Dawgs By Nature

Why? I don’t think we’d put him on the practice squad (assuming he is eligible). Do you just wish ill will on the guy?

OK, now I see that you are probably wanting him to clear so we can put him on the practice squad. Fair enough. Don’t think we would put him there but we’ll see shortly.

OK, at least from the rules on wikipedia, he is NOT eligible for the practice squad. He played in 10 games last year, and according to wikipedia, a player is not eligible if "if he has accrued a year of NFL experience (six or more games on a club’s 53-man active roster or official Injured Reserve list.) If the player was on the active list for fewer than 9 games during their “only Accrued Season(s)”, he maintains his eligibility for the practice squad."

Veikune played in 10 games?

That is mind blowing to me.

According to Tony Grossi, he did (again, like wikipedia, let’s take it with a grain of salt). But if true, he played in 10 games and never showed anything. I just can’t fault the staff for cutting him — the mistake, if any, was taking him in the first place.

Do you really expect a DE to be making tackles on our coverage unit?

No, I expect an ILB to though.

I wouldn’t expect one at the size he was last year to, but it might be a moot point since every article that mentions his play last year puts him on the return unit as a blocker.

I guess spotting him was kind of like the old Where is Waldo books.

I doubt he clears waivers.

but I can hope!

I hope we can keep him as well, but I am guessing that a team that has weaker rosters (Rams, Bucs, Lions, Raiders, etc.) will take a gamble that Veikune will live up to his draft status.

Cheap, young and presumably talented. Isn’t this the kind of guys we should be adding, not cutting?

I have to question why we cut him instead of Brown.

Me too. To be fair, Veikune has not played like he is capable of playing, so it wasn’t like this was out of nowhere.

rufio - September 7, 2010 reply

I’ve been predicting this since the first preseason game but I am surprised that Brown is higher on the chart than him.

Yet Titus Brown is still on the roster?

Browns town - September 7, 2010 reply

But Heckert, Mangini, and Holmgren know every facet of these guys. They watch them everyday and then study their tape. I am not happy we axed a 2nd pick, but I am confident Titus Brown is a better fit for the Browns than Veikhune. No use compounding a draft mistake by giving the player an entitlement to a roster spot over a hungrier or better player.

I am not happy we axed a 2nd pick

Actually, you should be happy that we axed him and didn’t keep him around just because he was a 2nd round pick — ie that our guys know when to cut bait. We should be unhappy that we picked him in the first place, though no matter how good you are, you are going to have some misses.

Duly noted. I am unhappy we picked him in the first place.

“Roberson was just released by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, so the team may also be using him for some inside information just for this week. He played in six games with Tampa Bay last season.”

GREAT observation Chris!

That is totally a Mangini-type of move to gain inside info like that.

theW0LF - September 7, 2010 reply

You don’t cut a second round pick one year later to get inside information on a 3-13 team.

I have been a critic of Veikune, but I don’t understand this. There are plenty of guys we could have cut and re-signed. I doubt we get a chance to keep Veikune.

This.

+1

We could not go into the season with 3 CBs and 12 LBs! You cannot dedicate almost 25% of the roster to this position. It is that simple. If Mangini brought him in just because of TB – he will be gone next week and we will have another CB in his place. Do you want to go into the season with a 32 year old CB, a rookie, and 1 veteran sort of in a “prime” of his career?

I can name 15 players that should have been cut before Veikune.

And before anyone asks:

1. Eric Barton
2. Titus Brown
3. Carlton Mitchell
4. Robert Royal
5. Alex Smith
6. Nick Sorensen
7. Chansi Stuckey
8. Ray Veterone
9. David Bowens
10. Kenyon Coleman
11. Chris Gocong

Okay, so maybe only 11.

I’d add just about any of our backup offensive linemen to that list. Every one of them can be replaced at any time.

True.

I disagree on a few (Coleman, Gocong for sure and also possibly stuckey) but I definitely agree with most of this list.

No way do I think Stuckey should get cut before Veikune. I could except anyone else on that list, but definetly not Stuckey, as thin as our WR’s currently are.

I think Stuckey is 100% replaceable.

While that could be true, I don’t see how he’s that replaceable at this moment. To me, he can be a very solid slot guy and I don’t know of anyone currently availble who’d be able to make the same contributions he could right now.

I doubt he has 15 catches for us this year.

I wouldn’t mind bringing in Mark Clayton (Tampa).

Alright, how bout’ a bet based on Stuckey’s performance?

Just for fun and braggin’ rights, mind you.

I’m game.

Wanna go the whole “name change” route for this one?

I like the Signature route myself.

Also, really dumb avatar pictures.

Eh, I don’t know how to do signatures. Also, we need at least one witness.

Uh, wut?

Click edit profile and write in the box that says signatures…

I am willing to do the avatar thing.

How many catches you want to do?

Let’s do an over/under on an ambitious 30 catches. If Stuckey doesn’t get to 30 by the end of the year, I’ll change my avatar for a whole year (something obviously appropriate). But as soon as he makes catch number 30, that’s game over, aight’?

Sounds like a deal to me.

Not sure why you just gave him 30 catches — B19K predicted 15 catches. You are a nice man.

Yeah, that’s generous. I think Stuckey will hover around 15 too.

skipkirk - September 8, 2010 reply

Blame my Butch Davis-like gut feeling.

Soo B19K doesn’t have to do anything for this bet?

I assume that if he finishes with over 30 catches, he will be able to choose an avatar for me.

I’m all about fairness.

And that is the bet.

Unless we really do bring in another receiver or somebody else takes that #3 spot, there’s no way he doesn’t get 15 catches.

Stuckey is still young and didn’t really get the offense when he came last year, he’s had a full TC with these guys and I believe it pays off….reports have indicated he’s looked good

year of the elf - September 8, 2010 via mobile reply

Right. Unfortunately the only thing I remember from him this preseason was a drop. I still agree, though. I expect him to do well this season.

I think Watson and Moore will Frankenstein themselves into our best slot WR.

Our two leading receivers last year had 34 catches.

Mass 34
Harrison 34
Furrey 23
Cribbs 20
Stuckey 19

Damn, we were awful last year, for the sake of the team I hope Bernie loses this bet.

It wouldn’t disappoint me in the least.

If Stuckey gets 30 catches, this offense will be MUCH better than I expect.

I think he gets 30-40.

It’s the final countdown!!!~

BrownDawg1409 - September 9, 2010 reply

FINAL COUNTDOWN!

If we’re replacing Stuckey, I’d rather have Bobby Engram back than Clayton.

I agree. Also, I think Michael Clayton is the guy in Tampa…To me, he sucks. If he could focus, he may be a solid receiver, but he has the concentration of Braylon Edwards without the gamebreaking speed or ability to separate.

Mark Clayton (ravens, now with rams) I may take over stuckey…however in my mind, they are all similarly as good (or as bad) and stuckey is the youngest.

No way on Gocong, Coleman or Stuckey, but I wouldn’t quibble with the rest.

I think that all of those guys must have a role on the team that they do well. Ventrone, sorensen, etc must be able to play special teams and impact the outcome of the game. It’s clear that Veikune just didn’t have whatever mangini wants in an NFL linebacker. While veikune seemed athletic he just never made any plays that i saw that made me think he had what it takes.

I think he just might not have any instincts or enough toughness or whatever you might need. Maybe his work habits are a joke or maybe he just isn’t very bright. Whatever it is I think that pretty much everyone on that list adds more value to the team (in one way or another) than veikune did, save for maybe eric barton. Though I will agree that it seems like only our starting offensive linemen deserve to be anywhere near an NFL roster.

jaws. - September 11, 2010 reply

aside from being a shitty linebacker, i guess veikune also is a shitty special teamer, meanwhile some of these other guys can either competently do a job on the offense or defense in a backup capacity (or in a package) or are at least useful on special teams. Veikune seemingly brought no value to the team in any facet. Oh well another wasted 2nd round pick. I can only wonder what would have happened had St. Louis passed on Laurenaitis one spot ahead of where we picked brian Robiskie.

jaws. - September 11, 2010 reply

Veikune has showed us nothing. I am still surprised he was cut over Brown, but the point is that if we have decided that he’s got no more than he’s shown us so far, it was the right move for both parties to let him go.

Trust me, I wasn’t a fan of Veikune.

I don’t support cutting a second round pick one year into his career. I don’t know if he will ever be good, but he is cheap and young, something we should be keeping.

This.

This.

This.

I want to ‘This’ this “this”.

C-C-C combo breaker!

I reaheheelllllly like saying that.

Glad you got the chance to, then.

i think i used it somewhere a few days back myself.

Where do you think I got it?

;D I also think it’s from… Street Fighter? maybe?

I wouldn’t know, I never got to play the classics. Though I thought it might be from Guilty Gear or something.

It’s from underrated fighting game Killer Instinct. Back when Rare made good games for Nintendo and not really disappointing ones for Microsoft.

Adrock2099 - September 8, 2010 reply

I used to play that KI I completely forgot about that, knew that I knew it from somewhere though.

DUDE! REALLY?! I OWN THAT GAME.

Best game I ever owned for my SN.

That game was pretty awesome.

Chief Wahoo - September 8, 2010 reply

I like seeing that said…it makes me laugh a little bit whenever its used.

Too bad this line of thinking wasn’t around during the Quinn Saga (not directed at you personally).

RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 7, 2010 reply

It’s probably easier to have that attitude when the person in question isn’t currently starting and actively costing you games.

I would think actively costing you games would make it easier to cut somebody.

And Quinn was making a lot more guaranteed money.

Chief Wahoo - September 8, 2010 reply

I really wish we would have cut Barton. Why a rebuilding team would cut a second year converted DL/LB player who was showing improvements is beyond me. I understand wanting vets at LB, but Fujita, Bowens and DJack should be enough.

Can you tell me of these improvements of which you speak?

Well, for one, he busted his ass in the offseason dropping 35 pounds and remaking his body for the position he was being asked to play. Second, he saw the field in the preseason and was our third leading tackler in game 4 (behind Benard and the also cut Asante).

Not a lot to go on, but for an admitted project, it seems strange to just give up on a young, inexpensive player who, at the very least, has enough of a work ethic to remake his body in a single offseason.

Correction: He lost 20 pounds, down to 235.

Did you attend TC at all this year or last? Veikune was in position much more often. Was in better shape for the position being asked to play. Was willing to play ST to get on the field. When he WAS on the field he seemed to be around the play even if it wasnt him making the play.

All of these are signs of a guy starting to get it. Not to mention there were older (Barton) and more deserving (Brown) guys who should have been behind him on the depth chart.

even if he didn’t improve, the fact that he is young, and still may have upside makes him more valuable in my mind than barton…unless they think he will be playing like he is 28 again (and is THAT healthy which I very much doubt)

On a side note, while people are going to rip Mangini for the Veikune pick 2 of our 3 2nd rounders last year are starting, Mack is looking like a soon to be all pro center, Maiva looked good in his limited time last year, and James Davis is pushing for carries.

Not bad for the first draft of a rebuild.

Just because they are starting doesn´t make them good players. But I agree that Mack has proved he is a player. MoMass has demonstrated some good things. Robo still has a lot to prove as last year was a bust. It looks as if he has worked hard and improved, so if he is a player your point is 100% valid.

MoMass was being guarded by #1 CB’s most of the season despite being a rookie and played pretty well. Robiskie slacked off last year and got in Mangini’s doghouse. Seems to have done a full 180 this offseason and was working harder then anyone at TC. Mack is widely considered a top 5 C in the league already, Maiava statistically outplayed Rey Maualuga (who was obviously the bigger name).

Robiskie slacked off last year

From everything I’ve read, Robiskie’s work ethic wasn’t the issue.

ive heard the opposite. I heard he didnt try in practice (much like Harrison) and didnt want to do ST.

Mangini disagrees:

The emergence of the second-year receivers, particularly Robiskie is of utmost importance. Robiskie has caught the attention of the coaches since OTAs and caught as many as six touchdown passes Friday morning.

"I think it has a lot to do with them because that’s why it was important at the time we drafted those guys," Mangini said. "They keep plugging away and keep working all season, after the season after practice on the jugs machine.

"Typically, people with high work ethic will get better."

I don’t know why the whole thing isn’t in quotes. It should be.

Hopefully this means Carlton Mitchell will get better. We need that burner.

If Mitchell can learn to catch the ball away from his body we have our future #1 WR to pair with MoMass (who I see as a solid #2)

That’s a huge “if”.

Him and the jug machine will be best friends.

If he has any interest in his NFL career, yes, they will.

Oooooh, you’re the best friend, that I’ve ever had~

I so wish I had a picture of Mtichell and the Jugs machine running through a flower patch right now…

Or on a romantic candle lit date?

Unless you’re best friends also your love interest, no. Song doesn’t fit that image anyway.

Unless you’re best friends also your love interest, no

running through a flower patch right now…

…What you do with your best friends is your business, I suppose.

But what Mitchell does with HIS is OUR business 100%.

There has to be a good photoshopper here somewhere..

I would but my photoshop computer is down right now.

Behind me is Simmsinns… ha.

I could manage in a pinch, but I’m pretty rusty.

is that from last year? Because thats what I am talking about. I understand he is busting it this season, but I heard that last season he really wasnt working that hard.

I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but as someone that played with robi, I feel confident telling you that work ethic is not an issue.

I find this cool still.

Didn’t know this. Where?

Chagrin Falls

I have to say, that’s pretty sweet. I’m sure you know that, though.

This. Yes we cut a second round pick after one season (why?), but we hit on quite a few picks last season. Let’s hope we keep it up. A lot of our picks’ success probably has to do with the coaching, so if Mangini and Co. keep it up, we’ll continue to have some success in the draft.

Well, they had to put their #1 CBs on someone, and Steptoe wasn’t available.

Seriously, though, he only drew the #1 CB because he was the biggest threat – but not necessarily a really dangerous threat at the time.

With our QBs playing (as Clark Judge said) like the Venus de Milo last year, it’s hard to imagine any of our receivers a big threats back then. But if you had to rank them, I think the guy that averaged over 18 YPC would be at the top of the list.

I don’t think the point is why they put #1s on him, but that he had to go up against #1s every game. The fact that he was covered by #1s is not evidence that he was perceived as a threat, but is a fact that should be taken into consideration when evaluating his production.

Yeah, you’re right. I completely misread that one.

It also means other teams respected him more than Furrey!

Picks like this kill me.

At least Robo and Massaquoi seem to be on the right track. 2 out of 3 is okay I guess.

skipkirk - September 7, 2010 reply

It really isnt the pick thats the issue, I think its the fact that we gave up on him too soon. Did anyone really expect someone who has played DL since high school to suddenly explode on to the scene as an ILB? OLB maybe, but ILB is alot different.

Yeah I know what you mean. We use a 2nd on him, acknowledge he’s a project, but then don’t go through with it?

Although to be honest, I can easily see Heckert saying he didn’t want him on the 53.

skipkirk - September 7, 2010 reply

And since Heckert didn’t draft him, he probably didn’t have that feeling of cutting a 2nd round pick, just cutting a guy that he didn’t think was what they needed.

Maybe the question should be, why draft a DE and try and turn him into an ILB?

Because Mangini had seen it work before with Bruschi.

I tend to think that was more the exception than the rule.

Bruschi was the exception, no doubt. But Veikune had the same frame and the same open hips that made Bruschi the exception. Big enough to rush the passer, athletic enough to drop into coverage, and fast enough to play sideline to sideline.

I understand the pick (and I say that as someone who was devastated on draft day when we took Veikune and left Shonne Green on the board).

I’m baffled by the cut.

I am baffled too. Its not ‘why did they turn a DE into an ILB’, its ‘why did they turn a DE into an ILB and then give up on the player after one season’.

Vrabel too, right?

Ryan Kelsey - September 8, 2010 reply

but wasn’t vrabel an OLB? so it was just DE to OLB…Bruschi was DE-ILB.

Vrabel lines up at both. Very flexibile player.

true, he is flexible. I don’t remember him lining up at ILB, but I don’t trust my memory on this…

He was strong and agile and seemed to work hard and do what he needed to do to help his team (playing some LB, DT, even NT in college). He was probably smart in the Mangini tests. Probably shared a lot of those characteristics with Bruschi. Doesn’t mean he would ever be that good, just the thought process in drafting him.

To be honest I was never a fan of the robiskie pick. Still am not. I really, really hope I’m wrong b/c I like the kid and want him to succeed of course, but he’s just sooo slow..

johnnyphoenix - September 7, 2010 reply

he’s not slow. by every measurable he has decent speed, and he was even a deep threat in college.

He’s not that slow. He was a track champion in high school so he’s got to be pretty fast.

Buckeye Brad - September 7, 2010 reply

he carried our 4×200.

He also runs a sub 4.5. For a guy who is 6’3" and significantly over 200lbs. that isn’t bad.

yeah. he just doesn’t run a 4.4 and is 6’3’’ like the elite downfield threats…but those guys are physical freaks in their own right.

I think I know what you meant, but sub 4.5 would be a 4.4, no?

possibly. I was thinking rufio meant he ran a 4.5 flat. Also, his combine time was a 4.49 so it was barely under 4.5. My point was that a lot of guys out there run just a tenth of a second faster and have the same size (like DHB or a Braylon) but those guys are in some ways, physical freaks.\

I think we are all saying the same point that he has very good physical skills, but not elite NFL physical skills

Braylon ran between 4.45 and 4.5.

And before you get to it, I know on Wikipedia it says he ran a 4.38 but if you follow the link to the cited source, it still says 4.45 and nothing about a 4.38.

Robiskie should be plenty fast for the NFL in terms of deep speed. He won’t be a guy who is going to look blazing fast while outrunning 5’8" corners, but he should be able to stretch the field effectively. He has other skills that should make him a good WR, like many other good WRs in the NFL who don’t run sub 4.40.

I totally agree with you. I thought braylon ran about a 4.4 flat. My bad on that one. Robo definitely has the skills to be a very good player and can stretch the field. He has the skills to be a very good WR in the league, he just might not have the skills to be a ‘great’ one (which is why he fell to the 2nd round). Granted, Reggie wayne did not have the prototypical NFL body nor elite speed.

Marques Colston, Anquan Boldin, Fitz, V Jax, Brandon Marshall, Wayne, all guys who didn’t run 4.4 flat.

Yeah. I also pointed out Reggie Wayne. Robiskie still could end up being a great player. I pointed to Wayne to say that. I just said he may not be able to be a great player Because he doesn’t have elite physical skills. These guys overcame critics saying they would never become great players. Robiskie may do that too (I said he might not have the skills to become ‘great’) but he might not. its way too early to tell.

I would say he is less comparable to the guys in the middle because those guys ARE more physically gifted than Robiskie (because of other factors like size and strength). He could be a reggie wayne type, but lets not get ahead of ourselves with the comparison.

4.4 ≠ requirement for bring a good NFL wideout, all I was saying.

and I agree. It certainly gives you a leg up physically, but it is nowhere near a requirement.

Wasn’t Robo considered a mild reach at where we picked him? I know MoMass was. Just to preempt everyone, I agree that what the “experts” say and what actual NFL teams do during the draft are very different things.

I think a ‘mild reach’ in that he was projected as a mid-late 2nd rounder and was taken early in the 2nd.

Yes, Robi was considered a slight reach. Depending on who you believe, Mass was either a spot on pick or another slight reach.

I try not to comment too much on Mass’s college career because i honestly didn’t pay too much attention to him, but I had a buddy from Cartersville, GA who is a huge Dawgs fan he was always complaining about Mass not living up to his potential. He felt he was a good receiver but he could never put it together to be great. I hope we can find a way to get him over that hump.

Villeslgr - September 9, 2010 reply

He was definitely overshadowed by Green, but from what I saw of him his biggest problem was the dropsies.

rufio - September 10, 2010 reply

Well we took the first step in getting the influence of Edwards away from him.

It’s 12:26 am and Braylon Edwards still sucks.

Villeslgr - September 10, 2010 reply

I was just showing a coworker this morning the wide open drop he had last year with the Jets where it bounces off his face mask. REC

Kimble_79 - September 10, 2010 reply

We should make a “make the world aware braylon edwards sucks foundation” (very tentative sucky title, just like BE).

Villeslgr - September 10, 2010 reply

please consider my application to become a charter member.

Dawg Nuts - September 10, 2010 reply

What always made BE seem like a physical freak to me is not so much the way he would reach out in every which direction to grab a pass that was just a bit outside (Thanks, Derek!), but the way he could so completely avoid the ones that came right to him. I mean, how does anyone with a pulse miss some of those? Freaky, no?

“A” 4.4 = 4.40.

“sub 4.5” = 0.00 to 4.49

ok, I got it now.

HS track champ does not equal NFL receiver speed.

discoinferno083 - September 7, 2010 reply

I worded my first comment poorly. I guess I need to say Robiskie ‘seems’ slow. I dunno, it’s just a somewhat unfounded opinion, I suppose—although I’m still skeptical of him. He just seems slow to me making his cuts/footwork.

johnnyphoenix - September 9, 2010 reply

I could go either way on Vecky.

Chris, the Browns Board is running a survival football and a pick ’em league on yahoo.

you aware? Is this info worth sharing (posting?) here?

I’m sure there are many that cross over on both sites, but the more the merrier, I would think.

I have the id and pass is you need ’em.

Boooooooo!

RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 7, 2010 reply

Admit it. You’re just going to miss using the term “Veikunage” here.

That’s part of it, for sure.

no reason to stop, it can just apply to more people.

Well I’m glad we did not keep Veikune just because he was a second round pick. I agree with whoever said this was a Heckert move. I think Mangini drafted Veikune because he thought he was going to be another Gocong. The guy that got away while he was with the Jets and this would his second chance to get his guy. I don’t know how Gocong is going to be this season; we will have to see.

FreddieC - September 7, 2010 reply

so are you actually happy to see him gone? you are glad we didn’t keep him b/c of his draft position and then paint this as a ‘mangini reach’

Yes, I’m happy to see him gone. I don’t know if I would have called him a “Mangini reach” because Browns did not have a 3rd round pick which more likely Veikune would have went in that round. I would say a poor decision based on his heart and not knowledge. It is interesting that Philly receives 3 picks for 59, makes you wonder what the Browns would have received if instead of drafting Veikune, we could have traded down and maybe received more picks. I’ve learned through my many fantasy sports drafts, it is always better to draft for value than to reach for a player that you like i.e. favorite player or for a specific position. I guess what I am trying to say the Browns or Mangini should have drafted for best available and not need or want.

FreddieC - September 8, 2010 reply

I’ve learned through my many fantasy sports drafts, it is always better to draft for value than to reach for a player that you like

in no way whatsoever does this give you any idea what goes on with an NFL team and their draft strategy; if it did, we’d all be NFL consultants. its called fantasy for a reason.

Dawg Nuts - September 8, 2010 reply

This also applies to Franchise Mode in Madden.

You’re tripping. It’s called Franchise Mode, of course it’s real life. Seriously?

Totally agree, I was just making a reference that the Browns should draft for value and best available and less about need especially in the early rounds. The late rounds is where you can take a gamble and draft for need and potential. I am nowhere implying because I’m a fantasy GM, I can be a real GM. I realize the difference between fantasy and reality but still there are similar analogies when drafting players of any franchise.

FreddieC - September 8, 2010 reply

how many people have gone from fantasy GM to real GM?

Kokinis did the opposite.

Why isn’t this green?

Buckeye Brad - September 9, 2010 reply

who?

johnnyphoenix - September 9, 2010 reply

Kotknus (sp)

notthatnoise - September 9, 2010 reply

But again another wasted second round pick. The Browns never have luck with the second round. It seems like they always have to reach with that pick.

FreddieC - September 7, 2010 reply

The Browns never have luck with the second round.

It really is amazing how little we have gotten out of the second round since 99, but I guess that could be said for just about every other round as well.

Eric Wright, MoMass (looks good for a second year player) DJack, Poole (good when he wasnt concussed)

We really havent missed as much in the second round as you guys would like to think.

And Robo seems to be coming along. Now it looks like we have Ward, too. Who knows, maybe Hardesty after he recovers. No reason to write him off yet.

exactly. I know we are Browns fans but that doesnt mean we have to by cynical ALL the time.

Agreed. I prefer to see our glass half full.

Good list. I like all those guys, and Eric Wright has been one of the most successful picks we have made — a guy we took a risk on and were dead right about (the guy has not had character issues here).

its the first round and the later rounds that kill us.

I would also like to add to the list Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt. we just kept picking WRs in the 2nd and took too many after that (morgan and Davis were lightweight busts)

Dennis Northcutt sucked.

Only thing I EVER remembered him doing for us was running to one side of the field then running to the complete OTHER side of the field and score a TD.

I was angry and happy. But that’s all I ever remember.

You don’t remember him dropping a pass my grandma could catch that would have sealed a playoff win against the steelers?

He’s a classic new Browns player – 1 step fwd, 2 steps back

HenryDawg - September 8, 2010 via mobile reply

This is what i remember. That game pains me still.

I will always remember that every time I think of Northcutt.

Buckeye Brad - September 9, 2010 reply

I disagree. As a pure receiver, possibly, but I thought he was a great return man. If we are going purely on WR merits, I would put him with Quincy Morgan and Andre Davis.

If the best thing about a second round draft pick is his kick return ability, that pick probably sucks.

Hence, Northcutt was not a good pick at 32nd overall.

I disagree. that doesn’t inherently mean he sucks, but that doesn’t make him ‘great’. Northcutt was IMO, in that realm that he wasn’t a successful pick per se (in that he never lived up to his draft spot or became a great player) but I don’t think he truly ‘failed’ and was a ‘bust’. he is in that realm between success and failure, kind of like football Purgatory. Similar to Jason Campbell (who is not to me a ‘bust’ but never really lived up to any of the expectations or where he was drafted)

If we had drafted him in th 4th he wouldn’t have been a bust. We didn’t whiff on the pick, but we hit a dribbler back to the mound.

I would say bases-on-balls. No hit, but no going back to the dugout.

I agree that in the 4th, he would have been better value.

I don’t think he was all that great for us as a pick, however he is still playing. Or rather was.

exactly. He wasn’t particularly great, but wasn’t a ‘bad pick’. I could probably go back and point to several guys who would have been worse picks at that point and several who would have been better. Also, it says something that he is a 10 year vet.

Out of the 30 picks after him, only half were still in the league in 2008 (so 9 years in the league), 17 lasted until 2007 (56%, 8 years in the league) and only 5 of the 30 were on an NFL team, even training camp, in 2010 (and only 1, Deon grant, was a skill position guy; the rest are lineman).

35 Receiving YPG over his Cleveland career for the 32nd pick in the 2000 NFL draft.

That’s a bad pick.

add also 28 punt return yards and 4 rushing yards. Or in a 16 game season:

45 catches, 556 yards, 56 rushing yards,

41 Punt returns for 420 yards.

for a 2nd or 3rd option playing with mostly bad QBs his whole career here, almost 600 yards a season is not bad. it is not particularly great but is not bad. Plus, he occasionally contributed at gunner.

While his stats aren’t great, he still amassed 1,000 total yards a season and got around 620 yards from scrimmage. there were much worse picks we could have made with that pick.

Looking at the 2000 draft and the 2nd round picks, out of the 30 guys in the 2nd taken after him, there are only 4 I would for sure take over him (Deon Grant, Marvel Smith, Mike Brown, Chad Clifton) and another 4 I would take based on team need (Fred Robbins, Bobbie Williams, Darren Howard, Brad Meester).

There were 9 WRs also taken in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of that draft. He had the third or 4th best career out of all of them (after Darrell Jackson and Laverneus coles and possibly Jerry porter).

He might have not been the best player, but looking back, it was one of the smarter moves this organization made and one of the better picks in that round of the draft.

You can type up a freakin’ thesis if you want, but if the best thing your second round draft pick does is return punts (not even all kicks, just punts), then that is a bad second round draft pick.

You find punt returners in the 7th round or undrafted. You don’t waste second round picks on them, especially when you are one year into building a roster from scratch.

You want to know why the Browns have sucked for 11 years? Because of second round picks like Dennis Northcutt.

I’m not even going into the fact that the Browns at that time had yet to draft an offensive lineman to protect Couch, yet instead decided to draft another WR. Northcutt was a bad pick on April 15th 2000, and he did nothing over his career to disprove that.

Yes.

Then what is Chaun Thompson?

Perfect example of a Butch Davis draft pick?

North Coast Flea - September 10, 2010 reply

I was looking for a funnier adjective than “bad”. “Butch Davis” is less funny, more sad.

rufio - September 10, 2010 reply

Epic fail?

I still say he lost our last playoff game.

his contribution was certainly significant…

Dawg Nuts - September 8, 2010 reply

This.

Outside of the Butch Davis Era, we were able to get very good value from the 2nd round. We got a couple of solid WRs (northcutt, kevin Johnson). even in the Butch Davis era, we were able to pick up good values in Sean Jones and Brodney Pool. In all reality, the browns have actually been fairly successful in the 2nd round…even when compared to other teams.

Q: How many 2nd round picks have the Patriots cut in the last 5 years?

I will guess 75%.

Hmm, I wonder what Mangini’s position on this cut was. I’m not trying to stir any cleveland.com controversy, I just wonder who’s decision this was.

This one pick is far, far more detrimental than all of the 2008 trades combined.

kwoog - September 7, 2010 reply

This is false.

What’s hilarious is that I made the case against Savage’s interest in Russell like 5 times, a few of which before you even had a login. So no, I didn’t feel like repeating myself.

More importantly, as to the issue, make your case if you have one. Like I did multiple times.

kwoog - September 7, 2010 reply

I am pretty sure I’ve been a member of this site longer than you. Not that it matters but you brought it up. Everything else is false.

TheDriveStillHurts - September 7, 2010 via mobile reply

Kwoog has been around for awhile, he just doesn’t post all the time. I think he’s overseas?

No, he’s a draft consultant for the Philadelphia Eagles.

Haha. Rec.

I was going to leave that one alone.

Leave which alone?

What you put. I was going to leave that area alone, but since you put it. He could quite possibly be scouting overseas. Maybe Russia or Buffalo.

Or he’s planning some sort of tag-team with Moony?

buuuuuuuh?!

Dawg Nuts - September 8, 2010 reply

I don’t think Moon agrees with his talent evaluations, but I can’t really remember.

I think he scouted Hawaii in last year’s draft…

Kwoog has been around for awhile, he just doesn’t post all the time. I think he’s overseas?

I know he has, and I am pretty sure I have been around longer — I joined in 2007 right at the beginning of the season. I like kwoog; I think he presents the counter to a lot of Phil Savage bashing that I and others go a little overboard with at times. But I also like joking with him — he never seems to have a sense of humor about it though.

Kwoog has been here longer, I’m sure.

Nope. Just checked — I joined on September 23, 2007. kwoog joined on April 22, 2008.

Kwoog is a larger “member” than others though.

This is one of those quality rather than quantity things.

Huh? You said he was here longer. You were dead wrong. Now you go and insult me because you were. Pretty lame but it’s typical of your comments here.

Hm, honestly don’t know why I said that.

Carry on.

And honestly, it wasn’t an insult.

Chris, BB, Kwoog, Rufio, B19K and Ryan are kind of the top council of posters on here.

Fair enough.

I never saw kwoog in the same class as the others. mooncamping too is one of the most well-known posters here as well. Now, kwoog is no mooncamping — there’s only one moon — but you get my point.

Now the question is, who’s on that second-tier of “lesser well known than the above group, but still pretty well known amongst the site” group?

let’s hold a vote! someone make a fanpost! it’s not like it will end badly!

I’m all for a “Most recognizable member” poll if there’s enough support. I’d think we’d have to word it carefully though so that there isn’t any unneccesary. . . “debates”, let’s call them, that distract from the overall goal of the site; i.e. actual football.

Nothing good will come from this. lol

Sounds like fun.

You’d come at the bottom, curse out BB because somehow the biased son-of-a-bitch re worked the poll, you’d get a warning on the next log – in, laugh it off and argue with people on why you don’t live in a gay state.

I’m game.

(The son-of-a-bitch line is all in good fun.)

Then I suggest we get Chris’s approval before attempting such poll.

No, he’ll just ruin the fun before it begins.

If he has a problem with it, he will delete accordingly.

this is a terrible idea, especially given the recent community announcement.

my thoughts exactly after reading this thread

Kimble_79 - September 8, 2010 reply

Shhh.

Yeah, let’s try to avoid a tailspin worth of comments comparing members…everyone here contributes in their own right, even if you’re a reader who never posts. The exception are those who troll or get banned.

Chris Pokorny - September 8, 2010 reply

Yes.

RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 8, 2010 reply

Gosh, Chris. You probably won’t even support my follow-up idea, in which the lowest ranked poster by poll result gets voted off the DBN island every week. I mean, think of the entertainment value there….

Like, off forever? That would be funny as hell.
I would just change my ISP and come back with a vengeance.

Sounds about right.

Don’t know where that “gay state” thing came from from, but I can do that for the sake of your prophecy.

San Fran.

That is all.

This is definitely heading towards a second Community post.

You can’t honestly be comparing kwoog to moon because he liked Phil Savage.

Savage did a lot of things that I liked. Then he panicked because he thought we were close to contending and he knew if we weren’t he would lose his job. This was a correct assumption, and really his biggest downfall.

Prior to that, Phil had a great plan and scouted well. He got what looked like key players at the key positions: pass rusher, LT, QB, CB, WR, NT in a 3-4. Romeo didn’t develop any of them and had a different football philosophy regarding personnel and the two couldn’t work together.

I think he meant more along the lines of DBN notority amongst regular readers.

Yes.

Ok fair. But he shouldn’t be noted as some sort of absurd person with extremely…strange…ideas about the game because he likes Savage.

He should also be noted for (maybe?) introducing us to the concept of the Straw Man, for being a pretty intelligent if outspoken poster, and for using hyperbole liberally.

I also enjoy his crayon creation.

Eh, I’m not a big fan of it. Looks kinda…sad. Like a sad crayon drawing. Or a sad clown painting.

It’s actually supposed to be sad. It’s from a “children’s comicbook” (for adults) that my roommate and I made in grad school. It’s about two little French boys (Antoine and Rene, any 400 Blows fans?) who are extremely and precociously existentialist… in childish situations (birthday parties, Elementary school, christmas morning, etc)…

that actually sounds pretty cool.

I’d love to read this.

I can’t dig them up, being in Korea. We thought they were funny, the subject matter presented in dumbed-down, translation.com-style narration. Like, the Christmas morning one said something to the effect, in multiple scene drawings, "On Christmas the young boys run downstairs and look under the tree. There are many presents. They open them and thank their families for the gifts. But one box is missing. There is no box which contains Faith. These presents can mean nothing without Jesus in their hearts."

But I digress…

What’s ‘hyperbole’?

But yes, I do agree with that point.

It’s an extreme exaggeration.

I’m so hungry, I could eat a horse.

I’m so doomed even Joe Thomas can’t save me?

That’s just a false statment. You almost got it though.

Braylon Edwards is so bad he couldn’t catch a staph infection?

This one is pretty good.

“Phil Savage was a genius” instead of “Phil Savage had some things right, most of them before he panicked.”

He has a point but it is probably too extreme.

The game after the Superbole? e?

Western Reserve - September 8, 2010 reply

He should also be noted for (maybe?) introducing us to the concept of the Straw Man, for being a pretty intelligent if outspoken poster, and for using hyperbole liberally.

One of the more eloquent underhanded compliments I’ve seen around here. Kudos.

I’d never used hyperbole in a million years. (do I have to put /sarc/ here?)

It does seem you’ve been here longer, officially. I actually lurked at Let’s Go Tribe as early as ’05 before signing up there (April 2006, the Crisp/Marte deal got me to sign up). And I found DBN pretty early after that, I recall. I lurked at DBN for a while for sure… surprised it was 2 years…

It seems like most of the time your comments referencing me are just gratuitous… Perhaps I’m missing the “deadpan” delivery across the interwebs, but they don’t seem to be jokes… more like antagonization. Either way, it’s a fine line and I’ll know to treat them as jokes from now on (assuming they “have” to go on!).

I like you as well DSH, and you’ve exposed many of my arguments for Savage as overly apologist, as I think I’ve exposed that people bash the former GM far too much. It’s irrelevant what’s occurred in greater quantities, the former or the latter.

In any event, as a final comment on the subject, my pro-Savage stance was always grounded more in a belief in organizational stability, rather than actually revering Phil. Cheers.

Yeah, I’m in South Korea, I’ve only been lurking in the offseason. Busy trying to get a professorship over here.

Kwoog has been around for several years, since before me. I don’t know how long you have been here.

Don’t make him pull out the dates.

I don’t know if Kwoog re did his profile but I would assume he’s been here much longer than ’07

Shaun Rogers was a detriment, now?

Michael Jay - September 7, 2010 reply

He is saying that busting on Veikune was worse than trading for SR. Kwoog would be biased in favor of Rogers if anything, because Savage dealt for him.

Actually, I’m saying that busting on Veikune is worse than getting Corey Williams for a 2nd, and nothing out of the 3rd and 7th (or whatever it was) round picks in 2009 that Savage dealt to draft Beau Bell and Paul Hubbard…

I was actually excluding the Rogers deal from the comparison, b/c that trade was so obviously shrewd.

that was a pretty awesome trade.

How many of those later round picks are still on an NFL roster? I believe the only one is Atyba rubin (a great pickup). Right now, Veikune has no team, because he just got cut, but he has enough talent to be picked up and may be able to stay on a team longer than those guys.

I could be wrong. Missing on one 2nd round pick might not be the end of the world. I just think it’s more egregious, when all’s said and done, than the mistakes of the 08 draft (which are brought up incessantly). Again, I could be wrong.

Neither is good in my opinion. I don’t really want to compare the two drafts especially because we have trades for players to factor in, but you could easily classify the Corey Williams trade as almost the same thing as the Veikune miss.

I sincerely hope that starting with this last draft, our three headed front office will vastly improve our draft results over the next several years.

Kimble_79 - September 8, 2010 reply

I agree. that is what definitely puts it over the edge to me. the fact that we missed on every pick except rubin from rounds 4-7 is pretty bad on its own.

It really isn’t. If you get a 350+lbs NT who can play NT in the NFL from rounds 4-7 in any given year, you’ve done your job.

The trades up for the other players were terrible, and another example of Phil’s worst quality: a lack of patience. I would have been totally fine using one draft to acquire BQ, Rogers, Williams, and Rubin, but losing future picks was pretty dumb.

yes. Getting a NT late is good. HOWEVER, if you have 5 picks in rounds 4 and later and only 1 can stay on an NFL roster, even if that player is a solid NT, that isn’t particularly good. Its nice to find one player and i am glad savage left us rubin, but you don’t build a successful team with a 20% success rate in rounds 4 and later.

What is a good success rate for rounds 4 and up?

Probably about 20%, depending on your need for ST players.

I would think significantly higher. Not specifically guys having success with your team but maybe with another team. No one outside of Rubin has had any success and no one outside of rubin has been able to stay on an NFL roster not run by Phil Savage

Seeing as 50% of first rounders bust, 20% in later rounds sounds reasonable.

Agree, if anything, I think that 20% may be high

Kimble_79 - September 8, 2010 reply

So do I.

Especially if you’re only looking at one year. I would think if you could get one guy after the 4th who becomes a quality starter, you’ve done a good job. If you can get 2 or 3 guys who can either become ST guys or guys who bounce around the league for a few years, I would imagine that would be a good job as well.

Anyone have the link Golan just posted about 2nd rounders? I just find it hard to believe there is a great success rate on drafting guys past the 4 round.

That was my thinking.

possibly…its all about how you define a bust. a ‘bust’ could be someone like Kyle Kosier who was drafted by one team and ‘busted’ (even considering his low draft position) but then turned into a decent player on another team.

If we are talking busting in general, maybe 50% of players ‘bust’ for their teams but only 30% ‘bust’ in the sense that they never do anyting in the NFL. these are random numbers, but show that it all depends on how we are talking about busting, because to some, kosier would be a bust, but he is not how I am defining the savage ‘busts’ from that draft, because THEY busted on other teams too.

I wouldn’t consider a player who contributes in the NFL a bust as a draft pick, obviously that player had the ability to contribute, the team that drafted him just failed in some other area of his development.

yeah. I agree with you. I wasn’t sure if they meant the fact that someone is a bust if they just busted for the team that drafted him. Tuba rubin is the only player we drafted that is currently on an NFL roster (and it hasn’t even been 3 years; the amount of time they say to wait to evaluate a draft)

So basically what you are saying is that you are backtracking out of your earlier statements?

not at all. maybe I was harsh to judge, the # without sufficient other info, but I don’t know how everyone defines ‘bust’

Williams was never used correctly under Romeo. Ryan used him well and I thought he was close to worth it last year. Factor in that Phil didn’t care about his age because he was erroneously in “win now” mode, and it isn’t as egregious as people made it sound.

Missing on Veikune wasn’t good either, obviously, but 2/3 picks in the second isn’t terrible either. Especially considering the other players taken in the 2nd that year and the players on the board when Veikune was chosen.

I thought Williams wasn’t very good last year outside of 1-2 games. He didn’t even start for most of the season. We used a 2nd round pick on a backup.

The fit may have been bad, but Savage knew Romeo ran a 3-4.

I think I have always said that Phil’s two greatest shortcomings were not working with Romeo and panicking. Hopefully, this regime can make the differences in philosophy work.

Williams played very well for us last year, IMO. I think you are correct in that you want a guy getting paid that much and who we essentially took in the 2nd round to be on the field more, but just because he didn’t start doesn’t mean he was on the field less. We used a heavy rotation last year.

I noticed V’s name called more this preseason. Wonder what happened.

tribe71 - September 7, 2010 reply

The current theory on cleveland.com has Heckert dumping Veikune in a transparent attempt to shift attention away from the Hardesty FAIL.

You must be a masochist to even try to read that drivel.

I only read a few pages. Even I have limits. And as bad as cleveland.com is, The Bucs SBN Blog is worse.

I’ll take your word for it, if it’s that bad I don’t want to go there.

My. God.

I just read your encounter over there. Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be their strong suit.

link?

I want this link

Yikes.

I just get so used to not having to see subject lines that its almost frightening seeing all that boldness.

I totally jumped in.

Okay, seriously, after reading that and the Lion’s blog a couple of weeks ago, can someone please rate all 32 blogs for me? I’ve started thinking that this is one of the classiest team sites out there and I hate seeing all of these trolls on the other sites when we play them.

I agree with this blog being one of the best. Are there any similar blogs?

LGT is a little more dictatorial but just as good.

Which one’s that?

Indians…Not football though…but another good cleveland SBN blog…

DBN – We call each other Hitler and we’re still the best damn SBN blog.

rec!

This might be your best post ever.

Ryan Kelsey - September 8, 2010 reply

This IS your best post ever

Kimble_79 - September 9, 2010 reply

San Fransisco’s 49ers blog is good. I used to be more active over there because they were my team before middle school. Less so recently.

Denver’s is also decent, they had a guy going “Mile High University” who mostly knew what he was talking about in terms of Xs and Os.

That’s an awesome username.

Think of all the poon.

Hmm….I’m actually interested in how the Tebow-mania’s been handled over there…

Also, Jman is pretty cool.

The X and O’s guy on Denver is good, but their blog is full of the biggest homers I have ever seen.

Yes it is.

The MHR guy is OK, but not at the level of what Gahnki and Ross are doing over at Along the Olentangy. Ross’ old/other blog is phenomenal as well.

I posted at the Jets blog once and didn’t regret it. The few people I talked to were polite and knowledgable.

Oh…Bross came over too.

Shocked. /sarc

I just read it and I am so about to dive in.

Dive in using smart, cohesive discussion of course.

Carefull, they have Lv. 5 Internet Trolls!

Oh, I just pulled some actual intellectual content on their asses.

I’m expecting a “WELLZ, THE BROWNSES ARE STILL A BUNCHA BUMS!” on every comment.

I thought trolls were immune to intellect spells?

They have a natural resistance to it yes.

that blog doesn’t make me have confidence in the public schooling of Florida.

And how creative is Bucs Nation?

Once again, as Bernie said, reading comprehension seems to be on the low side.

The blog used to be called Buc’Em, but had to be changed because it was too similar to the curse word and was difficult for SB Nation to market to potential advertisers.

Chris Pokorny - September 8, 2010 reply

Right, but they could’ve tried harder.

Haha. Reminds me of an old joke that i used to love as a kid:

It’s Halloween. A lady, basket of candy in hand, answers a knock at her door….

Lady: Hello, there! What can I do for ya?
Boy: Bick or Beat!
Lady: Ah, I think you mean Trick or Treat, right?
Boy: Yeah…Bick or Beat.
Lady: Well what are you supposed to be?
Kid: I’m a birate! Arrr!
Lady: You mean that you’re a pirate don’t you?
Kid: Yeah, that’s what I said. I’m a birate.
Lady: Well if your a pirate, where’s your buccaneers?
Kid: Right here lady, where’s your buckin’ eyes?!?

This joke was the greatest thing ever for at least three, maybe four days in the third grade.

BURN.

discoinferno083 - September 7, 2010 reply

has anyone noticed that we are implementing the “LB’s are a dime-a-dozen” strategy?

unfortunate, but not terribly surprising. He was mentioned in some on-the-bubble threads (maybe).

hopefully, he comes back our way and plays well.

This annoys me. Very much so,

four 2009 second rounders have already moved on.

disappointing, but I’m sticking to the “trust the new regime” philosophy. holmgren and heckert have both had success, they know who they want and who they don’t.

Dawg Nuts - September 7, 2010 reply

But neither have ever ran a 3-4 defense. If we’re cutting young, inexpensive hybrid linebackers, I say that’s bad news on the stability front. Mangini is gone at the end of the year, for sure. No matter what the team does this year.

And all of a sudden, dumping Wimbley for a third round pick makes a lot more sense.

You think he’s sabotaging our LB corp before he get’s canned?

Mangini is gone at the end of the year, for sure. No matter what the team does this year.

You think so?

I thought it weird too because he is the DBN Mangini homer.

He was also the Veikune homer. I think he’s still just in the 5 stages of grief.

I’m beginning to think so.

Why?

emily522 - September 8, 2010 reply

The difference in philosophy behind personnel decisions between the Walsh and Belichick systems is one of the biggest things they will have to work out.

It is embedded in everything Mangini will want to do, at least defensively.

Have any Walsh disciples run the 3-4? I thought the Walsh guys were more focused on offense so it would surprise me if none of them ever used a defensive coordinator who was able to convince one of them to install the 3-4.

yeah. its mostly offense. the defenses are varied in the walsh tree. some normal 4-3, some tampa 2, some 3-4.

these are some of the walsh tree coaches I KNOW ran (or run) a 3-4.

-Mike Shanahan (running it now, I don’t think he used to though, though I could be wrong)
-Mike McCarthy
-Mike Tomlin
-John Harbaugh
-Brian Billick
-Singletary (Walsh tree through Baltimore)

There are roughly 30 coaches on the Walsh coaching tree. 6 of them have run or do run a base 3-4 D. Not a lot, but some. The walsh guys mostly were offense so they usually didn’t worry about D, however they did tend to have more of a 4-3 base Defense. granted, 10 years ago, most teams WERE 4-3 Defenses and you do see the trend in the newer coaches from the tree being more inclined to run a 3-4 D. Maybe they are slightly less likely than someone not from the Walsh tree to run a 3-4, but their system doesn’t have a base D.

Yes, mostly offense. I guess it really matters what you mean by “3-4”.

McCarthy is running a 3-4 in GB, but they are mostly a one-gap team. Shannahan is running it as well, and I don’t know if he is going to go the 1-gap SD/Cowboys route, or if Mike Nolan had some big influence on him.

And it isn’t so much 3-4 or 4-3, it is the way the roster is constructed and the way the playbook interacts with that. Ideally, you have the Xs and Os to match your Jimmys and Joes. Belichick likes lots of versatile players who are all pretty good. He will have some stars on his defense, but he’d rather have 2 very good players who give him more scheme versatility than the best player in the league.

Walsh’s personnel style (and therefore playbook), from what I understand, is built on star power.

Belichick is going to run a lot of different fronts (formations), but he is probably going to 2-gap. He needs physical players who are smart enough to understand the entire playbook, and versatile enough to get the job done at many places on the field.

Walsh-tree teams typically 1-gap, and the front doesn’t necessarily matter. A 4-3 under is more or less a 1-gapping 3-4 with one more guy’s hand on the ground.

The Licensed Pessimist - September 7, 2010 reply

seems like the two could easily co-exist. I’d say that Holmgren has basically given mangini the keys to the team on the defensive side of the ball at least. We spent our first two picks on defense, and specificially on mangini-type green sticker guys. So that leads me to believe that this year the focus was on giving Eric Mangini some defensive personnel that he could work with.

As for general philosophy it seems like the two schools have a lot in common: detailed gameplanning, dedicated and meticulous advance scouting, scripting playcalls, demanding smart and disciplined play, and efficient use of practice time. Bill Belicheck himself has seemingly embraced the bill walsh model of offense: with its reliance on short timing pass patterns and rejection of the “establish the run” principle.

jaws. - September 11, 2010 reply

It’s amazing how people on this board fall in love with player’s who have absolutely nothing to offer. He was a horrible pick, he didn’t have a position, and he wasn’t going to get better out of the blue.

People seem to think he will develop just because of his athleticism, but there have been MANY athletic specimen who have busted in the NFL. Get over it

And some people on this board always see the glass as completely empty when it’s half full, so what is your point?

The Licensed Pessimist - September 7, 2010 reply

the later are usually right, as in this situation;-)

Depends on how late you are. Hindsight is always 20/20.

The Licensed Pessimist - September 7, 2010 reply

I’ve expressed my thoughts of Veikune being a flop the day after he was drafted. In theory he shouldn’t be dropped so early; but he was so worthless to the team and showed such a lack of potential that it’s justified. Especially since he was drafted on Mangini’s crappy logic and he was the one who dropped him; showing his status as a player.

Mangini and McDaniels have the same draf

Last I checked, Heckert had final say in the roster.

This and no one else in the NFL had a worse draft than the Broncos.

I think their first two picks weren’t bad. I don’t recognize the names of the rest. But despite the hate for Tebow, he hasn’t looked too bad in preseason. Granted, Brady didn’t set the bar too high.

This is of course if you’re talking about this year.

Sure but it was still a huge risk. He’s still played against third stringers and he still has huge problems with his delivery…

Tebow was a huge reach and Bey-Bey was a bit of a reach too (I also think he’s a bit overrated). Thomas is also not the kind of WR who is going to have a big impact and may take a couple years to become an impact player.

yep. Tebow, Reach. Bey-Bey, Reach for a raw player in the 1st round.

Beadles, HUGE reach. I would rank him about the 6th guard (or 7th) coming out…but he was taken 2nd. above Asamoah, Jerry, Ducasse, Johnson, and Lauvao. I would rank him right around Lauvao (maybe slightly below) and we got him a round and a half later. Walton was also a reach (mostly b/c of his size and potential to be able to handle NTs).

I would rank them quite possibly at the bottom at this point.

I was making a witty joke on your use of later. As in the late ones are operating off of hindsight. I wasn’t directly responding to your assessment of Veikune then or now.

You are rarely, RARELY ever right.

The Licensed Pessimist - September 8, 2010 reply

I’m usually right as far as personnel moves. Just in the past week alone two DBN favorites that I said suck got cut; Francies and Veikune. Me hyping Delhomme every since he was signed is another prediction. The jury’s still out on that but people are starting to jump on the bandwagon

Francies was on the PUP a lot last year, a lot this training camp and was rarely able to show what skills he may have had, ohh great prediction.

Veikune never seemed to fit into what they were trying to do and never seemed to be given the chance he needed to prove it. He was hurt and has always been at the bottom of the roster, once again, great prediction.

Are people disappointed while you aren’t? Yes. Should it be a reason for you to pat yourself on the back because you think you picked two cuts that no one saw coming? Not even close. People saw them coming, but are just disappointed.

DBN favorites does not always been un-cuttable.

Didn’t Chris pick at least Veikune to be cut?

Yes.

Haven’t lots of people been picking Veikune to be cut?

I never liked Francies, but I am sure only you get credit for thinking that.

This can’t possibly be true. You must have agreed with the rest of the hive mind.

Define “usually”.

I was going to bring up how you always effectively prove him wrong but I figured it was universally understood.

I know we all hate the squeelers, but why hasn’t there been a fanshot about Dixon being named the starter?

Because we all know how it will end.

Not sure what you mean. I’m just saying we posted one for the Ravens signing Housh (which I don’t really think is a big deal) and Ben being out for 4 games.

I mean we all know it will end badly for Dixon, and it’s not surprising. He’s the most logical out of him and Batch personally.

Dixon hasn’t looked bad. This could actually be good for pittsburgh depending on how well he plays. If he plays well, he’s great trade bait, because let’s be honest, Ben’s going nowhere.

That’s not true.

I really think the Rooney’s don’t like him.

I mean, Santonio through a shot glass and was traded. They aren’t doing anything with Ben right now to save face for the organization.

I think I’ll have to disagree here, but because neither of us have a source inside the Rooneys’ office, let’s agree to disagree on this one.

Could’ve sworn I saw something on this but the Rooney’s are big on class, this I know.

I don’t know why Ward slides though.

This is the people that run the Steelers you are talking about right? Class seems low on the priority list.

No, if there’s one thing about the Rooney’s it’s that class and character are supposed to be their key core values. I’ll never like Pittsburgh, but I can at least respect how they try to run their club.

You forgot to finish the sentence. Here, I’ll do it for you:

“No, if there’s one thing about the Rooney’s it’s that class and character are supposed to be their key core values” as long as it does not stop them from winning games.

James Harrison beats his girlfriend, nothing done. Third string WR does same thing, cut.

The reason they traded Holmes is becasue he was gone after this year and is missing a quarter of the season. #7 still has years left and can still win games for them so they keep him.

They are the most superficially “classy” club out there. They want to win just like everyone else and they make “tough stands” when it won’t hurt them to save face.

fivekmd - September 8, 2010 reply

right. people can call the Rooney family classy all they want, but the truth is they’re hypocrites. If you’re expendable anyway, sure, they’ll cut you. are you a pro bowler? well you can do whatever the hell you want.

Don’t forget the guy from the steel curtain that shot at the police helicopter on the Ohio turnpike.

Did this actually happen?

Ernie Holmes

I might need to photograph that site.

+1

I respect the Rooney’s.

They tried to fight against Modell on the move.

Well yeah, it was in their interest, if the Rooneys sold the team and it was to be moved, and I were Randy Lerner, I would fight it tooth and nail because they are our biggest rival.

Perhaps, but the Rooneys’ opposition to Modell’s move struck me as really just about a respect for the history of the league and a feeling that sometimes you just don’t put money over everything. They are old-school owners. I always loved the older Rooney for being against the move and even voting against it after a deal had been worked out.

Feel free to put one up.

Haha I don’t care that much. Just thought it was odd nobody else did.

Personally, I like Dixon.

I was hoping they were going to go with Leftwich.

Agreed on both accounts. It’s too bad he doesn’t play for someone else, but by virtue of playing for pittsburgh I hope he gets his head knocked off.

Interesting to note that every draft pick we got in exchange for trading down in the first round of 2009 is now gonzo. After one year, none of the three picks we got are left.

We got Mack though.

Mack is worth all those. Who are they?

Kune and who else?

Wrong. The pick we got from the Eagles was used to get James Davis, who is still on the 53.

Michael Jay - September 8, 2010 reply

I thought we took Don Carey & Coye Francies with the two 6th rounders we got, but if you say we got Davis, I believe it.

Francies was a 5th I believe.

Money savings aside (which were an important factor, I know), that’s a pretty damning assessment of the trade.

Mack alone, though I love him, certainly isn’t worth it.

I can’t quite remember, but were we linked with taking had we not moved down? Moving down saved us money, got us Mack, and got us Picks.

Also if I’m reading right, we received Elam, and eventually got Davis. Obviously missing on Veikune and Francies sucks, but I don’t think the only thing we got out of that process was Mack.

I would hope to see the FO continue to make attempts to get multiple quality guys instead of throwing a dart at a potential superstar guy we don’t have full confidence in. Obviously i’m in the camp that doesn’t believe we are anywhere close to being a team that can consider itself one draft pick away from being a championship team at the moment.

Right. We got players and picks and saved money. not only is the statement that “all the picks we got for trading down are gone” not true, it is misleading. Even if it were true, it would ignore the fact that there were other pieces of that deal.

Ryan Kelsey - September 8, 2010 reply

And that the reason we were in money saving mode was because we were in ‘cap hell’ due, in part, to Corey Williams contract.

Yea Mangini referred to himself as a cleaning house guy in the ESPN Magazine article. A guy who comes in and cleans up the cap and removes the bad character guys.

He says he doesn’t want to be known as that guy who you hire to do just that, then you fire after 3 years.

Yea, I took it as that he doesn’t want to be only known as that, but that he is in fact good at it.

Oh yeah absolutely.

rufio - September 10, 2010 reply

whoops who were we linked with taking

I can’t quite remember, but were we linked with taking had we not moved down?

Most discussion was centered around Raji, Crabtree, Orakpo and Curry.

It was basically Curry or die and if he was gone Crabtree or Mangini’s head.

Hindsight is 20/20. Good job Mangini.

I agree hindsight is 20/20, but i was thinking this conversation started with a judgement after the fact, so judging in hindsight was what was expected.

Although I remember it being near unanimous that DBN wanted Mack in the 2nd round hoping he would fall that far. In hindsight Mack would not have made it to round 2 and it was good we were able to get him.

I was on the Mack train from day 1.

SpecialBrownie - September 9, 2010 reply

Same here.

golanbatrac - September 9, 2010 reply

Chugga chugga chugga chugga.

Bingo.

Thank God the Steelers, who were rumored to have loved Mack, didn’t pick him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NFL_Draft#PhiladelphiaTradeUp

Francies was a 5. Carey was picked with the 6 we already had going into that draft.

Oh and the 2 we got from the Bucs for K2 (Robiskie) is still on the roster too.

Just saying.

Michael Jay - September 8, 2010 reply

Curse my lack of reply ability. My apologies.

Michael Jay - September 8, 2010 reply

Oh, wikipedia…

We used the 2nd rounder we got for K2 on Massaquoi, and the 5th we got was one of the 5ths traded to Philidelphia for the right to draft Hardesty. Philly used that 5th on Ricky Sapp, and traded the third we sent them to Green Bay for a 3rd (Daniel Te’oNeisheim) and a 4th (Mike Kafka).

The other fifth we traded to Philly as part of the Hardesty deal was traded to San Diego for a 5th (Riley Cooper) and a 2011 5th. San Diego used the pick we traded to Philly and Philly traded to them on Cam Thomas.

We aquired this fifth round pick (which we traded to Philly and which was subsequently traded to San Diego) from Detroit for Corey Williams and a 7th round pick (which Detroit traded to Minnesota along with a 2nd and a 4th round pick for Minnesota’s 1st and 4th round picks). Detroit took Jahvid Best with the 1st rounder and Jason Fox with the fourth rounder. Minnesota got Chris Cook with Detroit’s second, Everson Griffen with the fourth rounder and Mickey Schuler Jr. with our 7th rounder.

Detroit aquired the fifth round pick (which they traded to us and which we traded to Philly and which Philly traded to San Diego) from Denver. Denver traded the pick along with a 2009 7th rounder to Detroit for Detroit’s 2009 6th rounder. Denver used the sixth rounder on Tom Brandstater and Detroit used the 7th rounder on Zack Follett.

Now, the 2nd rounder we aquired from Philly that we used to select Hardesty wasn’t Philly’s pick to begin with. Philly aquired the pick in a trade with Dallas. Dallas got Philly’s second round pick (Sean Lee) and Philly got the 2nd they traded to us and that we used on Hardesty and a 4th rounder (Clay Harbor) in return.

And that leaves Corey Williams. If you Remember, we traded Williams to Detroit along with a 7th rounder for one of the 5th rounders we traded to Philly for the right to draft Hardesty (and which was subsequently traded to San Diego). Corey Williams was acquired by the Browns (from Green Bay) in 2008 for our 2nd rounder. The Packers took Brian Brohm with that pick.

The Packers acquired Williams in the 6th round of the 2004 draft. The pick Green Bay used to select Williams was obtained in a trade with San Francisco. The Packers got the right to draft Williams, and the Niners got a 6th rounder (Andy Lee) and a 7th rounder (Christian Ferrarra).

The 6th round pick Green Bay traded to San Francisco was obtained in a trade with Dallas. Green Bay got the 6th round pick, and Dallas got Terry Glenn. How did Green Bay get Terry Glenn? In a trade, of course. The Patriots traded Glenn to the Packers for a 2002 fourth round pick (Jarvis Green) and a 2003 fourth round pick.

That 2003 fourth round pick (#120) was traded along with the Patriot’s 2nd round pick (#50) for Carolina’s 2nd round pick (#45). The Patriots use the 45th pick on Bethel Johnson. Carolina uses the 50th pick on Bruce Nelson and traded the 4th rounder (#120) to Denver along with another 4th rounder (#100) and a 7th rounder (#227) for Denver’s third round pick (#82). Carolina takes Ricky Manning Jr. with the 82nd pick. Denver takes Quentin Griffin with the 100th pick, Clint Mitchell with the 227th pick and trades pick 120 back to New England (who had earlier traded the pick, which they acquired in the trade sending Terry Glenn to the Packers, to Carolina who then traded it to Denver). Denver gets a 4th rounder (#128, Bryant McNeal) and a 5th rounder (#157, Ben Claxton) from the Patriots. The Patriots get Asante Samuel with pick 120.

Either I’m just that hung over or my head is really spinning right now.

Summary: The Patriots and Eagles are good at manipulating the draft; The Browns and Lions, not so much.

Thank you for the summary, I got lost halfway through that clusterf*ck of trades.

RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 8, 2010 reply

You made it further than me. I’d love to see this as a flowchart, though!

Read all of it. Doesn’t mean I understood all of it. Just saw a lot of Pats and Eagles, as your summary says. Hopefully Heckert brought this sort of thinking with him.

Just a question that I don’t know where else to post, I’ve got Zach Miller and KWII at TE in one of my fantasy leagues. I’m not sure who to start. Suggestions?

Probably better for a fantasy fan post or something.

Go Miller. He’s a great young TE who I think would be an elite player if he had a better QB. He does this year in Cambell, and we all know how he liked Chris Cooley.

I agree. There is a marginal difference in their production last year: 80 yards and 2 TDs, which comes out to 20 fantasy points or barely over 1 a week. 1 point a week is nothing really. in this situation, I would take the high upside guy, especially since I think he has much more potential to improve on his numbers. Even if freeman does improve, the difference won’t be as major as Jamarcus to Campbell

If K2 gets matched-up man to man with our LB’s, he will kill us.

Yeah, I have a feeling that David Bowens is not going to be able to shut down K2 or that K2 is going to be a prisoner on “Barton Island.”

REC for ‘Barton Island’.

Seconded. Legit LoL from me.

Mangenius said today in his press conference that TJ Ward will be primarily responsible for K2.

This is awesome.

RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 8, 2010 reply

Watch out for flying kneecaps!

Why the hell would he say that!?

I don’t mind that Mangini has gotten all nice, but divulging this sort of thing I do not like. Unless he is going to occasionally lie, of course.

I do like putting Ward on K2 in the context of our defense.

Forgive the football ignorance, but could we put Haden or another corner on him when he have 3 CB’s in?

Why not? It isn’t like Kellen is going to block anyone.

He didn’t say that. I just listened to the press conference and someone asked him whether TJ Ward would be covering K2 and Mangini answered (paraphrase)that who covered K2 would depend on combinations and matchups. He went on to add that it doesn’t get any easier, that there’s a lot of good pass catchers in the league and Ward has to be able to cover them.

Today’s press conference is worth a look for a couple of reasons: 1. happy go lucky Mangini disappeared with the first Veikune question and never came back. He looked and sounded like 2009 Mangini for the remainder of the press conference. 2. The look he gave Grossi when Grossi brought up how our defense got torched by Antonio Gates last year.

Yea sorry if the Ward thing was erroneous, I was going off either Grossi or MKC Twitter.

My God, I just went back and looked at Gates line against us.

8 catches for 167 yards? Yamma hamma.

That’s the Mangini I know and love.

K2 if you put this week’s fantasy W above your Browns fandom, Miller if you don’t. I think K2 looks very good against us, good enough that fans get upset that we traded him.

Thanks guys. I think I’m going to put my fandom first, especially seeing as bross said, their production was quite similar last year, and Oakland has to be better with Russell gone and Campbell at the helm. Not sure he’ll have much time to get rid of the ball, though.

your welcome for helping you out. I have always been high on miller, but I was surprised at how similar they were fantasy-wise.