Larry French - Getty Images
over 1 year ago: BALTIMORE - SEPTEMBER 26: Anquan Boldin #81 of the Baltimore Ravens scores a touchdown against the Cleveland Browns at M&T Bank Stadium on September 26 2010 in Baltimore Maryland. The Ravens lead the Browns at the half 14-10. (Photo by Larry French/Getty Images)
The Cleveland Browns lost 24-17 to the Baltimore Ravens, dropping their record to 0-3 on the season. Just like a case could be made that Cleveland could have won their first two games, the Browns were by no means manhandled by the Ravens in Week 3. They once again held a lead in the fourth quarter, but this time it was the defense that let them down.
Strike that. It wasn't the entire defense, but rather one player in particular: cornerback Eric Wright.
As good as Wright has been, he looked beyond bad against Anquan Boldin. Boldin had 8 catches for 142 yards and 3 touchdowns, all against Wright. While Flacco deserves credit for recognizing the match-up consistently, anyone could have thrown those touchdown passes to the wide open Boldin. Wright was always behind, out of position, turned around, etc.
Where as the Ravens were easily able to get their yardage courtesy of Wright, the Browns had to work for theirs, and they worked hard. Quite simply, Peyton Hillis was incredible. He did what few running backs can do against the Ravens, rushing the ball 22 times for 144 yards and 1 touchdown. He also caught 7 passes for 36 yards. Running backs just don't do that against Baltimore.
QB Seneca Wallace didn't play a Pro Bowl type of game, but he did very well given the circumstances. The only complaint I have, and this goes along with the playcalling a little bit, was the deep ball attempt to Joshua Cribbs down the sideline on 3rd-and-2 on the Browns' final drive of the game. With the success Hillis has been having, why not pound it given the pressure defense being shown?
This loss feels like the most painful of the three, because the offense finally found their groove but Wright's lack of coverage all game long is something you never expect to see at this level.
0 recs | 930 comments
He can’t be victimized if he doesn’t even try.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Something was amist in the secondary. I’m sure it all doesn’t fall on Wright
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Wrong.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
this seems like it could be an in-game injury? seems like a possible explanation… or someone noticed SOMETHING about Wright (on film?) if he was getting victimized by several recievers.
or he’s just a moron.
i seriously hope we fix this.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
But yet no one gives credit to Boldin for his play.The man is one of the top 3 WR in the NFL and has made alot of CB look stupid….
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Anquan Boldin is not one of the top three receivers in the league. Not even close.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Who is better other then Moss and Fitz? To try and water down what his numbers are is crazy the man is one of the top 3 by far
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
C. Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Roddy White, Reggie Wayne, Desean Jackson, etc.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Wayne is no longer in the top 5, Johnson dont even have the numbers,White is top 5 Wayne top 10
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Boldin is one of the best in Yards after catch.
after that, it gets debatable.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
Numbers aren’t the only thing that make a reciever. He was the #2 receiver forever (so he was covered by the #2 CB) and played in an offense the past couple years that NEVER ran the ball.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
The man can catch,run and get off the line and makes plays as well as anyone.But hey everyone has there own list of top’s so just have to agree to disagree here.Just to not give Boldin any type of credit for eating up the D is insane is all i am saying.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
The fact that he’s been pretty quiet until destroying Eric Wright makes me question his ability as a #1. MoMass looked great as the #2 last year as well. Where has he been?
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
MoMass was are #1 last year and this year.He should be a #2 but by default he is a #1 right now
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Up until Braylon was traded, he was #2. After being moved to #1, he’s been nowhere near as productive. You’re right, he should be a #2.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
I think you’re misremembering. He only had one game prior to the Edwards trade with more than 1 reception.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Cincinnati?
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Yea, just looked it up. That’s the only game that seems to stick in my mind, and it’s probably part of the reason Mangini actually went ahead and traded Braylon.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
I can’t remember who the opponent was, but the game just before the trade was his best as a pro.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
The raven offense played like crap up until playing the browns. Thats where he was
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
I don’t understand this argument.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
What he is saying is that our defense sucks. Surprised?
rufio - September 27, 2010
That’s what he’s saying but the numbers don’t lie. The D, overall, played really well. The Ravens, as a team, only rushed for 109 yds. The Browns’ run D has been quite good this year. Wright gave up 142 yds to Boldin, which means that the rest of the team only allowed 120 yds passing! That’s good defense!
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
His rookie season he was the #1, and put up over 1000 yards
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Playing along side Fitz!
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Fitz didn’t get there until his second year.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Dammit. I stand corrected.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
In any case, this argument wasn’t that Boldin wasn’t a good receiver. It’s that he’s not top 3, and he would not have looked as good had he been matched up against somebody else.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
So the fact that he has averaged around 1200 yards a season despite only played an average of 13 games a season means he’s only good against Wright, who everyone loved 4 hours ago?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
The argument is that Fitz always took the double team and let Boldin one on one with a #2 or worse CB. Now that he’s a #1 taking the best of the best the team has, he isn’t producing. And it shows.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
This.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
We will see at the end of the year 3 games does not make a season.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
…No. He’s been in the league enough to see what kind of receiver he is. This statement has completely ruined your argument.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
so with other top WR not have great games after the first 3 means they are not legit #1 from your stand point?
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Uh what? Not what I said at all.
I said he’s been IN THE LEAGUE long enough that we know what he is. The fact is, is that the other #1’s have always been #1’s they weren’t traded and thrown into like Boldin and it shows.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
He was a #1 in his first year.Az had 2 great WR both at some point in athe season was doubled up.Both produced.
As it stood going into this game before he blew up on us he had better numbers then Fitz so maybe Fitz is not as good as Boldin and is not a true #1 then right?
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Jesus Christ you don’t listen.
Boldn’s career<<< Fitz’s.
Fitz’s has proven himself as a legit #1, Boldin has not and has not shown it as of yet.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Boldin has proven to be a #1 you dont listen he was a #1 his rookie year.That was his best year and the year after he came back from the injured leg had another 100 rec year how is that not a #1.Teams did not double up on Fitz every play they had to try and keep both on lock down.To say he has never been or never will be a #1 is a reach because he has been a #1
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
He was a #1 in a limited time and was overshadowed by a much better #1 if your argument is true. If I was a DC, I’d much rather worry about Fitz, which is what happened. But think what you want, I don’t really give a shit. You’re way too stubborn with too much evidence from numerous people stacked against you.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
lol what’s the evidence!! You were the person who said he’s not producing, and now you’re trying to throw out fallacies now that you know he’s not only doing better than Fitz, but he’s on pace to 1200 which is the direct opposite of the crap you’re typing. You have yet to contribute any evidence or in fact anything relevent.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
You can’t argue using fitz’s numbers this year. That’s not fair. He has DA throwing to him
The naome40 - September 27, 2010 via mobile
by this logic, he was at his best when no one knew about him…so he was at his best as a rookie??? that actually enhances SBs argument.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Umm he put up another 100 rec year in his 3rd year when everyone was screaming AZ has two #1 WR who do you cover and double up.
Eather way both of these Men are great and both of these men have been and will be #1 WR
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
then again, back then the NFC west was the Big 12 of the NFL…lots of passing but no one could stop the pass.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
oh, and being a #1 does not always mean you get double teamed. the difference between a #1 and a #2 is the difference between Nnamdi and Stanford Routt. you don’t have to have your #1 double teamed to open up things for a good #2. very few teams, if any, can cover an excellent #2 and #1 receivers. Against #1 Corners, boldin has struggled at times this year, because he is facing easier competition across from him.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
RE:
being a #1, which Bolding SHOULD not be, doesn’t make him a top 3 WR in the league. He definately is NOT top 3, probably not even top 5, arguably not top 10
TruWhoDey - September 27, 2010
dude.
Joe Flacco>>>>>>>>>>DA
Hell, Seneca>>DA
and these better numbers are 2 more receptions and about 20 more yards…but one less TD. those are barely better stats and although Flacco has struggled, DA cannot find Fitz…but sometimes he gets lucky.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
The argument is stupid.
And once again, he was the #1 reciever his rookie year, and it was the best year of his career. He’s only played 2 games so far this year (not including today), and he was on course for 1200 at that current pace, despite having a sucky offense.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
That’s it? The argument is stupid?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Answer the question. Is being on pace for 1200 yards “not producing”?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
I never said wasn’t.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
it wasn’t*
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Better question would have been is that not #1 WR numbers?
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
say that again?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
I read your argument wrong in the first place, I thought you were arguing his rookie season.
Let me see his first two game stats before I answer then. I don’t trust you as far as I can throw you.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
He’s averaging 72.4 yards a game. That’s more than Larry Fitz. Whats your next excuse?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Who the hell says I’m making excuses? I’d much rather have Fitz over Boldin anyday of the week. The fact is, is that Fitz is much more proven with a much worse QB.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
And I bet that 72.4 adds today in which is a joke.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
nope that 72 was with 2 games add in today and it is bigger see how Fitz has not rec as of now in his game
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Refer to the above reply on Fitz.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Feel sorry for Fitz right now he has Anderson tossing to him :(
But I like Fitz and Boldin think they are both #1 WR and Boldin’s numbers will show that at the end of the year
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
DA is throwing 30 yards per game more than Flacco. He also have a 20 point higher QB rating. Next excuse?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
because those 2 stats are the be all end alls about throwing the ball.
lets just forget that this is 2 games into the season and base all of our evidence on a small sample size rather than what these guys have shown over a longer period of time.
lets just ignore the strength of the teams that they faced.
If both QBs had faced similar opponents, this would be a different story but you can’t get objective analysis from these opponents.
DA’s 2 opponents last year were ranked in the bottom 6 in adjusted passing D (by FO) and were both ranked in the bottom 10 in opponent passer rating.
Flacco’s opponents last year were top 10 in adjusted passing D and both top 7 in opponent QB rating (with the jets ranking #1 in both).
bross09 - September 26, 2010
you are going to throw out pure statistics without factoring in other pieces on offense?
by this same logic, Wes welker is a far superior receiver to both Fitz and Boldin. Now I like welker and he is good, but stats don’t mean everything. if you have a HOF WR next to you and a HOF QB throwing you the ball, you are in a good situation.
If you have a competent QB throwing to you (flacco) an 1000 yard receiver to take some pressure off, and an elite RB, you will have better and more opportunities than a guy with a terrible QB, average RB play, and an average #2 (at best).
that is a comparison between Boldin’s situation and Fitzgerald’s situation. Looking at the way boldin played the first 2 games and the way DA has played, if you switched their situations, there would be a significant swing in statistics.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
EVERYBODY STOP THIS NONSENSE.
1) Anquan Boldin is a great receiver and certainly capable of being a #1 receiver.
2) He’s not top 3, not because there’s anything wrong with him, but because there are several better receivers in the NFL.
3) Eric Wright did a terrible job covering him today.
Now stop debating stupid semantics.
Chemo - September 26, 2010
thank you.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
This.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
/agree
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
should be record recs here
dgcambridge - September 27, 2010
You call that not producing?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
I like how you’re arguing with yourself
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Boldin
Was a top three today. How’s that!
Ravens One - September 27, 2010
by the same logic, Peyton Hillis is a top 3 running back…and I am inclined to give him MORE credit because he faced a defense that was good last year, whereas the browns pass D last year SUCKED
bross09 - September 27, 2010
not to mention pulled in 100+ rec.Fits became the #1 after Boldin got hurt and never looked back.When Boldin came back the next year he had 100+ rec again.Az had 2 #1 WR like Min did with Moss/Carter
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
And his stats from nearly a decade ago have what to do with whether he’s a top 3 receiver now?
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Oh I am sorry forgot stats has nothing with the reason you are a top WR what was I thinking?
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
stats do not tell the whole story, especially not in football.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
CJ got doubled all the time and was still a very productive WR. wayne is DEFINITELY still sniffing at the top 5 at least even if you don’t think he is top 5. He is certainly better than Boldin.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Andre Johnson, Greg Jennings
The naome40 - September 27, 2010 via mobile
Andre Johnson – but your point is a good one – he is a Pro Bowl Caliber player.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
I actually thought about Andre after posting, but figured it was pointless to keep going.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
The CBS announcers talked early in the game how Harbaugh thought Wright was weak and they game planned to take advantage of him. They certainly executed.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
Sigh.. This is going to happen every week Wright is in now.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Yep. He’s been exposed. Had we had better talent around him he would have been exposed years ago.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Agreed. What’s amazing is that he was better than the dancing hairdresser.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
What would they notice? That he sucks? So they should throw it to whoever he’s covering?
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
That he doesn’t care. The only time you see any passion out of him is when he’s blaming someone else for his ineptitude or when he’s doing his stupid Deion dance.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
This is why I was always miffed by Wright celebrating routine plays. I never thought he was that great and he celebrates like he’s Deion.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
This is also why I was dead set against getting Dez Bryant in the draft this year. Any player who works out with Deion and attends his camps is poison to a team.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I hate to say Twitter can be revealing at all, but having followed Wright on Twitter for about a year or so now, I question his desire to be good for the Browns.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
Wright was abused by Boldin and beat by Mason and Housh. He couldn’t cover anyone. Yeah, it falls on him.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
but the question is Why?
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
Because Eric Wright is not as good as he thinks he is?
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
I do not buy into that at all.The man was good all of last year one bad game does not make him a bad player.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Eric Wright is pretty good. But he thinks he is a dominant CB in the mold of Revis and Nnamdi and he’s not.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
he has Braylon-itis?
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
that made me laugh
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
that was the intent. ::shrugs:::
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
mission accomplished my man. I just thought I’d type the above instead of LOL, OMG like a teenage girl.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
i noticed and appreciated that.
MUCH more astute. (sp?)
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
Also someone else astutely pointed out that offenses had Brandon McDonald to pick on last year.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
Somebody said it best in the game thread. He was good when it was McDonald getting taken advantage of. Our secondary sucked in general last year, and Wright was the best of a terrible situation.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
He was not good all last year. We had Furrey and Poteat and MacDonald last year. Wright is better than those three and teams were too busy picking up easy first downs on them to expose Wright for the lazy bum that he is.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I’d almost forgotten about Furrey and Poteat.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
They may as well have not been there anyway.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
God, I wish I could forget about Hank Poteat.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Try this: Terry Cousin
rufio - September 27, 2010
rec
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
god…awful memories.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Jesus wept. Please stop.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
This is damage control. I can almost guarantee I can search your history and find you complimenting Wright in some way or another
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Golan wanted to trade Wright.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Hell no. Golan’s always hated him.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Not always. I’ve never been a fan, but didn’t start hating him until this past summer.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
The shoe shit and Deion dance?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
The trollish behavior on Twitter. He made it clear that he has zero respect for the team, zero respect for the city and zero respect for the fans.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Like when he bitched Cleveland out over LeBron?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Yeah, those other guys just made him look better than he was. The funny thing is that a lot of people questioned picking up Haden since we had Brown and Wright. I get the feeling that after this game, if he doesn’t make adjustments, Haden may be starting sooner than expected.
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
he was decent last year. he was not good, but he was not that bad. he was passable and has been passable the last couple games. Brown and haden (and even ward) were making more plays in the secondary than him the first couple games.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
hell, before this game Cleveland fans thought Wright was one of the better CB’s in the league. So now all of a sudden he needs to be cut?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
Why are you replying to me about ‘cuts’? I have never said that.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
This is what I am saying.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
do you define ‘cleveland fans’ as the idiots on cleveland.com or the regulars and even non-regulars here? i think people here liked him, but from what i remember, it wasn’t clear to everyone that he was our #1 CB in terms of ability.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Don’t remember who, but several folks were projecting Wright and Haden as starters by the end of the season.
JustBob - September 26, 2010
I also saw haden and brown, because people saw brown as a reliable #2 and haden as a guy who could beat out both by the end of the year. there was not this consensus that wright was the best CB on our team…far from it.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
This is true.
I know I did.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Rocland, I normally wouldn’t troll through someone’s post history but since you are acting like you are never wrong and you knew all along that Wright was bad, I did some searching. These are quotes from you in the past:
Link
Link
Look, I think it is stupid to search post histories to call someone out, but since you are the one saying we should be doing that for other users, you need to keep your mouth shut. What you do is considered trolling, and it’s really aggravating.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
What the f*&k are you talking about!?
I’ve never implied in this entire thread that I “always knew Wright was bad”.
Reread this thread before you get your panties in a bunch and make yourself look stupid.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
I find your questioning of golan’s comment history odd, but am not engaging in this.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
Not to go against you or anything but he never said that wright was bad.
He was saying everyone loved him then jumped ship all of a sudden.
Now, the whole thing about everyone gushing over him…
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Fair enough, I retract my comment and apologize.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
No worries. Please make sure you have your **** together before loudly calling me out like that. Thanks!
The Licensed Pessimist - September 27, 2010
Its pretty obvious what Dorn was responding too. I’m pretty sure he has his *&^% s together. His statement was not really about whether you think Wright is good or not. Seemed more about you looking at users comment history.
That said, I am guilty of thinking Wright was pretty good, however I am questioning that now.
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
Partially this, but I did misinterpret what he was saying.
I do agree that I have thought Wright is a very good CB, maybe top 10-15 in the league. He played horribly yesterday, hopefully it was a one time thing.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
Don’t question his years of playing pretty well after one bad game. He is probably an average #1 CB, a very good #2.
rufio - September 27, 2010
This. and that is pretty much where I see him.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Yep, I’m just hoping he had a bad day at the office. We’ll have to see if the Bengals target him now next week and how he responds.
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
If the DC seen this why was there no Double teaming or over the top help.If you see this going on and make no change in game Strat thin it does not all fall on one man
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Where’s the help going to come from when the D has to account for 4 receivers?
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
so 4 WR means that there is no help to be given sounds like bad D calling to me.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
The D made adjustments. As I said above Wright got moved around to different receivers and was still taken advantage of.
Also, TJ Ward was responsible for Boldin and had a nice break up.
IPart of the problem was the inability to pressure Flacco but I’m not sure what else they could have done in coverage. I’m not saying there’s nothing, I just don’t know enough to suggest anything.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
There in lies the issue.No pass rush gives a QB time to pick the CB’s apart.Last year we had a better pass rush then we do now.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Yeah, Roth’s bull rushing wasn’t effective today and Benard’s presence was sorely missed.
And where was Shaun Rogers?
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
he was out… injury of some sort… was in the report Fri/Sat.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
Missed that. Thanks. A healthy big baby would go a long way to helping our D.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
Roth wasn’t terrible, but wasn’t that effective. I did see a few blatant holds against Baltimore that weren’t called. I am not complaining about playcalling, but out of the 3 plays I saw where the guy had a shot at the QB but looked to be held from my eyes, 2 were on roth and one was on Bowens.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
I guarantee Rob did not blitz 7 players on every pass play against 4 wide. There was help for someone coming from somewhere.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I missed the game and just watched replays on NFL.com. The first TD to Boldin looked like Wright bit on play action. The other two, the Browns brought eight men and the Ravens sent 3 receivers on streak routes. Wright was on an island on a deep route. He didn’t have much of a chance on either.
rebuilding year - September 27, 2010
Right, but having no help on 2/3 plays when the ravens scored TDs is not the same as having no help every time they went with 4 vertical threats.
rufio - September 27, 2010
Actually, on the third touchdown Ryan sent 8 to the QB and Wright was on an island – and while he was busy biting on something back at the LoS, Boldin ran past him. He didn’t have help on that play because he was just supposed to cover long enough for the blitz to get there.
I’ve never played corner, but I would think that if you know that an all out blitz has been called then you would be focusing on staying with the WR you are covering until the whistle blows or you see something that shows that the ball has already moved beyond the LoS.
JustBob - September 27, 2010
the thing he was biting on was a fake outside and then boldin went inside I believe.
I agree with you. I never played corner either but with an 8 man blitz, I would pretty much play QB contain and worst case scenario, let him go to the sideline and get the reception because that is better than giving up the imminent TD since I have no help over the top.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Maybe it was just the camera angle, but it looked like he was watching the LoS, not Boldin.
JustBob - September 27, 2010
I dunno. If that was the case, that was probably a mistake or misread by him. when you know the play is n all out blitz, why would you pay attention to the line instead of staying in front of your WR?
bross09 - September 27, 2010
he did have help on some plays, like the nice play TJ ward had. However, the Offense has 11 guys just like you and you cannot always sacrifice 2 guys to cover 1 WR.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Everyone else covered just fine. It was Wright’s fault.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
a couple times it looked like he should have had help over the top, like on the first TD. however, the help isn’t much help if you bite on every single fake and let them get WIDE open.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Garrett Hartley just missed a chip-shot FG in overtime for the Saints. Wow.
DisplacedBuckeye - September 26, 2010
Prediction: he gets fired at some point.
rufio - September 27, 2010
Good point on the 3rd and 2 Chris – feel the criticism of that call is much more warranted than the criticism of punting and not going for it on 4th down.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
they’re part of the same package.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
punting on fourth down wasn’t a bad call. there were still about 3.5 to 4 minutes left, if the defense forces a three and out we get the ball back, in decent field position. If we go for it on fourth down and don’t get it, we could still force a three and out, but they would kick a field goal and win anyway.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
St Louis put up 14 already. holy cow.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
Should have been more. Bradford just threw an INT after a blocked punt.
DisplacedBuckeye - September 26, 2010
So the Browns didn’t have a sack this game. There is no way this team could be successful without getting to the QB.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 26, 2010
We had good pressure though.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
not really, re-read parts of the game thread and you’ll see.
BuenosAires_Dawg - September 26, 2010
Why would I have to re read the thread?? I watched the damn game.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Nice.
Villeslgr - September 27, 2010
Unfortunately none of the pressure resulted in Flacco being hurried or making bad decisions. When we blitzed, he picked it up and unloaded (one exception) and when we didn’t he had time to make his reads and throw.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
When? I can count on one hand the amount of times we rushed Flacco, and that is being generous.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
I can’t specifically point them out, I just thought we did damn.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I agree. We did not get very much pressure on Flacco at all, which is why we needed to blitz so often and leave Wright in single coverage on Boldin. This team needs more pass rushers.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
I agree. we have pass rushers and enough when they are healthy, but one was inactive and one missed practice this week…plus Rogers was also inactive. we definitely need more than 3 guys though.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
The question remains….
what do we do about this garbage?
sounds like: 1. Develop a pass rush.
discoinferno083 - September 26, 2010
How do we get pressure without bringing the house? That rarely seems to work for us.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
That my friend takes talent.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
Roth was nicked up, Rogers was out (I believe) and Marcus Benard was out. Those are maybe your 3 best guys at getting to the QB.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Yea, this was the bigger problem.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
than Wright? I’m not sure. even if those guys are in, we still probably lose that game because of Wright.
were you talking bigger compared to calling a pass rush? then I agree.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Was Elam in the game? – I never see him make a play.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
I saw him try to make a play several times…i never saw him make a play however.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
All i gotta say is Peyton Hillis is a beast.
mookie_20 - September 26, 2010
We totally got the better part of that trade.
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
I´m more optimistic than most. The fact is that the Browns will never be good until we get several good drafts in a row. The kind of draft that brings more than 1 quality starter per year. I think it is possible that Heckert´s first draft is a solid draft. Haden and Ward already look like starters, Lavao may help, and then we have Hardesty and Colt in their red shirt years.
I hope Mangini is kept next year, although chances are not good. I would like him to stay because I think if he gets the young talent, he is pretty good at developing the talent. Mack, Haden, Ward, Mack, Rubin, and Benard have all developed quickly under Mangini. I really think the busts (Veikhune, Quinn, McDonald, Wright?, Robo?, Momass?) will fail or not based on their talent. Quinn sucks in Denver, Veikhune has not been picked up after 3 weeks of NFL injuries. While I do believe it is early to call the others “busts” I would wager that they will not bust here and then take off with another team.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
booting Mangini would be such a waste.
tribe71 - September 26, 2010
Agree here see how his 2 drafts have been leaps ahead of what we use to get.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Mangini was not in control of the most recent draft.
rufio - September 27, 2010
Though he had a good deal of input into the selections.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
Says who? I know the company line is that everyone works together, but this draft was obviously The Heckert Show, wasn’t it? (God, let’s hope it was)
kwoog - September 27, 2010
how was this draft obviously the Heckert show? not saying you’re wrong, but I don’t know what evidence you have of that.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
Pretty sure Heckert is largely responsible for the selection of players, but takes input from all sources all the way down to the positional coaches who work some of these guys out. For instance Rob Ryan worked out Kyle Wilson and loved him, which is why we were apparently considering Wilson over Haden (early returns suggest we made the right choice.)
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
This sort of thing was exactly why it was the Heckert/Holmgren show. Mangini had input, but no control.
rufio - September 27, 2010
This.
kwoog - September 27, 2010
actually, it’s looking more and more like mangini’s draft (’09 … heckert ran ’10, as has been pointed out) was a disaster: mack was a very good pick … and then you have momass (suck), robiskie (suck), veikune (super suck), maiava (injuries), james davis (injuries), francies (??). most importantly, obviously, going 1-for-4 in the first 2 rounds.
i, for one, am glad he’s just the coach.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
MoMass doesn’t suck. He’s a number 2 playing #1 wideout.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
He’s a wide receiver with two catches in 3 games. Blaming it on whether he’s a 1 or 2 is just as dumb as arguing whether someone’s a number 2 or 3 starter in a pitching staff. It doesn’t matter. What matters is if they get guys out, or, in this case, catch balls.
kwoog - September 27, 2010
I believe he has 3. But you’re right, that’s unacceptable. He’s been targeted 11 times, unfortunately I haven’t really been able to watch the games so I don’t know if he’s just not catching them or if the QB’s aren’t getting it to him.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
Its the QBs not getting it to him. even if you are not a good #1, you should get more than 11 targets in 3 games. Out of his targets, he has not gotten a good selection of quality passes. Out of the 11, there are 3 I vividly remember that were uncatchable and there was probably at least 1-2 more that were uncatchable or nearly uncatchable.
out of the 11, 6 were in the first game. I think he has been victim to seneca wallace’s tendencies (to throw to the TEs, Cribbs, and the RBs out of the backfield)
bross09 - September 27, 2010
or, alternatively, wallace is a victim of his “number 1” WR sucking.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
but even WRs that have played well when given the chance (like stuckey) aren’t getting thrown to.
and how is he a victim of his number 1 sucking? he isn’t throwing it to his #1 or ANY of his WRs besides cribbs.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
could it be that his #1 receiver isn’t open, b/c he sucks, and therefore wallace isn’t forcing the ball to him?
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
it could be, except that he has been open at times and not thrown to. not to mention that no other receivers that can get open (like stuckey when he is playing in the slot) haven’t gotten targeted. is cribbs really by FAR the best receiver on our team at getting open?
I seriously doubt if the targets reflect our receivers relative effectiveness at getting open (because that would mean that Robiskie is just as good pretty much as Massaquoi at getting open and thats just ridiculous).
Massaquoi was able to get open and make plays last year. all that has changed is the QB and the QB has a history of thowing mostly to TEs, RBs, and Posession WRs (like cribbs). Seneca has been historically inaccurate when throwing to WRs down the field.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Nice to see you back. I happen to think that both the WRs and QBs have not been very good so far.
rufio - September 28, 2010
And to make matters worse, the routes that are called haven’t really been helpful to either party.
rufio - September 28, 2010
glad to be back. it’s been a while.
i actually think wallace has been generally fine aside from the pick 6 he threw. nothing great, but certainly serviceable (which is an upgrade).
the receivers are terrible, and the routes continue to be poorly designed.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
That’s the thing though, I think the WRs are better than you think: I have seen them open several times but Seneca has failed to deliver them the ball where it needed to be. He is a half second slow on the reads.
The plays themselves are fine, but they don’t suit our strengths. We don’t have Brandon Marshall, Colston, or Fitz who will beat people deep and out jump them on a fade. We seem to run a lot of fades/comebacks, which is great if you are the Saints, but not so great when you are us.
rufio - September 28, 2010
Chris made a good point in his game recap, that Wallace only even throw it in Massaquoi’s direction only one time despite him being open on some plays.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Watching the Bears vs. Packers last night really exemplifies this. The level that Aaron Rodgers plays is so far above anything the Browns have had at QB is just unreal. It looks like there is no room and he gets the ball there. His receivers also do a great job of helping him out, running tight routes and holding on to the ball.
Monsters of the Midway - September 28, 2010
The TD throw to Jennings was a perfect example of this.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
That was a sick pass. He’s got a cannon for an arm.
StuckInPa - September 28, 2010
he is getting very few targets and of those targets, many are way off target. its hard to catch balls when you aren’t thrown catchable balls.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
and let’s be honest with ourselves … this is a high second round pick who’s upside, clearly, is to be an average wr. today, he sucks (based on the numbers), and i’m pretty confident he’s not shown anything that would lead us to believe he’ll be anything but average at the position.
for a (high) second round pick, that sucks.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
he was drafted 8th out of all WRs last year. He was 8th in receiving yards, 4th in catches of 20 or more yards, 2nd in yards per catch and 5th in % of catches for a first down (the last 2 are just out of receivers with at least 10 catches last year).
I would say that leads us to believe he has the potential to be something more than average. You also have to consider that he had terrible QB play, some of the worst in the league, and still was able to put up good numbers. Out of the guys with more yards then him, only Britt and Crabtree didn’t have a perennial pro bowl QB throwing to them.
He was a low second round pick. Robiskie was a high second rounder and although he sucks so far, WRs take time to develop (and no draft can be accurately judged they say in less than 3 years)
bross09 - September 27, 2010
From the man who judged the ’09 draft in this thread.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I never said my judging was accurate. plus, it was golan that brought up that so far it looks to be one of the worst drafts in history…
thanks for getting the point I made.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
You made a point? I’m not trying to be flippant here either, I have no idea what your point ever is. Your posts are filled with “I agree, but” and then you go on for two paragraphs on why you don’t agree.
By the time I get done, I have no idea what you were even talking about to begin with.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
way to be a d-bag and not even read the comment…because it didn’t start with ‘i agree, but’. It was a complete disagreement. Golan made the same point and was actually more wordy than me. did you read his?
no reason to be a condescending dick…but I guess when I do make a valid point, I don’t because I am bross, I am always stupid, I am always wrong, and I never make a valid point.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I didn’t say any of that and I did read your posts.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
well…you were criticizing my post for something that wasn’t in the post.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
Oh my gosh, stop playing the martyr bit again. He never said you’re always stupid and always wrong. His criticisms were all valid. You do change arguments so many times in one discussion and bring up so many contradicting points that it’s hard to follow what you’re trying to say. And you don’t do it all the time, but you do it enough that it gets really annoying at times.
Can you please try to listen to other people’s criticisms and suggestions and think about ways you can improve instead of always getting defensive and claiming that you get picked on and pointing out where you think other people do the same thing.
Buckeye Brad - September 28, 2010
a) I had a legitimate point which was the same as golan’s. it was pretty easy to figure out if he decided he actually wanted to pay attention but this comment clearly shows he couldn’t care less what i said. he just assumed my comment had no point and started criticizing it for a lack of point even though it had one.
b) i didn’t say ‘i agree, but’.
Maybe there were criticisms to be made, but none on that comment. putting criticisms somewhere where criticism the criticisms didn’t apply to the comment was what was annoying.
Actually, i do listen to people’s criticisms and I almost never use the ‘I agree, but’ anymore…that is also what is annoying.
how about instead of seeing if from B19Ks perspective, see it from my perspective that I make a valid point that another user makes and gets criticized for the point (with criticism that doesn’t fits). Would that annoy you BB? probably. It would annoy a good portion of the rational population.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
Oh come on. You might not have used the exact words “I agree, but” but his point is still valid. You often say you agree with someone but then you post a long diatribe nitpicking at particulars or arguing about semantics which really don’t matter. That was his point, and I think you know it. So instead of arguing over whether you used those exact words why don’t you try to understand the point that he and I are trying to make. Or, you can continue writing long theses on why you are right and everyone else is wrong while arguing semantics, like you just did above.
Buckeye Brad - September 28, 2010
wait, what was wrong with my comment?
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
I got his point, I just felt it was out of place and not necessary at the time. the way he puts it on a comment that is perfectly fine comes across condescending and snarky. I get the point he is trying to make and i appreciate it, but this would all have been avoided if it was less condescending towards my comment.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
Honestly, the comment in question had nothing to do with the conversation and was really unnecessary besides being snarky.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
I agree. I have no problem with someone e-mailing me in private with a suggestion, or actually give a relevant suggestion to the conversation. This was neither.
I like it how if someone has a problem though with BB or another Mod/Minion, they suggest to go to their e-mail. if they have a problem with me, they just blast it here like this before even thinking about going to e-mail.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
I have never once told anyone to email with a problem instead of posting it here, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. Way to keep making things up though to continue making it seem like you’re getting picked on.
Buckeye Brad - September 29, 2010
I told him to email me if he has an issue.
Pretty much, I wanted to end this.
Bernie19Kosar - September 29, 2010
I thought you told me once or twice to do that. I guess i was mistaken. sorry.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
All I said is that I can’t follow most of your posts because of the constant double speak.
How you get the rest of this from that is beyond me.
If you have anything to discuss with me, my email is at the bottom of every page. Feel free to voice your concerns.
Bernie19Kosar - September 29, 2010
This is what I was doing while reading this porting of thread…
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
*portion, not porting
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
Typing with your head: not as easy as it looks.
golanbatrac - September 30, 2010
Ha!
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
the difficult part is how to stop the bleeding.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Typing with your head: not as easy as it looks.
golanbatrac - September 30, 2010
1. MoMass wasn’t a high second rounder. He was the eighteenth player taken in the second round.
2. Massaquoi has caught 37 balls for 679 yards and 4 TDs from the clusterfuck of Quinn/Anderson/Quinn/Delhomme/Wallace. Percy Harvin (taken in the first round) caught 66 for 834 and 6 TDs (from Favre, in a career year, w/ Sidney Rice lining up opposite him). Jeremy Maclin (taken a full round ahead of MoMass) caught 62 for 826 and 6 TDs (from Donovan McNabb w/ DeSean Jackson holding the defense’s attention).
That’s not a huge statistical drop off from Maclin and Harvin to MoMass, despite the fact that MoMass was lining up against teams’ #1 corners for all but three or four games, and had to deal with the clusterfuck of Quinn/Anderson/Quinn/Anderson. Harvin and Maclin were number two receivers all year, had Sydney Rice and DeSean Jackson lining up at number one, and were catching balls from Brett Favre (in a career year) and Donovan McNabb.
Write him off if you want, but the early returns are good.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
Sorry about the repetition. I intended to edit all of that out of paragraph two.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
Wow, that’s pretty interesting.
emily522 - September 27, 2010
Another interesting fact: MoMass has had exactly one game in his career in which he had both a strong armed QB who can throw over the top (DA, who for all his faults, has a much stronger arm than anyone else we’ve had in the last couple of years) and a number one receiver lined up opposite him (Braylon). That was week four last year, and MoMass led the league in receiving yards that week (against Cincinnati, who won the division and who supposedly have one of the better cornerback tandems in the league).
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
Also, the 2nd round sucked last year.
rufio - September 28, 2010
Wow.
God, we need a competent QB and a true #1 WR.
emily522 - September 28, 2010
QB more important, add the WR when the team is ready to contend.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Forgot to compare the fact that he was going against #1 CBs. If you look at all the WRs though who had a lot of yards, most had elite QBs and none of them had nowhere near as bad of QBs as cleveland.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
1. fair enough. i stand corrected on the “high” characterization.
2. come on. you’re an astute fan … those are meaningfully superior stats that harvin/maclin have put up over momass. i will certainly allow that the routes and qb situation have been pretty awful for momass, but if you’re telling me that he’s in the harvin/maclin class we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
separately, let’s say momass doesn’t suck (which i think he does, but i appreciate that others are more optimistic) … how would you describe his performance to date? i can’t see calling it anything that refutes the larger point, which is that mangini’s ’09 draft, even after only 19 games, is looking more and more like a disaster every week.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
150 yards and two TDs over the course of a season doesn’t strike me as ‘meaningfully superior’. The difference in the number of catches is. But then again, MoMass is averaging 5 more yards per reception than either Maclin or Harvin.
Is MoMass in the same class as Harvin and Maclin? I don’t know. They’re very different receivers, for sure, but the fact that both Harvin and Maclin play in dynamic offenses surrounded by playmakers and MoMass plays for the Browns makes a one-to-one comparison difficult. If MoMass is going to be in the same class as the other two I think he has to find a way to contribute this year (which means playing tough in the short game, since he’s not going to see many catchable balls downfield from our noodle armed quarterbacks).
Promising. Nothing more, nothing less. I think, based on his play last year, that he has a pretty good shot at developing into a quality #2 receiver. A guy who can get downfield, get up in the air, and fight for the ball. I don’t think he has a high enough ceiling to ever be a legit #1, but I also don’t think he was drafted to be a #1.
Any player beyond the fourth round who develops is a bonus, so really we’re looking at the picks from the first four rounds. Mack has been sensational. Massaquoi has shown great promise. Maiava had 30 tackles, 11 assists, forced 2 fumbles and recorded 2.5 sacks in limited action last year. Robiskie hasn’t shown a thing, and Veikune has been cut. I’d say that that’s petty decent when you consider the fact that we came into the draft with, what, four picks, that the draft that year is looking like one of the weakest drafts in recent memory.
The fact of the matter is, two of our top five picks from that draft are wide receivers. Whether or not the 2009 draft was a disaster is going to depend heavily on whether or not they develop. It’s simply too soon to pass final judgement on either player. Especially when you take into account the quartebacks they’ve both had to deal with.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
I agree but am obviously pretty disappointed in Robiskie and Veikune. While there is still a shred of hope for Robo, he was the highest of those 2nd round picks and does not look very good.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
So you suggest we ignore all of last season, and focus solely on number of catches in 3 games this year? Not even yards or TDs factored in?
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
I’m suggesting he’s part of a crappy draft that could have drastically sped up our team’s development.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
I think he is an adequate number 2. Don’t know if we should have expected more from where we got him, but at least in my view he is a starting WR.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
He’s certainly not one yet. Potentially, he has shown signs of becoming one someday. That’s not good enough, for a draft that was setup to be and needed to be a Franchise altering talent-grab.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
it’s his second year in the league, do we really need to outline the “receivers need time” argument? also, you aren’t taking into account the QB situations. again, look at golan’s post. unless you want to tell me those other guys are terrible too or come up with a reason why those aren’t accurate comparisons, you’re just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I can consider the entirety of Golan’s arguments to a point, but not enough to sway me into optimism. At some point, production has to matter. The (lack of) production outweighs the excuses, for me.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I guess my question is why were his first year stats not considered productive?
Roger Dorn - September 29, 2010
They are, to a point. They show he has potential. But that’s it.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
That’s basically my point of view.
Roger Dorn - September 29, 2010
Mine too.
golanbatrac - September 30, 2010
You have to remember that he is showing this potential while playing with QB’s like DA, BQ, JD, and SW. That is pretty good potential.
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
Put another way, there’s no doubt in my mind a solid “number 2” would have put up better numbers with the QBs we’ve had… which is to say, he’s not one yet. I know the development curve, I know he might get there. But even if he does, the draft is not good enough, which is the whole point of all this.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I, for one, largely agree with you. I’m surprised so many other folks on this board are being so accommodating, especially considering how perplexing the two receiver picks at the time were (though I’m not about to review comment history to see who said what then). Seems to me you are just calling a spade a spade: MoMass is not doing a damn thing for us. I haven’t written him off quite yet; the QB play really has been atrocious. But when most of the Day 1 guys from the 2009 Mangini-inspired draft aren’t making valuable contributions to the team, yes, it might mean your draft was garbage.
Western Reserve - September 28, 2010
oh my god, you too? have you read the stats? MoMass has put up numbers comparable to Percy Harvin and Jeremy Maclin. are they busts too?
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I specifically singled out MoMass to say I haven’t yet written him off and cited poor QB play as a possible explanation. On the contrary, he still does have to show us something.
Also, does anyone here really consider Massaquoi to be of the caliber of player of a Percy Harvin, migraines and all, someone who can take a handoff around the edge and offer something a bit more than the typical WR?
Western Reserve - September 28, 2010
you agreed that the Massaquoi pick wasn’t a good one, or you don’t agree with kwoog at all.
If you want to include migraines, yes. I’d much rather have a guy I know won’t just fall down in pain randomly. and be out for a couple weeks here or there. the guy has something wrong with him besides migraines, and it’s scary to me that they haven’t figured it out.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
At the time, I really didn’t care for the receiver picks at all. But that’s water under the bridge now. I’d still like to be pleasantly surprised with them eventually.
On your second point, since at times the migraines really has been debilitating, fair enough.
Western Reserve - September 28, 2010
I wasn’t a fan of drafting both receivers, but both were picked right around where they were projected to go.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I would trade MoMass for Harvin right now no questions asked.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
much like with Pool, I’d really rather not watch someone die on the field. I don’t know if Harvin’s problem is that serious, but people don’t suddenly collapse in pain and become incapable of playing for 2 weeks because of migraines.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
Obviously you’ve never had really debilitating migraines or known someone who did. Not to say there isn’t more going on with Harvin than meets the eye, but not necessarily.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 28, 2010
While migraines are absolutely debilitating, they typically only last 4-72hrs. His seem to come frequently and last for quite some time. Also, you can feel drained afterwards and be sensitive to light and sound. I’m not sure what is going on with him, but something seems amidst.
Kimble_79 - September 28, 2010
It sounds like the team doctors are getting a handle on his migraines.
Either way, I don’t pass on a talent like Harvin even with his migraines and supposed off the field issues.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
Nope, apparently, he’s having them again.
I wouldn’t want Harvin. Injury issues and like NTN said, there something more than meets the eye with Harvin’s health.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
Harvin disagrees.
So do his Doctors.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
Meh, medical crap like that is tricky. Dude already died almost once. Sleep apnea is a far more serious condition than what it sounds. If he doesn’t die on the field, he’ll probably die in his sleep.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
Is it just me or so they have the words “specialist” and “dentist” mixed up?
as someone else said, Sleep apnea is scarier than migraines. Also, right now, we don’t know if that’s what caused the migraines. His doctors never said the two were connected, just Harvin. as far as we know, he’s a guy with migraine issues who just added sleep apnea to the list for good measure. I’ll pass.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
Whether or not you’d trade one for the other is interesting, but irrelevant to the point being discussed.
Personally, I wouldn’t trade for Harvin. That business with the migraines is scary. Now Maclin? I’d make that trade, no doubt.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
No thanks.
rufio - September 30, 2010
No hesitation.
dawgtribe - October 2, 2010
I didn’t Call Massaquoi a bad pick. I called it a bad draft.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I am more comfortable with calling it bad then atrocious which is what I think you originally called it.
Roger Dorn - September 29, 2010
It’s atrocious if Massaquoi fizzles, which is just as likely as him becoming an above average starter at this point.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I will agree with this much as I have stated a number of times that I generally am against drafting WRs until the rest of the team is largely in place.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
This.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
DontCallMeJoey sighting.
As Dorn said, MoMass doesn’t suck. He’s playing out of position (as is Robiskie). The jury is still out on all of these players (except Veikune, of course) from both drafts.
It’s also worth noting that ’09 is starting to look like the worst draft class since at least ’05. The ’10 draft was heralded as one of the deepest in memory with guys like Terrence Cody, Hardesty, Ben Tate, Golden Tate, Vladimir Ducasse and Brandon Spikes falling to the very end of round 2.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
I can’t think of many teams that had ‘good’ drafts in 2009 (by that I mean at minimum 2/3 of their picks from round 1/3 being good so far). If Jason Smith improves, I think St. Louis could end up with the best draft out of that draft class, and they didn’t get all that great of players.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Green Bay had a fantastic draft, they got three starters (Raji, Matthews and Jones) on defense alone.
Lions drafted three starters, including a QB who looks to be legit (Stafford, Pettigrew, Delmas)
The Eagles got LeSean McCoy and Jeremy Maclin.
Vikings check in with three starters in Harvin, Loadholt and Asher Allen along with fill in starter Jasper Brinkley.
To say no one had a good draft is crazy, and the Rams are FAR from having the best draft.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I forgot about the Packers. I meant (after I typed it) to include the Eagles and packers. I didn’t realize though that the vikes were so good.
I didn’t say no one had a good draft, I just said I don’t remember many teams having solid drafts.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Asher Allen’s ceiling is a mediocre Tampa-2-only CB.
The point (not bross’) is that there weren’t a lot of good players in the 2nd round. Delmas is pretty good, but he was taken at the first spot in the 2nd. Chung is good too, taken #2 in round 2.
We all know how cherry-picking and hindsight work in the draft, you can always find one guy taken after everyone else who should have been picked before them.
rufio - September 28, 2010
Plenty of teams had what look to be good drafts in 2009. The jury is still out on every teams’ draft (except maybe the Raiders).
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
That is somewhat relevant. However, the shockingly bad nature of that draft is skewed towards the later picks, even the later pics of the “premium rounds” (meaning the third round, not the first two). The fact is only 4 second rounders have been discarded. We had 4 picks in the first 52, and based on what we have now, that draft is awful, regardless of how many 3rd to 7th rounders have been cut.
kwoog - September 27, 2010
Awful is a stretch. If you hit on your first round pick, which we did, it’s above awful.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
Hitting on your first rounder should be assumed, not lauded. Maybe getting one above average starter out of 3 picks in numbers 35-52 is awful.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
Savage took four players in the first round. Three of the four didn’t hang on long enough to finish out their rookie contracts. Given our recent track record in the first round, we should be singing from the roof tops whenever we hit on one.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
Wimbley, Edwards, and Thomas were all hits. Plenty of great GMs have missed on first round QBs (Newsome comes to mind).
What Savage has to do with Mangini’s draft ineptitude I’ll never know.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
Edwards was removed not for his lack of talent but for being a huge jackass. That tends to matter to some organizations when building a team. While maybe a hit from a draft perspective (although I’d say he definitely has fallen short of expectations) he should be considered a miss from a Browns perspective for basically punching his own ticket out of town. He had one good season for us.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Wimbley has one good season. I don’t know how you can call that a hit for a guy taken #13.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
He’s never been worse than an average starter in the league. He’s sometimes been above average.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
From you above about players sometimes looking good or showing potential at times. You can’t have it both ways.
Kimble_79 - September 28, 2010
I’m not, and it’s really too simple to explain, but I’ll do it anyways because I like repeating myself. If all four picks from 09 were to become average to above average starters, it would be a great draft. As it stands, one pick is a total bust, and another has shown nothing but signs that he is as well. Thus, of the two left, average isn’t going to cut it. It’s a shit draft.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
Oh, I’m not arguing that I think Mangini doesn’t draft nearly as well as Heckert can/has. I do think Heckert is WAY more qualified for that than Mangini. Heckert has the proven track record for that in Philly.
I still think its early for saying Robo is a bust and that MoMass is just average though.
I also am just trying to point out that you can’t say that b/c MoMass is average, he isn’t good enough, while at the same time saying Wimbley is average and he is good enough. Something has to give. Both have shown potential to play above average if you ask me, so they should be on the same playing field, IMO.
Kimble_79 - September 28, 2010
It’s a good point.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
I’m saying that if MoMass is the WR equivalent of Wimbley, it’s a crap draft (b/c of Robiskie and Veikune).
kwoog - September 29, 2010
so you are content at picking a guy in the top 15 and him becoming an ‘average’ starter? He may not be a complete bust, but i would be disappointed and I am disappointed with Wimbley.
You could argue that he is actually at times a below average starter when you account for his play against the run.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
Wimbley was above average one year, and Scott Fujita every other year. don’t get me wrong, you need guys like that, but if they were picked #13 overall they are a terrible draft pick and a bust.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
What I mean is, if Wimbley hadn’t been a bust, we would have gotten more than a third round pick for him.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
Ditto Edwards.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
A bust is a non-starter in the league. Both are still starting, so it’s not a commentary on their values/bust quality that Mangini traded them.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
if a guy is picked 13th in the draft and is only an average starter at best for a below average team 5 years later, I would call that at least a significant disappointment.
‘Busts’ can still start, doesn’t mean they are good or that they are a good starter.
Braylon Edwards is a starter, but considering he was the 3rd overall pick and is only an average starter, I would probably call him a bust.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
He’s not an average starter. He’s the #1 receiver on a Super Bowl contender.
Bust doesn’t mean failing to live up to some ambiguous slotting system of value based on where you go in the round. It means not being Vernon Gholston, or Gerrard Warren, or Brady Quinn. Essentially, you don’t have to knock every #1 pick out of the park, you just have to minimize mistakes (and if you do this, you’ll clear the bases more times than not anyway…).
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I don’t really think that Braylon being their number 1 receiver, which I think becomes debatable when Holmes comes back, nor the Jets’ passing game has much of anything to do with them being a Super Bowl contender.
Also, this is just my opinion but bust for me would need to take into consideration whether or not you would in hindsight, take the player at the same position in the same draft.
I’m not saying that this is the only thing I would look at, or even greater than 50% but I think it’s something that should be taken into consideration, and I can’t think of anyone who would look back and say Braylon has proven to be worth his draft slot.
Honestly, Braylon at 3 in my opinion is barely more than a fielder’s choice single.
He’s had one year worth talking about and is basically nothing more than a potential and failed expectations receiver on a Super Bowl contender.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
According to your definition, Mack’s a bust to me (because I’d rather have Matthews).
Mack is definitely not a bust.
Look back at Braylon’s draft, and the people in the top 10 drafted after him, and tell me who you’d rather have.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
Yea, that was the worst draft I can remember. Demarcus Ware was that year, correct? He would have been a major reach at 3, but in hindsight the best pick.
Roger Dorn - September 30, 2010
Yeah, he was, and would have been a huge reach, but also the best pick in hindsight.
I know Mendenhall is tearing it up, but the Steelers passed on Chris Johnson for him. That’s an example of what I mean, I think… To a certain extent this whole draft conversation is more unscientific than most… which is saying something.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
Ware and Merriman.
rufio - September 30, 2010
I would have wanted Aaron Rodgers. at the time, I thought he was the guy to get to put in at QB (though I still would have liked to have Thomas first and Jamaal Brown would have been my 2nd choice).
He wasn’t top ten, but he was projected by most to be top 10. he fell, because after a certain point, teams aren’t looking for another QB.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Also Matthews was taken 5 spots after Mack. I didn’t call it some immutable standard. I just said it was something I would take into consideration as in I would look at other things as well. I’m fairly certain your reading comprehension is strong enough that you could get that so i guess you had other reasons for your comment.
Villeslgr - September 30, 2010
I didn’t say anything about the top 10.
Merriman
Ware
Rodgers
White
Miller
Jackson
Gore
Tuck
But like I said below, I never said that was my sole criteria for calling a pick a bust, so i don’t know why you chose to reply as if I did.
Also it’s not about who I would take instead of Braylon it’s whether I would take him at 3. In hindsight, I’d rather have someone above or I would prefer to trade down.
Villeslgr - September 30, 2010
I didn’t choose it as the sole criteria. I eliminated it as any portion of the criteria.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
In hindsight, we should have offered two firsts for Drew Brees. That means nothing.
Knowing what we know now, and looking back objectively at a particular context (07 draft), the Edwards pick is not a bust. And we could have done 100s times worse.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
See: Williams, Mike
Bernie19Kosar - September 30, 2010
I don’t think anyone is saying Edwards is a bust. I definitely am not saying that and i don’t think Villelgr is either.
I am going to refrain from quoting a fallacy but you seem to be looking at it as if someone thinks edwards is a bad pick then he is a bust. good picks are hits and bad picks are busts. there are more than these options.
To me, edwards falls under the pick that looks bad in hindsight and while its not a bust, wasn’t a hit. In short, edwards is in draft purgatory. not in hell (bust) but not in heaven (good pick). He has done enough to not be a bust but not enough for us to justify taking him.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
You did earlier in this very same thread. Right here.
Can you see why I have no idea what you are ever talking about?
Bernie19Kosar - October 1, 2010
I said I would probably call him a bust. Considering where he was taken, he may be a bust, but I can’t fully call him a ‘bust’ in my mind. Part of me wants to call him that, but part of me doesn’t believe it.
bross09 - October 2, 2010
…What?
Can you see why I have no idea what you are ever talking about?
Bernie19Kosar - October 2, 2010
yeah…actually cotchery is the #1 in NY I believe. and Braylon might not even start once Santonio is back from his suspension.
he is an average starter when you look at his production on the field.
in 2000, at age 30, Quadry Ismail was no better than an average starter. However, he was the #1 WR on a super bowl winning team. this team relied on running the ball and defense, like the jets. I would not bump Quadry up for that year just b/c he was the #1 on a super bowl contender.
actually, you should occasionally knock a first round pick out of the park. if you just try to minimize mistakes, you end up with a bunch of average to above average starters (who are payed like stars). Is a team full of average players going to win a SB? Probably not even with the perfect coaching.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
I think with Braylon’s potential and physical talents he’s always going to be a starter in the league.
Whether that position has been earned or is warranted I’m not certain.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
He’s Roy Williams.
golanbatrac - September 30, 2010
he is better than Roy Williams IMO, but marginally. Very good comparison actually.
to Ville above, I feel like getting 2 birds with one stone…I completely agree with what you are saying too.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
I’ll put it another way. you said MoMass is a bust because he is just average and the rest of the draft was bad in the first two rounds. You then say Wimbley is not a bust because he played average football consistently.
you said it would be a good draft if all of the players taken in the first two rounds were average starters. so who was taken second in 2006? DQ. so 4 years later neither is playing for the browns, one is average at best, and the other hasn’t played over half a season in 2 years now.
Not to mention both were taken higher than their counterparts from 2009. Please explain to me how Massaquoi is a bust but not wimbley.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
Where did I call Massaquoi a bust?
kwoog - September 29, 2010
Thanks, but that’s not what I said. I said it makes the draft automatically better than awful. An awful draft would be missing on your first round pick.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
If you have 3 more pics in the top 50 (that you got by trading away top 10 players, arguably, at their position) then yes, it is an awful draft.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
We had one extra pick in the top 50. We traded Evel Knievel and his 5 knee surgeries (now 6) to Tampa for MoMass and a 2010 pick that we used to move up and take Hardesty. That’s a win for the Browns (especially considering the contract Winslow got from the Bucs).
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
Then forget the parentheses. We had two extra, one from K2 and one from moving down. Hitting on one of the four is atrocious. Hitting on two of the four is bad.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
as of right now Alex Mack>Sanchez, even if you take into account their positional values (and you also have to take into account salaries which for mack is much less). i dunno if sanchez will ever be a franchise QB but mack could be a ‘franchise’ Center (like a matt birk or an olin Kreutz)
bross09 - September 28, 2010
have you actually looked this up? how many teams hit on over 50% of their first and second round draft picks? I would guess 50% is average, not bad.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I just can’t figure out how players are getting classified as hits and misses, it would help me understand everyone’s argument a lot more.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Simply put, no, 50% is not acceptable for 1st and 2nd rounders probability of becoming starters.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I would rather have a good hit on a draft pick and a miss (50%) with my first and 2nd rounders than 2 picks that didn’t miss, but only became average starters.
The first and 2nd rounds are where you get the stars of your team to build around. Its okay if you miss as long as you hit big. If you keep only getting average starters, you will turn out with just an average team.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
I wholly and completely disagree with this.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
so you get stars later in the draft?
Like I pointed out above, if you keep on ‘minimizing mistakes’ in the first round and though you never miss, you never get that big star, you will never build a super bowl contender.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
It’s never okay to miss on picks in the top 2 rounds (it should always provoke deep evaluation of what went wrong). That’s all I’m saying.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
which is better, getting a franchise QB or getting 2 slightly above average starters, one at DT and one at WR. I take the QB 100 times out of 100. if you knock a pick out of the park, it cancels out a miss really.
the steelers could have missed in 2003 and taken Jimmy Kennedy and they still would’ve been fine because they got roethlisberger. It would have been much better than if they took Calvin Pace and Vernon Carey (two solid starters). It doesn’t have to be a QB either. If the Cardinals took Mike Williams after taking Fitzgerald, they still would have been fine, and better off if they got a couple guys like a Lee Evans and a Derrick Johnson.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
A franchise QB is an story entirely. This seems obvious, and is not relevant to commentary on drafting per se.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
As to the second part, no team is ever “fine” missing on a 1st rounder. It sets every team back quite a lot, in my opinion. Missing on 2nds does as well, though not as badly.
In the NFL you have to have needs addressed before they become needs. That’s why a Timmons is drafted by a team that has arguably the best starting LBs in football. You can only do that when you don’t miss very often, and it’s also the only way to sustain a good team.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
well, how much does drafting 3-4 guys in the first round that are only average starters hurt? Financially, a lot because you end up with a roster of guys who are all overpayed. they are guys playing like average starters but being payed like impact players.
first rounders are payed like impact players. if none of your first rounders make an impact, then you have failed.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
So starter is a hit, non-starter miss for 1st and 2nd rounders? Just trying to see where you are coming from.
Roger Dorn - September 29, 2010
1st and 2nd rounders need to become starters for you, most of the time. That’s what they mean by building through the draft. Veikune completely crapping out has already spent all the margin of error there was for the 09 draft. Thus, the only thing keeping it from a bad draft is a miraculous turnaround from Robiskie and Massaquoi improving. If only one of these things happen, it’s a bad draft. If two happen it’s a good draft. If neither happens, it’s an atrocious draft. All scenarios are possible at this point (but some seem more likely than others).
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I actually completely agree with your premise that in a year where you are trading away your players with actual trade value, you need to really do well in that draft in which you have loaded up on picks. From this sense (purely referring to the draft picks), it feels like a missed opportunity, no disagreement there.
I feel like determining if a guy is a hit or not based on if he starts is a bit simplistic since you could trot out a starting LB corps of Andra Davis, Kevin Bentley and Ben Taylor (thanks Butch), but clearly 2 of these 3 don’t even belong in the NFL.
Mack looks like a potential top 5 center if not one already. Massaquoi from my untrained eye seems like he would be just fine as a starting number 2. I doubt Robiskie turns into much, and Veikune is gone, so that much is very disappointing.
The whole argument is moot in my opinion, because Mangini is focusing on what many of us actually believe he can do a decent job at which is coaching up players. Heckert, who seems to have an eye for talent, is now in charge of acquiring players. The rest to me is like arguing about Anderson or Quinn.
Roger Dorn - September 29, 2010
Fantastic post.
This made me throw up. Who is the best LB we have had since ’99? Jamir Miller?
Bernie19Kosar - September 29, 2010
Although, we traded Braylon after the draft, I Bross with your Bross.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
I’m not just saying this, but I agree with almost everything in this post. I think Massaquoi is a definite “incomplete” at this point, not an obvious number 2. Other than that, yeah, I agree.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
Cuts are always skewed toward the later rounds. The point is that never have this many players from a draft been cut or traded this early in their careers. That holds true for the second round on. It’s looking like a very weak draft across the board.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
MoMass sucks. there is no such thing as a WR playing out of position because he’s going to be covered by different players regardless. It’s his responsibility to get open regardless of who’s guarding him. If you can’t get open, then you suck.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 28, 2010
It’s MoMass’s fault Seneca can’t throw a deep ball to save his life? Or that Seneca throw’s only to RBs, TEs and Cribbs? I expect his numbers to go up once Delhomme is back.
StuckInPa - September 28, 2010
why are people insisting that the causal direction is seneca only throws to RBs, TEs and Cribbs (which in and of itself makes no sense as a criticism, since Cribbs is a WR…), therefore the other WRs are suffering? wouldn’t it stand to reason that he throws to whomever is open — as evidenced by the fact that he completes passes to all eligible pass-catching positions — and the fact that momass isn’t getting the ball has more to do w/ his inability to get open than it does some made up preference by wallace?
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
Our pass offense does favor those inside eligible receivers, IMO. Like I said, we have a lot of routes that are harder to throw that the WRs run. The inside routes are much easier to throw.
Right now MoMass is in the role that is supposed to be played by Randy Moss. Not only is he not close to as good as Moss, his strengths are different—he isn’t Randy Moss lite.
rufio - September 28, 2010
This.
Also, this is why we really needed Carlton Mitchell to be much better than he is. He is Randy Moss lite (or super-ultra-lite, anyway). He has the size and speed that would require double coverage and that would open things up ever so slightly for the other receivers.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
but the design of the offense and the skill of the players are two separate arguments.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
because he didn’t just do it here. he targeted his RBs and TEs in Seattle more often than Hasselbeck did when he stepped in for hasselbeck. He also targeted Housh more often than Hasselbeck and housh was purely as posession guy last year. Seneca had trouble hitting his WRs who could stretch the field but he was able to hit guys who ran short routes with much more consistency.
he actually TRIED to throw it to his deep WRs in seattle but struggled there.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
evidence, please. sorry, but i can’t just take your word for it.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
Okay. How about you go back and sort through the box scores from the seahawks in 2009 and find targets and catches and sort out guys position and role on the team. I really don’t feel like wasting an hour and a half just to give you evidence. if you want it, it is there.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
If you haven’t done it, how can you claim it?
That is his point.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
I have looked at the box scores, I just have not tabulated them as a whole on a spread sheet.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
You can’t do that. If you make a claim then you are the one who is required to provide evidence to back it up. You can’t make a statement then tell someone else to find evidence that disproves it. That’s not how rational discourse operates.
Buckeye Brad - September 28, 2010
so you want me to go waste a half hour of my life, go to every box score of games that seneca played in, just to prove a point? honestly, I have better things to do with my time. If it was something i could quickly look up, it would be one thing, but this would take a decent amount of spreadsheet work.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
so, effectively, you’re saying you made this up:
and this:
DontCallMeJoey - September 29, 2010
you want me to waste my valuable time to calculate this? I don’t think you are honestly worth it.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
ignoring the ridiculousness of your comments about the value or your time and, well, me …
i don’t care if you take the time to calculate anything, but don’t make claims that you have zero ability to back up.
DontCallMeJoey - September 29, 2010
I have ability, just not the time or energy. Right now, I am lucky I am finding time to come on here, and honestly, I shouldn’t be wasting my time right now in the first place. if writing this is putting me far behind, imagine what doing your bidding and taking a half hour or more to tabulate this would do.
If you want to say you won fine. if you want to battle me and try to force me to waste my time, then you are just a dick.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
You are missing the point completely. YOU are the one who made the statement of fact that you are now refusing to back up. If you don’t have the proof, then don’t make the statement. It’s that simple. Don’t whine about other people making you waste your time when nobody forced you to make that statement in the first place.
My goodness, do you really not get this?
Buckeye Brad - September 29, 2010
You could repeat it a million times.
StuckInPa - September 29, 2010
I would normally back it up with evidence but I have a midterm due tomorrow and another one I have to study for on monday…I am kinda swamped and right now am on my study break…
god. sorry I pissed you off so much for STUDYING.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
Sorry Bross, but it’s not really about the STUDYING.
You probably could use a break that involves less chance for stress.
Not telling you what to do or anything, but just speaking from experience from having studied for many midterms and finals.
Villeslgr - September 30, 2010
yeah true. that is why I am trying to avoid this. I really don’t want stress right now…
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Seriously . . . why do you have such a problem understanding what I’m saying? I know you’re not stupid so stop acting like that.
It has nothing to do with you studying. I don’t care how much time you have to study or do anything else. The point, for the last time, is DO NOT MAKE A STATEMANT IF YOU CAN’T BACK IT UP. You are the one who made the claim so it’s your responsibility to provide evidence to support it; it’s not on everyone else to prove you wrong. If you don’t have that evidence, or don’t have the time to find it, then don’t make the statement.
For a guy who likes to show off his college education by quoting logical fallacies all the time, you sure are acting illogical right now.
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
wow…now you are putting words into my mouth. I never said you thought I was stupid. now you are just being ridiculous.
you know what, at some point I conceded that since I didn’t have the time to back it up, Joey was ‘right’…but somehow this has been going on and on…
I really don’t ‘show off’ my college education. that is a ridiculous statement, especially since that is stuff I self-taught myself in HS. now you are making me out to really be something I am not. I rarely talk about my education or my level of education, and I almost never quote fallacies anymore. they are fun to use in arguments, but I don’t use them as much (I think I quoted a fallacy once since June, so I don’t know where you are getting this shit from)
bross09 - September 30, 2010
And I never said that you did, so how am I putting words in your mouth?
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
I guess I misinterpreted you saying “i know you are not stupid”. I apologiz for that.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Aha! Bross is a 13-year-old girl. Now it makes sense.
Chemo - September 30, 2010
I’m just amazed that someone who has posted over 10,000 comments, and in record time, all of a sudden is worried about making time for his grades.
Western Reserve - September 30, 2010
actually, I didn’t care last semester. no reason to be snarky because I want to do well in school.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
I am studying for college. I am a 19 year old girl.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
I have no idea who this is for, but the ESPN schedules list the top receiver in each game. Maybe this will help.
2009
2008.
2007
2006
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
the argument wasn’t about receiving yards, it was about catches and targets. but thanks.
bross09 - September 29, 2010
I’m not here to do work for anyone, if someone feels inclined to, clicking on the score leads you to the boxscore where said person can see for themselves who caught passes.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
exactly. Don’tCallMeJoey seems to want this handed to him on a plate. When I have time and i want statistical analysis, I DO it. I don’t have to prove myself to him, why do I care what he thinks?
bross09 - September 29, 2010
you’ve completely missed Ville’s point, but whatever.
MY point remains: i honestly do not care whether or not you look up these stats or provide any support for your (ridiculous) comments. what i ask is that you not say something like wallace threw more to X or Y w/o being prepared to show stats to back it up.
and if you have no stats handy, or are unwilling to check into it, we’re left with no choice but to conclude that you made up your original comment.
it’s a standard feature of discussion and argument.
DontCallMeJoey - September 29, 2010
I really stopped caring, but you really seem to be determined to beat me. personally, with the stuff I have to do right now, I don’t give a shit enough to try to prove my point to someone on the internet who just wants to feel like they are right.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
If that were the case you would just quit.
StuckInPa - September 30, 2010
If you haven’t noticed, I kinda did. I pretty much said ‘fine, you win’.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
No, you didn’t.
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
Here i pretty much concede that I don’t want to continue this anymore. funny enough, you start battling with me then.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Once again, you’re completely missing the point.
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
Are you listening to ANYTHING that everyone here is saying? Stop being so argumentative and think about what we’re telling you.
I feel like I’m talking to a wall here. You know, you wonder why people here get annoyed with you at times and you think they treat you different than everyone else — it’s because of things like this. Many people here are trying to explain to you why you need to provide evidence to back up you’re claim but you’re not listening to anyone. You keep insisting that Joey is just out to get you instead thinking about what we’re saying. Nobody is picking on you, you’re just wrong here. This is why people get frustrated with you and it’s completely justified.
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
I never insisted that anyone was out to get me…again with the twisting of my words.
I know you are a mod, but is it just the teacher in you that feels like you have to get involved with this?
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Ok, we all got the point. Saying Wallace only throws to TE’s and RB’s is a generalization. Bross isn’t going to look it up. He concedes. We argue some more. Now its over.
GROUP HUG and STOP PLEASE…Football people…FOCUS
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
perfect group hug time.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Not in this particular discussion you haven’t, but many other times when I (or others) get on your case about something you complain that you get picked on and other people do the same thing but nobody says anything to them. You’ve done that MANY times, so don’t pretend like you haven’t and don’t tell me that I’m twisting your words. I am most certainly not twisting your words.
Buckeye Brad - September 30, 2010
I haven’t done that for months. I like to disregard most of what I said in the first 3 months here. After that, I get much more sane and act like I am being picked on less and less.
I admit to doing that in the past, though I haven’t done that here for a while. I guess, when you said that, it felt like you were talking about recently or this particular time.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Wow, you are completely missing the point.
Buckeye Brad - September 29, 2010
Really I was just trying to make it easier for anyone, to find the stats and post them so this part of the thread can die or move on.
But i’m pretty sure it’s standard operating procedure here for someone who makes a claim to provide their own evidence.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
This is wrong. I’’d prefer you reply to golan’s eloquent points and let me know what you disagree with, but he makes a very strong case for MoMass having pretty good potential. I don’t know if you guys are expecting a number 1 but to suggest he is not a legitimate 2 is just you being a robotic pessimist.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Golan could eloquently make a case that Veikune is a future star. In fact, I’m surprised he hasn’t yet. But the facts remain the same, Mangini sucks at drafting and in Golan’s eyes anything he does is de facto good.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
My Veikune crush is over. He’s an obvious bust.
As far as Mangini is concerned, my take on Mangini is that I don’t know if he’s the guy that finally gets the job done or not. The most I’ve ever said about him is that no matter if he’s fired after one year, or three, or five, he’ll leave the team in much better shape than he found it and that that is a marked improvement over our previous regimes. The next coach we have (whether that’s someone from outside the organization or Mangini himself) will inherit a roster full of well coached, hard working, high motor guys who play from whistle to whistle. The type of roster that you don’t have to blow up.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
It’s easy to accumulate hard-working guys when they’re all slow, talentless, and a few weeks away from being out of the league. It really is amazing how slow and unathletic this team is, considering how young it is. I’d rather a coach who actually coaches guys up, teaching talented players how to fit into a team, rather than one who excludes talented playes ipso facto, because they don’t fit some preconceived “army of one” cliche.
kwoog - September 28, 2010
yeah…because mangini has a sign on his door that says ‘no talent allowed beyond this point’
bross09 - September 28, 2010
i actually find myself right in between on this one … i like the general direction that mangini has taken the team in terms of accountability, discipline, etc. … but i was looking at the roster before the bucs game, and it is AMAZING the lack of talent that occupies this team. i mean, staggering.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
I can agree with this. I like the “general” attitude he’s instilled. I just wish it was a bit more flexible to allow for some pure talent. I know he thought he had to raze the whole damn thing to start “his” program. I disagree with that. But I’m not in the locker room.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
Not being snarky, but Edwards and Winslow. What would be your preference for those two players? Still on the team with new contracts or trade? If trade, maybe for better picks players than what we received?
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
I don’t have a problem with either trade, though I wouldn’t have minded hanging on to Edwards. It’s more about the player influx, not the departures.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
I see, that makes sense. It actually changes my perception of your view a bit, because to me I’ve been looking at it as one huge package with each side having equal weight.
I think my view at the time was that Edwards was working his way to becoming a huge problem and that he wouldn’t be back next year anyway, so it was best to get what we could for him. My personal preference would have been to trade him and one of our two QBs in time for the draft. I think that might have allowed us to better maximize our return as opposed to waiting until the season had started and it had become obvious how big a nuisance he was becoming.
Yes I understand this was in large part a fault/strength of Mangini, depending on your viewpoint of his coaching style, but I feel regardless of the coach, Edwards was quickly running out of string.
Villeslgr - September 29, 2010
I think we can all agree that whatever happened with the Kokinis/Mangini power struggle was detrimental from the player acquisition perspective.
Roger Dorn - September 30, 2010
Which leads me to bring up an old point of mine… That Lerner is a crappy manager. But we don’t have to worry about that anymore, thank God.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
I’m not entirely sure what went wrong with Lerner. Maybe he was just too easily swept off his sweet by words and enthusiasm that he was unable to make smart decisions about the team. I don’t know.
I agree with your thanks.
Villeslgr - September 30, 2010
Lerner is a trust fund baby who would probably be a janitor today if in the nursery he’d been switched over a crib.
kwoog - September 30, 2010
Ha. Because trust fund babies fall right out of that crib and into jobs as an attorney in New york.
bross09 - September 30, 2010
Pretty much.
kwoog - October 2, 2010
actually not really. and I guess you didn’t catch my sarcasm.
bross09 - October 2, 2010
definitely
Villeslgr - September 30, 2010
These ‘slow, talentless’ players have gone 4-4 in our last eight games and just took the Ravens deep into the fourth quarter. That’s the very definition of ‘coaching guys up’.
And anyway, the roster will be a lot less slow and a lot more talented once we have a chance to fill out the roster. Many of our starters right now are placeholders. Guys that will be bumped to the bottom half of the roster or off of the team over the course of the next year or two.
Savage left us with a roster full of talented yet underperforming headcases, a slew of crippling contracts, and a grand total of four draft picks. And yet it’s somehow surprising that we’ve had to make do with as many waiver wire pick ups, undrafted free agents and long-in-the-tooth veterans as we have. Mangini comes in and makes all the difficult choices that no one in this franchise has been willing to make in the last decade, and yet somehow he’s supposed to be responsible for the mess he was hired to come in and clean up? Doesn’t seem right to me.
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
This
Kimble_79 - September 28, 2010
Well said.
Monsters of the Midway - September 28, 2010
I drastically disagree with your characterization of the team Mangini inherited.
kwoog - September 29, 2010
isn’t suggesting that he IS a legitimate number 2 just the inverse of being a “robotic pessimist”? maybe he’ll develop into one — though i doubt it — but he CERTAINLY isn’t a legitimate number 2 WR in the NFL today.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
It would be if he hadn’t put up legit numbers for a first year receiver last year. As it stands, his numbers compare favorably to other #2 wideouts taken higher in that draft (Maclin and Harvin). Hell, his numbers compare favorably to the first year stats for some legit #1 receivers as well (Calvin Johnson and Santonio Holmes come immediately to mind).
I mean seriously, he fell short of Harvin and Maclin by less than 10 yards and 1/8th of a touchdown per game last year while playing out of position and on one of the worst offenses in league history. I can’t understand how anyone can look at the numbers and not be, at the very least, cautiously optimistic in regards to his chances at developing into a legit #2?
golanbatrac - September 28, 2010
I think one of the worst offenses in league history is key for me as well. Didn’t we only attempt 35 passes in our last 4 games? How the hell is the guy supposed to put up numbers in that case?
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
Who do you consider a legit #2 and what kind of numbers do they put up?
rufio - September 28, 2010
Calling a guy an adequate starter as I did earlier in the thread, doesn’t scream optimism to me. I could be wrong though.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
plus — and forgive me if you’re not the one who’s said this, but it’s been said several times — if i’m not allowed to judge momass on the downside yet b/c it’s “too early to judge the ’09 draft”, then it’s similarly “too early” to judge him to the upside.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
here’s where you’re getting the thoughts messed up. we aren’t saying he is a #2 guy. we’re saying all evidence points to him developing into one. His stats very clearly show he has the ability. the only reason to disbelieve is unbridled pessimism.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
fixed
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
yes, lets ignore a full 16 games with worse quarterbacks for the most recent 3 games.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
i never said ignore. but these last 3 games are starting to provide a pretty compelling counterpoint to last year … and, as you said, it’s coming w/ FAR superior qb’s.
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
3 games a compelling argument does not make.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
2 of which being played by the backup QB does not help either
Kimble_79 - September 29, 2010
backup has nothing to do with it … wallace is still miles ahead of the quinn/anderson shitshow, which is part of the point.
and, SB, i didn’t say 3 games sealed the deal, but that it’s starting to put some holes in the 16 games that you all were so enamored with last year.
DontCallMeJoey - September 29, 2010
Backup has everything to do with it. You really can honestly tell me that you think Wallace has a chemistry with the receivers that Delhomme has? Really? Delhomme has taken the majority of the snaps therefore the chemistry is obviously better with Delhomme in the game. How can the backup playing not factor in on this? I don’t understand this thinking.
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
noise said:
quinn/anderson are both clearly worse than delhomme/wallace. so whether seneca is the backup or not is beside the point for this particular conversation. he’s better than quinn or anderson.
DontCallMeJoey - September 30, 2010
I see what you are saying now. Yes, I would agree with that actually.
Kimble_79 - September 30, 2010
Uh, no.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
Wallace hasn’t even been targeting MoMass! How can you say he sucks? Hell Wallace isn’t targeting anybody but underneath routes and Cribbs. He only throws the ball deep if he feels heavy pressure coming quick and then they are 5yds out of bounds. I can’t hardly blame that on MoMass.
Kimble_79 - September 28, 2010
I strongly agree with all this.
kwoog - September 27, 2010
I think the draft started out good with the moves that we made, but it feels like after we selected Mack we fell asleep at the wheel. From the start of the draft to the selection of Mack we had set ourselves up to make some great strides through the draft. I still would have loved to have gotten Shonn Greene or Lesean McCoy. It pains me that we took, Robiskie, MoMass, and Veikune before either Greene or McCoy came off the board.
Villeslgr - September 27, 2010
McCoy is the one I would have wanted. I’d pass on Shonn Greene again, given the same circumstances at the time of the draft. He was already old with injury concerns when he was picked, and he plays the position with the shortest shelf life in the league. He’s had a few pretty good games behind a monster of a line, which I would expect from any 5th round pick at RB.
rufio - September 28, 2010
MoMass doesn’t suck.
It’s my speculation that if he were on the Colt’s he’d probably be putting up Collie like numbers, assuming Collie wasn’t there.
Simmsinns - September 28, 2010
at least…
Its hard to find examples of guys who played elsewhere after indy but I found a few:
http://www.nfl.com/players/dominicrhodes/profile?id=RHO405538
http://www.nfl.com/players/brandonstokley/profile?id=STO309337
http://www.nfl.com/players/benutecht/profile?id=UTE118654
http://www.nfl.com/players/marvinharrison/profile?id=HAR608874
(didn’t leave colts, but look at before/after manning numbers)
bross09 - September 28, 2010
I am glad that Lerner seems to know it takes more than one guy to be coach and GM, regardless of who that guy is.
rufio - September 28, 2010
KC 3-0 now? Wow.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
I know, right? They are not good. “Not that bad” at best.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
well, they beat us and we can’t hold onto a lead, they just barely beat the Chargers who currently are having a very bad game against a mediocre (at best) seattle team, and they destroyed the 49ers who are one of the worst playing teams right now.
they are surprising me but I’m still not sold.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Roth will need some direction this week too. His 2nd penalty cost us a chance for the stop.
tribe71 - September 26, 2010
the game was lost already, it’s understandable.
BuenosAires_Dawg - September 26, 2010
the game was not over already. if we get a stop there we have 2 minutes to score. that’s doable.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
At least this kind of game is what we were hoping to see this season. We expect them to lose but we wanted to see them play tough, competitive football. With exception of Wright, they did. Terry Pluto wrote that despite the 0-3 start, this team is better than last year’s. If they could come this close to a win in Baltimore, beating them at home isn’t out of the question.
I hate to say it, but it seems that the Squeelers are the team to beat in the division.
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
Good post dawg. You step back and look at the football the Browns are playing and it is without a doubt better than most games last year. I get queasy just thinking about that Buffalo game last year, ugh.
And might I suggest an update for your sig line?
Colt McCoyT.J. Ward… the cure for Cleveland’s Eric Berry man-crush.Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
Good suggestion. I’ll make the change. Obviously I put that one up right after the draft so it’s about time for an update.
dawgtribe - September 28, 2010
Even better, he pushed Landry back a good 8 yards.
dawgtribe - September 28, 2010
Another loss that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I feel bad for Mangini at this point because guys are just not executing. Today it was Eric Wright being exposed as a fraud. Cowher is right when he said in the post-game that with Cleveland’s level of talent, everything has to go right, and they have to play error free football.
I liked when we were playing smashmouth, AFC North, Cleveland Browns football and lining up and just pounding the hell out of the ball right at Baltimore. Credit to the hogs on our O-line and Peyton Hillis. In fact, I think we should have run the ball more; there’s really no need for Seneca throwing the ball all over the field or tossing balls out of bounds deep to Josh Cribbs.
Western Reserve - September 26, 2010
I’d rather be 0-16 than be a fucking Ravens fan. How do those people live in their own skin?
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010 via mobile
Like idiots.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Vick is a monster.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
Definitely has become a much better passer
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I do love how our society treated Vick like an outcast for so long for his crime (which was abhorrent, yes) and Ray Lewis has always been treated like a demigod.
DisplacedBuckeye - September 26, 2010
Vick was convicted. Ray wasn’t.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Ray should have been……
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
You’re on the wrong side of the fence Em.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Ray was convicted, just not of murder. he made a plea bargain in exchange for ratting on his friends, who were then found innocent.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
Ah never mind then. But he wasn’t imprisoned for murder like Vick was for dogfighting was the point I was trying to make.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Ray did indeed plead guilty for obstructing justice in a murder case.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
Ben Roethlisberger wasn’t convicted…enough said.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
I’ve always been a fan of Vick as a player, and as a result I supported him through and after the whole thing, in a Tony Dungy kind of way. (I didn’t think he was innocent or anything.) I hope he’s a successful QB because his style is incredible entertaining to watch.
But, I do think sometimes our society values the lives of our pets higher than that of human life.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
I find it absurd he spent as much time behind bars as he did.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
*if he should’ve at all.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
As I’ve said elsewhere, I am rooting for Vick for several reasons (including that he has been a solid pickup on both my fantasy teams), but dude definitely deserved to do some time. I think he learned his lesson and he paid his debt, but our society should not tolerate what he did without punishment.
TheDriveStillHurts - September 26, 2010
Agreed but the punishment he was given was overboard.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
agreed. they got him for a long sentence (if I remember correctly) because it was running an illegal business across state lines.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Think if he did not try and cover it all up he would not have spent time behind bars.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Oh, was that part of the issue? I did not know this.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Right. That was a big part of the reason he got jail time. Not just the crime, but lying to investigators and trying to cover it up.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
Oh I could say so much here. But that would lead to the thread being closed, etc.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
I started to respond to this comment and for once thought better of it and just hit cancel
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010
…I didn’t wanna do it either.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Then quit responding about the punishment being overboard.
rufio - September 27, 2010
People were trying to end it and you just kept going. I damn near jumped in too.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I am gnawing a chew toy trying to stay silent. Monster indeed.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 28, 2010
I have a bipolar relationship with him in a way…
I was a HUGE fan of him in college. along with peyton manning, he was one of the first college players I became a fan of. I rooted for him in the pros though was disappointed when he couldn’t find consistency (but loved to watch him). then, I felt betrayed with the whole dogfighting thing and then stopped caring. now I am on his side again.
you can call me a bandwagoner of sorts with him, but I have always hoped he would come back and do well…plus, i am a huge dog lover.
I do agree that we put some bizarrely weighted values. PETA epitomizes that (don’t even get me started on them…) but I agree, Ray Ray is at least as bad for being involved in a murder.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Rec for entendre.
rufio - September 27, 2010
rec for knowing how to spell that word without looking it up (I’m assuming) and for catching the entendre.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Pretty hilarious to read the comments in this thread about Boldin after I got toasted in my thread about the Browns not trying to get a better receiver of those that were available this year. All I can say is that I’m sure glad we didn’t get that injury-prone, geriatric, has-been on our team. We are so much better off trying to depend on Stuckie, Robiskie and Massaquoi. That was sarcasm if you didn’t catch it… :-)
Meanwhile, I maintain my position that we only have two playmakers on offense: Cribbs and Hillis. We need more and that can’t happen just through the draft.
Question 1: Do folks in general think Daboll called a better game offensively today?
Question 2: Is Wallace someone we can depend on at QB when it doesn’t look like he can throw deep at all?
I heard some analysis saying that our receivers weren’t running far enough from the sideline and so Wallace was actually throwing to the right place (I think Kosar said this). I looked closely at the deep ball he threw out of bounds to Cribbs today and Cribbs was a good 10 yards from the sideline.
Finally: If the Browns had played like they did today from the beginning we’d be 2-1.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
Agreed. And the only people that agreed with you was Brownsfan4ever and Rocland. Oh, yay.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Man, some people don’t know the truth when it is put on a billboard outside their bedroom window. I guess if Boldin got 5 TDs today you’d be convinced?
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
No.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
If you had actually read the thread like you said you did, you would’ve realized his stats were inflated due to Wright, not his own self accomplishment
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Keep telling yourself that all you want.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Um, what?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
you totally missed the point in that thread and it’s going over your head again. Boldin is a good WR. by the time the rest of the team was good enough for that to matter he would be too old to make much of a contribution.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
But you’re right. CLEARLY, it was just Boldin’s amazing ability to teleport 10 yards away from Wright each time he was targeted. Too bad when he was shadowed by Ward, he lost this ability.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
You are right forgot Boldin has no skill at all.None of what he did today was his ablity to get open,Hold on to the football and run past people.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
This was stupid. You should’ve just not commented.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
That is what you try to make it sound like.Only reason in your mind that boldin put up any numbers on us was because of Wright not because Boldin is good
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Because it’s true.
The only reason you argue is because you think it was all Boldin and Wright didn’t suck.
LOOK. Boldin’s good, he’s far from #3 best in the league but he performance today was far from just his own abilities.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Ok you are right…..
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
I mean he stood in the endzone three times and just caught a ball wide open! He caught the ball like twice on the field and was left completely open by Wright. WHEN WARD WAS ON HIM, HE COULDN’T CATCH THE BALL.
Don’t ignore the obvious facts.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
So guess that was all just because wright never defended hm.Not because of Boldins moves off the line,head fakes oth push offs it was all just wright standing around picking his butt ok I get it now you are right.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Oh right, because you clearly saw all that develop. Were you watching the Boldin channel that has Boldin 100% all the time? Were you watching the Boldin cam?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
guess you was watching the wright channel and seen him do nothing at all and can say for sure that bolding did nothing to get open….
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
Dude, you really need to stop. You lose credibility on every reply.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
You try to make it sound like all Bodlin did was run a fly and wright stood and watched and I lose credibility?
God at least admit that Boldin had a good game and you do not know for sure that wright was not faked out or pushed away.You keep saying he did nothign vs anyone else.But yet the man pulled down 8 rec for 150+ and 3 tds he did not do all that on wright alone.
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
He did so do it all on Wright alone. Wright was always on him one on one. It was easy to see that Wright really wasn’t trying. His tackles were lackluster, his coverage was extremely soft. There was a replay early in the game where Boldin ran a seriously slow and soft wheel route and wright stayed 10 yards off. WTF? I am not saying Boldin sucks, I am saying that Wright helped Boldin by a very large margin. Especially in the TD catagory. And you clearly don’t know for sure if he was pushed off or faked either, so why bring that up? Damn, see why each time you comment your argument gets worse? So stop.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
And the way I prove my point is to watch when Ward was on him.
Where did that savvy, awesome receiver go then? Hm?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Like I said you are right sir I.It was all because Wright sucks and not at all because Boldin did anyhting at all other then run a fly and wright stood and picked his butt
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
I told you to shut up Bro. Each time you reply, you’re just ruining your argument. I’m trying to help you. Quit.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I agree with you Boldins numbers was only good because Wright stood by picking his butt….
Brownsfan4ever - September 26, 2010
The fact of the matter is, is that it was much more Wright’s fault than it was Boldin’s ability. Plain and simple.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
look at what eric wright did on other plays. He guarded derrick mason only a couple times and both times I believe mason got receptions. Sheldon Brown pretty much shut Mason down, but mason was able to have success against wright. Houshmanzadeh also had a nice play against wright. it was an overall inability to diagnose the play and react.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
If you want to argue, quit bringing the same thing up each time but only wording it differently, that’s stupid.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Or taking what I say and just throwing it to the extreme. I mean really? That’s weak.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
How do players get open? Not because they can run fast or they run great routes… it is ONLY because the defense screwed up? That is ignorant. So Rice only did well because every back he played against was terrible. Go figure… I agree that Boldin is not the greatest in the league but he would have been a great addition to the Browns and given our glaring deficit at receiver the Browns should have tried to get him.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
No, and you’re putting words in my mouth. My argument evolved into saying it was all Wright and none of Boldin and that’s not true, but Wright had a huge presence in Boldin’s stats today.
To deny that would be ignorant.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
a scrub wouldn’t have put up 140 yards and 3 TDs, but a scrub would still have had a good game.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
You are trying to make Boldin sound like a top-3 NFL wideout, which is equally as absurd.
Boldin is good. Just because he played a very good game against us once doesn’t mean he is all-world.
rufio - September 27, 2010
So when a receiver does well it is always because whoever covered him is a schmuck? How a receiver does is a synthesis of his own capability and that of those covering him. You cannot say that it was all Wright. That is just plain wrong.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
You cannot say it was all Boldin. That is just plain wrong.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Did anybody say it was all Boldin?
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Huh? So it was zero Boldin? OK… no point continuing. Have fun.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
That’s not what he said, either.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Not what I said, you put words in my mouth again.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Flacco>>>Seneca
Derrick Mason>>>MoMass
If our D was theirs and we put our supporting cast around boldin, he likely doesn’t get open that easily…even with how bad our D played.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
One game.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I may not have commented on that exact thread, but I definitely agreed with him at that time. I was one of the very few that said Boldin will make the difference in games, it was a huge move.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
A huge move for a team that isn’t rebuilding and just needs a couple of pieces to compete for a super bowl. Not so huge for the Browns.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I can agree with that as well.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
THIS. boldin is having such a great impact because of the established pieces around him. his impact would be MUCH less with our pieces
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Yes, thank you for understanding.
rufio - September 27, 2010
That kind of help will not be coming for a few years. We could not make the Boldin move. First, no one wants to come to this passing offense. Secondly, he was traded for a high round draft choice – and would you really want to give a high draft choice to get a target for Jake Delhomme or Seneca Wallace? The truth is, by the time the Browns are a contender, Boldin will be a little long in the tooth. The only way out is to hit the draft hard, make solid picks, develop the players, get close, then you can trade for the missing pieces. When you have this team how in earth could you trade a high pick for a WR?
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
This.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
The trade was Anquan Boldin + a 5th rounder for a 3rd + 4th rounder.
Yes.
But as was discussed ad nauseam, none of this really matters b/c Boldin had a say in the trade and probably preferred to go to a contender like Baltimore.
Monsters of the Midway - September 26, 2010
It’s also his hometown team.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Boldin is from Florida.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
Some announcer said that it was his first touchdown in his hometown.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
That’s weird. He must have been mistaken. I happen to know for sure that he’s from Florida.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
Most announcers are idiots so.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Some announcer also said last year that Eric Wright was one of the League’s top cornerbacks.
Also, Royal Roberts.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
This. Royal Roberts was just a weak effort. at the very least, they have to get the players’ names right.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
He is still injury prone.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
Yes. Exactly.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
The guy (Boldin) just torched the Browns for 3 TD’s and the discusssion is he’s injury prone. Gotta’ love that.
Ravens One - September 27, 2010
We knew who the Ravens were and we let them off the hook.
Brownie's Year - September 27, 2010
That’s not the discussion, I think Boldin is great, but to suggest he doesn’t have an injury history is wrong or naive. One of the two.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
When did Boldin get injured?
Was it before the 3TD’s or after the 3 TD’s?
Ravens One - September 27, 2010
either you’re trolling or the point of this discussion just flew about a mile over your head.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
Hmm, which one could it be?
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
The question should be when will he get hurt? For your sake I hope it’s not like the past two playoffs for the Cardinals where he basically sat out the majority of the playoff games.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
I think Daboll called a much better game today. If he can call a game like that every time, I’d be happy with keeping him around.
BrownDawg1409 - September 26, 2010
I would just like to point out… I thought we should’ve made a run at Boldin. I don’t think I ever changed my tune on that, but I could be wrong.
shep615 - September 27, 2010
I have to give some credit to Daboll and company. If you would have told me before the game that Hillis would give the Ravens a vanilla enema I would have thought you were crazy. Color me impressed.
realmccoy - September 26, 2010
Fergie has no business being up there to sing.
Also, did we send our old Alts. to Miami? Because they’re almost exactly the same.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Oh hey. B.E. shaved the beaver off his face.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I think I saw another joke about the spanish reporter.
The graphic they show before commercials was in spanish haha
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I saw that too. Kinda pisses me off.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Great game, guys!
I must admit that I game your team very little credit going into this game, but after watching you boys (live), I must say that I’ve very impressed.
It’s very clear that the Browns need a franchise quarterback, but Wallace was efficient. The most impressive thing to me was the Browns offensive line. Those guys are brutes, and don’t let anyone say otherwise. I’m convinced that the Ravens defensive line underestimated them. The left side of the line is insanely strong, and honestly, they were only better once Pashos got in there. Thomas is a monster.
Peyton Hillis is so cool. I watched his interview on NFL.com. He seems like a really humble guy but a real warrior. He played an awesome game and ran hard at a ferocious defensive line. He was an awesome pickup for the Browns.
All in all, I’m ashamed that I didn’t give the Browns more respect going into this game. Impressive performance, but I’m still happy our guys found a way to win. I just hope you guys don’t get a franchise QB, because you’d be very dangerous then.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
Thanks man.
We love Hillis and our O-line. Hopefully Dellhome comes back soon because he’s better than Wallace.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
is he really?
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
Oh yes!
Simmsinns - September 27, 2010
I think he is.
rufio - September 28, 2010
yes.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I doubt it.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
In what way do you think wallace is better?
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
maybe at limiting mistakes through the air and playing the dink and dunk game?
For Delhomme’s tenure in Carolina, his TD/INT ratio was 1.35/1. If you take away his horrendous 2009 campaign it goes up to 1.5/1.
Seneca’s career TD/INT ratio (including his time as a starter here) is 1.8/1. His ratio just in seattle is 1.78/1 and his TD/INT ratio just as a starter in seattle is 2/1.
Seneca’s career completion % is also better than delhomme’s though only by a % point or two.
in that sense, maybe he thinks seneca is less likely to lose us games.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
you’re also looking at a substantially smaller sampler size for seneca. I also think there are other ways to lose us games than interceptions that don’t necessarily show up on a stats sheet.
Obviously I wouldn’t want either guy as my franchise QB, but when choosing between the two I much prefer Delhomme.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
I’d have to mark myself as leaning JD but still undecided. Seneca looked marginally OK this week at the short game. His weakness at the long ball is somewhat terrifying, but he’s learning, and there might be some upside there yet.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 28, 2010
obviously its a substantially smaller sample size. However, its 500+ attempts and a good portion of time when the D was actually gameplanning for him (like when he was a starter for several games in 2008). I think thats enough of a sample size to objectively evaluate someone’s ability to play the QB position (at least in a short term aspect)
bross09 - September 28, 2010
I trust Wallace to turn the ball over less.
Wallace seems to have a nice rapport with Cribbs.
I forget who it was, but someone mentioned that with Cribbs and Wallace on the field at the same time, the Flash/Cyclone package is much more dangerous than with Delhomme out there.
We need a QB that makes the easy throws, protects the ball and keep the defense on their toes. I think Seneca is better in that role than Delhomme.
Bernie19Kosar - September 28, 2010
I agree. I hope he can have a season similar to 2008 when Hasselbeck is hurt: doesn’t throw a lot of deep balls but keeps the INTs down and the completions up.
bross09 - September 28, 2010
but we haven’t seen Delhomme in that role. we’ve seen delhomme throw 40 passes and be asked to carry the team, and he didn’t do that awfully. Delhomme has a much better rapport with Robi and MoMass. I have yet to see a defense respect Seneca’s scrambling ability. for that matter, I can’t remember him scrambling anywhere but out of bounds behind the line.
I think Delhomme makes quicker decisions than Wallace, and I think he would be much better in a game manager role. But I guess we won’t know who’s right until Delhomme plays again.
notthatnoise - September 28, 2010
That’s the thing, I don’t think Delhomme can play that role.
I don’t think he can be the 25 pass, no INT role.
Wallace has shown he can.
Bernie19Kosar - September 29, 2010
I mentioned that you could maintain the element of surprise by having them both out there throughout the game. But since they only seem to dust it of for a play or two – and my recollection is that those few times weren’t even critical downs – then it seems like a waste. And when Delhomme does come back it will also be a waste if they only bring Wallace out for the gadget plays. He can play a bit of WR and he needs to do so when Delhomme is taking the snaps just so defenses get used to seeing him on the field for conventional plays.
And let me caveat that I’m not saying use those packages only on critical downs and thus become predictable and eliminate the potential for surprise. But for the love of God, if it works then find creative ways to mix it in at various times. I got kind of torqued when I read the Daboll quote after the KC game that he just didn’t get around to it.
Sorry. I think I got a little soap-boxy there. But not so sorry that I won’t hit the post button.
JustBob - September 28, 2010
I would really, really, really like to see us bring out the full cyclone/flash stuff.
rufio - October 2, 2010
It wasn’t more you guys found a way to win, but that we gave it to you.
Love Hillis, Love the O – line (The left side is like my favorite child though) and it’s just disappointing. We fix one thing one week, another breaks the next.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I don’t know… I thought Boldin’s third touchdown was a pretty decisive moment for our offense.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
Heaven forbid I start another god damn argument but I believe that Wright gift wrapped all three of those TD’s for you.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Well… He had big catches all over the field.
I haven’t analyzed each play, but you would think that the Browns would start rolling the coverage after the second touchdown. Football is a team sport. I find it hard to believe that the team could honestly blame one player like that.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
All I saw was One on one’s with Boldin against Wright. The only time I saw Boldin miss a catch was when we finally got #43 on him. All the other catches were on Wright. If you weren’t focusing though, you’d never know. I had the ability of tivo
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
when the guy guarding a WR is around 10 yards away almost every time he catches the ball, there is a problem with the player. the few times Flacco threw his way and it went imcomplete was BECAUSE we were rolling coverage over there. they also threw it to boldin less when we rolled coverage his way.
however, they had Wrights number. Harbaugh even said he wanted to target wright, so almost every time wright was in single coverage against boldin, they threw his way.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
That’s part of the game I suppose, but if that’s the truth, why didn’t the Browns do something about it? The Ravens aren’t the only team that can game-plan. Attacking weaknesses is the way to win, right? Sun Tzu.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
I was also confused. Ryan was yelling at Wright on the sideline but I think he just had too much confidence in him.
The Browns are having a huge problem with adjustments and I don’t get it.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I guess you missed the part where I said they DID roll coverage boldin’s way but didn’t do it every play. with as many options as the ravens have with Heap, Mason, Housh, and Rice, you can’t afford to cover a guy like that on EVERY play.
yeah. last year everyone threw at Furrey and Brandon McDonald because they were our weaknesses last year and because of this, wright was able to look solid. this year, teams are focusing on him more and he is getting beat.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
I just think he doesn’t care. Dorn validated this by saying it’s what Wright says on his twitter basically.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Then the Ravens were just too much for the Browns. You can’t blame one player. You just can’t.
If the Browns couldn’t afford to help Wright with a receiver that he’s clearly struggling against, then they didn’t deserve or didn’t have what it takes to win. It’s a team game. Therefore the game wasn’t gift-wrapped. The Browns couldn’t cover Boldin because they could afford to draw coverage from the other Ravens’ receivers. In a way, all of the Ravens receivers helped Boldin get open and all of the Browns defenders contributed to Wright’s blown coverages.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
actually, outside of wright, they clearly had what it took to win. you keep saying its a team game, but there are only so many guys on a team. when the ravens have Heap, Housh, Mason, Rice, and Boldin on the field, how as a DC can you afford to constantly double on boldin? you do it sometimes, but doing it all the time is a risky gambit because then other guys can break free. the ravens were not too much for the browns, they were too much for eric wright. Outside of wright, the defense played an excellent game. you can’t fault a WHOLE defense because of one guy’s inability to cover. is it sheldon brown’s fault that Wright couldn’t stay on his man?
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Then why didn’t they bench Wright? I could see him getting beat on a few plays, but if he really was the sole reason for their loss, then they needed to do something. If he was their best option and they couldn’t afford to bench him, then they obviously didn’t have the talent to hang with the Ravens. If they had better options but simply didn’t do anything to adjust, then they were just stupid and didn’t deserve to win.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
You could be here all week arguing with bross and his circular logic.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Thanks for the warning. I have a feeling that you just saved me a dozen frustrating comments.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
not benching wright was a coaching decision I don’t agree with. that blame falls on the coaching staff. hopefully he gets chewed out by the coaches this week.
Eric Wright wasn’t their best option really, the browns are just very thin at CB. we only have 4 on our roster and one has minimal NFL experience.
Because of our lack of depth, Wright really put them in a pickle. they could have benched him, but then that leaves a guy with very little experience guarding one of your top 3 WRs and all of them can exploit a guy with little experience.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I appreciate the fact that you used “put them in a pickle”, but please stop arguing pointless stuff with one of the few decent and civil ravens fans that comes to our site.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
actually there was a point to this comment. wright sucked but the team didn’t have a ton of options with what to do. I understand the though process of why they didn’t bench him, because of the lack of depth. if this continues (teams picking on wright) it can be a serious issue b/c of the depth.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Wright has never played this poorly, I don’t think the coaches were ready for that from him to be honest. Anyone that says otherwise has perfect hindsight vision.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
It was a fluke. Only saw the 4th, but was there a lot of play action? In the higlightes Wright seemed so far from Boldin. Maybe he was thinking run most of time?
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Don’t know, but there was direct quotes from Wright where he admits to just playing awful and not knowing where his head was today.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
He owned up to it and hopefully he can bounce back. Too thin at DB to sustain performances like that every week.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
Blown coverages
Wright was not great but he was expecting inside help on 1 of those TD’s Boldin caught. There were a ton of mental errors committed by your secondary. Professionals take advantage of them.
Ravens One - September 27, 2010
he was not expecting inside help, he broke in the completely opposite direction. expecting inside help would be playing outside leverage and trying to funnel him inside, not breaking left when he breaks right. even with inside help, Boldin would have been open.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
I watched each of the TDs pretty closely. Each of them were isolated CB on WR coverages. The third TD was an all out blitz which included the safety Ward. The only way to beat that blitz was to complete over the top which is what happened on Wright. The second TD Wright was again solely responsible for boldin and broke to the sideline when Boldin cut to the middle. The safety Ward was the next nearest defender, but was guarding who I believe was the tight end.
On the first TD, the nearest help was Elam and its unclear to me if Elam should have been in better position. I would need to look closer and get more camera angles to really be sure.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
If they really tried to put Boldin on Wright island, Wright’s performance is more understandable. Still bad, but understandable.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I thought Ward was the next closest defender on the first TD. when they showed a replay from a camera angle at the back of the EZ, I saw #43 playing downfield, but on the area of the field to the right (from the offenses perspective) of the RT. I could be wrong however and maybe elam was closer.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Also, can you tell what coverages we are in?
rufio - September 27, 2010
Not sure on the first one. The 2nd and 3rd definitely looked like man coverage. The third one was all out blitz with corners solely responsible for the WR.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
Like our O-line did with your D-line and LB’s?
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
You were there for the game right? What did you see from Wright?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I didn’t think Wright played that poorly… It seemed like Boldin was having to make several catches in traffic. The first touchdown was a tip-toe in the back of the end-zone. The second he made in traffic. The third was the only play I can remember where he clearly smoked Wright.
There were several other jump balls and back-shoulder throws in the game too. If anything, I think you should be asking why Ryan wasn’t doubling Boldin, who the Ravens were clearly targeting all game. There were a few catches where he was wide open in zone coverage (not Wright’s responsibility).
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
I think they were targeting Wright rather than Boldin personally. And if you’re speaking about that huge wide open 25 yard catch or w/e, for some reason Wright was on him at the line an moved off into deep coverage for w/e reason. It was clearly a mental lapse by Wright. And whenever I saw Boldin in the endzone he looked very open, especially the one in the back of the endzone. That was more Flacco’s throw than Wright forcing him back there… personally.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
then you obviously have a very selective memory. go find tapes of the last touchdowns, he was WIDE OPEN. there was one play where there was no browns player within 10 yards…Wright wasn’t anywhere near him, he just got beat.
Actually, the plays where he was wide open, he was in man coverage. just because a guy is covering a WR and then gets beat so bad he stays in a ‘zone’ 10 yards behind the WR does NOT make it zone coverage.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
So sorry… I didn’t mean to insult you. I’m just tell you what I saw.
There were at least two catches (that I can remember) that Boldin had versus zone coverage.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
That’s what I was trying to tell you. The one where Wright was on him and backed WAY off, was not zone and you are probably thinking it was.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
No… I understand cushion. I played CB in high-school. I’m thinking of a few plays where Wright was covering the flat and released Boldin from his zone. Boldin was wide open as a result of the safeties coverage or lack thereof.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
There are even quotes of Wright having no clue what he did today.
The problem was much more Wright then Boldin’s ability or blown Safties,
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I don’t know. I think that’s too subjective for anyone to correctly call.
Boldin had a good game versus the Jets too. I think they’re a pretty good secondary. I think he should be given some credit. 3 touchdowns and 142 yards is hard to do in the NFL. I don’t care who you’re playing.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
no question its impressive. However, Jerome Harrison ran for 286 yards against KC last year and this year he has sucked so far. one game doesn’t prove anything. Just like what happened with Wright, KCs run defense was absolutely horrendous. Hugh Mcelhenny could have gotten off his rocking chair and run for 100 against them.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
If you guys want to blame everything on Wright and downplay Boldin, that’s fine. This is your blog and you can believe what you want. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
This argument has basically gotten blown out of proportion and everybody has taken a side. Boldin is good. He’s great. But Wright’s play today was just pathetic. He looked lost out there.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Meh, my argument has evolved into it was all Wright and not Boldin and that’s not what I wanted persay.
Boldin’s good but he looked amazing today because of Wright.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Boldin is a very good WR. Normally Wright is much better than he was today. This is easily the worst game I remember him playing in quite some time.
The first TD was a very good throw and catch, can’t fault the coverage too much on that one. The second and third, well, Boldin cut one way, and Wright cut the other. normally those plays are at least close.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know Boldin is good, I just don’t think he’s as good as he looked today.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
never said it was ALL on Wright. I actually said that Boldin’s performance was impressive, or did you just skip the first line just because you wanted to disagree with me?
Boldin is an excellent WR, however he would have not had as dominant a game if he was covered by someone else. he still played well, but he was the benefit of a lot of blown coverages.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
bross, the flaw in your logic here is that Boldin’s body of work is far superior to Harrison’s.
It’s also hard to compare the KC game with this game. The Browns lost this game primarily due to the poor play of one player whereas the entire KC defense played poorly last year against the Browns. Apples to oranges.
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
I never said they were the same player. i have said to this guy multiple times I think boldin is a good player.
It IS an apples to apples comparison. for a rushing D to be bad and a running back to go off, the whole front 7 has to play bad. however, for a WR to go off like this, it just has to be one player.
Boldin is a great player, but does this performance against a struggling CB prove he is one of the best in the league (which the ravens fans have argued)?
Its an impressive performance even when the CB is playing well, just like Harrison’s performance was impressive even though the D was that bad.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
100% untrue.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I agree.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
and sometimes, when a guy play press coverage and then the WR gets past him and then the QB throws it maybe a second later, it can look like the CB was in the flat…because the guy may not react quickly and therefore is still somewhat in the flat whereas the WR is 8-10 yards downfield. it happens ALL THE TIME>
bross09 - September 26, 2010
no on insulted me.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
Thanks, Browns have some pieces to build on but will still need a year or 2.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
You won’t blame me if I hope for 2…
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
thanks for the kind words. We’ve got some things in place, but I think you’re right that the one thing we sorely need is a franchise QB. Of course, most teams that lose a lot of games need one of those, so we’re hardly the only team in the market.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
Thanks. Always nice to hear good things from a rival fan rather than a troll.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Wow, good post from a raven fan. Somehow I have to remember that it’s not their fans fault that they took our team…this guy was prob a colts fan before that move…
Red-Right-88 - September 27, 2010
Edwards in for NYC. Let the drops rain (ha ha ha)
BuenosAires_Dawg - September 26, 2010
So I don’t know if I’m the only one here or not that thinks this but I find it odd that even though we had a considerable amount of penalties called against us that the refs were quite generous to us. We had some very nice spots and got away with a few calls.
Loved seeing Hillis tear it up though I died a bit inside knowing that he was sitting on my fantasy bench.
Also, I’m not saying that Wright is garbage all together… But he had an EPIC FAIL of a game today and I hope that he got it out of his system and gets back to playing decently or gets a nice reserved parking spot on the bench.
3PON Nemo - September 26, 2010
I was at the game, and I believe that the Browns would have been better off without the personal foul call/incident against the Ravens.
At that point, the Browns were still ahead and the Ravens didn’t seem motivated. When the Browns player pushed Heap and the Ravens were penalized for retaliating, the crowd went insane. I’ve never heard such loud boos in my life. On top of that, the players got angry and made that first down to spite the referees. The crowd and the players seemed to be energized after that.
BAL_Hawk - September 26, 2010
Anyone else think that Collinsworth is an idiotic jackass and that Miami just got robbed by that personal foul call?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I HATE Collinsworth. Ever since his HBO days.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
I’ve always hated Collinsworth. In part due to the fact that he was a Bungal. Mainly because he seems to think he knows it all, kinda arrogant. Admittedly, he’s been dead on in many of his insights. Doesn’t mean I’ve gotta like it, though.
dawgtribe - September 27, 2010
I am a huge Collinsworth fan, probably my favorite announcer.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
He’s a douche, he voice sounds terrible and he pisses me off especially with his overbearing bias to offensive players.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
rec Can’t stand the guy.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
He almost ruins Madden for me.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
He’s on Madden now? Haven’t played in a couple years. I’d kill myself if I had to listen to him say the same stuff all the time.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
He was Madden’s replacement.
Everything has says is on a loop. It’s terrible.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Yes, he has like 8 total generic statements that cycle constantly. Often their just plain dead wrong.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
So its sort of realistic?
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010
Well played, sir.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
Excellent.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
You guys are all wrong on this. Collinsworth is more insightful than any other color commentator in the past 10 years.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
Totally agree.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
I’m with you here. Also, I’m amazed he was able to almost completely get rid of his southern accent.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
I say y’all about 50 times a day. It drives me crazy to not type it.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
thank you so much for not typing it.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
I’m good with y’all. I used to work with someone who thought the plural form of you is you’uns. That drove me up a frickin’ wall.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Hand to God, I had a room mate who’s brother was called “Bo” by everyone. I always assumed his name was Bobby or Robert, something of the sort.
I asked one day, and I was told that he got the nickname “Bo” because his Dad called him Boy growing up and with his southern accent, it came out boy. Blew my mind. His name was Boy.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Came out "Bo"*
My bad.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
this is a pretty awesome story.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
you’uns is a whole other animal. and least y’all makes some sense as a contraction.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
Can we leave all foul words that come from western Pennsylvania out of this blog? Starting with Pittsburgh and adding you’uns (y’uns) to the list.
Chief WaDrew - September 27, 2010
I think Collinsworth is pretty good as well. As you said, he gives more insight than most analysts (although I’d have to rank Jaws up there with him).
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
The MNF crew is amazing.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Best MNF crew in as long as I can remember. I also like hearing from Jaws whether he’s calling a game or offering insight on PTI or somewhere else.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
I normally really like the Monday Night crew, but they were terrible last night. There were several calls they flat-out missed: Tirico exclaiming “Packers ball!” after the referee pointed to the Bears; Jaws urging the Packers to challenge a Forte fumble even though the Bears had recovered it; Gruden complaining about a false start call when the referee had clearly explained that the player was flagged for his “delayed reaction” to a defender jumping.
Chemo - September 28, 2010
Gruden has a case though. Usually, that goes against the Defense for provoking the Tackle. He didn’t just run up to the line like a LB, he took a huge jump into the neutral zone. Granted, the tackle knew what was going on and faked it but that call usually goes the other way.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
I actually thought that was a great call. I’m tired of lineman pretending to get drawn off.
Chemo - September 28, 2010
I’m honestly not a huge fan of the MNF crew. Tirico annoys me and the other two get excitable because of Tirico. It seems like a big cheer fest to me.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2010
This is the one fault I find. They exaggerate every positive thing 10 fold.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
ESPN in a nutshell.
woodsmeister - September 28, 2010
Ugh. I just watched a SC interview on the big three and I almost wanted to puke.
It sucks because it looks like Lebron has corrupted DWade.
SpecialBrownie - September 28, 2010
I’m not a big fan of jaws, he knows what he’s talking about, but he always seems to get so excited over little things.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
I really like Jaws as a commentator. From what I remember of Collinsworth, he is good. I just don’t pay attention to who is commentating much and can’t really pick out a ton where I remember him commentating.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I kinda like Gruden.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I like Gruden too, but he does the same thing jaws does where he gets really excited by seemingly insignificant things.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
I feel like Gruden’s things are more significant. I like that both of them at least talk a watered down version of Xs and Os sometimes.
They need to quit arguing though, it makes me uncomfortable.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I think Gruden is only average. He could be so much better, but I think he’s being “coached” by the MNF producers to pump up the stars and not talk about too much strategy and coachspeak that might bore the fans who aren’t hardcore football fans (which is what MNF does). I wish he’d break down plays like he showed when he did those QB sessions before the draft — that was awesome and very insightful. That’s the kind of analysis that I want to hear from announcers duing a game.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
He absolutely is being coached by producers/etc. I don’t think you are ever going to get a whole lot of that play breakdown from anyone exactly because of what you mentioned.
rufio - September 27, 2010
i think gruden stinks. love tirico and jaws, but i feel like gruden really weighs them down. he’s all cliches, not enough real analysis, which reeks, to your point, of producer coaching.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
collinsworth may be the best color guy in all of sports.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
You know this guy is like that old robe you have hangin around the house. You love it, your wife hates it, but its always there day after day. That’s this guy.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I think I like him too.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Because he was an orange tiger.
You can’t help but like him. It’s your instinct…
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Huh? He didn’t go to Clemson.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
No, but he was a Bengal.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
You’re just trying to make a Tigers joke aren’t you?
emily522 - September 26, 2010
No, just that you’re a fan of orange tigers and he played for a team that are also orange tigers…
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Haha, fail :)
shep615 - September 27, 2010
I think that makes about 6 or 7 of then now, Collinsworth fans that is.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
Ya, I’m a fan of his so add another to that total.
BrownDawg1409 - September 26, 2010
He’s one of the best
dgcambridge - September 27, 2010
Fine, fine, I can see your numbers are growing. We can probably safely estimate a grand total of about 15, give or take 1, maybe 2.
Simmsinns - September 27, 2010
Wow, Collinsworth is one of the most annoying in my opinion, nasaly, and a bungle.
Red-Right-88 - September 27, 2010
I used to dislike him, but over the past season he has really won me over. Smart and he doesn’t mind poking fun at himself. What else can you want from an announcer?
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
He also, apparently, pisses off both SB and Brownie’s Year, so he’s got that going for him as well.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
HA!
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
The Brits. One of the major networks need to hire them.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
No Limeys please.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Flag, those dudes are awesome.
Adrock2099 - September 26, 2010
I like those guys too. Said it before.
My bro in law is a limey and I can’t stand the accent. Maybe one of the guys would be fine, but not 3.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
I love the accent. Cockney is fun to listen to…unless you want to understand the person. I don’t mind the traditional british accent though.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
From what I know, they have a London accent. Which is easier to understand. There are much thicker British accents that i’m used to hearing. So I’m done with it all.
Brownie's Year - September 27, 2010
yeah. the general london accent isn’t bad. it is one of the more classic and more common brit accents. are you thinking of the accent where they say a bunch of random words? I think thats cockney (which also originated in london, but the working class east end).
bross09 - September 27, 2010
You realize how much the NFL announcers dumb it down for American audience when you listen to those guys. Almost blew my mind last year the difference in coverage when I had a British stream for a game.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
I like Collinsworth.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
He isn’t as bad as shannon sharpe…ahhh that guy drives me nuts. He had to say that Hillis is a Fullback…grrrrr.
Red-Right-88 - September 27, 2010
yeah. there was something else about hillis that he said that also annoyed me.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
sharpe
but sharpe did come out a couple years ago and said the police need to show up on payday for the browns because they were comitting robbery by imitating a football team…that was right on the money at the time…and being 0-3, might still be…
JDawg in Cbus - September 27, 2010
so, you have to think: is it worth it to start haden at CB from now on, or hope that eric wright bounces back?
davus - September 26, 2010
It’s not that he’ll bounce back. It’s whether or not he cares about playing for Cleveland anymore.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Ok. The guy I’m playing is done with 87 points. I got Ronnie Brown in and Aaron Rodgers yet to start. I need 26 points for the win.
Of course, if I had had Hillis in our Miles Austin had scored more than 2 points, this wouldn’t be a problem at all right now.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
No doubt Rodgers will win it for you.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
If Ronnie Brown can get like 9 or 10 points I’d feel a lot better.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Mark Sanchez is getting pretty good.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Too bad Kyle Wilson sucks.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Meh, I think his inner-USC will come through sooner or later, at which time his life as a successful NFL quarterback will cease to exist.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
Man, I knew this late game was gunna suck, but jeez.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Ronnie Brown, run it in for a TD. Please…
emily522 - September 26, 2010
BTW, Simmsinns smoked my ass today by like 50 points. Very embarrassing.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
I saw that haha!
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I am getting smoked too. I didn’t set my rosters, plus my team is sucking right now. My opponent also had vick and a few other players who had monster games. I think I will be smoked by 50 if I am lucky.
bross09 - September 26, 2010
I want to be in the DBN league for sure next year.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
*Unofficial.
We don’t associate ourselves with the DBN league.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
that’s what all the second class citizens say…
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
We’re the Unofficial league. But it’s still fun.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Oops that’s what I meant.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
We’ll be happy to have you. I think I might have to cut it town to 12 players total though. 14 is just… well the other players know what I’m talking about. Saying the talent pool is shallow is a big understatement.
Simmsinns - September 26, 2010
Very. My bench is horrible.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Leading the league this week with 134pts baby!
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
thanks…
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Vick has turned out to be quite the addition from FA for me. He and Peterson tallied up 60+ points alone.
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
and i got some duds…plus I forgot to edit my roster. either way, I got destroyed. it seems like all my players are sucking right now. or maybe I just have a shit team
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I tied 152.5 to 152.5. We were, of course, the leading scorers in the league. SO FRUSTRATING.
Chemo - September 28, 2010
Ronnie Brown has 1 point. Well thank God for him.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
Ronnie just got blasted!
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Indeed.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Great, Tony Dungy. There’s another one that doesn’t belong on TV. He speaks and moves like he has anxiety.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
I don’t remember Wright ever being that bad. Then again, I can’t think of any CB who has gotten that victimized routinely in the same game. Usually. a team at any level, let alone at the pro level, would make some sort of adjustment (moving him over to Mason or Housh didn’t help either)
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010
What kind of inflection are you trying to use?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
He italicized ‘that’, but could have come out with essentially the same meaning if he had emphasized remember, ever, or bad.
However, if he had emphasized the name Wright, it would effectively mean, “Chirst, I think I just saw Terry Cousin in a Browns uniform again!”
JustBob - September 27, 2010
I know we played pretty well offensively, but I think this game is a great reason to make a huge push for Kolb.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
I agree with this so long as our first rounder is off the table.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Not even for a first round swap?
With the way Vick is playing, I don’t want to do this anymore.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Of course.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
Much like last week, I feel like when we scored, it was almost in spite of Wallace.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
I thought Wallace was okay.
He managed to avoid the back-breaking mistake that has killed us so far.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
at the same time, he still can’t get a deep ball in bounds, much less in play. He takes forever to make decisions. He ran out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage at least twice today. He pitched the ball to empty space. He’s certainly an upgrade over anything in recent memory, but he’s still not very good.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
That was a hideous deep ball. It looked like it landed behind the bench.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
I don’t know if anyone else watched the Eagles-Jags game, but I wouldn’t trade Delhomme for David Garrard. God Lord he is a freaking mess right now.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
He looked awful.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I feel bad for MJD, the entire defense was 5 yards off the ball. They were begging Garrard to throw.
The INT he threw at the end was a pass that Samuel had almost picked off twice before, yet he still threw the damn thing again.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
hard to believe just 2 or 3 years ago he looked pretty damn good.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
…and he seemed to have an extreme reluctance to stretch the field. 7.8 yards per completion is Brady Quinn-Like (even worse actually than BQ at his worst last year). Wallace was able to limit mistakes passing the ball, but there is more to being a QB than not throwing INTs ans always throwing to the checkdowns.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
What the hell do you expect?
Sanchez: 10-21, 74 yards, 0-0 TD-INT
Palmer: 16-35, 167 yards, 0-0 TD-INT
Wallace: 18-24, 141 yards, 1-0 TD-INT
Looks pretty good to me, especially when you consider that the Browns’ WR’s may blow.
If we get a QB that protects the ball, hands off, and makes the easy throws that the defense gives him, I will be stoked. This offense will be fine with a QB that does just that. I have a feeling that Wallace has a better chance of doing that than Delhomme.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I agree that he is fine for now. I don’t mind for the short term a guy who can pass like this if we can just pound it out. I just don’t think we will win a ton of games like this (but that something I more worry about towards the future). There are some holes in wallace’s game in this area, but I am content with his play for this season
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I would like to see Delhomme in a game where we can actually run the ball/where the gameplan is to actually run the ball.
rufio - September 27, 2010
That is a fair point.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
Delhomme had one of the best rushing attacks in the NFL in Carolina and was still an interception machine.
BAL_Hawk - September 27, 2010
…for one year.
rufio - September 27, 2010
What’s funny is that the Ravens’ secondary was suppose to be suspect this season and the front seven elite. So far, the secondary has played lights-out, and in the game yesterday, the front seven looked suspect.
I’m not worried because I attribute the rushing success of the Browns totally to their offensive line. The Ravens underestimated the Browns. They thought it would be an easy game, but the Browns smacked them in the mouth.
BAL_Hawk - September 27, 2010
agree with all of this. the running out of bounds is aggravating.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
I am not convinced Kolb will be a franchise QB.
rufio - September 27, 2010
Neither am I. But I think there’s enough there to warrant a high second rounder.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
I would maybe give two thirds, or a third and two later picks.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I would give a 3rd and a later round.But i would in no way give up a 2nd rounder for him
Brownsfan4ever - September 27, 2010
Knowing two of our recent second rounders were guys like MoMass and TJ Ward, I’m not in favor of that trade.
Obviously if Kolb panned out I’d be dead wrong, and there’s no guarantee any future second round pick will pan out either.
He hasn’t shown enough for me to think he’s worth being that expensive.
Simmsinns - September 27, 2010
This.
emily522 - September 27, 2010
agree with this here
Brownsfan4ever - September 27, 2010
I’m not sure if anyone in the league is convinced, either. But I’d be willing to take a shot with a 2nd round pick if H&H believe that he has a good chance of becoming one.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
1. I was blown away at how well we played today. I fully expected to get blown away today. That being said, too bad we couldn’t finish strong.
2. I know everyone wants to run Eric Wright out of town, but my question is why didn’t we switch something up? Switch him to Housh or Mason. Even if you say they would have just thrown to them, I would have liked to have seen it. Wright is a goat, but so is the coaching staff. I don’t think Wright is nearly as bad as he was today. I expect a strong bounce back next week. I would love to see Haden get some one on one with Chad Johnson (I’m not calling him the other name this week.)
3. Marcus Benard’s absence was a killer. We have no one to get to the passer. Ryan is forced to bring the house which puts our DB’s on islands. The Ravens were missing Gaither and it didn’t matter a bit.
4. Anyone else think that Oher should have been ejected? That looked like a punch to me.
5. I would be ECSTATIC if we get that kind of QB play all season. Make the easy throws, don’t turn the ball over and don’t kill us. Game ball for Wallace.
6. Chris hits the nail on the head. Hillis was running like a man possessed, why not give him the ball on 3rd and 2? If he gets stuck, go for it with Hillis on 4th. Only real offensive playcall I had an issue with.
7. Cribbs was awesome as a WR today. I have been in the “he isn’t a WR camp” forever, but he is really starting to look like a real WR. That being said, Cribbs was the ONLY WR to catch a pass today. That is so sad.
8. Joe Haden’s pass break-up was a thing of beauty. How often do you see a DB use his off hand to grab the hip of a WR and draw a flag on that play? His hands attack the football so well. I am officially on the bandwagon. Who’s driving this thing? Golan?
9. I added this to the game thread, but it bears repeating. I think it was displacedbuckeye who said he didn’t mind the Watson personal foul. Totally agree. The Browns needed that. The Ravens have been the bullies in this relationship for what seems like forever. Watson punching back, along with the ass whipping we gave their defense up front was a fresh breath of air. Sometimes you need to punch the bully in the mouth. Now we need to put them away.
10. I don’t fault Rob Ryan on the zero blitz TD. We needed to get to the passer, the Ravens just picked it up perfectly. Sometimes it just comes down to that.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
That’d be me. He’s the real deal. 100% effort 100% of the time. I’ll be stunned if he’s not a top three corner in the league in three years.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I am really excited because you can see him getting better from week to week. The pass break up in the fourth is a move that you see veterans struggle with.
His hands are awesome as well. Always attacks the ball. I am so pleased to say that I was so wrong about this kid so far.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
AND what else? Come on, admit it.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I have made my feelings on this well known. So instead of hijacking a thread with a childish argument of “I’m more right than you” I will go ahead and stick to talking about the Browns.
Call me crazy.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Crazy.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
Um, what?
I meant admit that we robbed the Broncos on the BQ trade.
Wtf were you talking about?
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
That.
I don’t judge trades after 6 weeks.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
The final verdict on the Quinn trade is in. Normally I would agree with you.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
How the hell isn’t that about the Browns and I just think you’re stubborn and don’t want to admit it so you try to turn it and call me a child.
Stupid.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
He can tackle. That is big for me.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
It is so nice to no longer see a WR make a catch, sidestep an arm tackle then run for 10 more yards.
The physicality that Brown, Haden and Ward have brought to this secondary has been huge.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Yeah, you can really see him progress from week to week. Very exciting given our lackluster history taking skill players in the draft.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
I am not that sold on him yet. He could become Revis or he could end up being a decent #1 CB. He is looking good so far.
Now about that pass rusher…
rufio - September 27, 2010
Franchise QB and #1 WR first.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
I’d take whoever was top on the board at the time.
rufio - September 27, 2010
This team still has so many needs that leaving the best player available on the board when we draft is inexcusable.
woodsmeister - September 27, 2010
They did and put Ward on Boldin. Ward then shut Boldin down.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I saw one play.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Exactly. You only saw him once after that and Ward even took care of that one.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Mason and Housh both made plays with Wright covering them. Flacco knew where Wright was on every play and targeted him.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
@B19K… I like most your comments…
I liked about 70% of what I saw but I think Wallace needs to be able to throw deep better and he needs to get more on the ball. There were a couple of weak throws that I thought should have been picks.
Hills = TOUGH X TOUGH X TOUGH. Did you see the look on the faces of some of those guys when he hit them? They looked like they couldn’t believe it. It was like they got hit in the head with a sack of nails. Smashmouth football. I love it.
I totally agree. He looked so much better. He is definitely playing the position smarter now. I especially noticed how he was coming back to Seneca when he scrambled giving him another option which resulted in some big gains. He is one of only two playmakers on the offense and that is sad.
I think the rest of the team felt the same way and the coaching staff by the looks of how they were talking to him on the sideline. I think that some enforcement was needed.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
One more thing you didn’t mention. We have to give some kudos to Mangini who came in with the game plan to run straight at them with the power running game. That was the right call given The Ravens speed on defense.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
Very true.
Most teams don’t like to play tough against the Ravens, but I really like how we punched them in the mouth. It may have been a loss, but it is a loss that the Ravens will feel for days.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
so we should go out and hit people in the mouth?
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Frankly, I don’t know how they can justify not ejecting him. That was textbook. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if he gets a suspension, and I expect a healthy fine.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
Hm, we say this each game now, it feels like.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I fully expect him to get a fine.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
One other thing. I too have been very critical of Cribbs as a wide receiver, but I was pleasantly surprised by his play today.
I know I say this every week, and there’s no such thing as moral victories, blah blah blah, but I really don’t care about the record as long as they play well, and today they played pretty damn well.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
Ditto for me regarding Cribbs. He’s been a pleasant surprise.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
And kudos to RDC for refusing to not believe in JC.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
JC = Josh Cribbs
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
…That could’ve turned out bad.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Ditto…ditto to NTN above and ditto with the kudos. I really believed the cribbs wouldn’t be a good WR and might only be able to work in the slot. so far, I am wrong.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I knew Josh wouldn’t let me down. Way overdue on buying that jersey, too.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 28, 2010
Yea I have dogged Cribbs as a WR, but he is looking legitimate. I just hope the Special Teams struggles aren’t because his focus went elsewhere.
Roger Dorn - September 26, 2010
It seems to me that when the ball is actually kicked to Cribbs, the coverage unit is getting there en masse about the same time as the ball. I don’t think Cribbs is playing any different, he just not getting any space. Maybe someone with a Tivo can tell me if that impression is right or wrong.
JustBob - September 27, 2010
I have gotten the same impression. I think our return units may not be executing their blocks as well as last year, or teams are better at getting to the returner than last year…or a combination of both.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Same here. I never thought he’d be a servicable WR but he’s proving me wrong, and I’m quite happy about that.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
3 losses by a combined, what, 12 points?
We are close. We need more talent to be consistently good, but we are competitive, which is more than can be said about many years of the new Browns.
I still think we should use Josh to run the ball more, maybe at the expense of using him as a WR, but he is looking good.
rufio - September 27, 2010
We are quite close. We have actually build a foundation of the positions that you should start with. Adding the playmakers comes last in my view. Unfortunately this still includes identifying a viable QB.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
I think you get the QB whenever and however you can. I do agree that we have some nice talent in nice places. I still think we need more youth in the front 7. Tuba is solid but we need more than one ok player up there. A RT would be great as well.
rufio - September 27, 2010
It would be nice if Lauvao could ever get healthy so we could see if he can take the job at RG.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
He’s young and has looked solid when he’s played. Plus, OGs are much less valuable to Mangini than the OTS and C. We have 2/3 of the most valuable line positions.
rufio - September 27, 2010
add another good draft and some solid FAs (including a #1 WR and a solid QB in those) and I think this team can be a playoff contender in a year or two…
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I agree the coaching staff should have adjusted better to wright. They did rotate him onto other guys and he was exposed. I think the coaching staff was in a bind because they felt like something needed to be done, but not much could be done with just 3 CBs with significant NFL experience.
1-4 I agree with.
5. I am lukewarm on Seneca’s play. he limited mistakes throwing the ball but he was mostly going to checkdowns and quick throws. He did make mistakes on the ground with the botched pitch and running out of bounds a couple times. He was still decent but hillis would get my game ball.
Agree with the rest too (man, you have a lot of good points today) especially the haden bandwaon and 7 (I too thought cribbs would never be an NFL WR)
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Only thing I might disagree with is the QB play. It was good today, but I don’t know that we can win that way week in and week out. It’d be nice to have a QB that could hit someone deep. I guess this is still really a “rebuilding” year though, so that kind of play isn’t bad.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
we won 4 games last year w/, essentially, you playing qb. wallace looked johnny u out there yesterday by comparison. the qb play is fine.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
Five games. We beat Buffalo in week 5.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
I think he was thinking of the last 4 games that we won in a row.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
you’re right, i was referring to the last 4 games … but golan is right, too. didn’t anderson go, like, 2-of-17 in the buffalo win?
i repeat: the qb play is hall of fame caliber this year by comparison.
DontCallMeJoey - September 27, 2010
Which is why we look competitive. But the QB play is still not good compared to the rest of the league.
rufio - September 28, 2010
agree to agree
DontCallMeJoey - September 28, 2010
great post, but I disagree on the Watson thing. if you want to punch the bully in the mouth, do it by your play (see Hillis, Peyton), not by sacrificing 15 yds to a top-tier defense.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
I missed the game yesterday. Pittsburgh, of course, was the only one televised here. Peyton was amazing watching the highlight reels of the game. He is one hard nosed runner. I am loving the trade of Quinn, no doubt.
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
I just watched the Mangini’s post game press conference. God, he seems so disappointed. Losing like this over and over is just gut wrenching.
Oh, and thank you Denver for one of the best RB’s we’ve ever had.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
They did do this and that was the first time they got catches. I agree, as horrible as Wright was, where were the adjustments? But this is one they tried – didn’t really work though.
Totally agree, love the attitude there.
Overall I love how the guys played today. I just don’t understand how Wright was always 10 yards away from the guy he was supposed to be covering flat-footed and clapping his hands together.
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010
Also did any WR besides Cribbs have a catch or even a target today? MoMass and Stuckey were invisible. Not that I’m criticizing the effort of the offense at all because I loved the way they played, but you still have to throw a little to your WRs
HenryDawg - September 26, 2010
Just TEs as far as I could tell. That is a big problem with the offense right now. No WRs that can get open or catch.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
Not sure about targets, but Cribbs was the only WR to have a catch.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
MoMass had only one target. 23 out of Seneca’s 24 targets went to RBs (or FBs), TEs or Cribbs. Even against KC, he seemed to go more to the RBs, TEs and Cribbs. I don’t have the game tape however to see if MoMass was actually open downfield and he was just going for the checkdowns.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
It’s funny because at the beginning of the season I was hearing that this is how Delhomme was going to be playing.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
well, for all we know it would be.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
95% of Seneca’s targets were to Waton, Cribbs, and Hillis. I don’t know how often MoMass was open though. Seneca does seem to favor throwing to Watson, Cribbs, and the RB out of the backfield so far. I believe MoMass has only 5 targets in the last 2 games (and my guess is he has gotten open more than that, but thats just a guess)
bross09 - September 27, 2010
I distinctly remember one play where it looked like a WR was wide open running deep across the middle of the field, but because of the angle I couldn’t tell if there was a safety back there.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
If he looked at all open, it probably should have been thrown. In HS guys are wide open. In college, they’re open. In the NFL you have to throw them open.
rufio - September 27, 2010
In fairness the play in question did end up being a first down pass, I just think it could have been a TD.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
I think Steve Buerlein was trying to explain that and how the windows are smaller (by positioning himself closer and closer to the other announcer)
bross09 - September 27, 2010
It would be interesting to find out if and how many times he passed up WRs deeper for the shorter routes. supposedly he has the strongest arm of our QBs but he seems the most reluctant to use it.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Sweet catch by Marshall
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Braylon caught a 67 yard TD pass.
My God.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
The football gods mock us again…
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
If he played for any other team in the NFL he wouldn’t be playing right now.
StuckInPa - September 26, 2010
That’s not true. I don’t really think there is anything special about the Jets that makes them different from most teams. They sat him one quarter, which is what most teams probably would have done. They weren’t allowed to suspend him for the game because of the CBA — the league has to do that.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
I agree with you here. Standard procedure is to wait for the legal stuff to work itself out, then let the league hand down the punishment.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
They couldn’t have suspended him but they could have just not played him. Not sure if that would be a punishment for Braylon or not.
rufio - September 27, 2010
by the CBA that could be considered a punishment, so they didn’t want to open that can of worms.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
But not starting him and sitting him only a quarter was ok by the CBA? Doesn’t make sense to me.
rufio - September 27, 2010
He was helped by a DB slipping on the turf that was covering the infield. What an awful field.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
COME ON MIAMI! 3RD AND 2 ON THE GOAL LINE. GIVE IT TO RONNIE TO GET A TD. UGGGHHHHH.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
haha sorry.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
So far, Rodgers needs 24 points for me to win.
emily522 - September 26, 2010
I have a feeling that it’s gunna be a high scoring game tommorrow.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
Man I need Rodgers to have a dud game to win in my fantasy league… go figure that the guy I played had freakin’ Anquan Boldin on his team which netted him 40-something points in our league. Oh the irony….
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
Question: Why do you think Davis got the ball so little when Hillis was obviously tired and needed rest on a few plays. I’m thinking that they were afraid he was going to cough it up.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
I’m just thinking they were either hesitant like they are with Harrison or that we are now thin in the position and if Davis got hurt we were screwed for in game depth.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
Ah… an injury there would be devastating. But I was kind of worried about Hillis getting injured given the hits he was administering to the dirty birds… that would really be a loss. But you gotta play him.
Brownsyup - September 26, 2010
He’s built like a rock. Not once was I worried about him getting injured.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I think he got banged up pretty good early. That knock on his knee looked rough.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
Indeed.
SpecialBrownie - September 26, 2010
I don’t think it was obvious Hillis was tired. maybe you can make that assumption because he played so much but he didn’t really seem to look tired.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
What the hell. I went out for a smoke and it’s still 95 degrees. BS!
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
At least the Sunday night game has been good this week. Last weeks game was over when the teams took the field.
golanbatrac - September 26, 2010
It looks like you’re not going to get enough points to overtake me in our matchup. I had a good lead but I was worried that Tomlinson would get a couple TD’s and the Jets D would score a bunch of points.
I’m the high scorer in the league right now but other have people playing Monday night so it may not stay that way. But I needed those points because I was near the bottom in total points coming in to this weekend.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
I got smoked. Schaub had a terrible day, and the 49ers D got demolished by the chiefs(!), my terrible RB depth did the rest.
notthatnoise - September 26, 2010
I had Schuab in another league as well.
I sit him when he goes for 500, I play him when he goes for 200. I need a new magic 8 ball. I wonder if I can have Phil’s?
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
I don’t think you want Phil’s, his seems defective.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
I thought I could pull a little closer than I did, but once the game turned into a shootout, I didn’t have a chance.
I’ve hit triple digits every week and I’m top three in the league in points scored. I also have a losing record. Hoping rufio loses this week. Two games out in week three is no where to be.
golanbatrac - September 27, 2010
I need a strong performance by GB’s defense to overtake you.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
INT!! BOOOOOOOO
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
HAHA Rex dump the bucket on a player? Never seen that before.
Brownie's Year - September 26, 2010
I know most hate him, but I freaking love Rex Ryan.
Bernie19Kosar - September 26, 2010
I don’t mind him at all. He’s just like his brother, who most everyone around here loves.
Buckeye Brad - September 26, 2010
One criticism is his lack of control, (i.e. Edwards, that one reporter chick ect…)
But if he can win on a consistent basis, nothing else matters.
Simmsinns - September 27, 2010
I don’t blame him for Edwards being a complete dumbass. At some point in time Edwards needs to grow up, take responsibility as a man and start acting like a grown-up.
That isn’t Ryan’s bad IMO.
For the reporter chick, I have my own personal beliefs that are probably against the new DBN guidelines.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
there is no excuse for how they treated that reporter. I don’t care what she was wearing, whether she was “asking for it” or what, she didn’t make them treat her that way.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
She didn’t seem to bothered by it.
I don’t think reporters should be in the locker room at all.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I don’t see how you can blame Edwards’ DUI on Ryan. The players are all grown men and they should know how to behave, so you can’t blame the coach for their problems off the field. And the coach can’t follow around all 53 players on the team to make sure they’re not doing something stupid.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
I’m not sure if your last sentence is referencing the reporter thing or not, but weren’t the reports that the coaches were encouraging it and even taking part in it?
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
I think he was just talking about Edwards’ DUI
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
Yes.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
I actually agree, I wouldn’t blame him for Edwards either. Ryan isn’t supposed to be their baby sitter. I was just mentioning that criticism, which specifically read on Yahoo! Sports just the other day, (by Cole or Silver).
I lean toward the second part of my comment, if he can win important games, I wouldn’t mind if locker room is like a three ring circus.
Simmsinns - September 27, 2010
Sometimes control can be a bad thing. Ever work for a micromanager? Its a productivity killer. I think Ryan encourages his players to be bigger than they are. Of course sometimes that means you have assholes like BE. The main thing is that your players trust you when you do tell them what to do.
HenryDawg - September 27, 2010 via mobile
Browns Loss
at a certain point it’s up to Mangini and his staff to get a win. yea he’s not responsible for the 54 man roster – but other teams are winning (Kansas City) and he isn’t. either win of go back to being a coordinator.
no more excuses
csampson - September 27, 2010
Wright says the right things, at least.
JulioBernazard - September 27, 2010
It is good to hear him owning up.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
Wright says the right things, at least.
JulioBernazard - September 27, 2010
Not only did he say the right thing, he even said it twice!
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
Maybe it was just an off day for him? Let’s see if Cincy focuses on him next week and how he responds.
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
Of the 5 winless teams, the Browns may be the best.
palcal - September 27, 2010
So we will have the 5th pick in the draft? :)
Red-Right-88 - September 27, 2010
not overly comforting.
Dawg Nuts - September 27, 2010
49ers
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
I agree.
Buckeye Brad - September 27, 2010
They looked pretty awful yesterday. We should have beaten the Chiefs. The 49ers were trashed by the Chiefs.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
The transitive property does not apply to sports teams and wins and losses.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I always like to do that though.
SpecialBrownie - September 27, 2010
Point is we have been competitive in every game and the 49ers have not.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
That is a fair point.
rufio - September 27, 2010
they are more talented then us, but they might be playing the worst of any of the winless teams
bross09 - September 27, 2010
You haven’t seen Carolina then.
Bernie19Kosar - September 27, 2010
thats true. Forgot Carolina was still winless. yeah, they are playing pretty terrible too.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
im not sticking up for wright at all. but with 0 PASS RUSH there is not 1 corner in the league that can shut a #1 wideout down..wright played terrible, but if benard is on the field its a whole different game
cchaffee20 - September 27, 2010
I’m with you, a good pass rush does much more to stop an offense than a good corner.
notthatnoise - September 27, 2010
Good point, note the first play of the game where Roths bull rush almost led to a pick 6
HenryDawg - September 27, 2010 via mobile
Mark Sanchez stats:
6 TD – 0 INT
46 Comp/76 Attempts
Just saying, seems a lot of us have underestimated him thus far.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
Yes! I even went so far as to drop him from my fantasy team after the first week. Now I am cursing him!
Kimble_79 - September 27, 2010
It’s a long season. I’ll be surprised if he holds up that form after getting beat up a little bit.
browndawgbacker - September 27, 2010
I dropped Sanchez for Alex Smith… I think I may have to reverse that.
emily522 - September 27, 2010
58% complete* in an offense where he has to complete 15ish throws a game? Sounds like Peyton Manning.
*Sanchez is actually 46/79 according to ESPN.
rufio - September 27, 2010
The 76 was a typo. Thanks.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
He has a great OL too
HenryDawg - September 27, 2010 via mobile
NFL.com has a great pic of Hillis hitting Suggs while dragging Thomas, Lewis, Ngata. It’s up for pic of the week, week 3. Not trying to advertise but it’s a nasty pic of Hillis going to work in Baltimore.
browndawgbacker - September 27, 2010
Link please
rufio - September 27, 2010
Here you go.
JulioBernazard - September 27, 2010
Nice.
rufio - September 27, 2010
I want to find the clip of Hillis smashing into the Baltimore safety and pushing him back for another 5 yards. This after Hillis had already broken a tackle, got tripped up and regained his footing.
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
This.
StuckInPa - September 27, 2010
It’s on the NFL.com video tab in the game center.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
Thanks!
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
Link-Peyton Hills 25 Yard Run
Monsters of the Midway - September 27, 2010
The Bills released Trent Edwards aka Quinn 2.0.
emily522 - September 27, 2010
Trent Edwards is a Brady Quinn wannabe.
Roger Dorn - September 27, 2010
Ouch.
emily522 - September 27, 2010
hahaha. god, thats like the worst insult you can give.
bross09 - September 27, 2010
Nice and painful. Rec.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 28, 2010
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