Dawgs By Nature

Meh.

You too.

LondonBrown - January 1, 2012 reply

Go Cavs.

TIGGER

Go Lakers!!

By the way, we really like Mike Brown. He’s a better coach than I thought. I think he may be trying to be overly critical of Kobe because of his rep with LeBron, but Kobe seems OK with it.

Until Derek Fisher starts getting DNP-CD’s he’s not a good coach.

Mike Brown is a great coach. He got a bad rap here for no reason. Everyone pinned LeBron’s failings on him.

I think many would say his offense left something to be desired sometimes, but his defense was good.

Everyone pinned LeBron’s failings on ~~him.~~ Dan Gilbert, despite doing everything LeBron asked of him.

Players play, coaches coach, owners own.

LeBron is a failing, and he brings those around him down. BE has a better attitude than LaBron, and that says alot.

Mike Brown was a good coach, not a great one. Great defensive coach, poor offensive coach. Not always the best at game management, but it’s hard to be good at that. The only glaring negative for me was half-time adjustments and coming out of time outs.

Byron Scott looks pretty good too though.

he isn’t awful like some in Cleveland will tell you, but I don’t know if I see him leading that team to the title. For your sake (and for the sake of beating Lebron), i hope he proves me wrong.

Who is “we”?

Dang. Second. Really happy with how the team played to close out the season compared to last year. It made a difference to me.

I agree so much, they had a brutal schedule and yeah they lost them all, but they were in most of them.

With the way the defense played, if there were any semblance of an offense they would have won.

We would have been 8-8.

Little ended the year with an awful catch % of times he had been targeted. Cribbs with one of his best career days catching the ball no doubt.

Was Little thrown to even 1 time?

Box said 5 targets.

few of those were good passes. One was the hail mary at the end and it’s not really gonna be fair to judge him for that one.

I’ve seen enough recaps to see Little go wide open on the backside and our QBs not have the sense to even look at him because they’re too busy staring down someone else. We need a QB who can see the whole field.

This.

Luck or RG3??

If you have a chance at one of them who would you choose?

Luck. Next question. (But we won’t have a chance at him.)

Blackmon or Claiborne??

Pick? I would take Claiborne

I certainly hope we get an impact player on the O side of the ball – but if he is best available – will accept it.

Definitely Blackmon. We already have Haden and Brown. Plus Patterson and Skrine too.

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

???

Haden = Great
Brown = Marginal
Patterson = ?
Skrine = ?

I would give all of your left nuts to grab 3 to 5 inpact players out of this draft, & improve on both sides of the ball. That being said, I would not use any of my picks on a QB, but I would make everyone else think that I’m going to unless I get some good picks in a trade.

You say you want impact players. But you don’t want to draft the playing position with the most impact of all?

I think you underestimate our corners.

I have to agree. I was unsure of brown going into this year, but pass defense was very good. Granted passing was not our opponents game plan with our run defense, but they were pretty well ranked

SBP - January 2, 2012 reply

Our pass D was definitely ranked higher than it deserved, and our safeties suck. But our corners are fine. We can quibble about just how good Joe Haden is, but he’s good. Brown starts on most teams. Patterson was a nice surprise, and skrine has some potential.

Our pass defense was a product of our weak run defense. Teams ran on us so they did not need to pass. So yes over rated. That being said, our pass defense was improved. Still a long way to go

Joe Haden’s pass breakups beg to differ with you. Our corners made good plays on the ball and broke up quite a few passes this season. You can’t attribute those to our lousy run defense.

Legoman0721 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

Haden’s only problem was that he would shut out the team’s best WR for the entire game except one huge play. He’s only in his second year and most CBs need 3-4 to be a true shut down corner.

Are true shut down corner’s actually a real thing in this age of the NFL?

Good point, Revis is probably as close as they come.

so teams had the 8th lowest yards per pass attempt because teams focused on the run? That doesn’t exactly make sense. You are looking at yards and saying we are overrated, but I don’t think NTN is looking purely at yards because you are right in that aspect. However, we were still good on a per-play basis.

Brown starts on any team that doesn’t have a borderline #1 CB playing at #2 (so not in Philly or Cincy for example)

Brown is much better than marginal. Without paying close attention, he can look marginal because he occasionally gets beat, but to see him at his best, check out the 2nd Ravens game. Patterson was competent when he had to play significant time when Haden was hurt. Skrine as a 4th QB is really good.

I think CB is one of our best units. While it’s not great it’s far from horrific like most NFL secondaries.

Our CBs are very good.

Brown needs to be replaced

Why?

I think he was late on a lot of big plays this year. It was the knock on him in Philly. He Plays better in a nickle. He needs alot of safety help one on one and that leaves Haden all alone. I just think we can upgrade that position. I did not say he needs to be cut, but a faster more physical corner, I would prefer

The Steelers have a few very fast receivers and I don’t remember him giving up much if anything the last few games.

He does need safety help when he is man coverage, but most #2 CBs in the league do. The problem is when he is a tiny bit late and gets burned, our safeties are shit and suck too much to help over the top.

I think the issue is kind of like that in baseball when an average pitchers who is a sinkerballer (forces a lot of ground balls) looks a lot worse because of the bad infield play behind him.

Grossi so FWIW but he said there’s been talk of moving him to FS in the off season.

They are keeping him at CB then. Considering our new found depth at CB, it would be interesting. I just don’t know if he fits at safety honestly. Dunno if he is suited to providing help over the top. I have always liked him as a man, cover corner and I don’t know how good he is in zone (deep zones are generally more common for safeties).

lol true

I agree in the long term. He was fine this year.

yeah, a lot of teams have had serious CB problems. Patterson and Skrine have been nice surprises.

neither unless we get a real RT and some line depth we don’t need first round sack target.

RTs aren’t that hard to find in the draft or FA. Tony Pashos would be just fine if he wasn’t hurt all the time.

Tony Pashos would be just fine if he wasn’t hurt all the time

Regardless, you have to admit we’ve got to find a replacement for Pashos asap.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

Totally agree. Also he’s pretty slow and a liability on screens and run blocking.

No doubt. But I think we can find a replacement in free agency or mid-rounds. Not our highest priority by far.

Another free agent like Pashos no thanks on that . It is by far our highest priority even if it does not require a number 4 pick to fix it is something that must be done.

TheDriveStillHurts - January 3, 2012 reply

RT is by no means our highest priority — anyone who says that is deluded. Not even close. By the way, if one free agent does not work out, it does not meant that you shun free agency forever (and it is very arguable that Pashos did not work out).

I think if he gets the other ankle surgically repaired he will be great, but given his injury history I wouldn’t risk it. Of I’m with you – get another FA or draft one 2nd-3rd round.

I would pick Luck and I would pass on RG3 even if Luck is gone.

I’m with champion64.

Why? What are you basing this on?

I think RG3’s durability is a possible major question mark

Whatever, Big Ben is huge and he’s injured too. It can happen to anyone. You act like RG3 is little. He’s at a minimum, 6’2" and 220 lbs.

THey say he is not 6’2. The hits Ben Rotheisberger has taken , RG3 would never survive

You’re really pissing me off, you talk all sorts of shit without having a clue. He’s at a minimum 6’2". Did you watch the Heisman? He’s almost as tall as Luck and he was wearing shoes with almost no sole (we all saw the closeup on his socks/feet).

Listen I am not making crap up. Look at the Mock Drafts. Robert Griffin is a tremendous COLLEGE talent, but not as big as NFL teams want. I am telling you, you have to have someone that can stand up to the rush and wont look to run. Running Quarterbacks usually do not fair well.

He’s not a “running QB” he is a QB who can run. He has excellent accuracy and throws the ball a lot. He only runs when he needs to, or has the opening to do so. I have no problem with that. A QB who can gain yards on the ground on busted plays is a very successful constraint and forces someone to spy them at all times, effectively removing a defender from the primary play.

I agree. While I do think RG3 will have to make significant adjustments to his playing style (i.e. won’t be able to rely on his legs as much, will have to learn to take snaps under center, etc.), he appears to me to be an outstanding prospect. He seems to have a great head on his shoulders.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

My only concern is his durability

Why are you concerned about his durability?

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

He had knee surgery in 09 and got a medical redshirt but otherwise has been OK.

Yeah – I know about his sophomore year ACL, but as you said that’s been the only serious injury I’m aware of. And I’m pretty sure he started every game his junior and senior years.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

He ran on average 16 times a game. NEVER survive even running half that in the NFL. In college he was just better than everyone on the field, it will not be the same in the NFL

Obviously, there’s going to be a huge learning curve but like BOAB said he is well grounded and very smart. He might have to sit longer than Luck but his ceiling is huge.

I think he is a great talent. Just afraid of his durability. I LIKE RG3, just outside of the pocket, he gets hit, it could be a major problem. Look at Michael Vick. THat is all I am saying, I AM NOT saying RG3 can’t play. It just will make it a hard sale to pick him in the top 4 picks.

Steve Young.

He is no Steve Young. You are comparing him to a HOF. I will tell you right now, he will never be a Steve Young.

I’m not comparing him to Steve Young.

Also I think it’s ludicrous for you to even compare him to Michael Vick. A young Michael Vick was the best player in the NFL. Obviously is career took a downward turn but if we were to get young Vick out of RG III, I would take it every day of the week and would hope the organization could help him to continue his development into a great QB.

I’m not making a comparison,I’m just surprised that every time he is mentioned he gets compared to Vick and is said to not be durable.

Steve Young 6’2 215
Michael Vick 6’0 215
Rg III 6’2 220

RG III is bigger than both and is Young’s height, so why when you want to talk about durability do you want to choose the smaller Vick?

He ran on average 13 times this season.
11 last year
14 his freshman year

around 13 for his career

He’s also like 10x smarter than Vick and has no ethical issues that we’re aware of.

around 13 for his career

less than the 16 and barely more than Colt ran.

Well then, I hope like hell we don’t draft him since you’re so sure.

Good thing we have an experienced QB like McCoy or Wallace to back him up if that happens but it’s not necessarily a given.

You can say that about pretty much any prospect. Of course he was the best player on the field at any given time, that’s why we want him.

Legoman0721 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

He is a quarterback that likes to run when pressured. NOT a good formula in the NFL. I LIKE RG3, just not sure we want that in Cleveland.

Would you prefer he just stand there like DA under pressure? Who cares if he runs under pressure. Elway did it too, it worked well for that old horse face.

You know what I am saying. He looks fragile. My assumption is that a ransom will be offered to the Colts for Luck

You know they wrap QBs in bubble wrap with the rules nowadays. He’ll be fine.

Vick wasn’t. Wouldn’t you rather have some one the size of Rotheisberger, or Brady?

Sure, where can we buy from? QBs r’ us?

THere will be a major effort to get Luck, if not then my prediction, they will keep McCoy and trade down to pick up more picks or select someone else besides RG3.

I’m good with any of that happening, though if we keep Luck I would prefer not to trade down if Blackmon is available.

*if we keep McCoy

I do think McCoy is the starter no matter what next year

You keep making up this “he looks fragile” crap. Where and when did he look fragile? And, he is NOT a running quarterback. It’s nice to know he can run if he needs to, but he is always looking to pass the ball.

What do you base this on, that he looks fragile? I’ve mostly just seen him look electrifying and ultra-talented.

Heisman winner means nothing in the NFL.

Colt ran about 10 times a game over his last 3 seasons at Texas. he was a good scrambler in college. In the pros, he runs about 4 times a game.

Unless teams are going to build an offense around his rushing ability like they did in Denver (and kinda like they did in Carolina), he isn’t going to be rushing for 16 yards a game. Hell, I’ll wager he doesn’t rush much more than half that amount.

Robert Griffin is a tremendous COLLEGE talent, but not as big as NFL teams want.

Isn’t Barkley 6’2’’ish too and he is 220ish pounds. That’s the same size and I haven’t heard the complaints.

This wouldn’t be an issue if he didn’t have the athletic ability to run. Yeah, he will get hit more if he plays the role of a “running QB”, but the ability to run and scramble can also help him avoid sacks and big hits. It works both ways and as long as you constrain him so he isn’t scrambling on every play, he probably should be fine.

Isn’t Barkley 6’2’’ish too and he is 220ish pounds.

yup.

My contention is that you need a bigger durable quarterback, and I dont think the Browns will draft RG3

"I’ve watched [Griffin]," Shurmur said this week via the Akron Beacon-Journal. "[He’s a] tremendous talent, good player."

Asked if Griffin could fit into a West Coast offense, Shurmur was definitive.

"Good players fit in every offense," he said.

What did you expect him to say. The dread locked loser isn’t a good fit?

1. He doesn’t have dread locks
2. He could say he’s heard he’s good and they would be taking a look.
3. Considering they’ve been tight lipped about our current QBs, he was pretty jovial about talking about a top prospect.

I don’t really mind how he handled it, I’m just saying that our coaches have now indicated they think he’s a good fit for this system.

Why would you pick him?

Great arm
Great accuracy, including deep balls
72% completion percentage
Showed excellent touch passed in Alamo Bowl
World class speed
High intelligence (he has 12 hours left for a master’s)
High intangibles (guys like Taylor said they loved playing with him)
High character (raised by 2 army sergeants, is very down to Earth for a super star.)
Has ability to turn Cleveland’s anemic offense into a scoring machine and put seats in the stands.

I dont disagree with any of your points. Honestly I think you are right about your points. I just dont want to see a quarterback that in today’s NFL could be very susceptible to injury based on his playing style. THat is my only knock.

I don’t want a QB who sucks as a result of his playing style. Tom Brady missed a year, Rothliss is banged up too. There’s no guarantee even if you’re big. Also Griffin is pretty big.

you have raised objections that aren’t just injury based. But you also haven’t backed up why he is such an injury risk.

He runs out of pocket and down field and he is at most 220, that is my assertion why he will be injurty prone.

maybe he runs alot because his line at baylor sucked!?

athensdawg - January 2, 2012 reply

As it’s been stated before, he’s a pass-first QB that only runs when he has to- like when coverage or his blocking breaks down. Mobility is a desirable asset in those situations.

He’d also be an injury risk if he were lead-footed and couldn’t get out of the pocket.

He’d also be an injury risk if he were lead-footed and couldn’t get out of the pocket.

Exactly – see Sam Bradford.

burntorangeandbrown - January 3, 2012 reply

His playing style is a result of what he’s presented with. I’ve heard no one call him a running QB. In college he ran because that’s where the play was. By all accounts he’s very intelligent in the NFL it’s quite possible he won’t run the ball as much. Either way it’s stupid to assume that he is going to run the ball all the time in the NFL because he’s not a running QB, he’s a QB who can run. Two very different things.

I would like to go back and count the plays that Griffin dropped back to pass and took off running, against the amount of called runs.

I’m guessing that he scrambled less than 4 times a game. The guy wants to throw from the pocket.

Bernie19Kosar - January 4, 2012 reply

Barkley 6’2’’ish too and he is 220ish pounds.

I don’t remember you saying any of this about Barkley. maybe they won’t draft RG3, but it certainly won’t be for the fact that he is 6’2’’ 220ish. Rumors were they really liked Barkley and he is that size.

It is because he runs. He scrambles for yards, not to extend the play, but to scramble for yards, which leaves him vulnerable as a runner. There is a difference. They are trying to get Michael Vick (a notorious running/scrambling quarterback) to stay put in the pocket in Philly. They tried to do it with Randall Cunningham. McNabb on the other hand could run if needed but he was 255 lbs and could take the hits.

Ugh I hate when teams try to turn a QB who’s also a running threat into a pocket passer. Steve Young played in the WCO too, as does Vick and I don’t think anyone was trying to limit their running ability. Also, as has been said 1000xs, RG3 is much bigger than Vick and his propensity to injury except for 1 acl has been nothing.

It is not that they dont want him to run down field, it is that at times scrambling quarterbacks run outside the pocket too many times and eventually they get hit hard. Vick has taken a beating outside the pocket, They actually had him practicing sliding so he would not get hit hard

I don’t think Griffin runs as much as you think he does, and I’m pretty sure some other people here have basically already proved that so why can’t you stop with this line of argument?

Running 14 times a game is a lot of running

Out of like 80 plays? It’s not that bad.

Look I agree with you on most of the analysis of RG3, but when a quarterback looks to run when in trouble EVENTUALLY injury could slow him dramtically and his long term durability could be a problem. He looks skinny to me.

Have you actually watched any Baylor games the last few years? Or, are you just looking up some stats on the internet?

His stats are wrong and they change so he’s obviously not using looking any stats up…

every QB looks to run if that’s what they are left with. Every QB looks to make a play. There’s no way I’m going to believe you telling me that he looks to run when there is trouble. He looks to run when it’s the smart play.

It’s more like 13 for his career, but whatever. Colt Ran 10 times a game over his last few seasons and he isn’t running anywhere close in the pros.

Sure, he ran a fair amount in college, but nowhere near what some of the guys you mentioned did. There is also no guarantee that the running frequency translates AT ALL to the pros.

Vick’s had to practice sliding because he ran recklessly with not care for his health. There’s a difference.

He scrambles for yards, not to extend the play, but to scramble for yards, which leaves him vulnerable as a runner.

wait…so when he runs it’s always a designed run? It’s not to extend a play or save a broken play?

The argument works both ways. If you have a QB like RG3 and don’t do what they are doing in Denver (basically making him an option QB), he can actually end up getting hit less. RG3 has a better ability to extend a play, to avoid the rush, to escape hits.

They are trying to get Michael Vick (a notorious running/scrambling quarterback) to stay put in the pocket in Philly. They tried to do it with Randall Cunningham.

Both of those guys aren’t as thick as RG3. Plus, Cunningham got beat up a lot outside of running. He got sacked almost 300 times between ‘85 and ’90 (and he didn’t play much in ’85). His sack rate those years was insane and it should be no surprise that his best year was with good protection.

Also, Griffin is nowhere near the college runner than Cunningham or Vick were. He didn’t run nearly as much so its only logical to think he will run less than them in the pros.

I haven’t heard anyone question his height. This isn’t an issue until we get the official heights at the combine.

Josh Cribbs was small too going into the league.

Huh?

Compare his size now than when he was a rookie. He was about RGIII’s size.

24rubikscube - January 4, 2012 reply

first of all, Cribbs is not a QB so the point is kinda moot. Second of all, Cribbs was never 6’2’’ and I don’t think ever listed above 220

bross09 - January 4, 2012 reply

wait what, I thought cube had facts

Even though I love Griffin, I agree that he’s a risky move. I don’t like many of the other top 10 picks in this years draft, so I would draft him on that fact regardless

What about trading down again?

I was just writing a reply about this. This would be the first time I would condone trading down.

You didn’t agree with the Falcons trade?

He wants to make love to Julio Jones.

I’m pretty sure that would be JULIO making love to HIM.

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

Maybe if it amounted to some good players

Well, we can’t give it a full grade until after this draft at least.

considering that the Falcons clearly got the most pro ready player out of the 3 taken, it’s not exactly an accurate evaluation if judging after 1 year.

most people who say that are those who got mediocre players. real talk

Well, we haven’t even used one of the first round picks we got, so I think it would be stupid to evaluate a trade that hasn’t been completed yet.

I forgot about this. Great point.

I agree with the pessimist, Griffin is a risky pick but so was Cam Newton. This team needs talent, but unless jesus enters the draft then the next few years will be just as painful as the last few.

Jesus entered the 2010 draft.

And only Josh McDaniel would draft him.

EMILY LOL

aaaaaaaand rec

Ever seen the SNL skit Em? Hilarious.

It was!

Every pick is risky. We tried to take a safe, pro-ready receiver and we all saw how Robo turned out. Sometimes you have to take a big gamble and hope it hits home with a franchise QB.

Legoman0721 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

I could not disagree more we ended up with good players the defense was upgraded this year we need more than one player and without the results of this years draft picks its hard to put a final grade on the trade sides Jones was hurt a lot this year was he not?

Don’t you have a license to dislike who ever we take regardless?

RG3. Lower price tag.

Hopefully the only price is the pick it takes to draft him. (4th overall)

I really dont see us drafting RGIII

I don’t get it. I love the Browns but they continue to let me down. Where does the problem start? Too many coaching changes, not enough talent, too many QB changes, front office issues and the list goes on and on. There is nothing in the near future that is going to pull this team from the bottom. They are losers, not because they want to be but because they are, the entire organization top to bottom is built on a tradition of losing. Holmgren isn’t the answer, McCoy isn’t the answer, Cribbs isn’t the answer nor is Hillis, hell we don’t have any answers..anywhere. Do we have SOME talent, yeah I guess. But every team has at least SOME talent. None of it means squat because we LOSE, and thats the only consistant weve seen since they came back. I still love this team and that will never change but until MAJOR things happen were going to continue to lose.

The Lions could turn things around. So will we.

Emily who are you selecting?

In the draft? I’d take Blackmon or Griffin.

dont you think Griffin may be possibly too fragile?

Probably worth the risk; we need a QB. Colt may do well somewhere else, but I think he’s done here.

I agree Emily, this team need to get what it can while it can. Grif, with the right coaching can be a solid foundation and a big threat. As for durability, I don’t think thats a predicition that can be made yet, it take a milisecond to change a durable guy into an injury prone liability in the NFL.

Or maybe we sign Flynn and draft Blackmon. Who knows.

If Blackmon is there we take him. If not we’ll trade down. I firmly believe that had Green been available last year we’d have one pick this year and no Phil Taylor

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

Outside of Griffin tearing his ACL, he never missed a game at Baylor.

Don’t know why this would all the sudden become an issue now.

Well things like this become an issue when you give a forum to people who talk out of their ass.

the offense rg ran at Baylor is a 180 from what we run, will u trust shurmer and staff to coach him into what he needs to become?

Dude, you are just a quote machine!!!!!!! REC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know we can turn it around, no doubt about it but drastic measures to improve the ENTIRE organization top to bottom need to be taken. None of the combinations have even shown promise at this point. So what do we do? keep trying the same ol’ crap or FIX the issues?

Wrong, all sorts of wrong. We need a few more key players, mainly a QB. If you have a LT, a QB, a shutdown CB and a decent RB you can have a decent team. Guess what – we have all of those except the most important one.

I agree

Show me. If our QB was the only issue then we would have won more than 4 games.

Colts.

Thank you

You are really underestimating the importance of the Quarterback position.

They went 0-16 not too long ago.

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

Or you could just shut up, let the team build itself up, get some coaching consistency and let some players develop in that system and see what happens. The only thing that’s been consistent besides losing is inconsistency.

I love the west coast offense. But what are we building on?

Did you watch the last game of 2010 against the Steelers vs. the last game of 2011 against the Steelers? Do you not see that our defense is tremendously better? Do you not see that even our offense, though allergic to the end zone and often confused still manage to move the ball better than before?

Did you see the game against Houston?

If you use a game against a QB with one leg as a benchmark, then I question your standards.

Please, Roethlessburger is the biggest drama queen QB in the league. He’s the perfect Steeler cause he’s completely full of shit. He limps out there like he can barely walk then throws off that foot all game. He’s not 100% but no way is he as injured as he’s making it look.

I liked when he wore a different colored shoe so everyone knew he was hurt and bitched when Sheard pushed him

Exhibit A

This is so wrong. When he’s healthy, Ben is one of the most efficient QB’s at moving around to give him time in the pocket. In our two games there were a number of players where he had opportunities to scramble or make people miss and he didn’t. His play is clearly being effected by his foot.

Because it’s stuck up his own ass?

Or because he’s getting old and can’t move like he used to and a slight sprain causes him to act like he has a broken leg (which is exactly how he acted in the first game).

Considering before the injury he was one of the best in the league statistically against the blitz, I would say that’s not the case.

I hate the bastard, but I don’t see how anyone can act as if his mobility is shot. He’s pretty much ignored all running lanes on 3rd down. And even with the Sheard sack, he normally could have easily stepped up and avoided it.

I honestly don’t give a shit about his ability to move. I want our defense to obliterate him and his movement every time we play him. We did it in 09 when he was healthy and we’ve done it twice this year. That’s really all I care about.

I agree. But honestly I’m interested in real improvement. When we beat the shit out of shittburgh, I want it to be while they’re healthy and able to feel it to the full extent. And after that asswiping, I then we can end a couple of seasons and still beat them.

ass-whippin. dammit

We went toe to tow with them in the first game when he was healthy. We also ran the Bengals to the wire twice and the Ravens once. In the first Ravens game we hung with them until they got a ST TD (which I’ve heard is common in Baltimore). This team has hung in there all year and is just missing a few pieces. For such a young team I don’t see how you can’t be optimistic for the future given that despite their mistakes, they seem more on the same page than any other time in recent history.

Because it’s not really sustainable. I look at shittsburgh alone. How many times have they drove 70+ yards easily on us, only to fumble or go for it on fourth and fail?

I give credit for them for their goal line stances, but this offense gets shredded easily and has been the benefit of bonehead plays by the opposing offenses. We still have a disgusting run defense and give up huge plays weekly in the secondary. How can I look at this defense and not get excited? Easily, I actually watch the games

How can I look at this defense and not get excited? Easily, I actually watch the games

Then I suggest you start paying attention. 10th in yards allowed. 10th in points allowed. Hell, they are 6th in the NFL in Yards per Play. How is that a defense that “gets shredded easily”?

We have some work to do on the run defense, but give some credit. This defense played really well this season.

They will look much better if they can force some more turnovers.

Curtis Painter
Charlie Whitehurst
Kyle Boller
Chad Henne
Blaine Gabbert
John Skelton
Sam Bradford
One Legged Rothlisbugher

Should I list their offensive rankings or are you analytical enough to conclude doing “good” against these teams really don’t amount to anything.

BuenosAires_Dawg - January 1, 2012 reply

excellent point. I would love to get another DE to rush the QB this draft.

Grockcubs - January 1, 2012 reply

We played Kerry Collins, not Painter, mind you

Should I list their offensive rankings or are you analytical enough to conclude doing "good" against these teams really don’t amount to anything.

This is complete BS. How many other teams faced back-up/rookie QB’s?

You continue to act like the Browns are the only team that faced scrub QB’s.

10th in overall D against the weakest schedule this team has seen in years….can we stop the run…no need to pass…

10th in overall D against the weakest schedule this team has seen in years….~~can~~ we CAN’T stop the run…no need to pass…

6th in points allowed and really, scoreboard matters.

Is it really the weakest? All 3 teams in the division (that we have to play twice) finished above .500. For how good the AFCN has been, that’s only the 2nd time its happened, and the first where 2 teams had double digit wins.

We played 2 divisions AFCS, NFCW that looked fairly easy on paper, but still managed 4 total teams at .500 and the Cardinals were a surprising 7-9. We also got the 8-8 Raiders which was a good team.

As tough as last year? no. Easiest in years? wtf? It actually ranks as a harder schedule by Football Outsiders than mangini’s first season here.

The schedule part just isn’t true.

You should list all the RBs we played and then reassess our run D, which I’ll admit is not good, but probably not as far off from being good as you think.

Ben Tate (5.4 ypc)
mcfadden (5.4 ypc)
Reggie Bush (5.0 ypc)
Foster (4.4 ypc)
Rice twice (4.7 ypc)
mjd (4.7 ypc)
S-Jax (4.4 ypc)
Gore (4.3 ypc)
Beanie Wells (4.3 ypc)

We also faced a lot of RBs that ranked high in FO efficiency (11 in the top 20, and most of those were feature backs as opposed to Johnathan Stewarts and Pierre Thomases)

This defense looked decent against less than decent competition. I would give them an incomplete based on their efforts and willingness to fight but Tenn., Oak, San Fran, Hou. and the Ravens show this d has a ways to go.

I think we did just fine against San Fran and Tenn.

I am by no means saying this is a Super Bowl ready defense, but this group has made huge strides.

31 total points, CJ’s first 100 yard game of the season and 3 TD’s to Hasselbeck is just fine? I think we have up almost 200 yards in rushing to SF, which is just fine.

Yea, you have horrible game evaluation

Might be the first time I have rec’d LP lol

Against Tennessee the defense only gave up 24, which isn’t great but isn’t terrible either. They gave up a couple big plays, but they held Matt Hasselbeck under 50% completions and the Titans to under 4 YPC. That was a pretty decent defensive game that could have been great with one or two better players.

They gave up 20 points to SF. Again, not amazing, but not bad either. That’s against the number 2 seed in the NFC by the way, a team with first rounders all over the offense.

Yeah, you have terrible game evaluation.

Against Tennessee the defense only gave up 24, which isn’t great but isn’t terrible either.

that four points above their average.

They gave up a couple big plays, but they held Matt Hasselbeck under 50% completions and the Titans to under 4 YPC.

See now you’re just flat out lying and specifically picking certain stats. He wasn’t under 50%, he was exactly at 50% which isn’t exactly horrible, and he threw 3 TD’s. Along with that, CJ averaged 4.4 YPC.

That was a pretty decent defensive game that could have been great with one or two better players.

This is about as irrelevant a statement that a person can make, the effort was about as mediocre as the damage control

The point is they scored all their points off of three big mistakes by the Browns who were basically fielding an all rookie D.

He wasn’t under 50%, he was exactly at 50% which isn’t exactly horrible

Yes it is.

he was exactly at 50% which isn’t exactly horrible,

LOLWUT??

Seriously, my head is close to exploding from the utter stupidity here and the talking out of both ends.

The Licensed Pessimist - January 3, 2012 reply

60% completion is considered a great rate for the average QB. Dropping down to 50% isn’t that much of a deviation, and would be average. -50% is what most would consider horrible.

60% completion is considered a great rate for the average QB.

lolwut? Look it up, the average completion % in the league IS 60%.

The last year where you could really say 60% is good for the average QB was back in the mid-late 90s, but the game has changed.

Dropping down to 50% isn’t that much of a deviation, and would be average.

10% is a significant deviation, no matter the sample size. That can’t mean there still isn’t a fine line between bad an average. There is somewhat of a fine line, especially since when taking an SSS of 1 game, it doesn’t seem like a huge difference.

bross09 - January 3, 2012 reply

This is totally and completely made up.

Bernie19Kosar - January 3, 2012 reply

Dropping down to 50% isn’t that much of a deviation, and would be average.

Only 2 starting QB’s in the NFL were at 50% or below for the season (Gabbert and Tebow).

Bernie19Kosar - January 3, 2012 reply

I wish I could REC this 100 times.

I thought Ten ripped us apart and we had the ball for about 40 minutes.

Tennessee made 3 big plays against a very young defense who made some mistakes. With experience (and I mean as much as from that game to yesterday) The Titans aren’t given those opportunities again.

Look, I think we showed improvement by the end of the season, but to say we played fine against San Fran and Tennessee is a joke.

What was so terrible about the San Fran game?

20 points on the road? What is the measuring stick?

I am the biggest fan of context out there, so to me citing a point total isn’t going to be enough for me. I want a competitive game, San Fran had us beat the entire game. The late last ditch effort is nice in that the team was playing hard, but is not enough into fooling me that we were competitive in that game.

I’m not even talking about the offense in that game. I’m talking about the defense.

San Fran started their first drive inside our Red Zone after a McCoy fumble, and then added 13 points the rest of the game.

The reason it seemed like we were never in the game was because of our offense, not our defense.

That’s a great point.

I’m a believer in this defense as well, but at the end of the day our offense is so bad that it renders us uncompetitive.

Believe me, I thought our best game of the year was the first Pittsburgh game and we only scored a measly 3 points.

Ben was healthy only just over a quarter in the first game. He couldn’t move the entire second half.

If you take a game against what was (at the time) a top 5 offense as your benchmark, I question your standards too.

Not to mention that game was how many weeks ago in the first year of a rebuild? There has been significant improvement since then.

Yes. I would think using a good offense the way people make benchmarks. Is there a different technique in BrossWorld2.0?

Yes. I would think using a good offense the way people make benchmarks.

A top 5 offense is clearly going to be a tough match for any D and they aren’t going to look as good as they look against the average offense they play. Also, you are using a SSS and an SSS that clearly swings out of favor of the Browns being a solid D.

Do you even like this team?

A top 5 offense is clearly going to be a tough match for any D

That’s absolute crap. dominant defense usually seems to trump dominant offenses. New England scored 17 points against Pittsburgh this year. And houston didn’t look nearly as good against them(an actual good defense) as they did us. And they looked pretty bad against Baltimore. I swear you people make this up as you go along

Also, you are using a SSS and an SSS that clearly swings out of favor of the Browns being a solid D.

what are you talking about? Cleveland has played against one of the easiest schedules in the league. And yet we’ve gotten owned by good ones. How does that work out in our favor? Do I need to list once again the dominant QB’s like Curtis Painter we played this year?

I wasn’t talking about dominant Ds. They can often hold their own against dominant offenses. I wouldn’t assume this D is close to dominant.

We get owned in one game against a great offense and its proof that the D looking at all good that we faced crappy offenses? Its still a SSS and the other games we played against offenses that were pretty good (Baltimore, SF), we generally held them at or below their season PPG.

We definitely have gotten the benefit of some easier offenses and i don’t think our D is 6th best (where they rank in points), but it’s definitely above league average and probably borderline top 10.

I don’t think anyone would claim neither Baltimore nor SF have anything better than good offenses, and Baltimore ran for almost 300 yards against us the first game. Other than our divisions rand the two teams we mentioned, everyone else has been in the bottom quarter of the league. We have a good statistical defense because of that, but not one that will take us anywhere in this league.

We have a good statistical defense because of that, but not one that will take us anywhere in this league

This D can actually take us somewhere if we have an offense that is higher than 30th in ppg, has a QB that can complete a pass downfield, and i dunno, maybe a run game too.

Cleveland has played against one of the easiest schedules in the league.

Browns opponents have a %.53 win percentage.

Only the Rams, Colts, Vikings, Bucs and Lions have a “tougher” schedule than the Browns.

But hey, who needs facts right? I guess like you said…

I swear you people make this up as you go along

Having three playoff teams in our division skews that percentage considerably.

Having three playoff teams in our division thusly makes our schedule NOT

one of the easiest schedules in the league.

bbstirrd - January 1, 2012 reply

I swear you people make this up as you go along

Are you listening to yourself? Do you realize how dumb of an argument that is? We don’t have a difficult schedule because the best teams we faced were in our division?

Explain to me how those teams being in our division makes the schedule easier.

I think the point is we play those teams every year. We can’t judge our schedule year to year by giving our division games even weight because it will skew our competition every year.

Against the rest of our schedule, the easy portion, we sucked. I can’t speak for TLP, but when I watched our games and I looked at our schedule I see a ton of effort and very little results against teams we should have played better.

The only “easy” teams on our schedule were the Colts, the Rams and the Jags. The fins came on strong and were playing well when we played them. The Seahawks played a 7-9 season against a relatively tough schedule. The Cards and Raiders were both strong 500 teams. Our schedule last year was harder, but this year’s schedule was hardly easy.

Have to take the full context though. The Fins were much better with Matt Moore and the Seahawks were playing Whitehurst against us.

Ok hey what are your thoughts on drafting RG3, will it happen?

QB is the toughest position for me to figure out (and most) but I think Griffin can be successful in the pros if the offense is catered to his skills. I really think we need a QB so if we are not able to get Flynn or Luck, my preference is that we do use the pick on Griffin or Blackmon.

My concern obviously if we draft Griffin is that the coaches won’t be flexible enough.

Do you worry about his long term durability? Dont you think it would be better to get a bigger stronger quarterback.

I think his speed compensates for his slight size issue, in that he will be able to avoid a number of hits and also find ways using his speed to minimize taking the brunt of it.

I am drawing a comparison to Michael Vick. Also look at McNabb after he got hurt he was awful. He got hurt running

McNabb had what, 8 solid years? Vick is still a guy I would take on my team.

Just leary is all. I think RG3 is a great player

are you taking a poll?

Below yes

Tavaris wasn’t playing much better at the time.

Explain to me how those teams being in our division makes the schedule easier.

That was my reaction.

Teams at .500 or below

Colts
Rams
Seahawks
Dolphins
Jaguars
Cardinals
Raiders

Winning Records

Titans
49ers
Texans

Bengals
Steelers
Ravens

Having 6 games against the AFC North is usually going to give us one of the tougher schedules based off of winning %

I’m just going off the facts, we actually had a hard schedule.

Yup, it looked a lot easier at the beginning of the season when the Bengals, Titans, and 49ers looked like they weren’t going to be good.

granted, no one thought the Rams and Colts would be this bad but the ones you mentioned more than cancel that out.

Having 6 games against the AFC North is usually going to give us one of the tougher schedules based off of winning %

Explain to me how that means our schedule wasn’t as hard as the winning percentage indicates.

I’m not saying it doesn’t, I’m saying that give or take Cincy we will most likely always have a tough winnning percentage because of our division. Pitt and Baltimore make up a 4th of our schedule.

Look at the rest of our schedule and it was pretty soft and we played pretty poorly against it.

SF and Houston are division winners, Oakland and Tennessee was competing for the division or playoff spot on the last weekend and both were better and healthier when we played them. Arizona and Seattle both had late runs that got them close to .500. Except for STL we beat everyone we should have beaten and hung pretty tough with some teams that could have blown our doors off.

SF and Houston are division winners

While SF was good and I agree with your general point, when you play two full divisions, you will get two division winners.

Fair enough, but they weren’t like Seattle last year, both teams were probably 2 of the best teams in the NFL at the time we played them.

Probably. I did point out SF was good because we weren’t expecting great thib out of those teams.

I already mentioned that a week ago and don’t feel like posting it again. It’s in the thread. We played quite a few teams that were at or below .500 and we played bad against them. I’m not talking about SF or Houston and calling them soft. Although since you brought them up they did take us to the woodshed.

That’s absolute crap. dominant defense usually seems to trump dominant offenses.

It’s 2012, this isn’t true and hasn’t been true for a decade.

Shouldn’t use the last game of seasons as benchmarks, too many other factors are coming into play.

So you’re telling me you don’t think Matt Flynn is the greatest Packer Quarterback of all time?

No, but I will be damned if that guy didn’t make himself some money.

100 RECs for sarcasm!

Let you down? Don’t ask what the Browns can do for you but what can you do for the Browns!

Shurmur needs to do a much better job. That punt from the 32 to the 18 was mind numbing. Did he even realize we were a 4-11 team? How valuable would a FG been at that point?

I hope he at least checked with Dawson on that, maybe with the wind Dawson didn’t think it was makable from 49 yards (the actual distance)?

Yeah – but if that is the case – go for it.

Maybe? They did get the ball back. Our offense is not good so it doesn’t really matter right now to me. I’m perfectly happy having the higher draft pick. This year and probably next is all about building a system. As much as I hate the Steelers, I would rather build a dynasty than win a meaningless game in a 4-10 season.

I agree about two years, but we go off in different directions. I’m a get the best for the defense in the first 2 rounds, then look at the offense, and I want O line first, before WR. 99% of the readers here think I’m nuts for saying it like that. I dont care; Add another shutdown CB, a killer DE, LB, & S – finish building the Defense, and solidify the O line, we will be where we need the upgraded QB or WR’s (if they are needed after upgrading the O line) in the following draft. Then we should be ready to compete – I really hope we can take JT to a super bowl before he retires, the man deserves it.

The only thing I don’t like about this is that it will take the QB at least 2 years to develop so now you’re waiting on that to happen. We have a good enough O Line right now not to get him killed, we can add some more receivers and the defensive pieces through the draft and FA.

Agree, an RT first, then a WR, all in the first round. No more of this ‘trade down for 26 journeymen, throw them at the wall and see which one sticks’. We may still need another RB, as it doesn’t appear Hardesty is doing much, save repeating his college experience. Get Steinbach back healthy.

Paul Brown used to say take the best man out there at the time. Makes sense most of the time, except for the glaring holes, and ours are on the OL. Without time, McCoy looks bad, the receivers look bad, the running backs go nowhere. Our defense has kept us in most games (including last night’s) where we should have been blown out in the first half. But we have NO OFFENSE because we have NO BLOCKING.

MoMass isn’t cutting it, he can’t get open and when he does, he doesn’t fight for the ball – he’s an interception magnet. Little is concentrating too much on running after the catch, which he doesn’t make, because he’s concentrating too much on running the ball AFTER the catch. Our TEs are good.

And find a younger Lawrence Vickers out there.

Hard to believe I looked forward to this year. It comes down to coaching and we haven’t had much. We’ve blown the basics, which is lame. Number of men on the field, clock management, snap count, line discipline, tackling, BASICS. That the HC’s problem.

I think we’re still 2 years away from challenging. Browns fans need the patience of a saint – or better management. At least Aston Villa’s winning, right Randy?

Cato - January 2, 2012 reply

an RT first

With the 4th pick in the draft?!? Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall.

Even with ATLs pick its probably excessive.

It’s been reported that we tore Mendenhall’s ACL tonight.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I knew it was torn when his knee bent right away after planting the foot.

I think his days as a starter were numbered anyway, watching his “backups” carry the ball. Their running game ay e better off without him.

But everyone KNOWS he’s such an elite RB! Particularly Wilcotts and Harlan.

Defense played very well imo. Can you imagine what we could do if we had an offence that can score TDs?

A quarterback

Definitely. It might have been just my view, but it seemed that the WRs were getting open. The problem lay in Wallace throwing behind them. Dunno if that was a function of the wind, having to throw around the linemen or just piss poor accuracy.

Exactly. Our defense has looked really good for the most part. Sheard was a nice pick.

We will get there.

Sheard was an awesome pick. MVP nom for the D.

gotta nominate DQ, too.

In my Bud Light mock draft I had Sheard going to the Steelers in the first round so what an awesome value pick.

Shurmur isn’t a good coach. We need a solid coach. heck thats a small drop in the bucket to the overall needs of the team.

ok bro.

True story.

He isn’t good. But we’re probably stuck with him for another year or two. He needs to find an offensive coordinator with a far keener mind than he. He won’t have to go far to find one, at least.

ouched - January 1, 2012 reply

Based on what?

give him an OC and a QB and we’ll see what kind of coach he is. First time HC, lack of talent, and no offseason makes things really difficult. Everyone said the lockout would adversely affect the Browns more than any other team. They were right. No surprise.

NFL NETWORK ABOUT TO ANNOUNCE TOP 7 DRAFT ORDER FOR 2012

Post it here please. Sick in bed and dont have NFLN in my room.

Will Do

thanks homie

We don’t need to wait for NFLN. Just look at the standings.

1. Colts
2. Rams
3. Vikings
4. Browns
5. Bucs
6. Redskins
7. Jaguars

Boom.

yes

I really want the Redskins to trade with us. We won’t go back far and pick up some picks. I wouldn’t take anything less than 2012 draft 1, 2, 3 & 2013 2nd from them. The reason? If Shanny believes that RGIII is the future face of his franchise, then the picks are worth it and we dont drop far, and we pick up quality picks at great spots in the draft. Thus if we pick well, adding more impact players to the roster.

We won’t go back far and ~~pick up some picks~~ will get quality picks in exchange.

It’s time to pull the trigger on getting our franchise-changing superstar. Get one of these two QBs.

Feel better sir. Just got over the flu myself.

I fucking hate the flu.

Hey, I appreciate that.

Is it the flu? Is it appendicitis? Will you be traveling with the team?

It’s more than stomach issues.

Hope you feel better.

Thanks. I do feel better. Was able to smoke a bit ago.

What I took away from the game was that we aren’t that great on Defense… Yes we are good but no were not as good as we’re made out to be. As whole everything is pretty good and next year we should be better as players recover from injuries, put their experience to use and actually have an offseason to train and build teamwork and learn the plays.

A lame Big Ben (stated at being 60%) still managed to weasel out a pretty decent game against us. If he had been fully ready, this game would’ve gotten out of hand very early on. Case in point, in the first half when he was “scrambling” out of the pocket and had all of the right side of the field to run but threw a poor pass instead. If he was healthy or Batch was in, that play would’ve gone for 10 yds easily.

Also, I hate the playcalling. I won’t say I hate the playbook or the WCO, but holy crap do the calls befuddle me at times. I agree that baiting them with short passes and then working them on a deep route is the way but baiting them with the short game all game only to shock the world with another short pass isn’t doing crap on 3rd and long. I’m not sold on Shurmur… maybe he needs an OC to feed him the plays but then all you have is some figurehead stooge getting credit for the OC/DC play calling.

Wallace did make some plays and the WRs didn’t suck so bad tonight, well minus MoMass’s turn at having the dropsies. So for that I am thankful.

It was our first year in a new defense. They did good.

Wallace stunk. He was lucky he only got picked off once.

I do admit he had a few bad plays that should’ve been a pick 6 and put a lot of passes off target. It kinda reminded me of watching DA pass.

wait…you mean Big Ben had a decent game where the offense scored only 13 points? Even accounting for the fumbles, that is not anything all that good. He had a very mediocre day.

I love how you just completely bash the playcalling for a whole 6 lines, but then make a point that “Wallace made some plays” and not backing up your defense of a stinking QB who couldn’t execute, even when the right playcall was in place.

We still stink on offense, even if Bill Walsh is calling the plays, Wallace sucked that bad.

MoMass will be cut. Cribbs was absolutely outstanding at WR tonite – his hands were incredible. Is it just a fluke? Disagree on the defense, that DL really hustles, is really good, and has a chance to be outstanding.

Cribbs was amazing at WR tonight. MoMass is probably done here.

As is hardesty. He played terrible filling in for Hillis.

SBP - January 2, 2012 reply

Not arguing that the DL doesn’t hustle. I think that while our Gocong and DQ are making some great plays, the team seriously needs some training in tackling. Almost every play, resulting in positive yards, I see the pile move forward an extra few yards because everyone has a hard on to try to strip the ball and not stop the runner. Granted that in the past we’ve gotten a few turnovers from stripping the ball but we’ve also given up that many more yards. Plays that should’ve gone for 2 – 4 yds end up going for 5 -8 yds because everyone is looking for the strip.

Also, I think the only reason why the defense is rated so well is because they are monsters in the Red Zone. But anything outside of that and they get walked all over.

@Bross – I won’t argue that Wallace’s play is garbage but I was trying to put something positive up rather than just bash away. And yes, while they only scored 13 points and being dumb enough to play injured, Ben had a decent game. I think Batch could’ve come away with comparable, if not slightly better, stats tonight.

I won’t argue that Wallace’s play is garbage but I was trying to put something positive up rather than just bash away.

funny enough, you had not positives to say about the playcalling but kind of swept under the rug some awful QB play.

I am not gonna argue that Batch may have actually been better considering how bad Ben played.

Sorry I can’t find it but I swore I made mention earlier on here or one of the game feeds that some of Seneca’s passes reminded me of DA’s passing. (Nevermind that was posted on my friend’s FB status). But yes, seeing all the passes behind WR brought back visions of DA.

DA without the arm strength to make up for it…but at least he isn’t a statue.

MoMass’s problem is the same as Robo’s. He’s playing against too good of defenders. He is not a #1 WR or even a #2. Hopefully we draft a speedy #1, move Little to #2, and put Cribbs at #3 since he has shown flashes like today. I see MoMass going like Robo. Slowing losing playing time and receptions until he’s gone.

I could see getting that speedy #1 in DeSean Jackson who Heckert already drafted once and who probably isn’t too popular in Philly right now.

The plus side with Jackson is that it seems like he just wants money and years, not necessarily a contender. We could have a shot if we did decide to seriously go after him.

Yet when I suggested this a few weeks ago it got shot down like slow spy plane

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

I’m down with DeSean Jackson. Risky, but I think he’s worth the risk.

shep615 - January 2, 2012 reply

MoMass has horrible ball skills and drop problems. Those bells are gonna ring no matter who the hell he’s matched up against

The 2nd round has been somewhat of a Kryptonite lately. Veikune, Robo, MoMass didn’t work out. Hardesty has been nothing. Honestly, there are big question marks surrounding TJ Ward still. Sheard looks to be on the right track and Little could join him but he’s not there yet.

Veikune, Robo, MoMass didn’t work out

Yeah, that was Eric’s from 09, and I’ve been bitching about them from day 1 of that draft to anyone that would listen. I wanted Matthews III, Maualuga, and Loadholt for the 2nd round picks that year. We would have had our bookend OT, and had a hugely upgraded LB corps.

I’m not gonna bitch about the 10 or 11 draft, I still believe we kicked ass there.

I agree on 10 and 11. Hopefully Ward, Hardesty and Little can do some great things for us.

Monsters of the Midway - January 2, 2012 reply

I like Matthews III as well but you couldn’t have had him in the 2nd round because he was already gone.

let’s just ignore mangini regime picks. The 2nd round hasn’t been all that bad.

Ward wasn’t having a bad season before he got injured and he had no injury problems his first year. It’s way too early to judge anything from 2011 and if anything, Little has exceeded expectations…even for me who thought he was going to be our biggest surprise and get 400-500 yards.

Sheard?

Sheard is awesome and he pointed that out.

What I took away from the game was that we aren’t that great on Defense… Yes we are good but no were not as good as we’re made out to be.

Do I watch the same games as other people?

What I took away from the game was that we aren’t that great on Defense… Yes we are good but no were not as good as we’re made out to be.

This d is not great. Yes, this d plays hard.

apparently not

I’m not sure what game you watch.

The Cavs will win. 21 seconds left, up by 18. Good way to start 2012.

:))

I will take 1 out of 2.

Cavs have been impressive, like the Browns, they’ve been in every single game so far.

They’re a Kyrie layup away from 3-1.

Yep and they were close against the raptors too I think.

I was at that game. The were not close, and they were lucky the score was as close as it was. No fault of their own, they didn’t play horribly, Toronto just couldn’t miss that night.

I wish I could see them on TV again. Going to college in PA and then moving there makes it impossible. Maybe I’ll go to Cleveland for my birthday or something and try and catch a game.

The Browns were not in every game.

So what im hearing from everyone is that if we draft a stud QB we will be in the playoffs next year.

No, that’s not what you are hearing.

If thats not what im hearing then what is it thats being said?

That Colt is not the answer and a better QB will greatly improve the team.

No one said that.

Wow

No one mentioned playoffs. No one is even thinking playoffs for next year. Most of the guys on here are objective and realistic as far as expectations go. A stud QB will be an improvement, but there are no quick fixes here cuz there are holes on both sides of the ball.

Which is why we dont need another QB yet. Too many holes on both sides of the ball.

If you wait for the perfect time to pick a QB, you’ll never pick one. Get a superstar QB when there’s one there available, and I think you’ll find everyone else on our team will look a lot better. See Colts, Indianapolis.

Then get your QB and you have one less hole to fill. One very huge important hole.

This Tim Couch syndrome, thinking that a QB will only be successful in the league when they get drafted by teams with all the pieces in place is tiresome. If the rest of our team was any good we wouldn’t be in a position to draft a franchise changing QB, that’s how the draft works. If a QB can’t survive a few years while their organization continues to build the rest of their team, that QB is a waste of a roster spot.

To rebuke your argument, I give you Matt Flynn stepping in for Aaron Rodgers…

Matt Flynn is fool’s gold.

That actually supports his argument – GB has a built team, so someone like Flynn can step in and play. But they haven’t always been that way. The pre-Holmgren years they sucked until they brought in Favre and he developed while they added pieces. Aaron Rodgers was good enough to keep the team OK in the first few years post-Favre while they were doing some rebuilding so he stuck, once they had the pieces, the light went on and they haven’t looked back. I think people forget that GB was the 6 seed last year and Rodgers had never won a playoff game. ATL and Houston are similar. Build around a guy who is good enough to contend for the playoffs and when it all comes together – Boom Super Bowl.

I think people forget that GB was the 6 seed last year and Rodgers had never won a playoff game.

Many people forget.

huh?

2012 NFL DRAFT ORDER PICK 1-7

1. Indy
2. St. Louis
3. Minnesota
4. Cleveland
5. Tampa Bay
6. Washington
7. Jacksonville

Que draft talk in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…

Front seven help.

Trent Richardson with our first pick!!!!!!

Banned.

hahaha too funny.

We queued that up after week 3 at the lastest.

The morons on NFL network talking about both Mannings in New York. Peyton playing for the Jets

That is something that’s possible, why are you calling them morons?

I can’t see anyway Manning would want to play for Ryan. He’s the exact opposite of the loud mouth. Most specifically humble. I can see Manning wanting to deal with that drama show.

Yea, there’s no way Manning wants to go anywhere. He’s built so much continuity there and he’s a perfectionist. He desperately will want to stay.

I dont see any reason why he wouldn’t stay. The smartest thing the Colts can do is take Luck and let him sit behind Manning for 2-3 years.

I think by far the smartest thing would be trading Manning (if they can get it figured out somehow) for some pieces to use to build around Luck. Otherwise how are they going to get those pieces?

johnf34 - January 4, 2012 reply

Considering Manning has years left on that contract, I’d imagine they would get more for him next year after he can prove he can stay healthy then this year where his health is an unknown. Granted he may prove his career is over, but I would have to think the upside would be worth the risk.

*can’t

rofl

It’s going to happen.

Peyton is not going to leave for that offense. He will stay as a Colt. Indy will ask a Kings ransom for that pick. Peyton is not going anywhere

It’s probably not Peyton’s choice unless he has a no trade clause and this isn’t baseball so I’m guessing he can either play with Luck looming on the bench or he’s going to NY, Wash, or Mia.

I dont think he will leave. If anything Luck may sit behind him. Dont think the Colts want to pay both. Maybe they take someone to give Manning some help on the offense.

And Manning just signed a huge deal. I doubt most teams want to deal with that money.

Washington paid 100 million for some fat ass DT whose name I can’t remember. They would pay for Manning.

Mike Golic passed the conditioning test that certain DT couldn’t even finish live on ESPN one day.

I remember that – and he’s probably getting close to 50?

Smart man. Just wikipedia’d him and he’s 49.

For Manning and a big market team like the Jets? Yes they do.

The Colts already said they could and would pay both of them.

Dont think the Colts want to pay both.

Rookie pay scale.

Or they take Luck and “Kolb” him to some team. Indy likes to rest starters once they’ve secured their playoff spot. Luck would see some action for at least a game, assuming Indy gets back into its old form.

Sanchez Sucks

Can a Bruthuah get an AMEN?!

YEP!!!

I really hope we don’t trade up. I don’t want to mortgage our future. And I like RG3.

I’d take a 3 for 1 by moving to 10 or so…

Of course you think Colt McCoy is a franchise QB so of course you would take that.

That’s really the only question at this point. Colt’s done. Even if he wasn’t average at best, his dad questioning the organization basically fucked him for good.

If the Browns retaliate against McCoy’s dad after they failed to run the standard concussion battery all is truly lost in the franchise.

I know that probably seems bad and if Colt was a franchise QB it probably wouldn’t be as much of an issue. Given that he’s average at best, having someone question the family is a death sentence. I’m not sure I disagree with this. If I’m leading an organization that’s rebuilding in sports or business, I have very little tolerance for the family of my average employees starting shit with the higher ups (in this case the media and the fans, in my case, someone’s dad calling my bosses to complain about how I handled said employee without all the facts).

Colt is not for sure done in Cleveland. I hope you and everyone realizes that there’s an extremely high chance that neither Luck nor Griffin end up in Cleveland. If that happens I see Colt staying behind center. I think they’ll draft over Colt (and if they do I’m going to support it because they know much more about QB than I do) but I don’t think they’d give Seneca the job or sign Random FA X to play over Colt.

I don’t think Seneca would get the job and I’m sure any FA they got would be highly evaluated. I hope we’re not the ones to bite on Flynn, but if they think he’s good then that’s OK. Also if they think Colt has the ceiling to improve I’m fine with that, I just don’t think they think that.

I don’t want to trade down either, assuming there are play makers at position of need available.

That’s so lame, if we trade both our firsts to move up 2 spots to guarantee drafting a potential franchise QB we’re not mortgaging our future. In fact we’re not giving up anything we wouldn’t have otherwise if not for last years trade which is done.

The team has issues. I want more then anything to see them do big things. but bandaids where you need stitches wont work. our D is good, not great. our offense was place on the back of Hillis at the start of the season and Colt has had no development. We have some terrible backup QB’s who shouldnt even be in the league and our coaching staff isn’t all that great.

our offense was place on the back of Hillis at the start of the season

I’m looking for evidence to support that. Lemme see … we had Hillis and Hardesty being rotated by the quarter, we had Hillis not getting the ball on third and very short. Hmm. Evidence doesn’t seem to be there.

This, like ALL of the previous drafts could be a starting point for this team. We can only hope they choose wisely.

Holy shit, just saw Matt Flynn’s line. Damn. Now I see why people thinking Washington will break the bank on the guy… based on one start. The Redskin doesn’t give a shit.

I watched some of that game and Flynn actually looked pretty good.

Kelly Holcomb looked awesome in one start against the Steelers in the playoffs. Beware of judging on one or two games. Let Washington go after this fools gold.

TheDriveStillHurts - January 1, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Word, I hope we don’t chase this rabbit.

Flynn just got rich off of ONE start.

That’s less than Kolb and Cassel. But I’m sure the end result will be the same.

Overpaying him would be so Redskins. Hell, they’ll probably just send GB their number 1 just for the pleasure of doing so. They don’t like the draft anyways.

Hey guys. We all have to root for Tebow next weekend; they play the Steelers.

AHAHA I’d root for anyone to beat the steelers.

Not a problem.

Extremely easy to do.

Looks like Em has a Tebow fascnation…

No. I just want to see the Steelers lose.

emily522 - January 2, 2012 reply

I can do that. I’ll have to hold my nose, but I can do that.

Have to give the squad credit, they busted ass. I am just leery of taking a QB at 4. I just don’t see the Colts giving up the pick unless it is 3 No. 1’s and IMO the Browns can’t give that up. Browns need a legit WR, RT and another DL. Also need a OC.
Go Denver.

Grockcubs - January 1, 2012 reply

Would you stop living in 1997? We need a franchise QB and you get FQBs in the top of the draft. This isn’t fucking Ryan Leaf or that fat ass from LSU all over again.

Step off the ledge. Geez guy I am not a Steeler fan. Just my opinion. Hell I thought that was welcomed around here.

Grockcubs - January 1, 2012 reply

Just my opinion. Hell I thought that was welcomed around here.

Think again.

burntorangeandbrown - January 1, 2012 reply

Sorry that I’m sick of bad QB play and people saying “I am just leery of taking a QB at 4.” That show little comprehension of the current NFL and is just living in the past where people drafted super expensive busts and got stuck paying for them for years. A QB at #4 would be at most a 10-20 million investment over 4 years which is a fraction of what STL paid for Bradford. The risk is just so much lower and the players, like RG3 are of so much higher a caliber person than Leaf or Purple Drank. Also if trading 3 #1s for the possibility of a franchise QB like Manning or Brady means multiple winning seasons and a Super Bowl I’m doing it every time. Sorry, don’t take this the wrong way but you’ve been here as long as Colt has, the rest of us have suffered through mediocrity for much much longer. Sorry but its true, you’ve been posting a lot less since Seneca’s been playing and most of your comments have been about how McColt fans are getting picked on. We just want to win games. If Colt can do it, I’m his #1 fan, if not, and there’s been nothing to show that he can, then its time for Plan B. In any case, Happy New Year fellow old fart.

If RG3 is there when we pick at #4, as I’ve mentioned before several times I think he’d be the wise pick. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable or irrational is saying I’m not sure it would be the wise thing to do to pay a huge price (both 1st rounders and next year’s 1st rounder…) to get him. Not sure – we’ll see what happens but I would be disappointed if they gave up so much when they have so many needs.

We just want to win games

This is not directed at you, because I don’t think you’re in this group, but I have to say I’ve been very disappointed by the prevailing sentiment, not just on this blog but on other (Cleveland) blogs that “well, I won’t be too disappointed if we lose to the Steelers”. Frankly, I find this disturbing and pathetic, and indicative of a fanbase that is part of a self-perpetuating culture of losing. As I’ve rooted for teams since I was a kid, never in my life has it entered my mind that I would be “ok” with my team losing for any reason. I think this is part of why I haven’t been posting quite as much lately. I find this mentality toxic and depressing.

You are right though – I’ll admit that to a certain extent the fact that I came “onboard” after Colt came here – is also part of the reason I haven’t commented quite as much in recent weeks. Don’t take it the wrong way though. There may be times, as has been the case lately, when I feel like it is best for me to take a break from all of it. I’d rather do that than come on here and say something stupid. You’re right that I haven’t been a long time “sufferer”. I’ve asked myself a number of times this season if I have it in me, and really want to join you guys on that long hard journey. Hopefully you can understand that.

Regardless, I have huge respect for your opinions and consider you to be one of the best and members here on this great blog. Happy New Year to you too, friend.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

Stick around BOAB. You’re a strong addition to our fan base, you’re knowledgeable, and bring a great sense of humor to things. As Browns fans, we certainly need a sense of humor.

Also, when we finally reach the top of the mountain, the party we throw will be an all-timer.

Thanks Dawg – much appreciated. I have a feeling I’ll be around for a while.
I definitely hope to be whooping it up at the party with you guys. It will be epic.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

Rec, rec, and rec

I haven’t heard a good reason not to take him yet. Other than the idea he’s too small, which is bogus. I don’t think he’s a big gamble.

Monsters of the Midway - January 2, 2012 reply

Are you talking about RG III?

I haven’t seen him in action and don’t see much college ball but I’ve read a few things that sound like concerns…

1) It’s college, he can hit open guys but some have questioned his ability to make NFL throws (i.e. leading receivers, throwing guys open)

2) Questions about his ability to read a defense and adjust. Apparently Baylor’s OC sits in a box, calls down the play, reads the defense and will call adjustments down as well.

I have no idea about the veracity of these claims but if true then I’d say there are some serious question marks about how his skills will transfer to the pro game.

C’Mon Henry, we’re all friends here. Play nice.

IF we trade up, it will probably be with St. Louis. Indy can’t take both Luck and RGIII, so one of the two has to be there – probably RGIII. And trading up to the #2 spot should be a bit cheaper than trying to get to #1 so that is probably where we will go unless H&H are gaga for one of them and don’t want to risk their guy being taken at #1.

I love Browns fans! disagree about the path of our team, then attack a nosey steeler fan for sticking his nose in the convo! this is one of the reasons why i will stick with this team through anything.

This thread is now incredibly awesome.

It was such a collaborative effort; I’m so proud.

rec for the size.

That’s what she said. ALRIGHTTTTTTT!

You can’t do Romeo justice without the maximum amount of pixels.

GIANT ROMEO! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

We should let the Kansas City site know about these pictures.

We did when that guy came over to ask about him a couple of weeks ago. I’m happy for them and all the hilarity they have ahead of them.

And Rob Ryan’s credibility continues to die.

Victor Cruz is a great WR.

LOL!

He went back to cry to his rapist friends.

I so want to go there and pump things up for laughing at Mendenhall.

When did Giants add lines to their uniforms?

Since always?

I mean the white lines on their jerseys.

I don’t see any white lines on their jerseys.

Their seams are opaque.

I think you’re trying too hard. Looks normal to me.

I’m thinking about doing a “The Case for Matt Flynn” post. Thoughts? (I’m not like “YEAH LET’S GO GET FLYNN!” but I definitely think the FO’s going to take a nice look at him.)

I would love it if for no other reason that I want to know what the case is for Matt Flynn other than he plays for the Packers.

Personally I think he’s more a product of the Packers than he is a franchise QB who will turn us into the Packers.

He was without his number one in Jennings.

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

I would be interest to know his body of work, besides today. How does he work with receivers that don’t catch, for instance..

ouched - January 1, 2012 reply

I have noticed you’ve been all over his bandwagon for a few months.

You could do it and take a look at other backups that might be worth a look.

I would be all for it, depending on the contract.

I would be willing to take RGIII at #4 – but am dead set against a trade up to number 2 to get him. I am hoping for zero traded picks. No move up like for Monterio and Phil.

This philosphy is flawed in so many ways its not even funny. If you think he’s a franchise trading QB worth taking at 4, then you easily throw in some other picks to make sure you get him at 2. If you’re not sure then why pick him 2 slots lower? Either you believe he is a game changer and you do anything to get him or you’re not sure and you take someone else and leave the gambling up to Tannehill, Foles or just keeping Colt.

Yeah I know. Just have so many needs just really hoping to hold on to all of our DCs.

I don’t see as many needs as some people pretend to think we have. In fact Artis Hicks did a pretty good job at RT tonight too. We’re a couple of players away for sure, but what we’re really missing is a good QB who can stand in the pocket and wait for their receiver to come open.

Would say we have major needs:

QB, WR, FS, CB, DE, Rush LB, RT, DE, and RB..

I don’t consider RB a need. It is a position that is easily filled.

you missed an extra WR in there

I’m okay with our CB’s.

I don’t know, WR and one more DE yes. FS maybe but we have some decent safeties. Ed Reed, no, but they are rare. Our safies are probably good enough not to throw a bunch of money at one. Gocong is a good rush LB and will be better at the strong side, a weak side replacement shouldn’t be too hard to find in the draft and Maziava is getting better. RB? Don’t forget we have Brandon Jackson and could still resign Hillis. RBs are easy to find. CB – Dmitri Patterson and Buster Skrine have both played very well. Skrine will get better and has the speed to cover modern WRs. RT can be a 3rd rounder or FA, there’s tons of college LTs who get converted to RT every year. Not that worried.

I don’t think he is a franchise QB. I thought he was less than Landry mechanically and accuracy wise. Much like Landry, he is a mid-late first rounder because of the doubts(unless he decides not to come out).

The Browns should trade down and get picks this years, hitting all areas of need WR,QB,S,DE. That way the Colt fans are happy because he gets another “chance” and the non-Colt fans are happy because we have new blood to replace him when he fails again.

Griffin is far superior to Jones in almost every way. I do like Jones probably more than most at this point but Griffin is way ahead of Jones in many ways, most importantly in speed and mobility, which is one of those constraint things rufio is always talking about and being accurate on deep passes.

I don’t agree. Jones has far better mechanics and better arm strength. Every game I watch him play I just watch the man make NFL throws……..in that daffy duck system that Bob Stoops runs. He has made more NFL throws than Sam Bradford.

Griffin’s release is as slow as Colts. His midrange game sucks. Neither are top 5 picks.

Jones sucks. Couldn’t even hold a candle to Bradford and he’s regressing.

I can only assume you haven’t watched a Baylor game.

I did, not impressed. I don’t care what points are scored, I care how his talents will go into the NFL. Just don’t see it.

If there is a time to trade up, it’s this season. We have the ammo. Gotta shoot the bullets sometime.

Makes no sense to load the gun if you won’t take the shot.

OC

Supposedly the Browns want to hire an offensive coordinator for 2012. Says that they are looking for a guy with West Coast experience.

abock15 - January 1, 2012 reply

Old news.

Says that they are looking for a guy with West Coast experience.

I know a guy, goes by Pat Shu… ugh. Nevermind.

Not hiring an OC was prolly one of the biggest mistakes by the Browns this year.

Second only to hiring Pat Shurmur.

Shurmur should have been fired. We lost so many close games it was rediculous.

Oh no, a bunch of rookies and first year HC losing close games? definitely clean house because none of them could possible improve to make those close games into wins. Much better to start over. Maybe we’ll get blown out then the coaching decisions won’t be question as much?

I’d be okay with that if the team seemed organized on offense in any way.

I don’t know if its so much a lack of organization as it is a lack of talent.

That’s a cop out. Our players aren’t stupid and talent has nothing to do with the mistakes we made in being unprepared for plays.

It’s not a cop out. Yeah there were some screw ups in game management and play calling, but there were a ton of plays that imploded/fizzled/blew up because balls were dropped, tackles/blocks missed or coverages blown. I think that latter group of issues shows there is still a lack of talent. And such a dearth of talent makes it impossible to climb out of the hole created when an the issue from the first group arises.

JustBob - January 5, 2012 reply

I agree with you typed here, but Dorn’s comment was about organization on offense.

Villeslgr - January 5, 2012 reply

Wrong.

Yeah, he was really disappointing after that long offseason of carefully installing a new offense and a new defense. You’d think they would have been better with all that preparation…

Says they’re also heavily considering Brad Childress

abock15 - January 1, 2012 reply

I’ve heard this too. Would be interesting.

Childress would be the new head coach. No way he would play second pony when he has had success in the NFL to that idiot Shurmur.

No one is ever going to hire him as a HC again. He either takes this or he’s still out of a job

Childress is a terrible HC, he is an excellent OC.

He is a terrible head coach………..even though has had more success than Shumur has ever had. I don’t blame him for the revolt in Minnesota. They are paying for it now.

So you don’t blame a HC for calling a timeout and then sending 12 players out on to the field?

even though has had more success than Shumur has ever had

He also had much more time and talent to work with. what’s your point?

Do you ever have anything to back up anything you say?

Good.

Monitored the Childress situation for years as I live in Viking territory and I definitely do not want him.

I heard this on the radio today coming home from work. Shurmur was QB coach at Philly when Childress was the OC. They coach in the same system and I am betting they trust each other. I also heard that if they hire him they would let him call the plays….
I think this would be a really good move for the offense. Add a new QB and receivers and…. we’ll still find a way to rebuild for a few more years.

crazyL80 - January 2, 2012 reply

Tebow is amazing. Even in failure the man still succeeds.

I love Tuck’s facemask.

What do we think about moving down a little in the draft? I’m not 100% sold on RG3, but I believe the Phins and Redskins covet him.

ouched - January 1, 2012 reply

Fine with me…….I wouldn’t even waste my time with Luck as this point.

who would you waste your time with?

Pretty sure the Redskins will try to trade up (with the Vikings at #3) to get RG3. If we want him we’ll have to outbid them with both our #1 picks minimum.

Indy will take Luck and/or demand a king’s ransom for him (our FO won’t pay that price).

I predict Blackmon falls to us and we pick him, which I’d be happy with.

burntorangeandbrown - January 1, 2012 reply

I totally agree with everything you said.

We might not have to use both 1s to move up 1 spot with Minnesota. If they know we’re taking Griffin they’ll still get whoever they want.

I would be fine with Blackmon though because he has the range to help our QBs look better.

The question is how much it will cost to move up to #2. If H&H want RGIII, that’s where we will probably have to trade up to in order to ensure that some other team doesn’t move up there.

BuenosAires_Dawg - January 1, 2012 reply

Rob Ryan’s defense isn’t looking too hot

Did we wear the white jerseys in all 16 games this year?

I think so. I hated it. They should make it up to me next year by bringing back the orange pants.

Awwww yeah.

Adrock2099 - January 1, 2012 reply

Yes and I loved it.

For giggles, I went through our prediction thread because all the playoff spots are filled.
Clevsports and I are tied for the lead right now. 5-2 (correct division winner/correct wild card).

Some of them are pretty funny.

Mine were a fail.

Well, one of my bold predictions came true (Jets going .500). Can you post a link so we don’t have to sift through?

Here

missed on a couple, but I am proud with predicting the Jets would not finish with a winning record (don’t consider .500 “winning record” especially b/c at the time I was thinking they would go 8-8)

The Jets thing was a good call on your part.

yeah. I thought Sanchez sucked hard and Shonne Greene still sucks. missed on a few teams (Wow, Rams), but I wasn’t as high on the Eagles/Jets as some…but I was way to high on the Falcons.

Don’t fret. A lot of us picked the Rams.

Brownie's Year - January 2, 2012 reply

True. I like to balance out my spot on predictions (greg little doing well, Jets being mediocre) with ones I did bad on. I just don’t like to do a ton of bragging.

Hey guys, I know Steeler trolls will pop up, but don’t feed them. Flag them and they will be taken care of.

I know, I’m a buzzkill. Just think how good their tears will taste when they lose in the playoffs. Go anyone but Pittsburgh.

Flag. You inadvertently cheered for Baltimore. Go meteor (if it comes to that)!

Good point.

Does anyone else dislike Baltimore more than Pittsburgh? My dad hates Pittsburgh more but my brothers (who are younger than me) and I dislike Baltimore more.

I want to hate Baltimore more, then Steeler fans show up and it’s a no contest.

My dad hated Pitt. But when they played Balt he wanted Pitt to win. He just hated Balt more because of the move and he never wanted to see them succeed. But I hate Pitt more because of there fans.

I would love to see the results of a poll to see which team we actually dislike more.

I hate Baltimore more than Cleveland...

…and not just because Baltimore has been a rival lately, but because I, like many Steeler fans, did not support the decision to allow Modell to move from Cleveland.

PaVaSteeler - January 1, 2012 reply

Cats and dogs living together!

I have all the sympathy in the world for a childless couple – this is, in no way, an endorsement of kidnapping.

Cato - January 2, 2012 reply

You only hate Baltimore more because they actually can beat the Steelers. No one hates a team they always beat.

champion64 - January 3, 2012 reply

I hate the Patriots...

…because until this year, they always beat us.

PaVaSteeler - January 3, 2012 reply

I hate Baltimore more than Pitt. Pittsburgh is a legitimate NFL franchise. Baltimore is not — they are f***ing thieves and I don’t recognize the team there.

I dislike Baltimore and Denver more. Then again I’m not from Cleveland and have never lived there.

I notice many people want to trade up to get Griffin at 2/3 but if Washington covets him we’re out of the race. When it comes to making irrational decisions and getting into a bidding war we are much more calm, cool and collected than them. If they want Griffin, they’ll throw anything and everything out there to go get it done and go well beyond a price I’d be comfortable with.

Only the Browns can offer a premium pick this year and a second number 1 this year. No way we can be outbid. St. L can drop 2 picks and still get the guy they really want – all gravy for them. I personally have hated every one of our trade ups. KWII – gave up a 2nd rounder for no reason whatsoever as Det didn’t even have a TE in their offense. BQ – ouch. Montario – bad move. Of course I guess the trade downs didn’t work much better.

realmccoy - January 2, 2012 reply

Not sure he’s necessarily saying we can be outbid by them. The question is, do we want to pay the price and outbid them?

Lets assume RG3’s stock actually rises even higher after the combine (a very likely scenario). It may turn out that both Luck and RG3 end up commanding “kings ransoms” for the trade up suitors.

What if Washington pushes all their chips in? What if they offer, say their 1st and 2nd rounder, plus one of their 4th rounders (they have two 4th round picks this year), plus next year’s 1st rounder. And maybe they throw in an additional later round pick – from this year and/or next year.

Also we’re probably going to see Miami in the mix. I’m guessing we’re going to see a bidding war between Washington and Miami just for starters. Assuming that’s the case, do we want to pay the price to win that bidding war, or do we just grab Blackmon, who’s falling right into our laps?

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

Interesting point. I want one of the QBs, but I wouldn’t be angry if we end up with Blackmon.

This.

emily522 - January 2, 2012 reply

But RM makes a strong point. We can give up the extra picks that we got from Atlanta to give St. Louis two first round picks this year. That’s an extra 1st that they can use right now to get a guy they have already evaluated rather than saying “and next year when we have two first rounders.” Plus, our pick is only two below theirs, so it’s not as much of a drop for them. I’m not sure how bundling the ATL picks works out on the value chart, but I would have no problem throwing in Wallace if it helps. (Who does St. Louis have for a backup QB?)

Trade downs got us Alex Mack and Phil Taylor. Not too shabby.

Not at all, but you have to get more than just that player or you didn’t gain anything by making the trade. With the Taylor trade we got an extra 2 so either Little or Sheard and then whatever we get this year with the extra 1 and 4 but really just adding Little or Sheard is probably worth it. This years picks are gravy. I still don’t know what we got from the Jets other than Mack + not having Sanchez.

Trade with the Falcons > trade down with the Jets.. although trading with the Jets kept us away from Sanchez.

those players really turned this team around

Those guys are the foundation you build a team on. Also why are you ignoring the other players we got/have yet to get as a result of the Taylor trade. Little + Marecic + [whoever else we get] will be better than just Julio Jones for a team in our position.

I don’t believe that at all.

I think having one dominant player has more value than having 3 role players. I’m not saying we should have taken Julio specifically, but the mere fact is that a player like Julio can tremendously upgrade a unit, while players like Taylor won’t(and haven’t).

You keep saying we’re building this “foundation”. But in reality you build a team around the joe thomas’s of the league, not the Jayme Mitchell. We got 2 Mitchells from our trade, and we’ll have to see what the third pick gives us in the next draft. My hopes aren’t up

Little and Taylor are clearly better than Jayme Mitchell quality. Give me a break. Also when J.J. is forced to be the #1 WR or play with a backup QB would it be apparent that he’s a franchise changer.

Little and Taylor are clearly better than Jayme Mitchell quality.

haha yea right. I’ll ask you this, would you trade Joe Thomas for 3 role players?

I agree I would take the franchise pro bowl lineman everytime. But Jones is not a point of attack player. Sheard and Taylor are and they made our defense younger and stronger hands down they way I would go. If the big K is available we should take him hands down a no brainer.

Hell no, but Joe Thomas is a cornerstone player, playing the second most important position on the field – you can’t say the same for Julio.

Hell no

Exactly. Regardless of what position he plays and supposedly how important that position is, you build your team around those types of players. We have continuously passed up dynamic players such as thomas, for role players, and picks to acquire more role players.

I think it’s hypocritical and sheepish to justify our current crop of high round, yet average players by stressing the importance of passing on players like thomas, yet still acknowledging the attachment you have to him, and the unwillingness to follow your own strategy with him.

High round but certainly not averaqe they are solid starters. You can’t compare the impact of a probowl lineman vs a wide receiver. your average lineman as a far longer self life than most talent players.

I get you there, and I agree, but the problem is that Julio Jones is not a franchise changing player so we added solid position guys with high upside and still have the fire power to get whatever game changer we want this year.

I’m just guessing here, but I’m sure they looked at McCoy’s year as somewhat questionable in that we saw 2 different McCoys last year, the one vs. the Pats and Jets and the one vs. the Ravens and Steelers so I think they grabbed the extra picks knowing that they may have to draft a QB if it didn’t work out and they could use the extra #1 to move up for Luck or Barkley (and now Griffin, though I’m not sure he was on their radar back then, but Luck and Barkley certainly had to be.)

You can argue that Jones isn’t a franchise changing player, but I think it’s fair to say at minimum he’s a player that can bust a game wide open or at minimum great influence the game. Which is what you’d expect from a high round pick.

we added solid position guys with high upside

This is were me and others differ. I don’t think their upside is that high at all. I think they’re bodies, and people would could be easily replaced. It’s easy to replace a 330 pound DT who does nothing special, it’s easy to replace a run of the mill WR who runs nothing but slants and outs. But yet you can’t easily get a rookie WR with the highest YAC out of all starters in the NFL.

All I want for christmas is players that excel at their position.

We all want that but that’s going to take a while to get to. Doubling up your first and second rounders is definitely a good strategy if that’s what you want.

Part of the problem is that you don’t think Taylor is any good. We needed a DT to run the 4-3 and Taylor was probably the best one available after Dareus who was long gone by then. I don’t know how Liuget and Wilkerson have played though but they would have also been options.

He was probably on the same level as Jurell Casey, but coveted more because of he was the largest DT in the draft. Yearly the draft shows that taking DT’s in the first round generally amounts to nothing.

that taking DT’s in the first round generally amounts to nothing.

DTs bust a lot, but most of the elite guys at the DT position were 1st round guys. (source: your own damn link).

The Licensed Pessimist - January 3, 2012 reply

List all of the first round DT’s from the last 5 years, then list all of the starting DT’s in the league.

Look at all the elite/all-pro/pro-bowl DTs in the league. Then look at how many of them are 1st rounders.

Suh, Raji, Seymour, Ngata, etc…

DTs do have a high bust rate, like I said. They are one of the more risky picks, but they generally do NOT bust.

I have actually posted stats relating to this before on DBN, sorry if you didn’t read them then. They bust less than QBs and its a lot easier to find a “servicable” one.

Over half end up having good careers and are generally worth the pick, not “generally amounting to nothing”.

The only reason it seems significant people don’t advocate taking a DT in the first and do for QB is positional value. Theirs isn’t incredibly high, but that shouldn’t matter with what we are talking about.

bross09 - January 3, 2012 reply

just stop this pointless shit with him. I stopped taking him seriously when he compared Greg Little to Jayme mitchell

in this convoluted argument, are you seriously trying to argue that Taylor/Little are at the level of Jayme mitchell and Julio Jones is a cornerstone like Joe Thomas. may I direct you to the picture below which states" LOLWUT??

We got 2 Mitchells from our trade

Taylor was okay, but the jury is still out; if you can’t see how Alex Mack improved our team, I can’t help you.

we can’t be outbid on paper, but Dan Snyder is nuts. That is the x factor here. Crazy ass honey badger.

Alright here is my take. And i’m ready for my consequences but i’m subject to my own opinion. Now Colt is not a bad NFL Quarterback. The kid has amazing pride and heart. Showed he can handle the beatings from tye AFC north (besides cheap shots from morons with the number 92). And He goes 110% day in day out. He is Drew Brees 2.0. Now with Colt, he needs weapons around him, first and foremost, a WR who can catch and get seperation. That is priority 1. Next, We need to address one of three things O-line, Linebacker, and DB. I was thinking either O-line with our falcons First rounder and then Linebacker with the 2nd rounder. Or vise versa. If you surround Colt McCoy with talent. His talent will shine through. He has the perfect personality for the city of Cleveland. And has shown he loves this orginazation. Even through the shit he took from mangini. And if 6 or 7 years from now and if i’m wrong i will formally apoligize to the users of DBN. But give the kid a break. It’s no. Like he has the attitude of Jamarcus russel.

lightninmcqueen - January 1, 2012 via mobile reply

Sorry if this is kinda hard to read. I-pod+ fast typing= many errors and typos.

lightninmcqueen - January 1, 2012 via mobile reply

He is Drew Brees 2.0.

hate to say it but you can look at what he’s done and say he is Charlie Frye 2.0 and it also looks very legitimate, maybe even more so than “Brees 2.0”.

He is Drew Brees 2.0

Delusional. You are comparing Colt to a future HOFer and one of the most accurate passers in NFL history. That is absolutely insane. Like Colt or not, he has not given us any indication that he will be Drew Brees 2.0. Seriously. This is f***ing crazy. Please let’s get real.

This.

Comparing Colt to any HOF QB at this point is foolishness.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

This

Exactly — even if you really believe in Colt, a position I respect though disagree with, it is insane to start calling him Brees 2.0

I never said he looked like he does now. Was brees as good as he is todsy then he was his rookie season? No. They both had the same intangibles. Great leader. Weak arm, and not big enough. Look at brees now? He did horbile with the chargers, theytraded him to the saints, put weapons around him: and now he is where he is today. Put weapons around Colt, he will perform.

lightninmcqueen - January 2, 2012 via mobile reply

Actually Brees has a pretty good arm. He also plays more than half his games in a dome or in balmy weather.

I know. But coming out of college they said he didn’t.

lightninmcqueen - January 2, 2012 via mobile reply

playing in the NFL it’s obvious that Colt doesn’t

Was brees as good as he is todsy then he was his rookie season?

Not the point. Can you point to any QB not taken in the 1st round who wasn’t good his first 2 years that went on to be a future HOFer? Drew Brees is an enigma. Just like Tom Brady. Neither should be used in any sort of logical point about QBs. They are extremes, outliers, exceptions to the general rule.

Lets ignore outliers.

After watching the Cowboys tank this evening, it occurred to me that the Cowboys may become a bidder for RG3. The question would be who is crazier, Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder?

JamesPowell - January 2, 2012 reply

IMO, it would be Jones. But it’s a pick your poison kinda thing. Either one is prone to act out of desperation.

Also, it looks to me that we might be in a pretty crappy draft position, in which a player that us fans covet will likely be gone if we stay put. Luck goes first, Blackmon goes 2nd and RG3 goes 3rd to whichever team trades up. We miss out on the QB and the WR. I wouldn’t be opposed to taking someone like Morris Claiborne, but missing out on a top tier offensive talent would mean having to suffer through something like this season again, and nobody here wants to see that. B19K said it best above, we’ve got the ammo, what better time to do it than now?

It’s gonna be a long 3.5 months.

S.NM.Brown - January 2, 2012 reply

I think St. Louis will grab Kalil before Blackmon with the 2nd pick. Blackmon may be open to us at the 4th pick.

Agree. We get Blackmon. At that point we leave the qb unaddressed for now. No way i’d draft a qb unless it’s rg3 or luck (or barkley :( )

macdowellm03 - January 2, 2012 via Android app reply

I disagree if we can get a good deal for him I say trade down like last year. Take the pick if Big K is there though.

Who is Big K?

Matt Kalil*, USC, OT, (6-7, 295): Kalil is the most polished offensive tackle in college football. He possesses unique skills to match his imposing frame and shows all of the signs of blossoming into an all-star caliber player at the next level. He was so respected by the USC coaching staff as a left tackle that they kept current Cowboys tackle Tyron Smith on the right side despite his extraordinary talent.

We already have the best LT in football, you really want to draft him for RT at the 4 spot? That’s a waste when you can get perfectly good RTs later.

You think well since they been draggin ass getting a real RT our LT has been only getting older. one could argue its not a waste like you believe because the rookie scale has reduced the price tag has it not? Anytime you upgrade the point of a attack is not a waste to me. yeah the new qb , rb or wr may seem better, flashier but what use are they if they are getting squished by the defense.

It has more to do with the player you’re NOT getting because you took a RT. Nobody is saying to start a piece of plastic at RT. You need a good one, you just need to pick the best tackle in the draft to play there.

This.

If the first three go the way you say, then I want Matt Kalil. Not a super sexy pick, but it solves a lot of problems on our line. Plus, I don’t think we have good QBs on the roster, but I think that an O-Line consisting of book-end tackles, a pro-bowler at C, Eric Steinbach, and whoever would play RG would give them more chances to succeed.

Not to mention it would boost our running game.

I’ve heard this dude is the best tackle since Joe Thomas. It would be like having God and Jesus Christ on the same offensive line.

shep615 - January 2, 2012 reply

I think dirtyjoe is right, the Rams will take Kalil. They desperately need to upgrade their o-line.

burntorangeandbrown - January 2, 2012 reply

You’re probably right. I’m really excited about this draft- I think no matter what someone will be there at 4 that we really want. One of these four dudes will be there at 4: Griffin, Blackmon, Kalil, or I would personally like to see Claiborne as a consolation. In the end I think that we will have our choice of Blackmon or Griffin. I see #4 as a win-win situation for us.

shep615 - January 2, 2012 reply

There’s an outside chance either the Rams or Minny take Claiborne, they’re both desperate for a CB.

do you think there’s any truth to the rumors that the rams are shopping bradford and considering a qb?

I think that’s very possible, especially since they’re looking at getting a splashy coach, they might want to and the Browns would probably do it, hopefully not for our first #1 pick. It would be sweet to grab Bradford and grab Blackmon too.

I’m not opposed to trading for bradford, but I was wondering about the possibility of luck and rg3 going 1 and 2 to the colts and rams.

I’m sure if they trade Bradford its because they’re getting either Luck or RG3.

What about Coples or Ingram? their size is hard and skills are hard to ignore.

Personally, I think Minny will trade down with either Washington or Miami. RG3 will be off the board before we pick. Blackmon will fall right into our laps.

I wouldn’t be shedding any tears over that. I’m looking forward to seeing him play tonight.

what about the eagles do you think they might want to move up I don’t see them standing pat with Vick or am I crazy

Why would they not? It wasn’t Vick’s fault that team collapsed this year.

This place will explode if the Browns keep McCoy as the starter! It might be fun to watch….

SBP - January 2, 2012 reply

1. Colts 2-14 .539
2. Rams 2-14 .590
3. Vikings 3-13 .559
4. Browns 4-12 .531
5. Buccaneers 4-12 .551
6. Redskins 5-11 .477
7. Jaguars 5-11 .500
8t. Panthers 6-10 .504<
8t. Dolphins 6-10 .504<
10. Bills 6-10 .520
11t. Chiefs 7-9 .512<
11t. Seahawks 7-9 .512<
13. Cardinals 8-8 .469
14. Cowboys 8-8 .473
15. Eagles 8-8 .488

Couple more losses and we were 1st!

looks like their re a couple of coin tosses that might mean a lot. But we need O line help more tan another CB sides we might be able to get chase minnifield with a later round pick.

Hey, we were not the worst team in the NFL like some rankings had us at the beginning of the year!

That sucked that our punter had his first touchback all year and it was because it was like 70 yard punt.

My personnel thoughts on the top ten picks in the draft:

1. Colts….Andrew Luck QB
Note: This is a no brainer. Colts won’t trade

2. Rams ….Matt Kalil OT
Note: They need to shore up their line. Bradford has been getting killed this year

3. Vikings-Trade-Washington…RG3 QB
Note: Washington is desperate for a QB. Griffen will be their pick

4. Browns ….Justin Blackmon WR
Note: Great Pick to help the receiving corp for the brownies

5. Buccaneers…Morris Claiborne CB
Note: Bucs defense has been getting killed this year

6. Redskins-Trade-Minny….Jonathan Martin OT
Note: Minny needs a consistent LT. Martin will provide stability

7. Jaguars….Riley Reiff OT
Note: Jags need WR, but Floyd is a reach. They grab O-line instead

8t. Panthers…Dre Kirkpatrick CB
Note: A little high, but Carolina needs help in the secondary

8t. Dolphins…David Decastro OG
Note: Again, high for the pick, but Dolphins need help on the Right side of the O-Line

10. Bills…Courtney Upshaw LB
Note: Prime spot for a trade down, otherwise the Bills need help at LB

An interesting thought for you all; Heckert grabs Morris Claiborne with the first pick, move Sheldon Brown to FS, Haden and Claiborne at CB, and TJ Ward at SS. Makes me shudder to think of a secondary like this. Not a current priority, but damn that looks good lol.

This is a pretty good mock. I saw one on MTD that had us taking Jonathon Martin at #4 (WTF?)

One plus this year over last is that free agency happens before the draft so if the Redskins or Miami go blow the bank on someone like Flynn we’ll know if they’re going to move up for a QB or not.

I see Miami going after a QB in FA. Washington I believe is licking its chops at the thought of RG3 as their QB. You are right that Free Agency will be telling of how the draft will unfold.

No matter how good any secondary is, you’re still going to get thrown on.

Of course, but the thought of a secondary with Claiborne/Haden/Brown/Ward seems like it could be the best in the NFL.

dirtyjoe - January 3, 2012 reply

I’m drooling over the thought of that secondary and at the same time blowing chunks if we don’t take a QB or Blackmon.

Eh.. I think you’re getting way ahead of yourself. Haden and Ward had solid years but weren’t awesome. Brown hasn’t played safety (right?) in the NFL and Claiborne would be a rookie still. But I guess I don’t really know everybody int he NFL’s secondary so I can’t say with complete certainty where it would rank. I’d guess 5-10.

johnf34 - January 3, 2012 reply

Granted, next year maybe ranked 5-10. The year after though….look out. That Browns secondary would be lethal with experience.

dirtyjoe - January 3, 2012 reply

I don’t think improving the secondary has as much impact as improving the pass rush.

Yep. I don’t think it’s close either.

johnf34 - January 3, 2012 reply

it could be if there is a pass rush. If we have no pass rush and a good QB will have all day to throw, they will not look very good.

bross09 - January 3, 2012 reply

I would like it more if that secondary could actually come away with some picks.

I am not a Shurmur hater – but he is extremely lucky he will not be whacked a la Cam Cameron. You can say changing coaches like underwear are not a good thing, but the reality is that you either pay for a top notch coach – or not. When you go with a Shurmur type, you take a gamble, and the selection process is not accurate – so it is still best to cut your losses the instant you realize he is not the guy. No benefit of stability with the wrong guy. My biggest concerns with him:
1. No progress on offense from game 1 thru 16.
2. Pussified play calling.
3. Clock management and disorganization.
On the flip side – the guys did not mail in those last 2 games and played very hard and that and politics prolly saved him.

realmccoy - January 2, 2012 reply

1. False
2. A couple of time, maybe. It’s easy to second guess.
3. New HC with no OC – a mistake that is already set to be corrected.

I think your flip side point is a better evaluation of why Shurmur could be a good coach.
More likely though is you have no idea if he’s going to be good or bad because he clearly doesn’t have all the players he needs to execute the offense he wants to run.

Care to say why you believe number 1 is false? We barely outscored the 2008 team which featured one of the worst offenses I have ever had the misfortune of watching with DA and BQ.

Yes the scoring wasn’t there, we were apparently allergic to the end zone, but we seemed to move the ball much better between the 20s. After Pashos came back the QBs were not constantly under seige like they were early one. Our WRs started to make catches and we actually had a few plays over 20 yards (though not nearly enough). Honestly I’m not a big stats guy but I watch all the games and my eyeballs tell me they’ve looked better on offense. I would not blame anyone for contesting that point though.

The offense was pathetic anyway you slice it. I am more likely to place the blame at the feet of the QB, so I do hold out hope that with a good QB, Shurmur may look better. But he has to prove that much to me because this year did nothing to make me feel good about his abilities yet.

I personally felt that Colt had a better year than Shurmur.

realmccoy - January 2, 2012 reply

It’s definitely open to intepretation.

but he is extremely lucky he will not be whacked a la Cam Cameron.

yeah, because what Shurmur did is completely the equivalent of taking over a 6-10 team with Joey Harrington at the helm and somehow making it infinitely worse and only managing to win 1 game.

the guys did not mail in those last 2 games

so Shurmur gets all the blame for the bad clock management but the players did not mail it in and that saved him? The implication here is pretty clear that it’s not really that much in his control when in reality, its very likely that the players were really starting to buy into Shurmur and play for him, a la end-of-2009 Browns.

Few things for next (rebuilding) season
1. Re-sign D’Q and Hillis
2. Get a QB. Don’t care if it’s Luck, RGIII, or even overpaying for Flynn. This is a QB league, without one a team can’t go very far.
3. WR and TE help. Blackmon, DeSean, whoever (isn’t Brandon Lloyd a FA?). We need a #1 receiver to help the guys we have now grow. I also think we should hop on this league wide TE outcry. Maybe draft that Allen kid from Clemson with our second 1st rounder.

I think with those few things, this team could be 8-8 next year. Our D this year was really good for being so young, and with any resemblance of an offense should at least win more than 4 games

BELIEVELAND - January 2, 2012 reply

OK VOTE

Will the Browns take Robert Griffin III if he is available at the number 4 draft position? (provided Luck is already drafted)

I say NO

not if we can trade down

BIG K BIG K or we can try and get Mike Adams, Ohio State, OT (6-6, 320).

later in the draft

Please use the reply so we have an idea of what you are talking about.

You really think that will help?

I actually thought the non use of the reply button fit the tenor of the thread

So we are 3 no, Zero yes

USE THE REPLY BUTTON

That was like 6 lines of ignorance

whateva

are you going to vote?

On your stupid poll? No.

That’s 4 no, Zero yes

Icwutudidthar.

Thank you. Special Brownie must still be constipated

I just don’t like you and your inability to reply correctly.

Good then dont reply to me anymore

When you don’t use the reply feature, it becomes impossible to follow conversations.

SB may have been a tad raw, but his point is right. Please use the reply.

SB may have been a tad raw

I’m like a 4th round pick

Beau Bell?

No one’s that raw.

Chaun Thompson maybe?

We’d be kicking ourselves if we didn’t have SB.

sorry, he kept asking EVERY SINGLE PERSON and I sarcastically asked him if he was taking a poll and I gave him the idea…

What is wrong with the poll?

I don’t have a problem, SB was and I was making a joke/

OK I apologize

awesome ignorance

I did not need to hit the reply button I was not replying to BK19. I was stating a new fact

I think the problem is that you have never stated any facts. So, to say you stated a new one would actually be false itself.