIII may be the pick, and I really thought they would not select him.
champion64 - January 31, 2012
Likewise, if you bring in a running game (Richardson) and don’t have a passing game (the Browns current passing game) then you are setting up Richardson to fail. Defenses that face a minimized passing threat can really key on the run and stop it dead regardless who you have carrying the rock.. I hope you are right about RG III but I’d go for just about anything that would improve the passing offense which is just about any receiver or QB in the first round or so or some decent free-agents.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
Childress. He looked at the RB’s and saw what he would be left with if they lose Hillis. Having AP in Minn you can see why. So i am sure he spoke up, maybe even during the interviews…hey we gotta have a running game and man I hope they get Flynn so we can address other holes in the draft and not pay out the nose for Griffin. And yep i miss Grossi and his opinionated rants…and that he led the charge Vs. Arty.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
If that’s the case, score one for Chilly. Letting him go with what we have as a fall back is a self inflicted wound considering the holes we already have to fill. I just hope they can come to terms that suit both parties. I’m thinking 3-4 mil for 3ish years with a 4th year option, plus incentives that pay him like the league’s top back if plays like one.
ouched - January 31, 2012
You don’t have to pay out the nose for any draft picks anymore. No Flynn please. Seems like the next Cassel/Kolb.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
By paying out the nose I meant it would take our 4th, 22nd and probably more to move up…hence crippling the already weak roster.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
I would sit tight at 4 and see what falls to us.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
“Crippling” is an odd word to use since it’s only one less draft pick. We do get the 2, you know.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
Minimum prob will be 4 pics, heck maybe more to move up 2 slots, is that really worth it?
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
And where do you get this idea? Minimum 4 picks? Who offers better than two 2012 firsts to ONLY move down 2 slots?
You can’t just pull numbers out of thin air and present them to support your idea.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
Ok easy one, Ditka trading 8 picks to move up to 5.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
And the Falcons only traded 4 to move up about 20. If you base every possibility of trading up based on what Ditka gave up, you are never going to want your team to trade up, even if it’s the smart option.
bross09 - January 31, 2012
more than 4 picks to move up two spots? Where are you getting this from.
bross09 - January 31, 2012
By the time the draft rolls around the hype of RG3 will probably make that a given. It will be like Palmer’s runaway train. You dont think there are teams that would try to beat the Browns 4th and 22nd?
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
I would think the combine will solidify RGIII as the Browns pick. I imagine he will have a very good combine
champion64 - January 31, 2012
The better the combine the higher the price.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
The higher the price the lower the demand.
nickjs21 - February 1, 2012
and to counteract the possibility of raised hype, there will be much fewer bidders on the services on RG3. Wherever Flynn, Campbell, and manning go, you can count out those teams from the RG3 sweepstakes. And there are some (like miami) who may not take one of those guys but may feel fine staying pat.
bross09 - January 31, 2012
I think it’s safe to say Manning is done. Too much nerve damage in his shoulder. He having trouble getting strength back in to his throwing arm.
Brownie's Year - January 31, 2012
I don’t think it’s safe to say. He wants to play again and there is a decent enough chance he can.
bross09 - January 31, 2012
I don’t know if it’s a safe bet, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
I can’t see any team signing him just to wait and see if he ever gets healthy enough to play.
Brownie's Year - January 31, 2012
Why not, we held on to Gary Baxter for a long time after he destroyed both knees and he was no Peyton Manning.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
was gary baxter owed a $26M roster bonus?
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Was Gary Baxter possibly the best player ever to lace up a Uni?
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
Are you seriously saying Manning is?
Red-Right-88 - February 1, 2012
Peyton Manning in my opinion is the greatest football player to ever play in the NFL.
I have no problem saying that.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
I disagree. my Bias does not let me choose someone other than Otto Graham.
bross09 - February 1, 2012
This.
The New Kardiac Kids - February 1, 2012
I have said numerous times that he is the best QB ever. That likely means he’s the best player ever.
notthatnoise - February 1, 2012
Without a shadow of a doubt my friend.
North Coast Flea - February 1, 2012
Griffin had one great season. Flynn had one great game. The price is to great for either. I’d pass on both.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
griffin had 3 standout years. you are not right.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
Here is what I would like:
Re-sign Peyton Hillis to a 1- year deal, then trade back with Washington or Miami or Seattle for their 1st/2nd/3rd round picks, and draft Richardson. Keeps Hardesty off the field, gives Peyton a back to split time with, and still gives us a back that defenses cannot ignore when he’s in. Then once Peyton walks for a huge contract next year we have Richardson to step up and take his place.
Then we have two 1st round picks, two 2nd round picks, and I think three 3rd round picks. Seven top-100 picks… Man, you could fill a ton of holes with that.
shep615 - January 31, 2012
It sounds great in theory, but we would still be without a QB.
Even the best running attacks struggle against 8 man fronts.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
trade the #22 + McCoy for Flynn
Brian Sipe - January 31, 2012
Flynn is a FA, we aren’t trading anything for him.
shep615 - January 31, 2012
you don’t think they’re gonna use the franchise tag on him?
Brian Sipe - January 31, 2012
And pay a backup QB top 5 money?
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
obviously they would have to have a deal in place with another team. just seems like there’s such interest in him that it might play out like that.
Brian Sipe - January 31, 2012
Seems highly unlikely GB does that and risks paying a backup starting money if no team wants to approach the price for a tagged player.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
Yeah i see your point. I think I’m just nervous that Miami’s gonna break the bank for him and we’re gonna miss out… :(
Brian Sipe - January 31, 2012
Let them.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
Legoman0721 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
They would franchise him to prevent another team from signing him and then trade him for less than that.
rufio - January 31, 2012
yeah that’s what i thought initially. the Browns wouldn’t be paying him 14m per season. probably more like 8-10m
Brian Sipe - February 1, 2012
the matt cassel model
DontCallMeJoey - February 2, 2012
Oh jeez, Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar?!
Heaven. Now only if BK’s daughter was here…
SpecialBrownie - January 31, 2012
Ewwww…with that nasty tramp stamp?
The New Kardiac Kids - February 1, 2012
Why are you looking at the tatt?
Brownie's Year - February 1, 2012
Can’t help it…its huge.
The New Kardiac Kids - February 1, 2012
Is RGIII the only QB worth looking at in the draft? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m just wondering what you think about the other prospects. I think Tannehill and maybe Foles are worth looking into- They wouldn’t have the immediate impact RGIII likely would, but we’re more than just a starting QB away from competing in the AFC North. I think we can afford to let a QB develop.
Plus, while I don’t think in my heart of hearts that Colt can be the guy moving forward, I think he would look a lot better with Hillis/Richardson in the backfield, throwing to maybe Sanu/Wright/Another draft pick, Little, and Norwood, and being protected by JT, Steinbach, Mack, Pinkston/Lauvao/Draft pick. A TE would help too. I gotta think that he would at least look decent with a supporting cast that looks like that.
With that being said, I’ve liked RGIII since about week 4 of this last college season. I would definitely be satisfied if we got RGIII, but to pass the time until draft day I have taken to exploring other possibilities :)
shep615 - January 31, 2012
I would like Luck as well, but I don’t think the Colts will be interested in moving him.
When it comes down to it, I think there are usually one or two elite QB prospects every year. Doesn’t mean they will be elite, I’m just talking about their prospect status. What happens a lot is that teams talk themselves into “so-so” prospects because of need. You see it every single season (last year was a prime example).
As for me, I don’t see another top shelf QB option. I think Tannehill is going to go much higher than he should. I think Weeden shows promise, but is a horrible fit for us as he is already in his “prime” as a rookie.
The bottom line is, there are two elite guys. One of them is unattainable. We have more ammo (picks to trade) than we as a franchise have ever had. Why dick around for another season to see if the last failed project will work, when we can just go ahead and buy the elite prospect?
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
In 1996 we had the 4th and 26th pick…oh wait they moved….Ogden and Lewis. In that draft two are better than one. Sign Flynn and use the picks to address both sides of the ball.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
And look at all the super bowls they’ve won with no QB.
rufio - January 31, 2012
One. However very competitive. Give me Ozzie pulling the trigger anyday.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
In 2004 the Giants traded their 3rd pick and their 1st and 5th picks in 2005 to move up and take Eli Manning. A Quarterback. They won 1 Superbowl with him and are poised to possibly win another. San Diego, though they had more picks hasn’t even been to the Superbowl in that time. We can all cherry pick the draft and find examples that prove our points.
But if you think that the Browns can be competitive next year without improving at the QB position I disagree. The offense is definitely the weak side of the ball and the QBs are obvious non-starters on any other team.
Brownsyup - January 31, 2012
I agree, what I am worried about is that the front office has said we are going to build thru the draft, we havent seen much how they do in Free Agency so the more picks we have the better….but yep I would take what I know about Eli now…so funny that Leaf is the opposite of what can happen.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
Other than Drew Brees (see my signature), name me an elite team in the last 10 years that picked up their QB in free agency. Maybe, maybe, the Rich Gannon Raiders, but that team was hardly elite.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
Your sig should also include Brady for examples of late round gold
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
Just real quick off the top of my head: Dilfer Bal (Super Bowl) and Warner Ariz (Super Bowl), just saying it can happen…and the aforementioned Brees.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
Warner yes. Dilfer, no.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 31, 2012
Ahhh but you said, and Elite Team in the last 10 years that picked up their QB in FA. You didn’t say the QB had to be elite. :)
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
Either way Dilfer is irrelevant to the (arbitrary, but clearly stated) 10-year window.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
Just missed the 10 year window…how bout Brad Johnson TB.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
I like the signature.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
We’ve seen exactly how they do in free agency. They pick up solid veterans on the cheap who provide good depth and can start for a year or two.
rufio - January 31, 2012
I don’t know what this proves.
Bernie19Kosar - January 31, 2012
That was actually a second draft of my original post. In the first one I said there are two QBs that could come in and start right away and likely have an impact, but we can only get one of them :) Forgot it in the 2nd draft, bummer.
Ultimately, I think you will end up being right. I’d be really OK with that, because I think we can still fill a lot of the holes we have through free agency especially if we have to trade a number of picks to move up and take RGIII.
Wouldn’t it be awesome if we got on the phone with the Redskins and said “Hey guys, we know you want to take RGIII… Why don’t you trade with us and we can give you a better deal than St. Louis?”
Pick 4 comes around
“BAHA just kidding! Suckers!”
Browns pick RGIII and keep the rest of their picks
shep615 - January 31, 2012
There’s no reason for Washington to trade up to 4.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012
No but look for them to try to move up to 2.
Red-Right-88 - January 31, 2012
I’m hoping so. Will be a lot less arguing around here if RG3 is no longer an option. lol
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
Weeden being in his prime can be interpreted as an advantage. Some teams are more interested in winning NOW than gambling on a QBOF. Weeden can be had on the cheap and buy a team more time to find thier future QB.
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
no, the thing is that weeden is in his age prime … but he’s only just getting to the big leagues. by the time he catches on, he’ll be on the downhill of his physical/age prime. he’s a bad bet for a team that isn’t going to be good for another couple of years.
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
That’s what Colt is for.
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
By the time this team should be a Super Bowl contender, Weeden will be in his early 30’s.
He is a short term answer for a long term problem.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
What difference does it make if the PD puts a postive article out on Hillis? He is an unrestricted FA and the Browns have no leverage whatsoever in the deal. It would be stupid on his part to play through last year and not check out his FA options. Nothing helped the Browns rekindle their interest like watching Montario Hardesty run right into the arses of his OL on a continual basis. Dude was basically a running advertising banner that said “Sign Peyton”
realmccoy - January 31, 2012
Don’t know if it was meant to, but that image of Hardesty made me laugh.
JustBob - January 31, 2012
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
Txbrownsfan - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
Txbrownsfan - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
shep615 - January 31, 2012
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
Jon @ DBN - January 31, 2012
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
HenryDawg - January 31, 2012
I hope he stays ! That way I don’t have to buy another jersey.
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
Lol!! so apparently we are tired of buying new jerseys
Txbrownsfan - January 31, 2012 via mobile
There is a simple answer to this. Don His Divine #73 and your wallet will runneth over from not having to throw down for yet another jersey. The Holy #73 is eternal after all.
ouched - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Praise Be to 73
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
This will always be rec’d by this worshiper.
Bernie19Kosar - February 1, 2012
I want really Hillis back, if not just for the fact that it means we absolutely won’t draft Richardson.
That said, I’d be willing to bet that this “league source” is Hillis’ agent. He’s willing to give MKC the “scoop,” meanwhile drumming up some free publicity for his client and creating a more competitive market for the free agent. It’s buzz either way.
Even if the Browns front office was actually interested in resigning Hillis, it wouldn’t be smart to leak that information to the press so the player can possibly ask for more or have any kind of leverage like that. That’s why Heckert has been as vague as possible thus far.
Jon @ DBN - January 31, 2012
i have to say that this report (and i really apologize for the language, but i can’t express it any other way) strikes me as: no fucking shit, asshat. when she and grossi spent the entire season dumping on the possibility of the browns bringing hillis back it made me want to puke. this is a productive runner — when healthy — who can catch and block and is not likely to be hugely expensive. why in the world would they have ruled him out at any point?
DontCallMeJoey - January 31, 2012
It wasn’t her and Grossi. It was everyone, and it was because that was what people were hearing out of Berea. By the midpoint of the season, the Browns were reportedly fed up with Hillis. Your issue shouldn’t be with the PD.
Hillis sat out a game on his agent’s advice and needed a figurative cornering by his teammates telling him to get his head out of his ass. Obviously when healthy he’s great, but a front office considers more than his performance on the field. I want him back for likely the same reasons the Browns do: I’m willing to risk a repeat of 2011 because there’s no sense creating another hole on a team with so many, and headaches are easier to deal with if he’s playing like 2010.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I just don’t like how Hillis was portrayed as the sole bad guy in the situation. Both sides have handled the situation poorly. The front office needs better communication with its player.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
Granted. My larger point was that this disconnect was not a media creation as it seemed to be suggested above, and this softening towards Hillis is probably a simple business decision.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
I think the PD really blew the situation up into something that it really wasn’t. The “cornering” of Hillis by the team was, according to every player that spoke about it, a weekly leadership meeting. Not as big of a deal as the PD made it out to be.
Legoman0721 - February 1, 2012 via Android app
They probably talked him out of the advice that one agent gave him. Sitting out games and going at the Browns in the media isn’t going to get you a contract. After that point, Hillis shut his mouth and tried to play.
rufio - February 1, 2012
this is exactly my point. i’m not sure who the “everyone” you’re referring to is, but the loudest cries of “hillis is done in cleveland” that i heard came from the PD. it never made any sense to rule him out completely for precisely the reason you state. this is my point.
DontCallMeJoey - February 2, 2012
This much hate? Really. Can’t say, this comes as a surprise. How many of you haters know MKC on a personal level?
DawgsNHawgs - January 31, 2012
*(Insert obligatory Belt Buckle guy reference here.)
North Coast Flea - January 31, 2012
I’m sure MKC (and Grossi for that matter) is a decent human being. Heck, they could be great people for all I know. That doesn’t make them better journalists.
notthatnoise - January 31, 2012
Like notthatnoise said, I imagine she is a nice woman, but I’d like to see our PD reporters start getting some scoops and beat the national media to stories every now and then. It never happens. Instead I see a lot of stuff being written that seems like it was a tip from the organization itself on what to write.
Roger Dorn - January 31, 2012
I had a conversation with one of the local guys about that this year (a friend of a friend, if you will).
He bemoaned that the local beat has the attention of the players and the front office. They know each other and they trust each other at least in varying amounts. The national guys know the AGENTS, and the agents love to talk. The agents will give you scoops, because there’s always an angle to make their client look good or someone else’s look bad. But players are more tight lipped, for good reason. Not that they don’t talk through their agents, but again, the reporters that agents talk to are usually national.
That’s what he said, anyway.
nickjs21 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Yea, that would have been my guess as to how it worked. Yet, I still see a number of other markets with local people who have some sort of connect. I’d like to see our own coverage get the scoops sometimes.
Roger Dorn - February 1, 2012
one crazy possible solution could be: strike up a relationship with a couple of agents! i know … shocking.
DontCallMeJoey - February 2, 2012
I have no idea how this works but I imagine the writers living and working in Cleveland come in contact with players and front office members more often, living in Cleveland. At practice, in the locker room, etc. I doubt any of these agents live in Cleveland. They have other clients. Clients the national pundits might know. And the national guys live in Bristol, New York, etc., where it’s probably more common to interact with an agent.
I’m just spitballing. I agree with you, and this is the 21st century in terms of communication. But I bet, for better or worse (likely), it’s just easier to get your scoops from the hometown sources.
nickjs21 - February 2, 2012
i hear you. clearly, national exposure is better than local exposure and agents have clients that play for lots of teams, so i would imagine it’s tough-ish for local writers to develop deep relationships w/ the big agents. but, to your other point, it is 2012.
i would say that there are loads of small-time agents around who represent the “glue” guys on the browns, and i’m sure those guys would love to have an opportunity to voice themselves through the local press. like josh cribbs’ agents, who aren’t exactly international men of mystery.
last thing, specific to cleveland, is that until the last 5 years recently the global headquarters of the largest sports agency firm in the history of the world (img) was located at the corner of e. 9th and st. clair in downtown cleveland. shouldn’t have been so tough for cleveland writers to cultivate relationships w/ people in cleveland.
DontCallMeJoey - February 2, 2012
DontCallMeJoey - February 2, 2012
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Dawgs By Nature to post a comment.