It's only May, but that doesn't mean we can't start getting excited about Cleveland Browns football. Besides, it doesn't look like the other professional sports teams in the city are going to accomplish a whole lot this year. The media was able to attend offseason training activities (OTA) today, and several reports have flowed in from around the web. Here is a cliff notes version of the reports, with the sources listed at the bottom...
BROWNS OTA REPORT - MAY 19, 2010
- Good News on the Quarterbacks: According to the OBR, the quarterbacks did quite well in front of the media. Jake Delhomme was accurate during his 7-on-7 drill and he thrived in the red zone drill by throwing four touchdown passes (two of them to WR Brian Robiskie); the other two scores were thrown to tight ends. Seneca Wallace (showing his athleticism with a rollout) and Colt McCoy also had positive reviews.
- Cautiously Optimistic: The offense "was ahead of the defense" today, but as Mike Holmgren points out, without pads on, the ball should rarely be touching the ground. Grossi reports that he didn't even see a single drop by any receiver. Translation: there should be a natural advantage to the offense in OTA's.
- Rogers Not Practicing: DL Shaun Rogers was present in Berea but did not practice as he was still getting treatment for the broken leg he suffered last season.
- Starting Units: With RB Jerome Harrison sitting out of OTA's (as well as the rest of the team's remaining RFA's), rookie Montario Hardesty saw action with the first-team offense. The starting players at cornerback were Eric Wright and Sheldon Brown, with Joe Haden being a substitute.
- Safety Help: ESPN reports that the Browns' rookie safeties, T.J. Ward and Larry Asante, were getting beat over the middle in pass coverage. With Elam sitting out, the rookie duo saw reps with the first team.
- Gocong on the Inside: According to Grossi, during team drills, LB Chris Cocong mostly lined up on the inside, while LB Scott Fujita was on the outside. The two switched spots here and there, but Fujita said the versatility is necessary to throw a curveball at opponents.
- Suisham a Threat to Dawson? According to Mangini, "We have to get the roster to 80 by the time training camp starts," he said. "When restricted guys sign and rookies sign, we have to release someone. We have Reggie Hodges here, right now." Grossi notes that Suisham struggled getting long range on his kickoffs.
- Rob Ryan is Back: I'll quote Grossi's point here in full, because it provides the lead in to a quote from defensive coordinator Rob Ryan:
There was a collision between tight end Robert Royal and cornerback Coye Francies that looked worse than it actually was. For a moment, it looked like both players were injured. Both got up gingerly but neither appeared seriously hurt. The collision caused an incompletion, prompting defensive coordinator Rob Ryan to bark, "Bout time we play some defense."
- Jersey Numbers for Rookies: This was pointed out by ESPN: Colt McCoy is No. 12, Joe Haden is No. 40, Montario Hardesty is No. 31, Cliff Geathers is No. 97, Shawn Lauvao is No. 66 and Carlton Mitchell is No. 18.
- OTA Pictures: For more pictures of the Browns' OTA, just click on the image of Delhomme and Mack to the right.
Sources for the Reports Above
It’s still very early, but its good to hear that Jake looked crisp on his passes.
Kimble_79 - May 19, 2010
I would love to see him have a bounce back year in Cleveland.
Simmsinns - May 19, 2010
Most obvious comment of the day.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 20, 2010
You’d think, but a lot of people don’t give the him much, and for good reason… he throws a lot of interceptions.
Simmsinns - May 20, 2010
I’m hoping that the safeties getting beat is in direct relation to the OTA offense being better than defense.
allovertheplace - May 19, 2010
Try not to look too much into the reports at this stage, positive or negative.
danvail - May 19, 2010
Not that it’s not fun to read.
danvail - May 19, 2010
Also think of it as being good for them. They are not trying to defend college guys any longer with a college QB. They are getting their first taste of the NFL with a pro QB at the helm. They will learn from their mistakes.
Kimble_79 - May 19, 2010
That probably has more to do with neither of them being particularly good coverage
The Licensed Pessimist - May 19, 2010
A licensed pessimist would say that after the first OTA.
Roger Dorn - May 19, 2010
One practice and they’re already busts! That didn’t take long.
Buckeye Brad - May 19, 2010
Don’t tell him that Veikune was lining up with the 1s according to the PD. Or that Robiskie looked good.
rufio - May 20, 2010
thats what you get with tony grossi.
jaws. - May 20, 2010
I hate Grossi, but I am guessing he knows what a good catch looks like at this stage of his career.
rufio - May 20, 2010
He had all of last year watching the Browns’ passing “attack” to forget what a good catch – or any catch – looks like.
JustBob - May 20, 2010
Veikune and Robiksie turning into starters would be hilarious.
Roger Dorn - May 20, 2010
Yay!
(I’ll admit to being an OSU homer when it comes to Robiskie. But in general, I want all of our picks to succeed regardless of school… obviously.)
emily522 - May 20, 2010
They were busts when they were drafted:)
The Licensed Pessimist - May 20, 2010
The picks — ie the numbers — were busts once the order of drafting in the first three rounds was determined at the end of the season.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 20, 2010
on a slightly off subject would anyone object if Cleveland brought in Shawn Springs for a physical/look see? Springs was drafted by SEA in 1997 & was with them thru 2003. Get him a decent contract for 2 years to help shore up the spot. In 2011 we can revisit the FS population if Ward & the other fellow we drafted don’t pan out.
sleepy042 - May 19, 2010
not sure if he would be a good safety…especially at 35. I do like him as a player though.
bross09 - May 19, 2010
PFT reported that he failed a physical.
If he is healthy enough, and that seems to be the question, I would like to have him in here as a FS.
Bernie19Kosar - May 19, 2010
Springs never truly meshed with New England.
But if the work ethic he had in Seattle and Washington comes back, he can be a good cornerback.
CORNERBACK. The Browns might be better with Gibril Wilson at FS, Springs not only would have to adjust to a different position but would also have to ditch some of his tendencies that got him ripped apart in New England…
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 19, 2010
I’m guessing your heart got broken during the first senior bowl practice?
TheRealSlimShady - May 19, 2010
It did, as a matter of fact.
Some doctor should patent a replacement ACL that’s incapable of breaking…
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 19, 2010
GB Wilson is my boy. He really is better than anyone we have. His play the last couple years hasn’t been that great and he’s getting cut because he’s worth too much. But one day he’ll turn back in to that SB winning Giants state.
Brownie's Year - May 19, 2010
Plus he’s fairly young, if I’m remembering correctly. Could be something to look at.
AG7 - May 20, 2010
ehh…He will turn 29 during this season. Safeties also don’t last much past 30 (though he is a decent short term option). Plus he was signed 2 weeks ago.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
That could be a problem.
AG7 - May 21, 2010
yeah…it might be a problem signing him considering the bengals recently signed him.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
I don’t think GB is my friend anymore.
Brownie's Year - May 22, 2010
He’s too old now. Our youth at the position is an advantage we must develop, not throttle.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
Depends on cost. I would like to have a guy with some experience there, but it’s not like we’re making a run for a championship, so I’d have to say no, unless the price tag is low.
AG7 - May 20, 2010
I’m excited to see how Delhomme performs this year. I’m still hoping the browns sign a vet WR to give him a little help
The Licensed Pessimist - May 19, 2010
I still have not seen anyone make a cogent argument for this.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
A cogent argument for delhommo or a vet WR?
The Licensed Pessimist - May 21, 2010
Delhommo? Really?
rufio - May 21, 2010
that was actually a typo
The Licensed Pessimist - May 21, 2010
yeah, you know, delhommo. he’s italian.
Dawg Nuts - May 21, 2010
I´m split between hilarious and not nice.
mooncamping - May 23, 2010
Hey now I have a new name to put over the original one on my #17 jersey…
Andrew Tolliver - May 19, 2010
Brian Sipe?
TheDriveStillHurts - May 20, 2010
You mean you would cover up the name of a former MVP in favor of Delhomme?
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
Please tell me you’re being sarcastic.
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
Its a “Stone Hands” Edwards jersey….
Andrew Tolliver - May 20, 2010
Did you just ask yourself if you were being sarcastic?
Fantastic.
SpecialBrownie - May 20, 2010
How do I answer that question without making the other part of me sound schizo?
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
Wats the update on James Davis’s injury?
kjc - May 19, 2010
Not sure. I haven't heard anything on him since last season.
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 19, 2010
i remember he impressed last preseason so hopefully he comes back healthy and gives us a good option as Harrisons backup. Im not too sold on Hardesty just yet
kjc - May 19, 2010
Why not let him see the field for a few games before we pass judgment, whether positive or negative?
BuenosAires_Dawg - May 20, 2010
the injuries worry me tho. Anytime we get a player with an injured past im not too sold on them ha
kjc - May 21, 2010
You never know. TJ Wards history scares the crap outta me, but Joe Thomas tore his ACL after his junior season.
As long as the Browns Dr.’s gave him the okay, I am cool with it.
Bernie19Kosar - May 21, 2010
I don’t think ACLs are a big deal anymore, unless there is more than one injury to the same knee.
Ward scares me more than Hardesty. Ward’s big injury is also further in the past.
rufio - May 21, 2010
merely a ruse to prevent the NCAA from attempting to find him ineligible due to not being human.
Dawg Nuts - May 21, 2010
You mean Joe Thomas is an indestructible blocking machine?
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 21, 2010
I seriously hope this was sarcasm.
Adrock2099 - May 22, 2010
joe thomas is on his way to pancake you for being ignorant of his greatness.
notthatnoise - May 22, 2010
Kids everywhere are running to their "safe" place.
Brownie's Year - May 23, 2010
There is no “safe” place when Joe Thomas comes to pancake someone.
Adrock2099 - May 24, 2010
Nope, there’s not. That’s why I used quotation marks.
Brownie's Year - May 24, 2010
Good reviews on the QBs?
Cautiously optimistic…
emily522 - May 19, 2010
Real NFL offenses should destroy the defense every time in shorts with no contact. Glad to hear that we have the potential to be a real NFL offense this year.
rufio - May 20, 2010
sad as it is, thats an improvement
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
It’s nice to hear that Robiskie was the most active among the receivers. I’m wondering how desperate the FO is to improve the WR corps. It obviously wasn’t their main focus early on in free-agency or in the draft. Heckert knows TO, so it’s obvious why he isn’t coming. Haven’t heard any other names thrown out as possibilities, though. This leads me to the conclusion that either they see some promise in the guys we have right now, or they’re waiting till next year to really address the position. They may be checking around, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of urgency in upgrading the WRs.
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
the problem is, after TO, there really isn’t anybody left. maybe Mushin Muhammad but after him…who? that is the problem. A veteran would be nice but there really is no one to target.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
Dude, lets get back to the intention of teams benching true talents. The excessive players on their rosters. Devin Thomas, Robert Meachem, Ted Ginn Jr., Dominique Zeigler, Brandon Lloyd, Sam Hurd, and maybe not a few other significant others or the wide receiver variety, are by most standards insufficiently utilized regarding their skill and talent potentials.
We enter a space of discontent, greed and malodorous, stenchy, seethingly, hissing, festering situations of mutual dissatisfaction and ireaciously insatiable intentious involuntariously intentatious instantaneous intensively intendable scrutinable malignaciously magnemonious albeit fearfully self centered reverse centrifugically implored urgeassiously self asserting othernudgingly self contained insidous egoimlodatiousnessly urgeatiously yet libertatiously impeded and cereberallfreezing qualitatively massomedially sadoselfreflecive arduous acidious lemonade suckling astute acute in finality unresolved…dismutual agreement to be peeved and politically correctably hopefully peacably placatable…Oh F***, can´t think of it, German word: Missgunst…and immense sadness for their failed athletic ambitions.
mooncamping - May 21, 2010
Darn, not erasable. Skip the creative quantity here. I´m saying, we should be entitled to any good player not playing.
mooncamping - May 21, 2010
I have no idea what you just said, but the use of language is outstanding. REC
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
I am pretty sure at one point he strung about 15 long adjectives and adverbs together. means absolutely nothing but looks good.
bross09 - May 21, 2010
’Tis poetry sir, pure poetry.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 21, 2010
or “poestry”
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
Adjectivious and verbosist
danvail - May 22, 2010
someone needs to change moon’s fuse, i believe he has a short.
Dawg Nuts - May 21, 2010
Wow. Moon, did you just find the thesaurus on your computer or something? For some reason this calls to mind that one line from Billy Madison. How did that go?…
dawgtribe - May 21, 2010
Standing ovation from the Mooncamping Idiosyncrasy Defense and Appreciation Society. The follow up post here is genius.
The Society humbly requests permission to repost this on their upcoming web site. Please note, our charter explicitly prohibits the involuntary investigation of our central figure.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 21, 2010
can we please actually have a website?
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
second this, that would be fantastic.
Dawg Nuts - May 21, 2010
The Society prefers to have some statement of permission from its central figure on this matter, however tepid. In lieu of such, there is a division in the membership on how to proceed with the project.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 21, 2010
I really do learn something every time you post.
gahnki - May 21, 2010
Oh no. He just went there
TheRealSlimShady - May 22, 2010
Missgunst = jealousy, resentment
wbaron - May 22, 2010
Does anyone want to get in on my project. I need management and venture capital.
Here´s what we´ll do: We sign athletes onto a training team, with professional personal trainers, and then sell them to NFL teams.
Anyone, anyone, anyone?
mooncamping - May 23, 2010
I’m in.
TheRealSlimShady - May 23, 2010
My Mom says I´m not set up to do this, so I commend the idea onto the ethernet. Call my agent.
mooncamping - May 24, 2010
Just give me the #
TheRealSlimShady - May 25, 2010
I don’t think they are concerned. They know we are probably going to have to run the ball a gazillion times per game and that we can throw to guys like Cribbs, Watson, Moore, Hillis, Hardesty, Harrison, etc. who are also all helpful in the running game.
Why go grab someone to patch a perceived hole when we could just run our offense differently? Especially someone who isn’t that good and has little to no chance of improving?
rufio - May 20, 2010
Well, back to our mutual homework regarding draft preparation. Some of the draftees are not signed, yet. And a lot of good ones have been engaged by teams into their training camps with no promise of employment. Let´s stay on top of this, stick with our evaluations, and see if any of the ones we liked are being merely entertained.
mooncamping - May 21, 2010
I am wondering if the dropped passes were a function of just plain awful throws from our QB’s. Grossi was saying the WR’s and Watson looked great catching the ball.
Roger Dorn - May 20, 2010
That may be it.
emily522 - May 20, 2010
They dropped more than just the passes that were off the mark. Plus, IMO, Delhomme, Wallace and McCoy aren’t a drastic improvement over what we had last year.
AG7 - May 20, 2010
If Delhomme and Wallace are a drastic improvement, it means that Quinn and Anderson are downright awful.
Roger Dorn - May 20, 2010
So… Delhomme and Wallace are a drastic improvement, then?
Adrock2099 - May 21, 2010
They´re impressive players to bench.
mooncamping - May 21, 2010
yes.
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
How can you make that claim. Wallace has done literally nothing and Delhomme has been terrible as of late. I’m not saying DA and Quinn are better, but the improvement is minimal.
AG7 - May 21, 2010
Wallace has done more than quinn in a relatively similar amount of playing time. Delhomme had a terrible, terrible year, but it was as good as DA. It’s also the out-lier in his career, not the norm.
this is my opinion, plenty here would disagree.
notthatnoise - May 22, 2010
Ummm…not really. Wallace only started when the original was hurt.
TheRealSlimShady - May 22, 2010
and quinn only started because our other quarterbacks were derek anderson and brett ratliff
notthatnoise - May 22, 2010
Matt Hasselbeck sure hasn’t been anything to brag about lately either.
TheRealSlimShady - May 23, 2010
he’s still much better than anything we had on our roster the last 3 seasons.
At this point in their careers, Wallace has shown much more than quinn at the pro level.
notthatnoise - May 23, 2010
The fact of the matter is that adding these two and getting rid of DA and Quinn can, in no way, be considered a “drastic improvement”.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Take a look at the numbers DA put up last year. Not just bad, but historically bad. Worse than Leaf and Marinovich and whatever other really bad QB you can think of bad. And Quinn wasn’t much better and had another season ending injury.
Honest to Christ , Charlie Frye and Spergeon Wynn would have been an improvement over the mopes we had last year.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
Haha yeah this is true for last year. I was looking more at the tools that DA had. Not many would have succeeded in a Browns uniform last year, but I don’t think DA is really as bad as last year’s numbers indicate.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
he is.
notthatnoise - May 23, 2010
Right, because guys who make the Pro Bowl really don’t deserve to be there when they go, right? He obviously has the tools, and it’s not that much of a stretch to think he could get things straightened out again. Yeah, he played like shit last year, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he lacks talent.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
to answer your question, a lot of times they don’t. was david garrard a deserving pro-bowler?
also, its a pretty large stretch. he’s got great arm strength, but thats it. he’s never been accurate (not even in 2007), and he seems to be dumber than a pile of rocks. he should not have been in pro-bowler in 2007, he was an alternate. he had a great start of the season but sucked for a few weeks too.
its not like he shows flashes and puts it together once in a while, or like he’s had any type of recent success. he’s 2 and a half years from being relevant.
notthatnoise - May 23, 2010
I can’t disagree with most of those points, I just don’t think his ability to get his career back on track is out of the question. Agree to disagree I guess.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
yeah…its always possible for someone to get their career back on track…Kurt Warner was bagging groceries…but DA’s attitude and decision making, even when not pressured leads me to believe that he is much more likely to not get his career back on track…
bross09 - May 23, 2010
False.
rufio - May 23, 2010
Wallace is also much faster than Quinn.
rufio - May 22, 2010
Which is fantastic, but I’d rather have a capable QB than a Josh Cribbs impersonator back there.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Wallace is nothing like Cribbs. Wallace has a stronger arm, is more accurate, and has actually played QB in the NFL.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
I realize this, but my point is that he really isn’t that good. His speed isn’t going to be a big factor for us, IMO.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Quinn and Anderson are both excellent quarterbacks. It´s the Karma Patrol that called it.
If Colt McCoy´s fate doesn´t say “suck”, I think we have a good one.
mooncamping - May 23, 2010
I don’t even know what that means. It’s cool most of the time, but make a serious comment once in a while.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
No one messes with moon.
TheRealSlimShady - May 23, 2010
On the contrary, many mess with moon, but it seldom has any effect.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 23, 2010
Messing with Moon is out of the question. He’s our Joe Thomas.
Brownie's Year - May 23, 2010
Flag
rufio - May 23, 2010
Jokes, baby.
Brownie's Year - May 24, 2010
My condolences to your family on your impending pancaking.
danvail - May 24, 2010
This guy could post something telling us about how fantastic jelly filled donuts are and it would get 43 recs.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
But… Jelly donuts are awesome…
jaws. - May 24, 2010
right, because moon’s description of jelly donuts would be bewildering and mysterious. i for one would rec it.
Dawg Nuts - May 25, 2010
I think it will be a factor for us, mostly in the wildcat package. Last year we threw to Quinn. This year, both Cribbs and Wallace could throw or catch.
A lot of teams keep the regular personnel in the game with the exception of their “wildcat” guy. That way the defense can’t have a personnel package of their own to counter, they can only adjust once they see the QB line up abnormally (usually as a WR). At that point, the defense can play run with a pretty good level of certainty.
If we put Wallace and Cribbs in the game, the defense can’t do that, in large part because Wallace has actually played WR in the NFL. Much unlike Quinn, who the defense could leave pretty much uncovered and live with catching the ball for a 8 yard gain and a hit on our starting QB.
rufio - May 23, 2010
Remember when I talked about the rocket pocket concept.
I´m envisioning a pro formation shotgun, that is the QB in the shotgun and a runningback to each side of him. The concept calls for those three positions to be hybrid QB/RB/WR.
Your right, we already have two in Cribbs and Wallace. Who else Stanback, Batch? You need to check some of the runningbacks and widereceivers career histories, some of them may have played QB in High School and college.
mooncamping - May 24, 2010
Brian Russel.
danvail - May 24, 2010
The latest browns OTA video has a shot of Seneca Wallace running the Zone-read with the first team. This makes me very happy.
jaws. - May 24, 2010
We “ran” it last year as well, several times, even with BQ and the third option of the WR screen. We never got many yards.
The read option surprises no one anymore.
rufio - May 24, 2010
It doesn’t need to surprise anyone. just signals to me that the Browns are on the right track with wallace.
jaws. - May 25, 2010
It kinda does need to surprise someone. That’s the whole reason for doing “new” things on offense, both in college and the NFL.
Any team who is ready for the read can strategically even the playing field. When that’s the case, you still have to win the blocks. If you have to win the blocks anyway, why not run your normal stuff, which is probably all much more cohesive and part of a series of plays?
rufio - May 25, 2010
Alright ladies and gents, time to put the pearls on ice, and let the diamonds in the rough mind the grind, get the field wet and lets get dirty. Sock em rock em, see if those veterans are for real.
mooncamping - May 20, 2010
Amen to that.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 20, 2010
i agree with every word of what he said.
Dawg Nuts - May 20, 2010
See if the veterans are for real? How about the big rookie class we just brought in? At least with Delhomme the only thing we’re really asking is if he’s stopped turning the ball over. Who knows if the rookies can even play at this level.
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
For the past few years, we wondered and wondered if pre-season performances would translate to the regular season. I don’t recall getting more than mixed reviews of pre-season workouts anyhow. With Delhomme, he has already demonstrated that his pre-season success can translate to regular season play, and I’m cautiously optimistic.
NM Dawg - May 20, 2010
Me too. I really hope Delhomme and Robiskie gel together and surprise all the naysayers.
In fact, I vote for this as DBN’s new tag line:
Dawgs By Nature – A Cleveland Browns Blog – Cautiously Optimistic.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 20, 2010
Yes.
emily522 - May 20, 2010
Excellent idea.
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 20, 2010
The Licensed Cautious Optimist.
Roger Dorn - May 20, 2010
I would like to start by saying that I’ve got nothing against Robiskie, and I hope he gets it going this year. That being said, I think the majority of the people on here are getting overly optimistic about him. If he wasn’t from OSU, I don’t think many would have the same view on his situation. It seems to make more sense to be pissed that he didn’t come through at all last season than to get excited about him having caught some passes in OTA’s.
AG7 - May 20, 2010
I’m cautiously optimistic about the team as a whole; as for Robiskie, I’m glad to read good news items and I hope for the best, but we’ll see. Many receivers develop slowly, and given our generally awful passing game last year, I can’t see why he couldn’t be one of them.
I couldn’t possibly care less about where he played college ball though, and I’m always a little baffled at why people think it matters. Shades of Braylon?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 21, 2010
I’m not an OSU fan, but I’d rather get excited about him having some success in OTA than spend my time bitching and moaning about him not doing crap last year. He’s on the team and we will more than likely need production from him to be successful. Plus why not just beat the old dead Delhomme horse?
Villeslgr - May 21, 2010
I understand the desire for him to succeed, but it is strange to me the way some players are viewed.
The DQ situation for example: it seems to me that the general feeling is that he won’t be here come the regular season. Rather than express hope or optimism about the prospect of him staying, he is more or less written off. I don’t understand why a guy who has been solid gets overlooked sometimes, while a second year player who has done absolutely nothing is receiveing so much positive attention. Again I would like to see him do well as much as the next guy, I just think he gets more credit and positive hype than he deserves.
AG7 - May 21, 2010
Since I am in the camp of the “DQ is meh”, I will explain my views.
It’s not that I don’t like DQ, it’s just that I personally don’t think 95% of the ILB/MLB’s in the NFL much, if any, VORP.
I am sure that most people on here are tired of hearing me say this, but I wouldn’t pay big money or use a high draft pick on an ILB/MLB (Rufio will follow this by saying “unless it is Ray Lewis or Patrick Willis”). DQ isn’t in that group. I would trade DQ for a mid pick and replace him rather easily.
As for Robo, I am a huge tOSU homer and I didn’t like the pick when it happened. That being said, even I am surprised at how poorly he has done so far. But we all know that WR is a three year incubation period for most, so I am not too worried. If he does nothing this season, then I will be much closer to pushing the panic button. The missing production of Veikune is 10x more worrisome IMO.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
Unless it is Ray Lewis or Patrick Willis.
Seriously though, DQ is not in that league. I still think he is a good player, despite him playing a easy-to-replace position. My thought on this is as follows:
-I think DQ is worth at most a 3rd round pick to some team out there.
-I don’t think 3rd round picks are as good as DQ on average. Of course you can find a star in the 3rd round, but for every star there are a lot of players who were drafted in the 3rd and are out of the league after 3 years.
-I think we have a lot of places where we need talent on our roster. I think there are lots of positions on our roster that have starters who have less VORP than D’Qwell.
-DQ is not old, and it doesn’t seem like his contract situation is to a point where he really wants out of here. He just wants a longer term deal. He has said he would like a contract that lets him retire a Brown.
-He seems to embody a lot of the qualities the organization has stated it looks for in players: hardworking, smart, tough, good character.
Therefore, at this point it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to trade him to me. Unless something out of the ordinary happens, one of Fujita/Gocong will need to play outside simply because we lack OLBs. Roth will play outside. That leaves DQ, Veikune, Maiava, Bowens and Barton to play inside. Just from reviewing a few of the games toward the end of last year, Maiava should only be on the field in passing situations. Veikune has been a huge disappointment so far and hasn’t played outside of ST. Barton was pretty bad last year and is coming off of a serious neck injury. Bowens played out of his mind last year, but I am not counting on him to play at that level again, and frankly he’s old.
He’s made a minor fuss out of his contract situation, as have a lot of RFAs. I don’t think that’s too ridiculous concerning the state of the CBA.
rufio - May 22, 2010
I should have been more clear.
I wasn’t implying that we could replace DQ right away with a 3rd round draft pick, I meant more the FA route or elevating a young player (Trusnik, etc.).
He, like the rest of the RFA’s, shouldn’t be complaining to their teams, they should be complaining to the players union who let this get to this point. They have known for years that this uncapped season would have a lot of triggers and hidden clauses.
I don’t think the Browns owe DQ, Harrison, etc. anything.
But getting back to my original point, the reason I don’t care if DQ is here next season or not is because I don’t think he is that big of a loss. If Robo turns into the WR that some around here expect, our offense would have a dimension that it didn’t previously have.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
I don’t really see DQ or any of these guys (with the possible exception of Roth) “complaining”. I see them trying to get money now while they can through the only means they have. The players union isn’t going to pay them a big signing bonus.
And I don’t blame the NFLPA, I blame the owners. The NFLPA has tried to initiate talks but the owners won’t listen. The players are the ones who put the work in, who we are interested in, who make the product what it is, and who put themselves in harm’s way. The owners sit back and get rich off of other people. The owners opted out of the CBA, not the NFLPA. And it wasn’t like they weren’t making millions of dollars too.
The reason I DO care about D’Qwell being here next year is that if he isn’t we won’t have gotten anything good in return for him. If he wants to walk in FA and have someone else overpay him, I think we win. This upcoming season, we gain nothing by letting him go/trading him.
I also think that any FA who we’d sign who could come in and play at DQ’s level would be way more expensive than DQ himself. You are always overpaying in FA vs. homegrown players. And Trusnik is not that good.
rufio - May 22, 2010
I was referencing DQ’s twitter ramblings earlier this offseason as “whining”.
Millionaires arguing with Billionaires. Isn’t life sweet?
I can’t crap on the owners too much, because I haven’t heard them complaining yet. On the other hand, DeMaurice Smith is sounding the alarms every freaking day with his “14 out of 10” and telling anyone who will listen that the owners are lying snakes.
I think that there is plenty of blame to go around, but DeMaurice Smith is in way over his head.
Bowens did it last year, and I am willing to bet that Fujita could do it this year. I think we are a better team with DQ, just not by that much.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
It remains to be seen how much DQ would be signed for either by us or on the open market, so comparing his relative value to players who have played well for us for 6 games and have yet to step on the field for us respectively, is pretty useless.
Also, Fujita’s deal is reportedly 3 years, $14million, 8 guaranteed. You don’t think we could get DQ for a significant amount less than 4.66million/year? If he wants that much, let him play this year and then let him walk.
I would love to be a hundredthousandaire.
rufio - May 22, 2010
I think DQ wants much more than Fujita.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
More years, but not more per year. I am pretty sure if we offered DQ 5 years, 18 million, 10 of that guaranteed, he’d take it.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 22, 2010
No way.
Channing Crowder got three years, 14 million. That is the low end.
Lofa Tatupu got six years, 42 million. DeMeco Ryans got six years, 48 million. That is the high end.
I think DQ would fall somewhere in the middle. 5 years 25 million. IMO, too high for a replaceable position.
Bernie19Kosar - May 23, 2010
I don’t think he wants that much. If he does, he can walk (pending new salary cap measures in a potentially new CBA).
rufio - May 23, 2010
Agree, if this is what he wants, we should let him walk.
Roger Dorn - May 23, 2010
Most players are not millionaires, and the average career in the NFL is something like 4 or 5 years.
But I am on the same page as you: I feel sooo bad for the owners — they are unable to make any money at all; that is why we never hear about their profits but know all about every player’s salary. Also, the poor owners are forced to take hundreds of millions of dollars from taxpayers to build stadiums and take billions from TV networks to televise games.
And if you are a real special owner, you can put your Dad’s initials on the uniform for no apparent reason, and leave it there forever.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 22, 2010
this is true…especially since rookies haven’t really proved much. However, if you look at the LBs taken outside of the top 60 picks or so, I would say that personally, that about 50% at least (drafted in rounds late 2-late 4) would turn out to be at least as good as DQ. No one is a guarantee in the draft but DQ is not incredibly hard to replace.
I don’t care honestly about the fuss he has made and I would not mind keeping him.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
To prove your point
Our 3rd Round history in new era:
1999 – Daylon McCutcheon and Marquis Smith
2000- Travis Prentice and JaJuan Dawson
2001- James Jackson
2002- Mel Fowler
2003 – Chris Crocker
2005 – Charlie Frye
2006 – Travis Wilson
2004, 2007, and 2008 – no 3rd round picks.
If you consider Browns contributions – you could argue that DQ has contributed more than all of them combined. Of the 9 picks – 6 are complete busts in the NFL. 2 were busts for the Browns (Fowler and Crocker) but became marginal contributors in the NFL. McCutcheon was the only player that was not a bust for the Browns – and was a mediocre player for several years.
In addition, there is no way we could get a 3rd for DQ. We got a 3rd for Kam and he was completely healthy. Until DQ proves he is healthy – I cant see getting more than a 6th and more likely 7th for him.
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
You forget that McCutcheon was until Joe Thomas, the best Brown draft pick since ’99.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
Yes, but that is one3rd round selection out of 9.
rufio - May 22, 2010
Yeah But
Was he really better than an average CB? Or was it we were so desperate for players to root for in that time period
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
I don’t think he was great, but he was easily one of the top 32 CB’s in the NFL, which would make him a number one CB in my mind.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
Agree top 32 would be better than mediocre
I remember him as a good tackler, sort of average in coverage, and not making alot of impact plays.
realmccoy - May 23, 2010
McCutcheon was a good bit better than mediocre.
golanbatrac - May 22, 2010
but this point is irrelevant. it is comparing apples to a baseball field.
the only similarity between DQ and these guys is that we could get a third possibly for DQ when healthy and these guys are guys who have been drafted in the third round. This point is irrelevant because:
a) these guys were not drafted by the current browns regime. We cannot say how the current browns regime will do drafting in the third round, especially drafting linebackers…at least from what you have put together.
As an example, here is a list of some of the players the eagles have taken in the third with Heckert: Brian Westbrook, Stewart Bradley, Chris Gocong, Derrick Burgess. Not only is this a more accurate way to analyze the hypothetical of the third round pick but it also makes me feel more confident.
b) none of these players are linebackers! certain positions have certain success rates. like B19K has said, it is hard for a QB out of the first round to make it. WRs bust in every round. Bust rates for RBs after the second tend to be fairly high too. This tells us NOTHING about drafting linebackers because none of these players are linebackers.
c) DQ was a second round pick. He wasn’t taken in the third. The only thing I said is that I believe 50% of ILBs taken in the between the 60th and 120th pick could be at least as good as DQ (who was taken 34th overall). I would say its risky to pick any one guy out of them and say he will be as good, but I think in this draft, there were a fair number of ILBs in the third round that could gve as much of an impact as DQ.
I looked at all LBs drafted in the draft in the third round between 1998 and 2007. I looked at names I recognized, stats, and a bit of tape. There were about 50 linebackers drafted and about 21 ended up being about as good as DQ is. that is 41% of guys drafted A ROUND ahead of him became about as good. I think betting 50/50 in this draft isn’t a huge stretch.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
You Have to Remember
In Philly, Heckert had Andy Reid, while here he has Mangini. In addition, Reid actually had final say on the draft – not Heckert. I am not knocking his importance to their organization, or suggesting he did not have impact in their drafting success – just saying your point is not totally analagous either.
I will say this – I was personally disappointed in the Haden, Ward, Lovullo picks – and felt the trade up for Hardesty may have been unnecessary. If he hits 2-3 of those picks – I will sing his praises.
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
Well, haden is they guy we were kinda stuck with. I don’t think anyone wanted to trade up to #7 and I don’t think anyone above us was interested in trading down unless they got absolutely maximum value. So, we had to just take the BPA and that happened to be haden in our eyes.
The hope with Ward and Lauvau is that our front office and scouts know better than the media outlets. Because the Media didn’t think they were as good as our scouts thought they were.
jaws. - May 23, 2010
the problem was that there were about 5-6 guys that were the elite guys. after those guys, 7 to 16 or 17 were pretty much even. Its kind of like what I have read about the MLB draft this year. the indians have the 5th pick. there are 3-4 elite guys and 7-20 are not a ton different.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
See your points
The first 6 picks could not have fallen any worse. The fall of Claussen, the lack of a true run on the OL sort of “doomed” the pick. I would have preferred 2 selections to Haden however, assuming we could not trade down. The first is CJ Spiller – just because I think he could possibly be just a game breaker – a threat to score everytime he touches the ball. The second is Earl Thomas. The reasons I prefer Earl, there is no concern whatsoever, he is a headhunter, and I think he could add the flexibility of having both a free safety and CB. We could really use a free safety that can fly – with tremendous ball skill. I do understand that he was only a soph, so he prolly came on the radar a lil late. In addition, I am a huge Longhorn fan, and we have had Thorpe winners year after year – but I have never seen a player as physical as Earl with such ball skills.
realmccoy - May 23, 2010
I understand Reid had the final say. Still…Heckert had more say with those picks than he did with the picks the organization has made from 1999-2009…so while this evidence isn’t the best, it is much more relevant than browns picks in previous years.
You can’t always trade down in the draft. its not as easy as just saying you are trading down (and now I am reminded of michael scott from the office walking in and yelling "I declare Bankrupcy). Ward and Lauvao really weren’t much of reaches anyways. Ward was possibly a reach and hardesty was rated high on many draft boards (and was possibly going to go 2 picks later)
bross09 - May 23, 2010
I have respect for Heckert
And I do think he is a significant upgrade for us. He has forgotten more about player evaluation than I will ever know. I hated our second round last year – and was a lil off on Mass – but still hate the round. I get the same feel this year. Bunch of injured guys. Montario able to have 1 season at Tenn, and Ward seemingly always injured. Plus – I have seen countless Oregon games and they seem to suck on defense to me.
I hope I am wrong about those 2 – and Heckert right – and with his track record he is prolly right.
realmccoy - May 23, 2010
I get why you have doubts with injuries about both guys. However, Ward was fully healthy for 2007 when he was a key reserve, 2008 when he was a starting safety next to Pat Chung (and actually outperformed Chung by a little. Ward sprained his ankle in 2009 but came back fully healthy.
besides the ankle sprain, he hasn’t had major injuries since 2006. There are definitely some doubts there, but I am not terribly worried. Yes, oregon was not great on D, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have good players. Patrick Chung played there in 2008 too…you can have great individual players on a crappy defense (Tamba Hali)
bross09 - May 23, 2010
You are completely out of your mind. 50% of players in rounds late2-late4 are as good as D’Qwell?
Out of your mind.
Everyone around here saw the team begin to play better as a unit after D’Qwell and Rogers were out and all of a sudden you’ve forgotten how good those players are as individuals.
I JUST watched a play in the Chargers game last year where DQ would have made a tackle 5-6 yards behind the LoS. Trusnik couldn’t get there at all and the play went for a TD.
rufio - May 22, 2010
I am saying that I think that 50% of the LBs drafted in this period in the 2010 draft could end up being as good of players as DQ. obviously we are talking about the draft so it could easily not happen. These guys are definitely not better than DQ now, I am saying there is a decent chance they could be someday.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
Read above.
Out of your mind.
rufio - May 22, 2010
That’s a ridiculous point. Hey, there are 235 guys in high school that are looking pretty beast right now too, why not wait 4 years and grab them, they will obviously be better than DQ.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
how is it a ridiculous point? I am just saying that about 40% of guys drafted in the third round end up being as good of a player as DQ is at LB. considering he was a 2nd round pick, this doesn’t seem that ridiculous (that 40% of guys at the same position drafted about a round later ended up being about as good).
Now, I would not say that means that we should try right now to trade him for a third rounder, nor am I saying that the guy we get will automatically come in and be DQ. I am pointing out he is not a player that is completely irreplacable in the draft.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
Ok my bad. I thought you were saying that LB’s like DQ are almost easy to find in the draft.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
nope. I am saying that he doesn’t bring something special to the table but there is no way a guarantee we can get similar value back. chances are we wouldn’t.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
List them. It absolutely seems “that ridiculous”.
rufio - May 23, 2010
2005: Leroy Hill, Kirk Morrison, Channing Crowder (3/6)
2004: Landon Johnson (1/4)
2003: Lance Briggs, Angelo Crowell, Gerald Hayes (3/5)
2002: Akin Ayodele, Will Witherspoon, Ben Leber (3/7)
2001: Morlon Greenwood (1/6)
2000: No One (0/2)
1999: Joey Porter, Dat Nyugen (2/3)
1998: Jeremiah Trotter (1/4)
1997: Dexter Coakley, Bertand Berry, Mike Vrabel (3/5)
2006: Steven Tulloch, Freddy Keiaho, Clint Ingram (3/7)
2007: Quincy Black, Stewart Bradley (2/4)
so thats 21/53 or about 40%.
bross09 - May 24, 2010
You have no idea how good DQ is.
3/4 of those guys are terrible—way worse than DQ.
rufio - May 24, 2010
okay. we have very different opinions of how good DQ is. I think that could settle this whole thing.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
Tulloch, Gerald Hayes, Landon Johnson, Morlon Greenwood, Quincy Black, Angelo Crowell?
Seriously?
For reference, scouts inc rates those players
65, 66, 59, not at all, 59, and 70. DQ is rated as a 75.
I could be nice and give you Crowell, but scouts inc isn’t 15+ points off. And there were more than 50 LBs drafted from 20th in the 2nd-20th in the 4th over that period of time.
rufio - May 25, 2010
I was just looking at the third round purely for this first of all, and not the 2nd or 4th rounds.
so scouts inc dictates who is good and who is not? not every scouting agency is 100% right. Maybe they have overrated DQ, which I believe they have.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
They have an informed opinion about players who have been in the NFL for 3+ seasons. They are generally close to correct on NFL players. They can give one a good general idea about how well a player has played to this point.
I don’t care if they have overrated DQ “a bit”, the point is that you are hugely off of any consensus rankings of NFL players, and are just throwing numbers out there to prove a point you may or may not be arguing.
rufio - May 25, 2010
Taking the 2006 draft class as an example, picks 52 (20th in 2nd round) through 117 (#20 in the 4th round) these are the players I put on DQ’s level, and I am being generous:
Greg Jennings
Jeremy Trueblood
Maurice Jones-Drew
Tony Scheffler
Darryl Tapp
Eric Winston
Chris Gocong
Jerious Norwood
Charlie Whitehurst
Freddie Keiaho
Owen Daniels
Max Jean-Gilles
Brad Smith
Gabe Watson
Jahri Evans
Jason Avant
Leon Washington
In other words, 17 out of a possible 65 players, or about one out of four are on DQ’s level.
As for linebackers taken in those slots:
Abdul Hodge
Anthony Schlegel
Jon Alston
Clint Ingram
James Anderson
Keiaho
Darnell Bing
Leon Williams
Stephen Tulloch
rufio - May 22, 2010
And you are being generous
I would prolly have narrowed it to about 11 or 12. Gocong for example just got trades as a throw in for Sheldon Brown.
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
Great point Ruf - sort of proof positive
But I really think we are talking about a 6th or 7th for DQ until proven healthy. Then he would be a 3rd round value – not bad – 4-5 years of productivity and then a 3rd.
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
I wouldn’t trade him for a 6th or 7th.
Bernie19Kosar - May 22, 2010
He’s worth more than that. He hasn’t really been plagued by injury. NFL teams know what he brings to the table.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Proof?
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
Proof of what? That he isn’t really injury plagued? The fact that he hasn’t been hurt that much. Teams can look at tape and realize how much he did for our defense, even if many here don’t agree.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
The assumption that you’re making here is that other teams would look at his tape and be impressed with his play. There’s no way you could know this. The only thing that we know at this point is what the Browns think of him, that he’s not worth what he’s asking for.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
So the Browns opinion is what we should take as a measure of a player’s talent. I don’t believe the Browns wanted to give Cribbs what he deserved either. It would make no sense for a team to just dish out money to anyone who wants it. Obviously, they will try to negotiate to give as little as possible, which does not translate into the Browns not valuing DQ.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Until we have even the slightest indication what other teams think of DQ, the Brown’s opinion, that he’s not worth what he’s asking, is the only opinion we have to go on.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
Scratch that. We do know something about what other teams think of DQ. No team in the NFL thought he was worth the second rounder it would have taken to sign him away from the Browns.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
We do know that Phil Savage, Romeo, and Mangini have all had very positive things to say about DQ’s play. No one has said anything that would indicate he is merely average.
Also, using the RFA thing is a little bit different in a scenario where so many other players in the league are also RFA’s. The RFA activity this year was down as a result.
Roger Dorn - May 23, 2010
just because someone is praised, does not inherently make them good. words are just that, words. did a teammate vouching for Jimmy Clausen during the draft process make it so that he must not have any sort of character issues?
yes, we should consider these men’s opinions, but a good amount of stats out there support the theory that he is a solid ballplayer, but nothing special.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
Which is what most of us are arguing. No one is saying he is special.
Roger Dorn - May 23, 2010
and I have been arguing this point the whole time. He is a decent player but very replacable.
This was the conclusion to my first point made that got this whole thing started.
So I have been arguing from the beginning that I don’t mind keeping him but he is not that hard to replace.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
Yes, but are you not of the opinion that we shouldn’t pay him? If you are going to tell us how replaceable he is, please explain to us how and who.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
so, because I think he is demanding more than he is worth, I have to automatically come up with a replacement player?
I can come up with some.
Channing Crowder: almost as good against the run, weaker in coverage, but a better blitzer
However he was not a free agent this year.
Kirk Morrison was a RFA and could have been had for a 4th rounder. He does everything DQ does but is a bit better against the run.
Gary Brackett…though he is a couple years older than DQ.
There were not a lot of good UFA linebackers on the market this year. that does not mean he isn’t replacable, there wasn’t much in the way of Servicable linebackers that were unrestricted free agents…to put it this way, Andra davis was a top 5 ILB UFA this year.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
No, you’ve been saying he isn’t very good, and then hedging once someone stands up to you and tells you that you are incorrect, then you have been throwing out ridiculous stats about the draft without actually posting anything here, all the while ignoring my points and pretending like you’ve been arguing what everyone else is saying the whole time.
rufio - May 23, 2010
False. I have been saying he is not irreplacable, has a fairly low VORP, and it is not terribly hard to find someone to give us something similar.
I never once said he was a bad player or that he was not good. I have however been saying is is not much to write home about. that is it. if you think I have been saying He isn’t at all good, then you are completely missing what I am saying.
bross09 - May 24, 2010
You throw out so many different adjectives to describe these players that it’s impossible to pin your views down.
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
Potentially. We could match any team’s offer if they signed him to an offer sheet for that 2nd round pick.
So he very well might be worth a second to someone out there, but not the risk of maybe giving away a second only to have us match their offer sheet.
rufio - May 23, 2010
I would be irate if some team was willing to pony up a second rounder for DQ and we kept him.
Bernie19Kosar - May 24, 2010
Doesn’t mean teams will offer a RFA.
rufio - May 24, 2010
They haven’t offered, and we have not passed on that offer.
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
No one is going to offer that for him.
Bernie19Kosar - May 24, 2010
Right, just like no one has offered quite a few other talented RFA’s a tender offer.
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
Exactly.
rufio - May 24, 2010
The statement that I’m taking issue with is that he’s “not worth what he’s asking.” You can’t just assume they don’t value him that highly. The Browns, even if they do think he is worth the money, aren’t just going to hand it over. So, there is really no way to know how the feel about him without some kind of statement from them.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
If he was worth what he’s asking they would sign him immediately. That they haven’t signed him means that he’s asking for more than what they are willing to give. I don’t see why this is controversial?
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
No, I don’t think that is accurate at all. Ok let’s use someone like Joe Thomas. When it comes time to re-sign him, and he gives the Browns an idea of how much he wants. Do you think they would say, “GREAT! 300 million over 5 years would be perfect!”? No, they negotiate to keep him, but they don’t want to pay a cent over what they absolutely have to.
The Browns do likely value DQ, but every player asking for a new contract isn’t going to get what they are asking for.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
Joe Thomas, imminent pancake be damned, is not worth $300 million over 5 years. It would be the same situation, he’s not worth what he’s asking for.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
i think joe thomas will respect the balls you’ve shown and spare you.
Dawg Nuts - May 25, 2010
Have they even sat down and talked numbers at this point?
From the reports it seems like it has been all our RFAs-Trusnik asking for long term deals and the FO basically saying “we aren’t negotiating with anyone yet”.
What have you seen that says he’s been denied?
rufio - May 23, 2010
Unfortunately the points regarding Dequell are a bit mute. He produced like a gazillion tackles under real conditions one year, albeit unencumbered in a heat seeking role. Same thing with Derek Anderson, that was a by most accounts Pro Bowl season that one year, even if under optimal conditions.
Things go awry, and you have to find reasons to trade them, that is all. The new thing is, and I hope you would get used to it, is to set them free with some wishing well. If they win the Super Bowl on another team, to an extreme, more power to them, no apologies, wasn´t our cup of tea.
mooncamping - May 24, 2010
This is completely false. He has consistently put up great tackling numbers, regardless of whether you find it important or not. He lead the league twice.
AG7 - May 24, 2010
wrong. they can speak just fine.
Dawg Nuts - May 25, 2010
Excellent.
golanbatrac - May 25, 2010
he looks solid on tape, but not at all anything better than a solid player.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
I wasn’t calculating all positions. comparing different positions in the draft is comparing apples to oranges. each one has different success rates and has different success in certain rounds.
Now, I looked at linebackers taken from 1998-2007. I thought 21 looked about as good and put up similar stats as DQ. that is out of 50-51 (I can’t remember). That is 41-42% that have had at least similar success as DQ and were similarly as good. That is still less than half and less than a 50/50 shot at getting someone who could be as good, however I thought that
a) 2010 was very deep, especially on D
b) there were a lot of very nice linebackers to be had around that point.
Maybe 50% was a bit overzealous, but it is not extremely far off of the rate that guys in that round did.
If you went to look at LBs from the second round, I bet over 60 (maybe as much as 2/3) of linebackers had at least similar success…DQ was a second rounder.
Still, I am not arguing that we should trade DQ for a 3rd right now. If we take a LB to eventually replace him, the odds are more in favor that they won’t be as good if we use the exact pick we got. not that the odds would be particularly terrible, but I would not put money on it.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
I gave you about 8 LBs above who aren’t as good as DQ above, and they were all drafted from the period you suggested in one year.
There is no way I believe you that there were only 30 total LB busts in that draft range over 10 years.
rufio - May 23, 2010
and that was a particularly bad year for LBs. at the same time, you can look at an isolated year and get some very skewed perceptions.
If you looked at 2002: you would think that you would be better off taking a QB in later rounds because you could get a Shaun Hill or David Garrard…and that first round QBs bust. But its just not true that you should try to get QBs later.
If you look at 2001, it looks very smart to draft DTs in the first round because there were 6 drafted…3 pro bowlers, and 3 disappointments who however still are in the league. However, this is not an accurate cross section of what drafting a DT will likely be like.
and you can look at 2006, but I can look at 2002 (one of the years I mentioned) where you have Will Witherspoon and Akin Adoyele coming out of the 3rd round.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
List the linebackers.
I’ll give you Witherspoon, but Ayodele isn’t as good as DQ.
If you are counting guys like that, you have really skewed the data. And I counted 27 LBs taken in the range we are talking about in 2004, 2005, and 2006, so I highly doubt that there were only 50 taken over a period of 10 drafts.
A lot of them are already out of the league.
rufio - May 23, 2010
I disagree on ayodele. a lot is up to opinion. I think Ayodele bring something very similar to the table that DQ does to a team. I listed the linebackers above.
bross09 - May 24, 2010
Ayodele isn’t half the player DQ is. You are completely wrong on this one.
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
Witherspoon is worse as well. Otherwise Eagles don’t just let him go after trading for him during the season.
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
I am being very, very lenient on the players that I am accepting into DQ’s league on this thread. If people complain about his lack of turnovers/impact plays, they should look at these guys’ stat sheets: same lack of TOs, way less tackles.
rufio - May 24, 2010
ayodele averages 2.1 turnovers caused a season (16 games) and 1.3 sacks.
DQ averages 1 sack and 1.5 turnovers caused.
Witherspoon averages 2.35 turnovers and 2.8 sacks a season.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
Exactly?
rufio - May 25, 2010
you were saying witherspoon and ayodele are similar to DQ at making impact plays…however, both have shown to be consistently better.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
1-2 more “impact plays” per year is not “consistently better” in any meaningful evaluation.
I would expect any LB playing for the Eagles to get quintuple the opportunity for sacks (and many more opportunities for FFs as a result) than any linebacker playing under Romeo.
rufio - May 25, 2010
thats probably true about someone in the eagles system.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
Witherspoon just got traded for by a playoff team, and then was released shortly after the season ended. Why would a team trade a high draft pick for a player and then release him a few months later if he was talented? Maybe those stats you showed me aren’t very meaningful, because he did force a few turnovers for the Eagles.
Roger Dorn - May 25, 2010
like I responded to you below, I was talking about witherspoon throughout his whole career…not just this year.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
You were talking about how DQ is replaceable, so shouldn’t we be discussing guys that can replace DQ right now? Otherwise, we are wasting our time.
Roger Dorn - May 25, 2010
I think this entire conversation with bross has been a waste of time.
rufio - May 25, 2010
I actually agree with this…
I have been wasting my own time arguing a stupid and irrelevant point.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
I am not arguing these guys are better players right now. I was pointing out guys who were just as successful in my opinion.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
I disagree. Ayodele is a bit better at making plays and causing turnovers.
bross09 - May 25, 2010
I couldn’t agree more.
TheRealSlimShady - May 22, 2010
Veikune was a monster hybrid in college, I think he´s merely confused, and hasn´t been able to train for a certain position. He´s big enough to plug some holes at inside linebacker, but he displayed some mobility in training camp videos, so contrary to my expectations for sporty aggressive guys outside, he may be the rare exception of a big guy that can really move. I think he can give Maualuga a run for his money in comparison inside, and he can bag guys like Dumervil outside, he´s much more versatile. Don´t give up hope on this guy, he was worth the gamble of a second round pick.
Maiava is a tough cookie, he can stick his nose in there as an inside linebacker. Check his backpedal, quick burst, and reaction skills forwards, backwards, sideways, diagonally.
Roth, Trusnik, Fujita and Gocong to me are beefboys, they can fulfill their purposes though in certain alignments and situations.
Barton is a wily veteran inside. He´ll do.
I´m not in a situation to see what´s going on in camp. Eryk Anders could be the guy outside, and Jon Dempsey looks stout for inside linebacker.
mooncamping - May 23, 2010
I’m still sold on Veikune. As you say, if he puts it together, he has a rare combination of size and mobility for a linebacker.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
Moon, I just recognized your avatar. Bravo, sir, bravo.
gahnki - May 23, 2010
Did mooncamping just offer an entire post that actually makes sense?
jaws. - May 24, 2010
I think the fact that we have been lacking in the talent department has an impact on the way he has to play though. You can’t expect a guy who has to constantly make up for other players’ mistakes to go balls to the wall like Ray Lewis can. He has to take into account that if he commits and makes the wrong call, Furrey is his security blanket.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
but even when he had talent around him, a couple years ago, he wasn’t any better.
2008, our defense actually improved significantly, however DQ was not as good. still made stops at the same rate. his average yards against the run stayed the same. He is what he is. A solid player on an average defense who makes some plays but is not much of a playmaker.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
What talent are you referring to?
AG7 - May 23, 2010
true, true.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
Lewis has a lot of talent in front of him, too. For a few years their defense’s goal was to keep him clean and let him launch himself at the ballcarrier.
rufio - May 23, 2010
THANK YOU! Bross refuses to admit that a talented front 3 impacts the average yards per run play, and it is driving me insane.
AG7 - May 24, 2010
Bross refuses to admit a number of things.
rufio - May 24, 2010
I never refused to admit that the front 3 has any sort of impact. don’t put words into my mouth. I was merely pointing out that when you talk about DQs yards per run play he was involved in, we had starting ILBs next to him that were averaging less with the SAME front 3.
bross09 - May 24, 2010
You have no idea what you are talking about.
rufio - May 24, 2010
This should be the stock answer to all of bross’ posts.
golanbatrac - May 24, 2010
Press F5. “You have no idea what you are talking about.”
Roger Dorn - May 24, 2010
No. Alt+F4
SpecialBrownie - May 24, 2010
yes, some people may feel this way, but I dunno if this is the general feeling. I am in the DQ “meh” camp like Bernie, yet I am not writing him off completely or saying he is definitely gone.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
I think this is the key. Robo is going to be a second year player and the hope is that he can become productive. I think the belief is that DQ is who we think he is and that he will be a solid player but not a Willis or a Lewis.
Villeslgr - May 22, 2010
yep.
2nd round players don’t always produce the first year. even looking back into 2nd rounders for the browns. Pool was mostly a special teams guy and a guy who was in only on select packages.
Especially with WRs. many of them don’t to anything really their first year but end up blossoming…guys like V-Jax, Steve Smith (both), Devery Henderson, Chad Johnson,
bross09 - May 22, 2010
Yes. Being that he is a solid player we should be pulling for him to stay here.
AG7 - May 23, 2010
So long as it doesn’t cost us anything.
golanbatrac - May 23, 2010
Exactly.
Bernie19Kosar - May 24, 2010
He was a second round pick. I don’t see how we shouldn’t expect him to produce.
And although he was probably picked 10 picks “too early”, many others had him in the 2nd round as well. He is young, big, fast enough, and has great hands.
I don’t think anyone is expecting 1000 yards from him, but consistently getting on the field and doing his job isn’t out of the question.
rufio - May 21, 2010
It helps that now he has QBs who can get him the ball... But if he doesn't pan out, maybe the Browns could trade for Michael Jenkins of the Falcons...
OBrienSchofieldismyHero - May 21, 2010
He has? I am as optimistic as the next guy, but how has Delhomme “already demonstrated that his pre-season success can translate to regular season play”?
TheDriveStillHurts - May 20, 2010
I’m sure he’s referring to the past. Otherwise someone’s gonna have to break it to him that the season hasn’t started yet.
dawgtribe - May 20, 2010
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/94335009.html
Beacon Journal sportswriter on the “new” offense being implemented
Kimble_79 - May 20, 2010
Reading that makes it sound like it is still Daboll’s offense, probably with a few details from Holmgren/Haskell sprinkled in like many here have predicted.
It sounded to me like Delhomme was talking about “the” west coast offense in general. Granted, a large part of what (should) differentiate between (good) NFL offenses is terminology and the playcalling. I would be surprised if playbooks in the NFL didn’t have almost every pass play ever designed in them.
If we start throwing on 3-step drops more often, the media is going to call ours a west coast offense no matter what anyone says.
rufio - May 20, 2010
That was my thoughts as well. Just some minor tweaking of the playbook. No major changes to a whole new system.
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
I’d bet an nfl playbook basically has almost every decent pass concept in it and probably every variation of the 6-7 basic running plays you can call out of I-form or single back. I think the main difference is how you name.
jaws. - May 24, 2010
Right…the terminology, and your own blend of playcalling…just like I said.
rufio - May 24, 2010
The big news here is Brian Daboll’s weight loss.
golanbatrac - May 20, 2010
you are always very good at weeding out the noise and finding the important news.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
Just for Dorn:
;)
gahnki - May 20, 2010
Haha I saw that, and felt like it was time to eat crow, but I’ll wait until the season starts.
Roger Dorn - May 20, 2010
Apparently they are moving all of them everywhere.
rufio - May 21, 2010
which is kind of cool
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
On paper.
danvail - May 21, 2010
yeah, who knows how it ends up working, but it at least sounds interesting in may.
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
What´s Your Take?
Are you a fan of significant flip of flopping of positions and teams? Prolly no harm in intial OTAs – but when does it start to matter? I think we can all agree that the QB situation last year was idiotic – is it important with other postions as well?
realmccoy - May 22, 2010
Versatility is good at other positions. If we move guys around, we need to make sure
1. we actually use them there as to not waste practice time and
2. we are smart about using people’s skills.
rufio - May 22, 2010
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