ESPN's Mel Kiper regraded the 2011 NFL Draft today (insider article), and while he initially liked what the Browns did after the draft (he gave them a B+), the new grade for Cleveland improved to an A-. Kiper's reasoning is listed after the jump.
Post-draft grade: B+
Summary: Forgive the superlatives, but this draft could be a quiet monster in terms of getting value up and down the board. It's a fair critique to wonder about the value of a rookie class on a top team versus the time rookies can see for a noncontender such as Cleveland. And the Browns still need to get something done on offense if they want to compete, particularly at quarterback. But you at least can say the strength of this team is on defense, and the first two picks were a big part of that. No. 21 overall pick Phil Taylor started all 16 games and proved to be a great fit in this scheme. Jabaal Sheard looks like a future star and piled up 8.5 sacks along with forcing five fumbles. Greg Little needs to become more consistent, but, after missing a year of football, he showed hints of future stardom -- he had seven more catches than Julio Jones. Buster Skrine looks really good in what was already a good secondary, and Jason Pinkston gave the Browns 16 starts after being taken at No. 150. Owen Marecic and Jordan Cameron have potential. The offense couldn't do enough to make this team competitive, but it can't really take the shine off this class for me. Put it this way: If the Browns make the playoffs next season, it won't be because they had to replace any of these picks.
New grade: A-
When you look at the contributions the team's draft picks made this year, I think you'd definitely have to say that the picks received more playing time than the team's picks in the past. There ended up being five full-time starters in the draft class in Taylor, Sheard, Little, Marecic, and Pinkston. The rest of the picks at least saw the field at some point.
0 recs | 214 comments
just heard that Hillis has been cut by the Browns. Dont know how true it is but it makes sense.
BG_Dom84 - January 11, 2012
If you don’t give us a source, then it’s crap.
SpecialBrownie - January 11, 2012
It’s actually crap because it is not possible.
Roger Dorn - January 12, 2012
Right
SpecialBrownie - January 12, 2012
Go away please. Hillis is a free agent at the end of the season (which is already over for the Browns, in case you didn’t notice). There is zero reason they would cut him (if that were even possible).
TheDriveStillHurts - January 12, 2012
That’s one of the stupidest comments I’ve ever read on SBNation. You can’t cut a free agent.
johnf34 - January 12, 2012
we i would cited my little brother’s facebook page but i dont view it as credible, as far as i am concerned its a rumor.
BG_Dom84 - January 11, 2012
Yeah your little brothers facebook page isnt really gonna cut it in the credibility department.
besides, if that were true it would already be plastered all over here already within 10 mins of the news coming out. Maybe 5.
jonnyphoenix - January 11, 2012
You can’t cut someone who is no longer under a contract.
North Coast Flea - January 12, 2012
SpecialBrownie - January 12, 2012
I like that but roberto is a stab bot
sillflu - January 12, 2012
Now you’ve done it. Next thing you know, ESPN will have an article up citing “unconfirmed sources” that we’ve cut Hillis.
rufio - January 12, 2012
By any chance is your little brother Tony Grossi? If you are not sure, check to see how orange and full of $hit he is.
Off-the-Chain - January 12, 2012 via mobile
Freakin’ hilarious!
JustBob - January 13, 2012
This is even worse. You shouldn’t have said anything.
johnf34 - January 12, 2012
Its 11:44 PM MST, and “#6” is 1-for-6 in the 4th quarter and overtime and whining to the refs as the heat are crumbling under the pressure of a playoff atmosphere and losing to the Clippers.
It’s a good day.
rufio - January 12, 2012
Saw that. Totally awesome. Also his hair looks stupid.
Adrock2099 - January 12, 2012
Whose hair? Kiper or Lebrons? The Uncle Fester vs Joey Buttafuco?
or
or
Kosar19 - January 12, 2012
Don’t worry, he won’t have hair much longer.
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
LeBald.
Bernie19Kosar - January 13, 2012
A-? Psssh. That’s nothing. I got a crocodile in spelling!
Off-the-Chain - January 12, 2012 via mobile
A couple more drafts of finding talent like last years and this team will suprise a lot of folks.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
Yeah I may not personally like Tom Heckert but he’s good at his job.
notthatnoise - January 12, 2012
This latest interview made him seem a lot more likable. But that might just be because it was a lot more laid back atmosphere, he came across as down to earth. Also, he was getting questions about the upcoming FA and draft, not “Who’s to blame for ect.?”
Still, one good interview doesn’t erase his prior douchiness.
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
I will admit that i haven’t seen press conferences from him in previous years but where is this dislike coming from? He is clearly doing a great job rebuilding our roster, isn’t that what matters most?
BornAKardiacKid - January 12, 2012 via Android app
I think everyone just misses the paragon of class and virtue that was Phil Savage.
M.J.D. - January 12, 2012
Watch out — kwoog still lurks . . .
TheDriveStillHurts - January 12, 2012
F#@$ you, go root for Baltimore.
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
Yes, that is what matters. If he keeps drafting future All-Pro players, he can be as big an asshole as he wants and I won’t mind. The important thing is that he does his job well and it translates into winning games.
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
this is where I am. It’s not exactly like he has to deal with players/people on a personal level like Shurmur. People skills imo is more important for a HC and all I want my gm to do is know talent.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
He was douchey at some point? I mean, I know it’s douchey to hog the buffett but…
SpecialBrownie - January 12, 2012
He threw Mangini under the bus. He made observations on Jayme Mitchell that turned to be dead wrong and were probably said just to further his case against Mangini.
Through Sheard, we know Heckert has an eye for DEs. The same guy said Mitchell " was by far our best pass rusher."
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
he also said we would be “just fine” at WR this past season.
PaduaDSP - January 12, 2012
Ah, but on the WR scale “just fine” comes in right below “so-so”.
JustBob - January 13, 2012
I rate “just fine” as slightly above “so-so”.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
I have a stealth /sarc tag in there.
JustBob - January 13, 2012
I was just going along with the joke.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
That was pretty lame — also dissed Marcus Benard with that comment.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 12, 2012
Don’t forget that we have the best LB core in the league.
North Coast Flea - January 12, 2012
Ah, yes. Can’t forget that gem!
Simmsinns - January 12, 2012
I really just don’t like the way Tom Heckert is rebuilding this roster. It seems like he is doing it in a very haphazard inefficient method. The trade down last year was great until he squandered some it’s value by trading back up to grab Taylor. His absolute refusal to supplement the draft with key free agents also is a bit puzzling. He says McCoy can be a franchise QB but gave him almost nothing to work with on offense. The pace of the rebuild and complete lack of urgency is more frustrating than anything else for me.
PaduaDSP - January 12, 2012
The Browns were in pretty piss poor shape. We have already gotten much younger and infused some talent. We just haven’t invested those picks into the offense yet. I think what he has been doing is great. Rebuilding a team with crap talent takes time. There is no point in rushing out and grabbing big time FA. He wanted to keep that salary cap room clear for resigning players that are worth a crap and that we want to keep here in Cleveland.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
great? I think he has been doing about as good or bad as many other NFL GMs during his time here. I think if he were doing a great job we would have seen more than 4 wins and 218 points score last year.
PaduaDSP - January 12, 2012
Exactly.W e got a few role players, but there is not one single player that he’s added that’s going to take us over that “hump”. Like you said, he has essentially done what every other GM has done for this team since expansion.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 12, 2012
He’s still the best GM by resume we’ve had but that’s not saying a lot. I think he can get the job done, I just doubt if what he’s done so far exemplifies that.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 12, 2012
Well if we grade him compared to the last 4 GM’s in Cleveland, I’d give him an A.
J. W. - January 12, 2012
I really like his 2nd round picks from this year and like the pick of Haden. The rest admittedly is somewhat a mixed bag.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
i think TJ Ward is going to need to have a really good bounce back year in 2012. He was probably one of the most disappointing players on the Browns for me in 2011.
PaduaDSP - January 14, 2012
He was also injured for a large portion of the season.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
Injured, I thought he played well still too. He’s not going to be a game changer type like Polamalu and Reed, he is more of a classic run helping safety, similar to who Mangini compared him to, Lawyer Milloy.
Roger Dorn - January 14, 2012
I know a lot of people here are critical of tackle numbers (myself included) but they do have some value, and TJ Ward was second on our team in tackles when he got hurt. They weren’t 20 yards down field either, someone had a fanshot about it during the season.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
He’s a good player.
Roger Dorn - January 15, 2012
exactly. He played well when healthy.
bross09 - January 14, 2012
That’s the only reason I was really disappointed with him. I know injury is arbitrary (somewhat) but you have to stay on the field to make an impact for your team. We missed Ward’s impact this year.
rufio - January 15, 2012
You can’t correctly evaluate him. The defensive switch changed his game.
SpecialBrownie - January 14, 2012
Get us over the hump? We’re just trying to get close to the hump right now.
HenryDawg - January 12, 2012
Aren’t we all….Heeyooo!
Gabe Durrant - January 13, 2012
We are 4-12 because our offense couldn’t score against a nursing home full of great grandmothers. We didn’t exactly go crazy picking up players on that side of the ball. Little is turning out good. Defensively, nearly all our picks are turning out from last year as starter caliber players. What more do you want? You only get so many picks each draft, and you can only get so many FA’s due to a salary cap. Yes, I say great.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
right our offense can’t score against a nursing home full of old ladies yet Tom Heckert hasn’t don’t one thing to improve the offense in 2 off seasons except add a RB masquerading as a WR and RB that never played a down for us. You say we can only add so many free agents because of salary cap restrictions yet with about 30 million in cap space this past offseason the Browns added Usama Young and a 3rd down RB, seems like maybe we could have done more. I just don’t think he is doing a terribly efficient job of rebuilding the team. In 3 yearrs the Lions went from 0-16 to 10-6 in 2 years Tom Heckert has taken us from 5-11 to 4-12, I am sorry I don’t see us making the monumentally huge jump to playoff team next year.
PaduaDSP - January 12, 2012
I get what your saying, I guess I just never expected playoffs in 2-3yrs. It would be nice, but as old as we were and the lack of talent I just assumed it would take longer. You are correct about offense though. But both sides needed addressed, I guess he just started with the defense. I’m assuming this will be a heavy offensive draft ,and hopefully FA, for us. If that doesn’t happen, I will certainly begin agreeing with you though.
Kimble_79 - January 12, 2012
You did expect us to be better than the Bengals though right?
The Licensed Pessimist - January 12, 2012
I also expected Andy Dalton to suck. These two things are related. The Bengals are a playoff team, so no, I didn’t expect us to be better than that.
notthatnoise - January 12, 2012
What I’m saying is that people keep saying “I didn’t expect a playoff team”, yet everyone expected us to be better than the Bengals. Well the Bengals have exceeded the browns by a large margin. So there is something the bengals did that we’re not doing.
Not only that, but for the fact that they’ve turn it around over-night speaks considerably on the “2-3 years down the line” excuse that has been used for the last decade
The Licensed Pessimist - January 12, 2012
What the Bengals did was hit on an all world WR and a pretty decent QB to feed him. They also had a coach do a hell of a job with a team that he has been coaching for 9 years. So, it’s a little luck and a little “out-organization’d”.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 12, 2012
The Bengals also didn’t beat a team with a winning record. They were the 2007 Browns, but they got to back into the playoffs.
woodsmeister - January 13, 2012
Pretty much right. The 2007 Browns actually won more games, but did not make the playoffs.
Roger Dorn - January 13, 2012
if I am not mistaken the Patriots didnt beat a team with a winning record either.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
a lot of that has to do with 7 of their 16 games against teams exactly at .500 and only 2 games against teams above .500. Funny enough, they were 7-0 against teams at .500 while Cincy was 1-1
bross09 - January 13, 2012
The Bengals, much like the 49ers, didn’t turn it around over night.
notthatnoise - January 13, 2012
Given the Bengals history, I’m not so quick to say that they’ve turned it around. Under-achievers of the decade.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
I disagree, I consider the playoffs a pretty significant turnaround.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
Tell that to the 02 Browns.
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
We were 7-9 the previous season.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
16-16 for those two season, given the talent we had then, especially on the OL, was remarkable. We’re lucky we had Tim Couch at QB.
Dawg Nuts - January 14, 2012
Kelly Holcomb played some of those games though.
Roger Dorn - January 15, 2012
2 of them in 2002, and he was 1-1.
Dawg Nuts - January 15, 2012
and was great in the playoff game!
Roger Dorn - January 15, 2012
I’ll give you that. F#@&ing Northcutt!
Dawg Nuts - January 15, 2012
And double digit losses in 03 and 04.
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
I just don’t consider the 2 win improvement from 2001 to 2002 a turnaround. Not like the 5 win jump with the Bengals 2010 to 2011.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
I’m not sure if you got what I’m saying here. Maybe you did and I’m not getting what you are saying, but I don’t consider making the playoffs once a turnaround, much like the 02 Browns.
I guess a case could be made that they aren’t the same team that has under-achieved as they’ve have different players at most positions from what they had only a couple years ago, but they still have the same whack-job owner and the still the same mediocre HC.
The bottom line is I’m not buying into it until they show success over more than one season.
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
This is where the disagreement lies.
But I’d actually rather have their whack-job owner than Randy constantly-hires-shit Lerner.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
Unrelated to the owners, but the ‘07 Browns had a bigger change in record than these Bengals. They didn’t make the playoffs, but we all saw how great that “turnaround” was. I think that example more accurately shows what NCF is saying here.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
Call me crazy, but I don’t think the 2007 Browns are like the 2011 Bengals. But that’s just my opinion.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
Yup. Let’s remember that the Bengals have also made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. They have a better coach and a better all around set of talent. Last year’s Bengals were expected to do better, but Carson Palmer had checked out, TO was a distraction, and Chad 85 was over the hill. They have a lot of other talent on that team.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
Ah but that gets back to the original point doesn’t it? I’m not saying the Bengals aren’t for real, I’m saying they didn’t turn it around over night.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
I still don’t think the Bengals are for real.
rufio - January 15, 2012
I don’t think the Bengals are for real.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
This is one of the most hyperbole filled statements I have seen on here in quite sometime.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
Which part?
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
I mean, the guy did basically stage a coup in trading away Carson face Palmer, so I’ll admit whack-job might be a stretch.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
I presume the part about Lerner.
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
The fact that you would prefer the worst owner in the NFL over Lerner.
The guy never spends any money and has hamstrung his franchise at every turn. I hardly think the fact that the Raiders were idiots absolves his turd history.
Mike Brown is the worst owner in sports. The is no way in hell I want him here, let alone trade Lerner for him.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
I still fail to see the intentional and excessive exaggeration in my comment.
I’d have considered Al Davis the worst owner in sports, but he’s no longer a contender, but Mike Brown is definitely up there so that’s saying something.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
I can’t believe that someone would actually want Mike Brown as their owner.
The guy who never signed a rookie on time because he was nickel and diming them. The guy who won’t build his football team an indoor practice facility because of the cost. The guy who won’t pay players bonuses if they talk poorly about the organization.
The guy whose penny pinching ways have cost him numerous free agent signings (Warren Sapp for example) and trades (Shaun Rogers).
So, I assumed you were being sarcastic when you made your statement.
Bernie19Kosar - January 15, 2012
I don’t want Mike Brown and I don’t want Randy Lerner.
Simmsinns - January 15, 2012
Mike Brown was too cheap to even pay to share UC’s indoor facility.
HenryDawg - January 15, 2012
The question is when did that “turning point” begin for each team. You can claim that it’s been in development for years in SF, but how is their situation any different than ours? They sucked for years, acquired players over the course, was held back by previous FOs, they got a new coach with 2 completely new systems. Now they’re one of the best teams in the league.
Our story is the exact same, yet we’re nowhere close.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 13, 2012
How long has the current GM been in SF?
rufio - January 13, 2012
You are overlooking the fact that Harbaugh inherited a team that had talented players.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
We’ve shipped out a lot of first rounders: Edwards, Winslow, Quinn, Wimbley. San Fran has a lot of first rounders contributing to their success. That’s a big difference.
Legoman0721 - January 14, 2012 via Android app
but by most accounts they didn’t have a QB when the season started, Alex Smith looks like a completely different player with Harbaugh as his coach.
PaduaDSP - January 14, 2012
I’ve seen a bunch of 49ers games the last few years and Alex Smith does not look that much different. They are calling plays more to his strengths and he is cutting down on some of the mistakes he has made, but a “completely different player”? Nope.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
They invested the first overall pick in him!
rufio - January 15, 2012
Didn’t we have talented player supposedly?
The Licensed Pessimist - January 14, 2012
Joe Haden?
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
Joe Thomas.
rufio - January 15, 2012
Not nearly as many as SF.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
you mean Beau Bell?
bross09 - January 15, 2012
bross09 - January 13, 2012
Yes, but there are quite a few exceptions that you have to take in there. One being we had no clue how quickly our guys would pick up on this new offensive system with a short offseason. Another being Cincy was supposed to suck according to everyone this year. People were wrong. Everyone underestimated Dalton and Cincy in general. So that isn’t a good comparison to me.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
Also that we should not have looked like the Bad News Bears in our first game against Cincy. We easily should have won that game.
You know, if we could break the defensive huddle.
rufio - January 13, 2012
The Lions had losing seasons for seven years prior to that too. So, it’s hard to say they just turned it around in 3 years.
RyanBr - January 12, 2012
The Lions also already had Calvin Johnson. A team gets a LOT better when they already have a major piece to their offense.
BrownDawg1409 - January 12, 2012
And look what he’s done to the D in only two drafts.
North Coast Flea - January 12, 2012
Let’s see, that would be Brandon Jackson, FA signing, something you wanted.
So what’s your beef? That Heckert didn’t use his Magic 8-ball to predict that he would end up on IR? As for the Detroit comparison, you neglected to mention the 6-10 season last year. There’s also one other striking similarity – they put two high-round picks into their defensive line.
JustBob - January 13, 2012
Has TLP started a new account?
bross09 - January 13, 2012
Viagra.
Villeslgr - January 12, 2012
Mental images just ensued that I would like to quickly forget. Thanks Vill!
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
yes, because the best way to judge a gm after 1-2 years is W/L. You gotta look at the players he brought in, specifically (since this is the topic), the players he drafted. Getting Sheard in the 2nd round should be enough to shut you the hell up.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
FA is a two way street and without some talent already on the roster, no big name is going to want to come here. The Bunkly trade comes to mind.
North Coast Flea - January 12, 2012
Yes, well Bunkley is a douche, and hopefully not worth a footnote in Denver. Heckert got the defense younger, smarter, and more talent infused.
J. W. - January 12, 2012
Yeah, you know, drafting good players, building up the lines and drafting OL late as 1000 sportswriters suggested we do for every GM before Heckert, doing things the right way and building through the draft…he’s doing a terrible job.
rufio - January 13, 2012
Personally, I like building by signing a free agent center when we already had a very good center, by trading away draft picks for a pretty-boy QB, by trading away our only other high draft picks for fat defensive linemen who don’t really fit in our scheme (and giving them huge contracts to boot), and by then trading up in the late rounds for crap that couldn’t’ make another team. That’s the way I like to build a winner!
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
Kwoog is going to rage so hard.
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
jlsclarity - January 13, 2012
Exactly! I’m completely at a loss on why TLP and Padua are saying Heckert has done exactly what every other GM has done or that they aren’t convinced on him yet. We have got younger and more talented IMO quickly on defense. I think this is the year to focus on offense and then see what happens next year. Unfortunately in the NFL, patience is a double edged sword. Creating a perennial good team takes patience, however patience is also looked down on in this league.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
5-11 and 4-12 come to mind as reasons Tom Heckert hasn’t done a great job. He is ultimately responsible for the product on the field and the product on the field has been crappy. I understand he is operating at a disadvantage because of what he started with but I don’t think he has helped himself much by ignoring free agency and not upgrading positions that clearly needed upgrading, like WR, RT, FS, RDE etc and instead choosing to upgrade other positions less in need of upgrading like SS, TE, DT, RB, etc. I am also frustrated by comments from him like “our WR situation will be just fine this year” and then having to watch the absolute crap fest at WR all season long and then Heckert comes out after the season and says “well yeah of course we need to add playmakers” It seems like he just now found out that Robiskie and Massaquoi suck.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Let’s look at our last two drafts by him…
2010 (in order of pick) Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Montario Hardesty, Colt McCoy, Shawn Lauvao, Larry Asante, Carlton Mitchell, Clifton Geathers
2011 (in order of pick) Phil Taylor, Jabaal Sheard, Greg Little, Jordan Cameron, Owen Marecic, Buster Skrine, Jason Pinston, Eric Hagg
2010-I count 5 starters from this draft alone. I’m not saying they are all-worldly, but they were better than what we had at that position at the time. You could count more, but they are more on the fence starters.
2011-I count 6 starters from this draft. Same thing as I said above for 2010 applies here.
FA moves have been limited because we wanted to resign our players that are worth a shit. Due to the new contract in the NFL, experienced players who are proven were going to get paid more. We wanted to be sure to have cap space for re-signing these guys. See:Thomas, Joe. On top of that, you would be hard pressed to bring a FA in to Cleveland. I love the browns, but Cleveland isn’t the nicest NFL city to live in for one, and we are not going to the playoffs overnight for two. So, the only way to bring in those guys is to float big money their way. There is no point in doing that until we can get more talent on our team. Heckert is making all the right moves dude. It sucks, but your just going to need more patience.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
you see 5 starters from the 2010 draft? I see 3, Haden Ward and Lauvao, obviously McCoy has started for us but I don’t think he is the long term answer at QB. You see 6 starters in 2011? I see 4, Taylor, Sheard, Little(but as a #2 WR) and Pinkson (by default). Replacing Lawrence Vickers with Owen Marecic is a poor allocation of resources IMO. We wanted to use our cap space to retain our own players worth a darn but then let one of our better players walk and were forced to replace him with a worse player IMO. Outside of Joe Thomas what players on the roster are going to be due for a huge contract in the next 2-3 years? Tom Heckert used our cap space to resign Chris Gocong, Jayme Mitchell and Evan Moore, clearly 3 guys we couldn’t survive without.
I don’t want to break the bank in free agency and go all Phil Savage but bringing in a quality free agent or two could have helped this team win more games and accelerate the rebuilding process, instead we went after one of the worst FS available and 3rd down RB. I really don’t want to get dragged into a debate about which free agents I would have gone after because every player I choose will get nitpicked to death and poo poo’d so it’s really not worth it. You think he is doing a great job, I think he is doing an ok job but that he could be doing much better.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
These are some good points.
Roger Dorn - January 13, 2012
Not really.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
If you say, we should “bring in a quality free agent or two” — tell me who. Who was available last year that was worth signing? The free agents Heckert got seemed to work out well in the limited role we needed. Dmitri Patterson was (surprisingly) an upgrade over Eric Wright. And as for letting Vickers walk, if you want to spend money on a free agent, full back is not the place I want to see it. Jury is still out on Marecic but I will tell you that Jim Harbaugh was pissed we got him ahead of him — he wanted nothing more for that guy to be on his team. He seems to know something.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
Also (to continue replying to myself), we signed plenty of free agents the year before, and they were really smart signings — not breaking the bank but getting value. Eg Ben Watson.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
2010-Haden, Ward, McCoy, Lauvao, and Hardesty have all started.
2011-Taylor, Sheard, Little, Cameron, Marecic, Skrine (nickel), and I think even Pinkston started at one point.
I did not say they are all worldly, but when you can get 11 starters out of two drafts, especially considering where some of these guys are drafted (post 1st rounders), its pretty damn good to me.
That’s fine…agree to disagree on Heckert though.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
well that is a very generous definition of “starter”
by this definition Eric Mangini got like 8 or 9 starters out of the 2009 draft.
Mack, Robo, Mo Mass, Elam, Coleman, then CJ Mosley, Kaluka Maiva and David Veikune probably all started at some point.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Robo and MoMass<Little Better talent evaluation
I guess I’m throwing in a touch of talent as well. But yes, you are correct based on that definition.
IMO, Mangini drafts<<<<<<<<Heckert drafts in talent level.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
no argument here on that point. I just think the generous definition you used to define starter skews the argument greatly in favor of Heckert being better than he really is. We can go round and round all day. I see your point and I think you see mine so we can move on.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Yep, in the end it won’t matter when we win the SB next year.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
myself and many others will be eating huge buckets of crow if that happens.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Lol, I just meant it won’t matter to us at all about this if we do that. Not trying to say your wrong and we are going to win it all. Know what I mean?
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
no, I gotchya. Just pointing out that all the “non-believers” will look foolish if the Browns win 11 games and the SB in 2012.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Only 11? Pffffft.
Dawg Nuts - January 14, 2012
What a pessimist!
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
There’s a reason he doesn’t have a license.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
No, he’s still wrong. Veikune never came close to starting. Maiava may have started a game this year, not sure. CJ Mosley; huh?
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
I’m pretty sure Maiava was starting after Fujita got hurt.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
Not to mention using the definition of starter to apply equally to all positions is pointless. Butch Davis drafted a Long snapper who started for us, but should he get equal credit based on the number of starters as the evaluator?
Bottom line is that none of these GMs have gotten us a QB and until they get one, they are all failures.
Roger Dorn - January 13, 2012
Veikune never started. Ever. Even with how bad the teams were, he was too awful to start. You can’t count Coleman, Elam, and mosely because none were drafted and all had started at some point.
His definitions is generous, your definition of drafts is ridiculous.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
Heh, it’s the FA/trade argument all over again.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
Assante also started, just not for us.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
For whatever reason, you equate “being a starter” as “being a good player” which is ridiculous. FOr example, STL has 5 starters on their line. And they all suck.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 13, 2012
H&H have done a great job at locking up our young players (Thomas and Rubin earlier in the year come to mind) while keeping cap space, so when we are a player or two away from making some noise in the AFC, we will be able to.
It’s called cap management. Good teams do it.
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
Also, just to address the WR situation, what do you expect him to say before the season?
“Yeah, our WR’s suck, but we don’t wanna spend big money on FA players.”
There is nothing wrong with saying that we need to add playmakers. It doesn’t single out any specific group of players like the above saying would. It’s more than obvious to fans and the media that our WR’s suck. You really think a guy that is a proven GM doesn’t know that. C’mon man!
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
in all honesty, I don’t expect him to say anything, I expect him to do something to improve a position that my 12 month old son knew was terrible heading into the 2011 season. I mean if we all knew it he knew it right? There were players available better than Brian Robiskie that were affordable right? Evaluating our talent better and getting Jordan Norwood in their sooner instead of hoping Robo magically turned into a good WR would have been doing something. Doing nothing and then telling everyone it will be fine is my real issue.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
How? Tell me how? Who should we have signed that was available? Give me some names. He did address the position by drafting Greg Little in the second round. That was a great value pick — you yourself agree that Julio Jones was worth trading away so what do you say he should have done? Used his magic wand to turn Carlton Mitchell into Brandon Marshall?
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
Duh…Sidney Rice. Championship!
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
No, you have the wrong guy there.
rufio - January 13, 2012
Tom Heckert is not responsible for the players on the 53 man roster?
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
SMH.
North Coast Flea - January 13, 2012
The players on the roster are not “the product on the field.”
rufio - January 13, 2012
Heckert’s responsibility is building the team for winning in the long run. Shurmur’s responsibility is building the team for winning now. Heckert is doing a great job with the defense in the draft. Hopefully this year is lots of offense. Shurmur is the one who needs to improve the record in the present.
Doc's Kid - January 13, 2012
right but Heckert is ultimately responsible for the players Shumur has to work with, garbage in, garbage out right?
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Heckert is responsible for the players, Shurmur is responsible for coaching those players. You don’t have a team if you give great coaching to nobody, and you don’t have a team if you walk 53 really talented players out on a football field without any preparation.
Holmgren is the guy who is “ultimately responsible for the product on the field.”
rufio - January 13, 2012
you can’t completely rebuild a team overnight.
The Ravens won 10 games their first 2 years and a total of 16 over the first year. That doesn’t mean Ozzie sucked as a gm, in fact he got 2 future HOFers his first year in Ogden and Ray Lewis.
Also in the first 3 years he drafted Peter Boulware, Jermaine Lewis, Jamie Sharper, Duane Starks, Kim Herring, and got Priest Holmes as a UDFA.
In 3 years, that is quite a good foundation for a team.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
This gets tiring. The constant complainers who can’t see past the record of a crappy team and look at where the flashes of talent are, see how they’re building this team and just complain. They’ve spent the last two years building a respectable defense. Can it get better? of course it can, and probably will. They’ve just started to implement their offense last year and have already said they’re going to address that side of the ball more starting this year. The snap my fingers, why don’t we have a super bowl team yet? crowd is getting old. It’s clear that they’re building a system thats eventually going to be plug and play but grabbing high priced free agents for a year or two is not the way to build a long term successful team. I love how people look around the league and question why the Bengals or the Ravens are ahead of us, its because they’ve had the same coach for almost a decade and built the core of their team through the draft. Just relax and enjoy the building process for what it is.
HenryDawg - January 13, 2012
All. Of. This.^
North Coast Flea - January 14, 2012
Indeeb.
Legoman0721 - January 14, 2012 via Android app
Agree on the patience and don’t rush into free agency. That said, I remain skeptical until we fill the QB position.
Roger Dorn - January 14, 2012
Indeeb.
Dawg Nuts - January 14, 2012
Who did Heckert pass on that was available as a QB? Serious question. Do you think we should have taken Andy Dalton with our late first round pick? Should we have taken Tim Tebow or Jimmy Clausen the year before? Unless you can point to a QB that Heckert missed out on, I don’t see what you are trying to say.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
I think all he means is that we should draft a QB. That’s how I took it.
Dawg Nuts - January 14, 2012
I took it as “all the talent-building and system-building in the world is worthless unless you have or can find a QB.” Which is true to a point, but I think if you are very good at building a team you should get at least 2 chances at a first round QB.
rufio - January 15, 2012
Ozzie struck out with Boller, and Flacco is getting by but is no home run. Still, getting rid of Ozzie would be insane.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 15, 2012
Like I said, at least two chances.
rufio - January 15, 2012
Yes, this. I am not saying move on, just pointing out they haven’t gotten the QB yet. They need to get him soon.
Roger Dorn - January 15, 2012
Haphazard? It seemed he took a pretty deliberate approach to getting guys to make the switch to the 4-3 possible. The Greg Little pick still looks a bit iffy (to me), but I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear that after that they were just picking the guy with the highest grade remaining on the board – which I’ve heard several folks say is a pretty good strategy for building a team up.
JustBob - January 13, 2012
I think Little breaks out next year. They took a guy with very little college experience and just pure talent and threw him into the X spot. Yeah he dropped a few balls but lots of quality receivers do. He fell into a groove pretty quickly though and I can see him really developing into a premier player. He has all the attributes, just need to give him a little time.
HenryDawg - January 13, 2012
I agree on the breakout, especially if we draft a true #1 WR this year. I think all of our receivers have been playing a spot too high for their skills. Maybe Little can become a #1, but right now he’s not. Getting him against a weaker defender will improve his play along with the improvements he makes this offseason (hopefully). It would also remove a lot of pressure on him which could help his drops.
Doc's Kid - January 13, 2012
Its all about creating mismatches. I agree, Little kills it with a deep threat on the other side.
HenryDawg - January 14, 2012
Haha at “dropped a few balls”.
The problem is he doesn’t have the attributes. He doesn’t have speed, he doesn’t have catching ability. He doesn’t have route running skills, and he doesn’t have quickness.
What attributes does he have that will make him break out?
The Licensed Pessimist - January 14, 2012
You act like he has no ability whatsoever. He does have speed, he does have quickness, he does have the ability to catch the ball. He doesn’t have elite skills in these categories, but his size, strength, and running after the catch are all very good. The talent is there for him to become a good WR.
Legoman0721 - January 15, 2012 via Android app
every single free agent that would have made an impact on this team at a position of need was way overpaid in free agency. You think the Seahawks love the fact that Sidney Rice has a 40 million dollar contract?
He “squandered” a midround pick to move up to guarantee he would get his guy. I am fine with that.
You know who had a “quick rebuild”? mangini when he filled the D with older, low ceiling players.
bross09 - January 13, 2012
Not to goo all Tony Grossi, but in retrospect the trade down by Mangini was a fleecing by the Jets. How did we not get a first round pick from the next year for that*? Instead, we got a bunch of junk the Jets were probably happy to part with? Brett Ratliff? Are you serious?
*Look at trade ups of this magnitude — for QBs especially — and there is always a first round pick from next year involved. Brady Quinn — we gave up a first rounder even though we were only moving up 9 spots or so from the second to the late 1st. The Ravens did the same for Kyle Boller. Look at what we got for Julio — wow! Mangini just basically gave that pick away.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
I agree. I think a lot of it was mangini overvaluing former players who mostly turned out to be role players. I think he figured grab a couple starters and maybe a QB (ratliff) to take a flier on instead of like a 4th round pick.
It was sure a fleecing though and even at the time it seemed like we didn’t get a ton. Granted it was a shitty draft and Sanchez sucks…but still…
bross09 - January 14, 2012
Sanchez is a hundred times better than Boller and Quinn.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
I agree. So much better than those guys, but in hindsight we got a better player (mack) for much less money. We still should have gotten way more, but I am glad we don’t have that overrated pretty boy.
bross09 - January 14, 2012
I think its because Mangini isn’t really an NFL caliber coach or front office guy. Sorry hope that doesn’t cause a flame war but its true.
HenryDawg - January 14, 2012
I don’t think he’s and NFL quality front office guy.
notthatnoise - January 14, 2012
Agreed. I think Mangini would be just fine if paired with a good FO.
Legoman0721 - January 15, 2012 via Android app
Probably the worst draft in NFL history and I think the talent evaluators knew as much. That pick just wasn’t as valuable as normal. My guess is he took the best offer.
Roger Dorn - January 15, 2012
Rome wasn’t built in one day.
H&H have put almost all of their draft picks in the defense, the effect of what we are seeing now.
You can point the finger at McCoy and say that they haven’t found their QB, but that was a lotto ticket that didn’t pan out. No harm done. H&H are building this team the right way, but you have to have some patience.
Bernie19Kosar - January 13, 2012
“Rome wasn’t built in one day” just reminds me of that marvelous remix video.
rufio - January 13, 2012
Not 5… Not 6… Not 7…
Bernie19Kosar - January 14, 2012
0?
emily522 - January 14, 2012
Bingo!
Simmsinns - January 15, 2012
Can’t wait until he falls apart in even more 4th quarters.
rufio - January 15, 2012
I’m excited for the annual rite of summer, when Lebron melts down when it matters most.
Dawg Nuts - January 15, 2012
Help us, Chicago Bulls, you’re our only hope.
Simmsinns - January 15, 2012
I’m actually pretty hopeful that a team like the Clippers or OKC or Dallas or the Lakers could help us out. But I do love that Noah appears to be some little animal in this image.
rufio - January 15, 2012
I’d rather the Heat not even make the Finals.
Simmsinns - January 15, 2012
If Heckert is offered essentially the same deal as last year’s ATL deal … for example, Detroit offered their 1, 2, 4 in 2012 and 1, 4 in 2013’s draft for our #4, should he accept?
spacer - January 13, 2012
why would Detroit do that?
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
that’s irrelevant …why did Atlanta do it last year? but ok, maybe they think adding one elite player would propel them to a championship … Blackmon or Richardson or Claiborne … Atlanta was willing to give up that much to move up to #6. If you’re Heckert, are you willing to drop back again?
spacer - January 13, 2012
In a heartbeat if it was my decision. Adding talent across the board vs a star player is always my choice.
Kimble_79 - January 13, 2012
I don’t necessarily disagree, but at some point we need that star player in order to jump to the next level, SB contender.
Dawg Nuts - January 14, 2012
I agree, I guess what I’m saying is that I’d love to add more talent everywhere first.
Kimble_79 - January 15, 2012
Depends on who is available at 4 and whether H&H think they can still pull him later in the top 10 (by using some of that haul to trade up). If H&H think a franchise player/All-Pro at a position of need is available at 4 and only available there then no way. If not, yes. That is a huge pull and gives us plenty of ammo to move back up into the top 10 if necessary to grab someone.
TheDriveStillHurts - January 14, 2012
Depending on the combine, we might not want to give up on Blackmon…but seriously it would be difficult to pass up this deal again. I think I heard that this draft may be projected as much stronger than last year(?). Does that mean its deeper? Or better players up front? Anyone have any thoughts on that?
jlsclarity - January 13, 2012
Depends who is on the board.
rufio - January 13, 2012
I say no. Except for maybe if it’s Kalil and it’s the best offer we get for the franchise LT.
Think about it, we’re talking about trading one of these four: Luck, RG3, Blackmon, Kalil. This isn’t the 2011 6 overall pick. I want a lot more for one of those 4 guys.
Simmsinns - January 14, 2012
it’s irrelevant to give a scenario in which that could happen? For example, Detroit wants Matt Kalil and he somehow drops to #4. Is RG3 still on the board? how about Justin Blackmon? Have the three teams in front of us lost their minds and Andrew Luck is still available? It’s not really as black and white as if we are offered this should we take it, IMO.
PaduaDSP - January 13, 2012
Actually, I believe that is black and white. Would you do it? in which scenario would you? Which would you not? Not that we are answering for management to choose our decision then, knowing more than we would know now – or at all since we arent management. But isnt this what we do? Sit around and talk about (wild) scenarios and hope and wait for next year?
jlsclarity - January 13, 2012
I agree with this, you don’t know until you know what you’re trading. Clearly they didn’t see Julio as a game changing receiver so they got out and I think in the long term they picked up a receiver with as much long term potential as Julio in Greg Little, plus an extra 1 which they could use this year to draft a franchise QB or just plug more holes.
HenryDawg - January 13, 2012
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