Contracts of players in the Cleveland Browns secondary was the topic of the day, as the amount of CB Sheldon Brown's signing bonus and the demands of S Abram Elam were revealed.
First off, regarding Brown, according to the Plain Dealer, the cornerback was given a $5 million signing bonus. Brown's contract was not extended; it was only renegotiated. Brown should be in action when the team starts their offseason training activities (OTA's) next week.
One person (among others) who probably won't be at the voluntary OTA's though is Elam. On his website today, Elam stated that he was seeking a multi-year deal:
I was tendered at second round level by the Browns but at this point I am weighing my options in hopes of receiving a multi-year deal. I am praying everything works out for the best. As of right now my focus is on training and continuing to improve as a player.
I don't envision Elam's hopes panning out, and he didn't have enough of an impact last season to prove that he was invaluable to the team. If Elam gets a multi-year deal, it'd have to be the Browns getting the bargain, which I'm sure isn't what Elam is aiming for. I suppose he doesn't have much to worry about when it comes to his position though: he's the only starting safety returning from last year, Mangini is still in charge and he's the guy who acquired him, and there really isn't anyone on the roster who is even an option to compete for Elam's spot.
0 recs | 653 comments
I wouldn’t mind throwing him a bone, but nothing more than half a small one.
Brownie's Year - May 12, 2010
agreed. although we need him, i hardly see him being in a position to demand a lot.
Dawg Nuts - May 12, 2010
So this is why we drafted two safeties.
Bernie19Kosar - May 12, 2010
Elam is in a lose-lose situation.
Asante’s at home licking his lips.
SpecialBrownie - May 12, 2010
Jerome Harrison appears to be taking the same stance, I’m sure that played a part in us trading for Hillis and probably drafting Hardesty too.
The same can be said for bringing in Chris Gocong and Scott Fujita: we have leverage against Matt Roth and D’Qwell too.
Bumblyjack - May 13, 2010
I don’t know that Gocong really affects those two, seeing as he hasn’t been all that great thus far in his career.
AG7 - May 13, 2010
give him 2 year deal, he’s just a stop gap for Asante/whomever else anyways.
BrutalMovement - May 12, 2010
A 2 year deal, sorry
BrutalMovement - May 12, 2010
Glad to hear he is staying focused in his training despite the contract situation. He should know he isn’t worth a lot, and if he does I wouldn’t mind signing him for 3-4 years.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Also, the right time to make Brown happy due to the lack of cap.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Bingo about sheldon. I’d pay elam but only if i felt like I was giving him good money for a depth player / special teamer. If we really want to improve our secondary, go out and get OJ Atogwe and we might be on the right track.
jaws. - May 13, 2010
I´m not going to take the bait here, I like Elam.
Your reversal of reverse psychology, expected to end in Elam reading it as positive in the end if he trusts you, but actually indicating how you´re all equally clever, and playing at Elam being lamely optimistic, is weird.
I also realize that wishing well is not your approach in dealing with other franchises, you are dealing favors, requesting favors to be returned at your volition eventually. It´s the same air of suave head office expertise, yet fake blue collar sensibility, that turns off so many people around here. Oooh Sheldon Brown is so great, and like good thing no one realizes his contract costs so much, and sucker the front office into getting more redeemable scout player value estimates you can bargain with, to force an alignment in the depth chart.
mooncamping - May 13, 2010
I can’t tell whether you’re insulting me, someone else, or nobody at all.
Chris Pokorny - May 13, 2010
umm what
I feel like I just watched that scene from “The Princess Bride”… is there poisons in both of the cups?!?!?
Gabe Durrant - May 13, 2010
…I’m dissapointed that you’ve seen said movie let alone that you can recall scenes from it as well…
SpecialBrownie - May 13, 2010
What are you on about? That movie is phenomenal!
Adrock2099 - May 13, 2010
Purple Blasphemy.
SpecialBrownie - May 13, 2010
Prepare to die!
golanbatrac - May 13, 2010
Yeah you’re crazy. AWESOME movie!
Andrew Tolliver - May 13, 2010
That movie is the
North Coast Flea - May 13, 2010
expletive
North Coast Flea - May 13, 2010
No more rhymes, and I mean it.
doggrad87 - May 13, 2010
Anybody want a peanut?
North Coast Flea - May 13, 2010
its on right now.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
Can anyone? Dorn seems pretty good at deciphering him.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Dorn speaks fluent Moon.
Bernie19Kosar - May 13, 2010
haha
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
thats just because moon has a bit of a man crush on dorn
notthatnoise - May 13, 2010
No, I don´t. He just has the misfortune to be recognized as an authority figure, and thus coercable through displays of respect and professional admonition.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
You should write for SNL.
danvail - May 14, 2010
Lol.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
They want people watching the screen, not looking at their dictionaries.
Brownie's Year - May 14, 2010
Says the guy who has to bust out the dictionary to watch Blue’s Clues.
golanbatrac - May 14, 2010
HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH
Brownie's Year - May 14, 2010
I’ve had it with your shit. Go ef yourself and leave me alone you efing prick.
Brownie's Year - May 14, 2010
Ah, the old witty retort….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 15, 2010
Rec for the delayed response.
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
Wait, did you just laugh at his joke then cuss at him?
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
20 minutes apart
notthatnoise - May 15, 2010
It was a over exaggerated laugh. That comment stuck with me. It’s what he wanted. I’ve avoided confrontation with him for so long that I can’t hold my tongue anymore. I’ve asked him to stop but he kept trying to climb the fence until he finally made it over. Everyone here knows I’m a dick and he’s about to experience it first hand. Let the games begin.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
gahnki - May 15, 2010
And it take a real life pussy punk to personaly attack someone on the internet.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
bross09 - May 15, 2010
You talk crap, recieve crap, then cry for hours about it. You can shut your mouth.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
okay…just saying…look sometimes some of the insults you do say.
first of all, that phrase is funny b/c it is personally attacking someone for personally attacking others and calling them a name…
second of all, its not like you never attacked anyone really.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
He should check my hypocrite comment again.
Simmsinns - May 16, 2010
gahnki - May 15, 2010
When someone is ticked off you guys like to push him to the top to get him as pissed as possible. You’re all keyboard warriors who cant say shit in real life so you come on here and think you’re better than the next guy. I’m totally sick of it.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
Rec for keyboard warriors. Haha that’s awesome.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
I believe the door is that way.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 15, 2010
You sure about that, big guy?
rufio - May 16, 2010
there are a lot of former football players here, I’m sure we could say shit in real life.
notthatnoise - May 16, 2010
You know what…. My dad died last night, I’m being a jerk, i really don’t need to be here. I’m taking a break. Going to Cleveland for a week. I’m out.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
Breaks are good.
My condolences.
golanbatrac - May 15, 2010
Sincerely sorry about your father.
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
Sorry about your father.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
I walked in and saw this. Thanks, I appreciate it. Things haven’t been good this year. Me keeping this to myself and being on edge probably wasn’t the best thing. It is what it is. Thanks guys.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
Kimble_79 - May 15, 2010
I understand a lot more where you are coming from now, and am sorry if we ever got into our shouting matches. I sure wasn’t the most polite guy on the block when my mother died.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
Sorry
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Sorry to hear that about your dad.
emily522 - May 15, 2010
Sorry to hear about your father. My prayers are with you and your family.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
Sorry about your loss. Take the time, and be well.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 15, 2010
my condolances. I can understand how you would be pissed and may need a place to vent. I am sorry if at all my response above I posted a couple minutes ago sounds like I am being a jerk.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
No worries, bross. I know we don’t hate each other. Thanks for your words bro.
Brownie's Year - May 16, 2010
yeah. your welcome. I have gone through shit years like you sound like you are going through. I did lose a parent too…It was 5 years ago but it still hurts sometimes. I can understand the pain you feel now…I dealt with it differently, more introverted and went into depression instead of anger.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
I am sorry to hear that.
Bernie19Kosar - May 16, 2010
So sorry to hear that dude.
North Coast Flea - May 16, 2010
Thanks a lot guys.
I’m flying out to Cleveland later today then meeting my mom and sisters in Rocky River. Everyone just so happened to be there for visits these past couple weeks and I didn’t go with them. Lucky me, eh?
At least my uncle is gunna take me to my first Indians game at Jacobs.
Brownie's Year - May 16, 2010
Best wishes, BY.
rufio - May 16, 2010
Rec for using the proper name of Jacob’s Field.
danvail - May 16, 2010
you mean Prog….Wait…yeah, Jacob’s Field. I don’t acknowledge the other name.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Sorry about your loss.
danvail - May 16, 2010
i’m getting here late Brownie, but very sorry for your loss. hang in there.
Dawg Nuts - May 17, 2010
This sentence cracked me up.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Hahaha. The fist pump is awesome.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
I am susceptible to flattery.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
Hey, you’re an authority figure now! Congrats!!
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
Just roll with it.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
Ok, then he´s not an authority figure. But he´s reliable.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Awesome. I smell a campaign.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
I think he was talking about Chris saying Elam doesn’t have much hope for getting his wishes because he didn’t have a good year and then saying his spot is secure on the team. Not sure about the last part.
Villeslgr - May 13, 2010
Yeah, come on guys. If I´m expansion, I steal him from you guys, for allowing him to be derogadated.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
Okay, I’m making an official request for a moon glossary…
danvail - May 14, 2010
If you need a glossary, you’re not the target demographic.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 15, 2010
What´s a glossary?
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
This made me laugh a lot.
danvail - May 16, 2010
Same.
emily522 - May 17, 2010
You know, trying to decipher that paragraph is like trying to disect Jello. Who knows where to start and in the end it’s probably not worth it anyway. :-D
dawgtribe - May 14, 2010
Nice.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
this describes moon perfectly.
bross09 - May 14, 2010
I don´t even want to imagine why someone would want to disect Jello. Funny.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
That´s not my style, you should know by now.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
moon????
what in the hell did he just say,just like chris p. i am confused on that 1
ronbo714 - May 14, 2010
Ok, I thought it over, and realize my comment is a bit crude, so sorry. But come on guys, Abe Elam did really good last year.
mooncamping - May 13, 2010
I would be all for giving Elam a multi-year deal. I hope he isn’t expecting something big though monetarily. His play is only worth an average starting safety salary. However, maybe the Browns should wait to see how the rookies fair this year first.
Did I just argue opinions with myself?
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
That’s some swagga
Elam wants you to turn his Mic up!
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
Ok, so if you´re not totally committed to him, what´s the thing to do, in extending his contract, without making him hard to sign?
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
I think Elam is replacement level type player.
Bernie19Kosar - May 13, 2010
Seeing as we didn’t bring anyone in aside from two rookies, I think we almost have to try to get something done for him. If Ward’s injury issues flare up and Asante doesn’t pan out, we would be back to a Mike Furrey situation.
AG7 - May 13, 2010
Elam pretty much has to sign the tender at some point. All these RFAs can either sit out the year and get paid nothing or sign their tenders.
Long term, I would love to have someone better than Furrey or Sorensen along with Ward and Asante, even if both end up being great (which is unlikely).
rufio - May 13, 2010
Furrey is a Flanker.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
That’s FREAKY flanker.
danvail - May 14, 2010
Sure, moon. Sure.
rufio - May 14, 2010
You are very wrong then.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
He has played in 60 games and has one INT.
R-E-P-L-A-C-E-A-B-L-E
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
I would agree he is replaceable, but the Browns failed to bring in anyone with NFL experience. I say get him a deal and allow the two safeties we drafted this year to develop and eventually take over his PT.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
When I first came onto this forum, I told you how classic safeties are, some of you may remember. I said they are miniature 3-4 type linebackers, the outside linebacker is quick, limber, and has the proverbial “knack” for coiling and uncoiling into tackling a guy, they tackle with authority and display an almost alpha like quality in downing the ball where they want it. The inside linebacker is strong and unforgiving, ceeding no space, often proportioned “squarely”, he can move equally well forward, backward, sideways and diagonally. When they tackle it´s more of a thumping hug.
Got all that? The free safety is a miniature outside linebacker in the mold described, and the strong safety is a miniature inside linebacker in the mold described.
Abe Elam is perfect as a miniature inside linebacker in the described mold, perfectly suited to be that type of strong safety.
Why intercept the ball, if the offense is moving how you want it to?
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
In those terms, remember, I also called it when Nate Ness was in camp, being perfectly suited for the mold described, to fit a miniature outside linebacker at classic free safety.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
… This was my fault. I should have known.
Bernie19Kosar - May 15, 2010
I don’t think that applies to last season as the offenses moved ho they wanted to against our D.
North Coast Flea - May 15, 2010
I’m pretty sure the offense moved the safeties, linebackers, and corners wherever they wanted them to go last year. I don’t think it was the other way arouhd
Kimble_79 - May 15, 2010
The decision the player makes given a set of circumstances perceived on the field, places him, where we then perceive them to go.
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
Wait…what?
North Coast Flea - May 16, 2010
then our “perception” was way off
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
it wasn’t that its crude it was that it was not very correct or accurate.
bross09 - May 13, 2010
Could be. Could not be.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
Our RFA’s are acting like a bunch of babies. They have no negotiating leverage this year given the circumstances and need to accept that fact. Sorry guys, you played for a 5-11 team, no one is chomping at the bit to give up draft picks for you.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
They’ve probably been through a lot, and NFL teams expect players to take pay cuts when they underpreform. Then they got kinda screwed out of being free agents (having leverage) for an additional year. Then they see the Browns live up to old regimes’ promises and sign Cribbs’ contract.
I don’t fault them for being upset, they are destroying their bodies for us and they won’t be able to do this for very long, they should look to get all the money they can. I do think they will have to get over it enough to sign their tenders, and that they should get in camp.
rufio - May 13, 2010
The only people that the players should be pissed at is the NFLPA.
They agreed to this. They hired a complete moron. I understand why they are pissed, but they only have themselves to blame.
Bernie19Kosar - May 13, 2010
Yea. My thing is that every single team in the NFL has a number of RFA’s and these guys are no different than the others. They might even be in even less of a bargaining position playing for a terribly ranked defense (since most of the RFA’s are on that side of the ball.) I see this going nowhere and eventually they will just have to sign the tender and show up.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
Bingo.
Bernie19Kosar - May 13, 2010
If I´m expansion, and you´re derogadating your own players for losing, I´m taking:
Mike Furrey
Mohamed Massaquoi
Evan Moore
Eric Steinbach
Ryan Tucker
Eric Wright
Abe Elam
That´s half the new team, but who cares?
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
No one is derogodating, deriding, or otherwise denigrating Eric Wright. Or Steinbach. Or Massaquoi. Or Moore.
Tucker retired and would be suspended for the first half of the season if he decided to reverse that decision.
danvail - May 14, 2010
Oh, my freaking ears! It’s derogating, as in disparaging or detracting.
dawgtribe - May 14, 2010
Wow, those meanings, could cause quite the split in your logic. I´ll try to use computable words from now on.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
+1 for the ‘mooncamping is an AI’ theory!
Seriously, just be you, moon. You’re an individual and they’re always trying.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 15, 2010
Vickers may be the only one out of this group that has a leg to stand on. I do not think any of the others have any reason to demand extended multi-year contracts. None of these have proven to be indispensable players to the team. Thus the 2nd round tenders.
I don’t see the running game working nearly as well as it did at the end of the year without Vickers though. However, if we truly are incorporating a WC style of offense, then Vickers job becomes less of an impact on the team as well.
I personally like to see a pro-type formation, double tight ends, with two receivers, and one tailback. The options available to run and/or pass from this formation keeps D’s on their heels. That is provided that you can pass from this formation, which remains to be seen from the Browns.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
Traditionally, “the WCO” involved two backs who could catch the ball out of the backfield. Vickers would be one of those. If one of those backs is Harrison and the other is Hardesty, you have already tipped your hand as the offense.
Obviously, you can pass out of any formation with any personnel, but just because Vickers is a great blocker doesn’t mean he would be useless in a WCO.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Correction my man. I never said he would be useless. However, his role would be diminished in a WC vs say a standard power running type set.
My backfield, if I had to have two backs on the field, would probably be Hillis and Hardesty with a sprinkle of Harrison thrown in. Vickers would be utilized for short yardage only. This is all dependent on Hardesty playing up to the hype though.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
He would still have a chance to make an impact.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Yes, but not useless. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn’t saying that.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
Vickers is no Marshawn Lynch, Leonard Weaver, Ron Dayne, Steven Jackson or Larry Johnson. But just for experimentations sake, he could take a shot at the Freaky Flanker position.
mooncamping - May 14, 2010
You are correct he is no Marshawn Lynch; which is likely because he is a FB sir.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
Sir is nice, but it does nothing to undermine your point.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
I think you worded that wrong. Maybe that it did undermine my point?
AG7 - May 15, 2010
Well whatever it was, it´s unimportant, no?
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
More or less
AG7 - May 16, 2010
MC is on today.
It’s a good day.
danvail - May 16, 2010
That is a strange list of comparables. Ron Dayne? Really?
Chief Wahoo - May 14, 2010
Moon expects his fullbacks to run like Heisman winners. Don’t derogadate him for your own low expectations.
gahnki - May 14, 2010
Fair enough. You know, I do love me some Wisconsin Ron Dayne. He was a bowling ball back then.
Chief Wahoo - May 14, 2010
Yeah, he was impressive.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
his ass is phenomenal.
Dawg Nuts - May 17, 2010
I’d like to put some Barbeque sauce on that behind!
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
I’m going to be honest; I have no idea who Leonard Weaver is.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
FB for the Eagles that the Browns wanted to sign.
Bernie19Kosar - May 15, 2010
He’s a beast. Probably the best FB in the league last season.
Simmsinns - May 15, 2010
Yeah, Leonard Weaver is who I envisioned at the Freaky Flanker position, if you could get him to stop cringing at balls thrown to him.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Why would you want a FB at freaky flanker? Why not a faster guy to create mismatches and separation?
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
I regret that decision almost immediately!
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Some of these big guys, and they are a rare species, can bag these little guys in terms of acceleration and even speed.
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
People don´t like it, but they can move more weight faster, than the little guys move little weight.
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
Wow, what the hell was I doing that I didn’t see him play or hear about him?
AG7 - May 15, 2010
Leonard Weaver was a walk-on with the Seahawks a few years ago. He made a name for himself in camp, but never saw the field. He did have a few highlights in expansion, where he absolutely exploded on sweep pattern and absolutely unloaded on some poor guys, hence the not so attractive nickname “face-cleaver”. But under Holmgren he never made it into the starting line-up, he was a well kept secret. The Eagles nabbed him the moment he was unprotected, and to make sure he would stay, gave him a pretty hefty salary for such an unproven player. He did alright in action, but in a way, he has yet to fulfill his promise.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=sMZ695sfUiU
mooncamping - May 17, 2010
Exactly. He was never offered a scholarship
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
There was an article about how he persevered through college, it was in the positive. Sorry to say, I don´t remember the details.
mooncamping - May 18, 2010
Get the Feeling..
Anyone get the feeling that albeit a small begininng something better is happeneing in Cleveland? Quarterback is a major hole. How things are ranked as I see them currently and also as we stood week 1 of 2009:
Quarterbacks C (at best) Beginning of 09’ D-
Running Backs C+ Beginning of 09’ D-
Tight End D+ Beginning of 09’ D+
Wide Receivers D (actually more of an incomplete) in 09’ D
O-Line B- Beginning of 09’ C+
D-Line D Beginning of 09’ D+
Linebackers D- Beginning of 09’ F
Cornerbacks D+ Beginning of 09’ F
Safties D Beginning of 09’ F
Punting C+ Beginning of 09’ C+
Kicking B Beginning of 09’ B
Return men A Beginning of 09’ B (found out at the end of 09 what we had)
Special teams B+ (overall our strength) Beginning in 09’ B
Coaching C- (some may think that is high but again I would give an incomplete based on lack of talent and a learning curve with the players)
Organization D+ (this time last year is was an absolute F)
This team has markedly improved from week one of 2009.
The team will not solve the quarterback problem till 2011 earliest, probably 2012
Need a top receiver, an outside pass rush, a linebacker that can put pressure on an offense, and a top notch saftey. A tight end is necessary but will develope with a better runnning game and good quarterback play.
I know it seems small but at points in 2009 this team was in a hole that may have taken a decade to recover. Honestly I can see this team winning 6 games at minimum this year. It is a start. The quarterbacks coming out this year from college may be something the Browns take a chance to build the future around. McCoy is just too small and arm is not able to make up for it. Thoughts?
champion64 - May 13, 2010
I disagree with nearly every grade for this year.
QB C+ (I don’t see Delhomme playing anywhere near as poorly as last year.)
RB B (If Jerome resigns.)
TE C+ (With the addition of Watson and Smith, and a breakout year from Moore, this could end up being an an B.)
OL B
DL C
LB B (And given that Rob Ryan is our DC and that he has more to work with this year, this LB corp could look phenomenal.)
CB C+ (B+ by the end of the year.)
S D (C+ at the least by the end of the year.)
Punting B
Kicking A+
Return man A+++++
Special teams A+
So maybe I’m overly optimistic.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
I kinda believe that Delhomme could have a great year, but I don’t think he can get it done with our receivers.
The Licensed Pessimist - May 13, 2010
I think and hope and hope our WRs can surprise everyone.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
I am expecting Robiskie to look a lot better. I hope he was swimming in the playbooks last year as Massaquoi seemed to say recently.
rufio - May 13, 2010
Best case:
Brian Robiskie = Miles Austin
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
Worst case:
Brian Robiske= Brian Robiske
SpecialBrownie - May 13, 2010
I would really hope he made some improvement over last year.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
rufio - May 13, 2010
Brian Robiske=
Donte StallworthKimble_79 - May 13, 2010
that was not at all how i thought I had that setup to display. ha
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
Never underestimate the “PREVIEW” Button.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
Honestly, I don’t even think we should speculate this happening.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
Stallworth was decent during the 3 games he played for us when he was healthy.
rufio - May 14, 2010
24 yds/game for the Browns. I would call that awful.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
For $10M, yes it’s awful.
danvail - May 14, 2010
I miscalculated using the games he started. He played in 11 games giving him 15 yds/game. 1 TD on a 4 yard pass.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
And now he’s a killer and Raven.
danvail - May 14, 2010
It was a joke. Being healthy for 3/16 games is pretty awful too.
What is Steptoe’s YPG?
rufio - May 14, 2010
Prob worse.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
11.4
Wow. He started 5 games.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
Austin is a burner
TheRealSlimShady - May 14, 2010
Say what you will about his timed speed, Robi got behind CBs that ran 4.31s in college.
rufio - May 14, 2010
key point
The Licensed Pessimist - May 14, 2010
did he get slower in the NFL?
notthatnoise - May 14, 2010
Don’t you know? Athletes always lose speed between the ages of 21 and 23.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
No, Rocland has just noticed that they lose speed whenever they put on a Browns uniform.
rufio - May 14, 2010
annnnnnd rec
danvail - May 14, 2010
Maybe it´s an spectator psychology effect. Like mud moving on grass?
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Sorry, not an…a
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Speed does not degenerate, it relates to how our nerves serve our temperament.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Most CBs in the NFL can flat out fly. The speed of the game is different in college than in the NFL.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
My point is that these same guys who he beat deep in college are now in the NFL and ran great times.
rufio - May 14, 2010
Yeah, fly as in flee from contact…cleverly called cover corner in the NFL.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
as rufio said, the guys he burned in college are in the NFL, and they ran 4.3s. very, very few people in the NFL are faster than that, so why is Robi’s speed a problem?
notthatnoise - May 15, 2010
Then why don´t we see foot races, ever?
mooncamping - May 16, 2010
The point is the game film shows he has the skill. Its not about how fast he runs in a vacuum. Its sometimes about technique and sometimes about how fast they run in pads on gameday.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
Yeah, on our youth teams we made the experience, that training without pads and then playing on the weekend, inhibited us.
When we trained with the pads back on, it was a different ball game, lotting us a trophy in the end.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
No, the key point is those same guys who he got behind also ran great 40 times and are now playing in the NFL.
rufio - May 14, 2010
For a lot of them, I prefer the 5 yard dash time.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
His timed speed isn’t the problem, he just isn’t near as explosive and fast as Austin
TheRealSlimShady - May 14, 2010
The issue with Robiskie is going to be his short area burst if anything. At OSU he ran a lot of vertical routes with subtle cuts. He flashed the ability to break hard off of his vertical stems (see his fade-stop for TD) but I wonder about his “explosiveness”. He is talented enough to be able to get open in the NFL.
I don’t think Austin is really the comparison I’d make. I would love for Robiskie to start actually playing and get maybe 600 yards this year.
rufio - May 15, 2010
Watch his highlight reel. He got almost all his catches, through body positioning. Either he had a force field around him, or Tressel had a peace-accord with the opposing teams´ defensive backs.
He´s not fast either. If he wants a future in the NFL, he needs to be an intense studier of the game, and the types of move on the field, that turn average receivers into stellar athletes. He can train to be extremely tough and wily, and go above and beyond in his pursuit of perfection and wins. Then he has a chance, otherwise he´s a fluke.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
It’s a conspiracy!
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
The thought of coaches making peace accords at halftime is hilarious to me.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
This is surprisingly lucid. Are you sleeptyping?
danvail - May 16, 2010
I love Miles Austin as a talent. I think he’s a got very bright future in the NFL.
I also happen to have a bias for players that help me win Fantasy Football championships.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
Yeah, Austin is a sweet competitor.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Forgot WRs. C-.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
I’d go D/D+ for the QB and A- for the OL.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
Only because of the uncertainty I have with the right side I gave the OL a B.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
A-?
Hadnot is gone, Steinbach had a down year and Pashos isn’t much a starter anymore.
I’d raise QB a little bit and lower OL.
The Licensed Pessimist - May 13, 2010
I am probably higher on Pashos and Steinbach than you. Mack and Thomas are really what drives my grade though, we only need the other 3 to be serviceable.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
also not particularly high on Hadnot, I liked Womack better.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
The only things I thought we lost with Hadnot were depth and a little bit of youth.
rufio - May 13, 2010
If he had not been so replaceable, he might still be on the team.
bbstirrd - May 14, 2010
It takes a lot more than 2 great lineman to have a balanced line. They’re definitely a good start, but the other players can’t be liabilities. profootballfocus.com had steinbach as the 2nd worst guard in the league last year and Pashos lost his starting position to a rookie. Womack is servicable but there is still a lot that has to be done for this line for it to be elite IMO.
The Licensed Pessimist - May 14, 2010
Pashos was injured, he didn’t lose his job. I never made the claim that we had a balanced line, I just gave our line an A- because of the qualify of our LT and C.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
joe thomas alone grades the OL at a letter not yet known to man, so aweseome it is known only to joe thomas.
Dawg Nuts - May 13, 2010
The line is also color coded. The only known colors to Joe Thomas are Orange & Brown and not Orange & Brown. There is the color Joe Thomas but that pigment is extremely rare because if anyone is within pancaking distance of extracting the color from Joe Thomas… well, they’re pancaked.
So on the color scale, we’re theoretically Joe Thomas… but we aren’t quite sure.
SpecialBrownie - May 13, 2010
When the Large Hadron Collider was first turned on with the intention of discovering the Higgs boson, or the “God Particle”, it was summarily pancaked by Joe Thomas. He will not be discovered without his permission.
The Large Hadron Collider was offline for nearly a year.
danvail - May 14, 2010
Joe Thomas and Jim Brown walk into a bar. The bar explodes. Cuz no place on earth can contain that level of awesome.
dawgtribe - May 14, 2010
and joe thomas and jim brown exit unscathed.
Dawg Nuts - May 14, 2010
Yeah, you have to realize when the room morphs due to awesomeness being displayed.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
your grades seem pretty arbitrary and are mostly way off base.
for instance, we did not find out what we had at the returner position at the end of 09. Josh cribbs set the franchise record for kick return yardage in 2005. We’ve known how good he is for quite some time.
notthatnoise - May 13, 2010
This is not very accurate IMO. How do you figure CB is only at a D+ after bringing in Haden and Brown? This is only one issue I have with the grades, but this is the most inaccurate.
AG7 - May 13, 2010
have there every been 3 starting rookies in a secondary ever?? 1st and 2nd rounders should definitely start/get significant playing time so we should definitely be looking at Haden and Ward unless the scouting department royally screwed us over, and then if Asante looks good we could have three… this is both exciting and terrifying
sww2109 - May 13, 2010
If Asante is a starter it means he played his way into the lineup which would be a positive.
Roger Dorn - May 13, 2010
Cavs*
As some of you may know, I am a Browns & Indians fan because my Dad is from Cleveland — he left before there were the Cavs. I’m from L.A., however, and when you are from L.A., you are a Lakers fan. Nevertheless, I can’t help but root for the Cavs sometimes in the hope that they will break the curse for the Browns & Indians.
With all that out of the way, let me just say that that sucked. That team looked like the worst coached team I’ve seen — they just panicked when they fell behind by six or seven in the mid-4th. As a long-time basketball fan, and follower of the Lakers, you know that when a team panics, it is over.
I hate to say it, but I think LeBron is gone. And that don’t bode well for Cleveland-sports fans: even those of us who aren’t Cavs fans at all.
*Using the subject line because I think this is so off topic that it makes sense.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 13, 2010
Can we please stop talking about whether or not LeBron is leaving? I just had my heart ripped out, and right after ESPN is of course already making comments about “will this be the last time LeBron takes off a Cavs jersey.” Enough is enough. If he leaves, fine. So be it. But who’s to speculate what his decision will be. Only he, his agent, and his closest friends (maybe) know for sure.
Other than that, I agree with your assessment of the game.
I’m sure as hell glad I haven’t been around for the rest of Cleveland’s woes. I can never truly feel how fans must have felt. But the way I feel now, I can’t even imagine…
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
and can someone please talk me off of this ledge????
bross09 - May 13, 2010
It’s OK man, there’s more to life than basketball. Just think of all those Superbowl winning football teams we ha…. oh wait. Well maybe baseb… dammit.
Fu** it. Jump dude.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
LMAO…REC
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
Correct.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
This made me laugh.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
This is going to sound corny, but I don’t care.
Take pride in knowing that when the going gets tough, you don’t jump onto the bandwagon of another team or whoever is winning that year, etc. People like that will never know what it’s like when “their” team gets a championship. Their fanhood (that isn’t a word, is it? Whatever. It’s almost midnight and I’m exhausted.) isn’t the same as ours. Not even close. It’s a farce.
We’ve been through it all. I wasn’t even alive for the drive, shot, fumble, etc. I don’t remember the Indians losing the WS… I was 5. But just knowing that those happened, it hurts. A lot.
But it will happen one day. Whether it’s the Cavs, Browns, or Indians, one day we are going to hoist that trophy up in the air. People will shut up about the “mistake on the lake” and the heartbreaks, etc. We won’t be the most tortured sports city anymore. We’ll get to buy the champion tshirts and hats. It’s going to happen one day.
And remember: it hurts now, but life will go on. If LeBron leaves,
I’m going to punch a walllife will go on. If the Browns suck this year, life will go on. If the Indians don’t make the playoffs for five more years, life will go on.…I should be a motivational speaker, huh? :)
emily522 - May 13, 2010
Yes, I have a cousin that’s a real lazy ass. I would like to schedule you please.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
No snap, it’s WV. I keed, I keed. Just prepping for November 20th.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
Great job.
Buckeye Brad - May 13, 2010
1000x rec
Thanks Emily.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
someone else rec this damn thing. This is a good spiel. Plus it might make her feel better to have a comment go green on here.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
this is honestly actually what I believe. I was just kinda making a joke with what I said.
I would NEVER root for another team over cleveland. I have been bred a cleveland fan…by the age of 3 all i would say was “art modell sucks” (that…and i always quoted the terminator)
I do agree life will go on. I will be pissed but I will never abandon my team.
bross09 - May 14, 2010
The bandwagon thing is the biggest issue I have.
When the Red Sox won the WS in 2007, all these kids at my school jumped the bandwagon. Same with the Saints this year, the Celtics in 2008, the Steelers in 2009, etc.
Seriously, if the Cavs had won the title this year and all these “fans” started popping up around my school I would’ve flipped out.
It makes me so frustrated.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
yeah. I agree. I rooted for the cavs when we had Trajan Landgon, Bimbo Coles and Jumaine Jones. I do dislike those bandwagon fans but most of my friends are diehard cleveland fans.
bross09 - May 14, 2010
I was convinced Dajuan Wagner was going to be a star.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
I was convinced of that too. his shot looked so sweet.
bross09 - May 14, 2010
I’ve been thinking this for so long now.
Very well said.
C’mon people, if any comment is worth 20+ recs, this is it.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
You are wise well beyond your years young Miss Emily.
doggrad87 - May 14, 2010
Thank you.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
13 recs? Wow! I did not expect to get this much. Thanks guys!
emily522 - May 14, 2010
+1000000000000000
Screw ESPN. Seriously. Showing a montage of Cleveland sports torture during the game, the LeBron is leaving comments, etc. They need to shut up. There’s plenty of freakin’ time to talk about this. Just leave it alone for now.
Agree 1000000%.
emily522 - May 13, 2010
Trust me, it’s sucked. From the mid ‘80s when I started following sports, I witnessed the Drive, the Fumble, the ’97 series (and ’95), and, to a lesser degree, the 07 BoSox coming back from 3-1. But all those teams — with the exception of ’95 Indians — seemed like teams playing their hearts out that got some bad breaks. This was, well, I don’t know. Kinda like the ’95 Indians, but a lot worse coaching and underachieving. Sucks for you guys.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 13, 2010
I started watching the Browns about the same time. I still remember shit flying around the house after the drive from my dad. He was an unhappy camper.
Kimble_79 - May 13, 2010
Seeing them give up at the end like that… I don’t even know what to say.
StuckInPa - May 13, 2010
I just want to disagree with the “to a lesser degree” about the 2007 Indians. That team was really, really good — they tied the Red Sox for the best record in baseball and had two excellent starting pitchers. That team was much better than the ‘97 team that lost the WS. Blowing a 3-1 lead in the ALCS was simply awful. I know it wasn’t the World Series, but they would have almost certainly beaten Colorado if they got there.
Buckeye Brad - May 13, 2010
I couldn’t stop thinking to myself, “What the heck are the Rockies doing here?”
StuckInPa - May 14, 2010
Yeah, there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Tribe would’ve beat Colorado in the Series.
The first sports game I ever watched was the double overtime playoff win over the Jets. Aside from beating the Stankees in the playoffs, nothing has ever come close to that since.
dawgtribe - May 14, 2010
Even when they’re bad, the Rockies are always a dangerous team.
golanbatrac - May 14, 2010
its that stadium, its nuts.
notthatnoise - May 15, 2010
Not so much any more. The humidors, or whatever they use, seems to work; you don’t see such outrageous numbers at Coors Field any more.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
I wasn’t even talking about the Homeruns. They’re dangerous the way the Giants and Padres are dangerous. Cavernous stadium, lineup full of gap hitters, good defense. Add to that the difficulties visiting pitchers have getting their breaking ball to break in the thin air (especially come the post season when the air is both thin and cold), and you’ve got a recipe for an upset.
golanbatrac - May 15, 2010
Aerodynamics are just not the same up here.
rufio - May 16, 2010
“humidors”? As in the airtight boxes or environmentally controlled rooms that keep cigars fresh? If that’s the case then lets install like 100 of them at the Jake! The Tribe needs a whole lot of help this year.
dawgtribe - May 17, 2010
Yeah, they do it to trap moisture in the baseball. Makes it heavier.
That would probably be really bad for the tribe, seeing as how most of their struggles are offensive.
danvail - May 17, 2010
How would that help the Indians? We need more scoring, not less.
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
Re the 07 team, I guess it just wasn’t as big a heartbreak to me as the other things mentioned, but yes it hurt. And it was definitely a better team than the 97 team (but the 97 team was so much closer to it all — the closest any Cleveland team has ever been since before I was born). And man, the 97 series was a great series.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 14, 2010
I agree.
I like to refer to the 2007 ALCS as “The Street Sweep”
It’s not a sweep by any means, but Boston did turn around from a 3-1 deficit and “street sweep” us 3 games in a row.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
It was heartbreaking. That was the big Indians disappointment that I remember.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
What made it especially crushing was the failure of the team to pick up where it left off. The 2008 Indians sucked, and with their failure came the realization that we were headed for another multi-year drought instead of another 2007.
danvail - May 14, 2010
ESPN can eat me.
Every single time something bad happens to Cleveland, they bring out the same damn tape.
ESPN New York has a countdown to NBA free agency.
ESPN Sportscenter just showed a montage on why LeBron should go to the Bulls, Knicks, Nets and Clippers. Really? I somehow missed the montage when the Heat got bounced.
Again, ESPN can eat a fat one.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
Didn’t LeBJ call his teammates "the other ones"? He’s on a team that has a FO that will do everything for him and he’s not happy. I think he want’s to leave.
Brownie's Year - May 14, 2010
I understand that he must be frustrated having not won a finals, but honestly why go anywhere else? If he leaves, he’s going to go through the same process of finding pieces and parts to put around him, and it’ll take a while to find the right fit. We are literally a move or two away from finally winning one. If he’s about winning like he says he is, why the hell would he even consider leaving?
AG7 - May 14, 2010
+10000
emily522 - May 14, 2010
My take on LeBron leaving. Wrote this on FTS:
emily522 - May 14, 2010
I think Chicago has the only real chance to sign him.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
If the Bulls snag Calipari, it might be a lock.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
I think the Cavs need Phil, Calipari or Coach K.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
Any of those guys would be nice; I think Pop would be great too.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
not sold on Calipari as a coach and not a recruiter…however I would definitely take him over brown if it means lebron also staying.
bross09 - May 14, 2010
I really don’t think Coach K is leaving.
I hope the Cavs are asking LeBron who he wants as a coach right now.
rufio - May 15, 2010
I’ve got the solution to our problems: Fire everyone in the front office to clear up some cash and have LeBron pick his team and coaches. He can start looking at tape of players entering the draft and drawing up plays now and we would be set come next season.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
LeBron = Player/Coach
Bernie19Kosar - May 15, 2010
I wouldn’t want this, but I have no problem giving him whoever and whatever he wants in the entire organization.
And we don’t need to clear up cash because Gilbert is filthy rich.
rufio - May 15, 2010
Understood; it was more of a sarcastic statement than anything else.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
It’s kind of pathetic though that we would be willing to accept a scenario similar to that.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
I would accept a lot of things to have LBJ stay.
rufio - May 16, 2010
Cal’s teams are only good because he illegally recruits. He can get the players there but he never really does anything with players improvement-wise
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
I don’t see how that is at all relevant in discussing hiring him as an NBA head coach. The fact that his players love him and that he did as well as he did with Memphis (if they had the ability to hit free throws, they would have won it all) speaks to his talent as a coach.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
He’s saying that Calipari is good at bringing in talent but not good at coaching them once they get there. That would be very relevant to an NBA job, because in the NBA you can’t just win because you have better talent, you have to actually know how to strategize and make in-game adjustments.
I think Coach K would do great in the NBA. I’d love to get him to the Cavs but I don’t know if he’d leave Duke.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
Nailed it.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
And I’m saying you can’t do as well as he did simply by taking high school talent and letting them go. He’s obviously doing something right. No one makes it as far as he has in his career without being a talented coach.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
This is false!
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Calipari is very good at recruiting. College talent an pro talent are entirely different ballgames.
See: Butch Davis.
rufio - May 16, 2010
Pretty much. I’d say no right away to John Calipari.
jaws. - May 16, 2010
You make it sound as if his teams sucked at Memphis. World Wide Wes and Cal’s other connections ensure that his teams are always stacked with talent.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
this….1000 times over.
bross09 - May 15, 2010
This is flat out wrong. He’s sending FOUR freshmen to the NBA this year, and only one of them (Wall, of course) was expected to be a one and done.
bbstirrd - May 15, 2010
Cousins was. Orton and Bledsoe didn’t even have the grades to play next year so they didn’t have a choice.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
I got to tell you TRSS, I am impressed with your knowledge of sports in general at your age.
Kimble_79 - May 16, 2010
Thank you. Anything specific make you say that or just in general?
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
In general, you just seem to be very knowledgeable about sports at your age.
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
Thanks bro. Big East is Beast
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
exactly. I also concur below with Kimble below. I was not this knowledgable at sports when I was your age.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
Two were expected to be one and done.
rufio - May 16, 2010
Orton never did anything though, so it’s hard to give Cal credit on that. (3 ppg)
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
Orton’s biggest problem is that he can’t go more than a minute without fouling. That’s why his minutes were so low (plus he had Cousins and Patterson in front of him). His offensive moves did get much better as the season progressed.
bbstirrd - May 16, 2010
I’ve also heard (and observed) he has big attitude problems.
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
Cousins wasn’t expected to be one and done. It certainly was possible. Living in Lexington, I saw a tremendous amount of player development from all the freshmen – but especially Cousins.
If the knock on Calipari is that he doesn’t develop players, then I would disagree wholeheartedly. If the knock on him is that he isn’t the best Xs and Os coach, then I wouldn’t argue with that.
bbstirrd - May 16, 2010
Xs and Os is the biggest knock, but I don’t think he is very good at developing.
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
D Rose, T Evans, J Wall, D Cousins, and P Patterson would all probably disagree with you.
Just saying…
bbstirrd - May 16, 2010
It’s too bad Patterson didn’t really get much better when Cal came there. And Cousins, Rose, Wall, and Evans were expected to be 1 and done.
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
Patterson was a one-dimensional low post player before Cal got there. With Cal as his coach, he developed his perimeter skills and became one of the better mid range and outside shooters on the team.
Rose, Wall and Evans were all highly touted prospects. And they exceeded their expectations under Cal. Not sure what you’re saying there.
bbstirrd - May 16, 2010
Trust me, I am forced to know a lot about UK. Patterson was a very similar player all 4 years.
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
That’s funny because he was only at UK for 3 years.
bbstirrd - May 17, 2010
Damnit typo. That looks really bad.
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
My memory could be bad but I was thinking Patterson started to develop the shot the year before Cal got there.
Villeslgr - May 16, 2010
Patterson’s first two years combined he was 0-4 from three point range. His junior year (with Cal as coach) he went 24 for 69 beyond the arc.
bbstirrd - May 17, 2010
I was referring to a shot in general, but I stand corrected on his long range shooting ability. Didn’t realize the significant jump from last year to this year.
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
this could also mean he was being used differently.
notthatnoise - May 17, 2010
What expectations did they exceed again?
Villeslgr - May 16, 2010
Maybe exceeded was a poor choice of words. How about succeeded?
Lots of players enter college with high expectations but don’t perform at or beyond expected levels (Avery Bradley at Texas is a quick example – some had him rated above Wall before the season).
bbstirrd - May 17, 2010
Succeeded would be better in terms of individual play, which would probably be the most important factor in terms of those guys getting to the league.
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
I wouldn’t say Rose, Wall, or Evans exceeded expectations. I heard everyone pick Wall as
a) one and done
b) a preseason MOP candidate
c) the #1 overall pick.
All have come true…I would not say he exceeded the expectations…I would say neither did Rose. Rose was ridiculously hyped coming out and same with Wall. I don’t remember the hype around evans so I cannot say if they exceeded expectations but the expectations for the others were ridiculously high but they didn’t exceed them.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
…or they would all just point to the massive amount of talent they all have.
rufio - May 16, 2010
Talent + coaching = player development.
bbstirrd - May 17, 2010
the question is…how much development actually happened of these stars. these guys like Wall and Rose were great coming out, but they were ridiculous in HS too. I saw some natural improvement over the year that came from adjusting to the college game, but I didn’t see a ton of influence by coach Cal.
When you look back at rose’s scouting reports, the glaring weakness everyone saw was perimeter shot. he never really developed that and is starting to a bit this year (but still not good).
I saw more improvement from Tyreke evans in his one year in the pros than his one year in college.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Yes, but they also play 80+ games in the pros. In college, they play around 30 and have restrictions on the amount of practice time. It shouldn’t be surprising that players develop more in the pros than in college.
bbstirrd - May 17, 2010
yes…but at the same time, I didn’t see a ton of development from the one and done guys…
that is the whole point. many people didn’t see much development.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Wall, Cousins and Rose were All-Americans as freshmen. I’d say they did pretty well under Cal.
bbstirrd - May 18, 2010
The point is they could have been All-Americans under pretty much any coach.
Villeslgr - May 18, 2010
Maybe, but that is entirely speculative.
The larger point of this thread is about Cal and player development. If he has a proven track record of players succeeding with him as coach, then why argue that he is no good at developing players?
bbstirrd - May 18, 2010
at the same time, it is entirely speculative to credit john calipari for making 5 star recruits, and the top recruits in the nation look great. if you give credit to calipari for making these guys play well, lets give credit to every coach that took a 5 star recruit, had him play well, and then had them leave…there are a lot out there and many might have not done a ton of actual coaching to get these guys to be good.
bross09 - May 18, 2010
LeBron, Kobe, and KG would have been All-Americans under me in the NCAA. Doesn’t mean I would have done a damn thing to “develop” them.
rufio - May 18, 2010
So how does that prove he’s no good at developing players, as was the initial accusation in this thread?
bbstirrd - May 18, 2010
Even if he doesn’t develop the players, who cares? His goal is to win a national title, and help guys get to the NBA. He has been close to a title and a lot of his players have gone to the pros. He’s a really good college coach.
Roger Dorn - May 18, 2010
Yep. Even if he sucks at development, he is making UK relevant in CBB again. That should make any UK fan happy.
gahnki - May 18, 2010
This is exactly what I am saying.
But I doubt/question his ability to win with a level of talent that is closer to his opponents’, which is what he would have to do in the NBA.
There is no doubting his ability to get it done at the college level.
rufio - May 18, 2010
I don’t think he can coach a pro team for what it’s worth.
Roger Dorn - May 18, 2010
That’s not what we are debating.
TheRealSlimShady - May 18, 2010
It simply proves that there is a lack of evidence that he IS good at developing players.
rufio - May 18, 2010
That’s fair enough, I suppose. But correspondingly there is a lack of evidence that he ISN’T good at developing players too, which is why I interjected in the first place.
bbstirrd - May 18, 2010
so you are asking us to prove a negative with an idea (player development) that is fairly ambiguous? you ask a lot my friend.
bross09 - May 18, 2010
meh
not worth responding to
bbstirrd - May 18, 2010
So you have a problem with someone saying he isn’t good at developing players, yet admit we have a lack of evidence that he has developed players.
rufio - May 19, 2010
I offered up P Patterson as a player whose game he really helped develop this year (see above). I don’t necessarily agree that you can completely discount Cal’s influence on the one-and-doners, but I understand your point that they were good when they got there and they were good when they left. I think it is a bit disingenuous though to give Cal no credit for their successes, seeing as how plenty of highly recruited players do not succeed at expected levels in college.
That being said, this all started with someone saying that Cal’s weakness was developing players, yet no one has offered any evidence for this. I’ve given reasons to the contrary, and we’ve debated those, but everyone is avoiding the initial premise for this whole discussion.
bbstirrd - May 19, 2010
but Patterson didn’t develop THAT much in the ‘09-’10 season that it is sufficient evidence of Cal’s coaching ability.
Patterson developed a semi-effective (at times) 3 point shot and also became a bit more control on D (less fouls), but he was already a pretty well developled player. his points per shot in fact fell with Cal and so did his shooting percentage.
bross09 - May 19, 2010
I attempted to address it in my last comment.
Nevermind.
rufio - May 20, 2010
Or, being 18-21 + time + players who care about their game and their team = player development?
rufio - May 17, 2010
bross09 - May 16, 2010
His style of play is perfect for the type of players he recruits in the college game. The NBA is so different than college basketball though, that it makes sense that all of these college guys can’t make the transition.
Roger Dorn - May 16, 2010
I really don’t understand why any NBA team would want John Calipari…. I mean with the amount of talent he had at Kentucky he should have steamrolled to the title. If you’ve got the first and 3rd picks in the draft you just shouldn’t lose. Sure the guy can bring in the talent but he hasn’t won anything.
jaws. - May 17, 2010
talent isn’t everything in college basketball. I read up on some stuff this year about predicting brackets and trends. Talented teams do well, but talented AND experienced teams do even better. UK had no tourney experience in their players. When they went up against WVU, a tourney-hardened team, they lost (as I predicted). the 2 teams in the championship were not the 2 most talented teams, but were 2 of the most experienced tournament teams.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Yup. Plus, two other big things wrong with that statement. One, the NCAA tourney is one-and-done so upsets happen all the time. We’ve seen plenty of examples of more talented teams lose to less talented teams because of the inherent randomness of single-elimination tournaments. If those teams played a 7 game series like in the NBA then you’d see the more talented team win much more often. But in the NCAA tourney, as we’ve seen many times, any tam can win, and it onlys takes one bad game to knock out a heavy favorite early. That’s not always the coach’s fault.
Secontly, players are chosen in the NBA draft based on their potential, not necessarily their current abilities (which is why Wall will be chosen first over Turner). So having the 1st and 3rd pick in the NBA draft doesn’t mean you had two of the three best players in college basketball that season. We’ve seen plenty of examples of players who did very little in college get chosen high because of their potential, not their college performance, just like we’ve seen great college players get chosen very low in the draft. So it’s really not true to say that Kentucky should have won the tourney because they had (possibly) two of the tops three picks in the draft.
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
I completely agree. the randomness of the tourney does affect it.
I also agree about players being chosen for potential. if it was current abilities it would of course be turner and then everyone else…but they draft on potential. honestly thats why oden went so high…he was still a raw player. That is why BJ mullens was drafted in the first round (or at all)…potential.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
This. Honestly though, if he leaves and we can grab another big name in this free agency, I think we still have a legitemate chance to get to the finals. Granted guys like Wade and Bosh are not as talented as James, but as long as we have a good supporting cast, it’s not unrealistic to think we can get there.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
I’ve felt for awhile the Cavs need a point guard or some more hall of famers. The closest player i can’t think of to compare Lebron to is magic and magic didn’t win without a stellar group of players around him. Lebron worked miracles for his team this year.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
The guys around him aren’t slouches man. Williams was like a half vote away from the all star game last year, Varejao is just insane and Jamison is very talented. The front office has tried to bring in the best out there every year. You can’t have 5 all-stars on one squad, so at some point James/coaching staff need to figure out a way to make it work with the group they have.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
I don’t know if you would be all that impressed by Mo if he wasn’t playing with Lebron. Varejao is talented, but did he start? Not that that takes away from what he brings to the table, Odom comes off the bench as well, but there is a reason he comes off the bench and also Jamison in my opinion was acquired a few years too late.
James needs a legit big man, a guy who can shoot at least 40% from 3, and a competent point guard. In my opinion James has been surrounded by guys who always have the potential to step up and deliver but aren’t guys who you can always count on, which ends up creating a situation where you don’t know what you’re going to get when the pressure hits.
pg – tony parker
sg – mo williams, west? (little unstable)
sf – lebron james
pf – Bosh
c – shaq again? (help me out here)
bench
Hickson
Jamison
Anthony Parker
Varejao
that’s 9, maybe . . .
Lee? (not sure about this one, probably would require too much money to come off the bench)
or keep whoever from your bench this year or grab some flotsam
Sorry i’m not a cavs fan, but I see how good Lebron can be if he can get surrounded by adequate talent
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
crap, the shooter needs to get many minutes, so i didn’t include delonte since he’s under 30
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
Yeah I guess there’s truth to that. It’s just annoying as hell that we bring these guys in and they bust like Jamison, Shaq and even Williams hasn’t been as good as I had hoped. I don’t know that we would have the money to retain LeBron and then bring Bosh in. IMO Varejao needs to be starting and Hickson should be getting alot more minutes come next season.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
The problem is that while all of the guys we’ve brought in are good, they are all the less talented in their matchups in the playoffs except maybe Shaq. And really, this is how we should have looked at all of them when they came to the Cavs.
KG dominates any PF we have on the roster. Rashard vs. our 4s is probably a wash at best. Rondo and Rose tore Mo up. Jameer would have as well. Vince and Ray Allen are way better than Parker. The Lakers dominate us similarly, except maybe at the 1.
The Cavs probably need 3/5 players to be better in every matchup in order to win. Or like 4 straight all-time performances from Bron.
rufio - May 15, 2010
Exactly.
Even though people mention his name, I don’t think people actually realize how good scottie pippen was. I mean the guy was a top 50 player, for whatever that’s worth.
From the infallible Wikipedia.
There’s not a single player, outside of Shaq 15 years ago, that could approach that.
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
And Pippen could always guard his man on the defensive end, too.
The Bulls always had someone who could defend and rebound as a big, a 3 point specialist, and two HoFers.
How much cap space do we have?
rufio - May 15, 2010
Pippen is crazy underrated because of Jordan.
If you read Bill Simmons book on basketball, he has a great note on Pippen. When Chuck Daly agreed to coach the Dream Team, the first player he asked for was Pippen. Not Jordan, Magic or Bird. Pippen.
If he is good enough for Daddy Rich, he is good enough for me.
Bernie19Kosar - May 16, 2010
As much as I hate the Bulls, I gotta respect them. I generally consider Pippen to be the greatest role player in the history of the game. Some people might count it against him that he played with Jordan and that he didn’t step up to be the leader in the way Jordan was after Jordan left. Pippen accepted his role and did it better than anyone else could have.
dawgtribe - May 17, 2010
Sorry, but I was never impressed with Varejao. At all.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Don’t apologize.
Roger Dorn - May 15, 2010
I’m waiting for TRSS to say “I’m sorry” in response to one of these.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
Sorry I didn’t say sorry.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Well done.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
I’m not trying to be a dick, but did you watch the Cavs this season? Varejao is everything that you want as a fan. He made second team all-defense as a bench player, which is incredibly rare, and it’s not like the voters were just like “eh, this guy plays hard, why not vote him.” He is very talented and gives everything he has whenever he’s on the floor.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
He’s one of the best defenders in the NBA. ESPN.com’s John Hollinger, who knows what he’s talking about, named him on his first-team defense. He doesn’t put up big stats but he makes all the hustle plays and can defend multiple positions. He’s a very good player.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
I did sometimes. I wanted them to win it all, but I wouldn’t call myself a ‘fan’
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Well I mean if you don’t watch very often he can come across as a bit of a whiny bitch, but in truth he’s very talented. If he wasn’t with the Cavs I would probably hate the guy because of the way he plays.
AG7 - May 15, 2010
Well I’m entitled to my opinion.
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Who gave you permission?
Bernie19Kosar - May 16, 2010
Is this serious?
TheRealSlimShady - May 16, 2010
Not one bit.
Relax cha-cha.
Bernie19Kosar - May 16, 2010
That’s funny!
doggrad87 - May 16, 2010
I wasn’t saying you aren’t, simply that I can see why you wouldn’t be impressed if you didn’t really watch all that consistently.
AG7 - May 16, 2010
Boo. Love the Andy man.
I guarantee you if Andy played for any other team in the NBA I would hate him.
Bernie19Kosar - May 16, 2010
Same.
OT, but I go to the Yahoo sports homepage and what do I find? A picture of the Big Three with the caption saying: “All together”.
Hey, does that phrase sound familiar to anyone? Grrrrr.
emily522 - May 16, 2010
I think there might be a bit of pressure Lebron feels in Cleveland that he would rather not feel. Not only is he carrying his legacy but he’s carrying his home. That’s a ton of pressure.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
He invites it though, so I don’t think you can factor that in. He knew coming into the league that the city of Cleveland was going to look to him to win us a championship.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
Yeah he invites it, but I think right now he’s just actually really feeling that pressure. Last year, best record, lose, no problem will be back next year. This year, best record, start losing and doubt creeps in. Lebron maybe great but he’s human and humans feel pressure. And your last sentence is spot on.
I think Lebron includes himself in that us, and that is alot of pressure regardless of who created it.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
True. For the most part, James has been stellar, but I’m a bit disappointed in how the last couple of games went. I mean I could live with it if he was throwing his body around, just attacking all night; those moments were few and far between.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
I think James is the player with the most potential in the NBA, but I don’t think that he always takes advantage of his advantages.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
It is a lot of pressure, but he wants to be one of the best of all time, if not the best of all time.
He should view his situation as an opportunity, not as something to be afraid of. That’s the “winning mentality”.
rufio - May 15, 2010
there is going to be huge pressure on him wherever he goes, i doubt that factors into any decision he makes.
notthatnoise - May 15, 2010
I’m referring to different types of pressure. Certain pressures affect people differently. Kind of like those car commercials where the guy is doing all this miraculous stuff at young ages but can’t handle buying a used car.
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
aka fiction?
rufio - May 16, 2010
Well the commercial is fiction.
Some people let certain things affect them differently. All pressures are not the same and don’t have the same weight.
Villeslgr - May 16, 2010
Possibly, but proving this by comparing it to a constructed narrative about a fictional character’s life is hardly convincing.
Pressure to bring the first title to a city in 100billion years is not the same as the pressure to be playing in the same city as Michael or as being NYC’s biggest star, sure.
rufio - May 17, 2010
Yeah your second sentence is what i meant. I just used the commercial because it was something i felt everyone would be familiar with.
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
Are you referring to Shaq calling himself one of “the others”?
rufio - May 14, 2010
In the post game press conference he was already referring to the Cavs as if he doesn’t play for them anymore.
dawgtribe - May 14, 2010
Yeah, what the HELL was up with that heartbreak montage?
ESPN is just happy that they can stop pretending to be rooting for the Cavs. I feel like all of them are closet Boston fans and are now happy that they can (sorry to be vulgar!) suck their d*ck the rest of the playoffs.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
ESPN is in Bristol, CN. It has a huge east coast bias and basically only cares about NY and Boston teams when it comes down to it.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
I thought this was pretty obvious. The only baseball games they ever show seem to be the BoSox.
StuckInPa - May 14, 2010
Don’t forget the Steelers.
North Coast Flea - May 15, 2010
false. I know crap load of Clip fans here.
Brownie's Year - May 14, 2010
The Clippers have fans?
North Coast Flea - May 15, 2010
yes
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
I almost knew the cavs would lose. A basketball championship wouldn’t expunge all those years of losing. I feel like only a cinderella run to the super bowl could really expunge those demons. The NBA just isn’t the same.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
And another thing: did anybody see LeBron’s postgame presser? I mean its like he wasn’t even unhappy with himself and the way the team played. He seemed so calm and nonchalant. I don’t understand it one bit. Its a time like this when I wish we had a guy like Tebow. I want to root for a star player who wants to win just as badly as our fans do and is going to show you how emotionally invested he is. I’ll take the guy who is on TV crying because he knows he disappointed the fans anytime.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
I would like to see some emotion too, but you can’t honestly believe he isn’t upset. This guy wants a championship, and has done everything he can, barring a couple games where he just wasn’t on, to win one. LeBron just isn’t the kind of guy to break down like Tebow. You don’t need to go into a press conference crying to let people know you want it; his performance tonight spoke for itself. Sure we didn’t win, but he gave it all he had trying to get to a game 7 today.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
Did you see his body language?
He is clearly upset and trying to say all the right things.
rufio - May 14, 2010
I don’t see it. He doesn’t seem happy but he just didn’t seem all that disappointed about it. He looked like he just lost a regular season game or something. I don’t understand it at all.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
I believe he was intentionally trying to avoid the kind of behavior that came over him last year (skipping handshakes and media). I still think he was very upset. He’s made it obvious his primary goal is championships, and not getting there hurts every time.
He’s only doing a better job of covering it up this time, as they jumped on him last time for showing it.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
How long have you been watching LeBron?
Sorry he doesn’t throw a fit up there, that’s just not LeBron James. Maybe Tebow will sign with the Cavs.
rufio - May 14, 2010
If you think LeBron doesn’t want to win really, really, really badly then you’re a moron. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh, but there is no other way to put it. He knows that his legacy will be determined by championships. He works extremely hard on his game every offseason to improve himself so he can win a championship. Just because he isn’t crying in the postgame press conference doesn’t mean he’s not hurting inside. Everyone has different ways of showing their feelings. You don’t need to be running around like Tebow yelling at your teammates to show that you care. Plenty of star athletes never acted like that and they were great leaders who won multiple championships. You’re crazy if you think LeBron needs to start crying and yelling at his teammates just to show the fans that he cares.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
That is clearly not what I said. All I’m saying is I don’t understand LeBron. He has said that all he wants to do is win and of course he knows that he has to win titles to be a big star in this league. The thing I don’t understand is how he could know all that and say all that and then come out and lay such a big egg in that series. On top of that the way he reacted after the loss looked to me more like a man who couldn’t believe the celtics didn’t just lay down at his feet than a man who was disappointed in his own play.
It is easy to say that all you care about is winning and the team but it is a whole different thing to actually follow through on that. Nothing about how LeBron played or how he reacted after the game led me to believe he left his heart and soul out on the court, and I cannot possibly understand why given what he has said in the past.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
LeBron didn’t lay a big egg in the series. What do you want him to do, average 45, 20, and 10?
rufio - May 14, 2010
That’s exactly what you said.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
Checkmate.
Villeslgr - May 14, 2010
seriously, is there anything in life on this planet that doesn’t have to do with tim tebow to you?
Dawg Nuts - May 14, 2010
I’m gonna say you’re alone on this one. Listen I’m a huge Browns fan, and I watch Cavs games throughout the season, but I’m not as crazy about basketball as I am about football. Even though I’m not a diehard basketball guy, when the Cavs lost tonight I just felt deflated. We need a championship so badly here. Having a team this talented come so far and fall apart like this just breaks you down. While I would love to see the Browns win a super bowl, I would be just as happy watching the Cavs hoist that trophy.
AG7 - May 14, 2010
Not saying that I didn’t want them to win, of course I did, I sat there and rooted for them every game. I am just saying i had an uneasy feeling that this wasn’t the way the Cleveland curse was going to be broken. I feel like its going to take some sort of “2003 Red Sox” act of heroism with our chosen team (the Browns) to actually break this monstrosity.
Call it a Butch Davis gut feeling.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
I’ll have to agree to completely disagree.
Simmsinns - May 14, 2010
Nope.
rufio - May 14, 2010
I just threw up all over my keyboard when you said you wished we had Tebow over Lebron.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
I’d rather have LeBron on the Browns than Tebow on the Browns. No question about it.
TheDriveStillHurts - May 14, 2010
I can picture this now…
“LeBron James announced today that he will be leaving Cleveland…”
/Fans from NY, LAC, CHI, etc. cheer.
“…the Cleveland Cavaliers, I mean. LeBron has decided basketball isn’t his thing and will be signing with the Cleveland Browns.”
emily522 - May 14, 2010
In the words of Mike Singletary: “I want winners. I want people that want to win.”
When the going got tough, LeBron folded.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
Dan Gilbert’s latest press conference
This is at least sort of what LeBron should sound like after he and his team turned in such a terrible performance. The Celtics didn’t need anything fancy to beat them. The Cavs got out-hustled, out-worked, and out-toughed in games 4,5 and 6. They didn’t play with any pride, didn’t show any guts and it was embarrassing. Boston absorbed their best shot in game 3, and then got up and slugged them right in the mouth in game 4. The Cavs took that punch and just lied there on the canvas seeing stars. They had no heart and no moxie, they rolled over like dogs. I don’t know what to think about professionals turning in such an putrid and uninspired performance. As a fan, I’m disgusted, and as the leader of the team, so should be LeBron. This was exactly the kind of thing that great players don’t let happen on they’re watch. Like you say LeBron had every reason to want to win this series, but between his play and his postgame attitude didn’t show me this is the case.
jaws. - May 14, 2010
Tebow folded against Alabama.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
and then Mr. Tough cried. Sobbed in fact. Tebow is a girl, and he showed his true colors. Go root for Denver.
Roger Dorn - May 14, 2010
But he can do the Gator Chomp in people’s faces when he’s winning, right?
emily522 - May 14, 2010
golanbatrac - May 14, 2010
Sweet fancy Moses, I almost peed my pants over this.
Bernie19Kosar - May 14, 2010
If I ever cry, I want you around, your attitude to crying has salvational qualities.
mooncamping - May 15, 2010
Let me know if you need a shoulder.
Roger Dorn - May 15, 2010
He’s just a sensitive athlete.
Brownie's Year - May 15, 2010
Shut up.
rufio - May 14, 2010
Get your stupid cliches out of here.
LeBron has been in plenty of tough playoff games and tough series and came up big. Yes, he had a bad few games and that’s on him, but don’t act like he doesn’t want to win or he’s not a “winner”. That’s just dumb. Every athlete has bad games, and they don’t all cry at the press conference afterwards just to “show the fans how much they care”. That’s simply ridiculous.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
/cough. 48 points against the Pistons in 2007. /cough.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
I was actually visiting Cleveland when that happened. It was great being in town for the Finals, even though we lost. Cavs shirts were EVERYWHERE.
emily522 - May 14, 2010
I was at LeBron’s 1st playoff game of his career, I even got one of the Nike “Witness” shirts. Every time LeBron touched the ball everyone screamed MVP! The place was electric, and the best part was that we won.
North Coast Flea - May 15, 2010
According to Windhorst’s twitter, Obama has already made a pitch to LeBron to sign with Chicago. Bush. League.
gahnki - May 14, 2010
Oh come on, he’s just a Chicago guy having some fun. If the President was from Ohio he’d be telling LeBron to resign with the Cavs.
Buckeye Brad - May 14, 2010
It’s absolutely unprofessional for a man of his power to offer up any sort of pitch.
gahnki - May 14, 2010
I agree…and not just b/c it is against my wishes as a cleveland fan. if he interfered with another player not playing in cleveland I would consider it unprofessional.
bross09 - May 15, 2010
But he’s not acutally interfering; all he said was that “he thinks LeBron would look great in a Bulls uniform.” What’s wrong with that? He’s a Bulls fan, of course he’s going to say that.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
I just feel its irrelevant to his duties and completely unnecessary. Honestly, its nice that our president likes sports but why does he have to keep going out of his way to show us this? doesn’t he have other things to do?
bross09 - May 15, 2010
Of course it’s irrelevent to his duties, but he didn’t even say it — one of his staff members did.
Also, I think it’s rather silly when people complain that the president — no matter who it is — or some other elected official says something or does something not related to politicas (like filling out a NCAA bracket) and people say “doesn’t he have better things to do”. The guys is a human just like us and he does have interests outside of his job. He’s not going to spend 24 hours a day performing his duties as president. He’s allowed to have some time to do things he enjoys. There isn’t a person on the planet who spends every minute of the day working.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
I do not mind personally the bracket. I also did not know it was one of his staff members saying that. thank you for clearing that up.
bross09 - May 15, 2010
exactly
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
Presidents are people too. Every president I can remember had something he did for fun. It isn’t like he is continuously on vacation or not trying to get stuff done, he is just a sports fan. He can be a fan and do his job too.
And by now, you don’t think sports writers and ESPN are continuously asking him about sports-related things? I doubt he is holding press conferences with the sole intention of announcing what he wants to see in NBA free agency.
rufio - May 15, 2010
Ugh. Relax, Glenn Beck.
danvail - May 16, 2010
what???
The guy is an idiot and a tool.
this is why certain groups piss me off…because I am not on their side I am Glenn Beck…I get this a lot and I disagree with a lot of the opinions he has. I am independent through and through and hate both parties with a passion (whereas he claims to be a libertarian but is sucking on the bosom of the republican party).
please don’t compare me to Beck or Rush again…I will be offended.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
You jumped down the President’s throat over a light-hearted pro-Bulls remark. That’s exactly the kind of crap that makes Fox News pundits in general so f-ing grating.
If you’d like, I could replace it with Sean Hannity.
You should probably do some soul searching, however, and ask yourself why you get compared to Glenn Beck so often.
danvail - May 17, 2010
did I really “jump down his throat”?? look at the comment, it was posted in a very rational tone and I only questioned really the necessity of making a public statement about it.
how is questioning one of the presidents actions as being unnecessary make me like Fox News? is it because i have the balls to speak my mind about him and because I speak ill of our current president, I am like the people at fox?
I know why it is really…its where i live. I live in a very liberal area of cleveland. to put it this way, in our mock elections in middle school, out of 600 kids that voted, 2 voted for bush…more people voted for bob the builder (that was me…never voting for the 2 parties). you know how kids teased you in school…like “haha your hair is stupid”…At my school, the couple kids that were republicans got ridiculed for it.
I have found my old district to be full of people who are liberal and they seem to think that makes them superior to anyone who is not far left because their view is right. they are pretentious and condescending at times too. I get this from my OWN FAMILY. I will just put it out there, I am a moderate…but to part of my family, I am conservative. they said when i went to college and disaligned myself from the Dems “you are ‘conservative’ now? I thought you were supposed to go to college to get smarter?”
Whenever I dislike anything someone on the left is doing, and am in any sort of conversation with people from my old district, they tell me to “go watch glenn beck”. they don’t understand that if I don’t worship the feet of the left, that doesn’t make me a conservative. I dislike what that party does too..a bit more then the left…but I dislike people on that side more.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Parties in general are a bad thing to begin with. Look up Thomas Jefferson’s stance on this. He saw the writing on the wall long before it happened.
I’m an independent myself. I don’t want to start a political debate on here, but I do not care for political parties in general.
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
I agree. I like to look at myself as jeffersonian in many of my views.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
You own slaves?
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
But is he sleeping with them?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
that’s the only way to go, really.
Dawg Nuts - May 17, 2010
why not? I don’t have a problem with black women. they are also beautiful to me.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
So you admit you own slaves?
gahnki - May 17, 2010
no…but I admit if I did, I would have no objections to relations with them b/c of their race.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
It’s probably not a good idea to even continue this conversation. You’ve got to learn when to just let things die instead of taking a joke and dragging it out so it’s not funny any more and becomes inappropriate.
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
Very much so, yes.
danvail - May 17, 2010
yeah…this is getting way too off topic.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Well said, BB. This one was dangerous from the start, but hey, where’s the fun in safety?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
gahnki - May 17, 2010
You’re probably just not drinking enough.
Oh. You mean those parties….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
ha, I’m all for those parties
I just get so sick of hearing the two political sides go at each other and people many times have no idea what they are even voting for, but they know that their respective political party supports it. It frustrates the hell outta me.
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
Understood, really. Blind political faith is always problematic. If you can’t articulate and defend why you believe something yourself, perhaps you should just keep quiet.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
hahaha….
what Kimble said.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
I’m pretty sure that was Washington that warned of parties because I thought Jefferson was in one.
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
Washington was the one that warned about political parties, yes. Not sure if Jefferson did as well.
Roger Dorn - May 17, 2010
Jefferson was against an industrial society. He also famously believed that it would take America 100 generations to develop the Louisiana Territory.
Everything I have read indicates that he accepted political parties, at least as far as their inevitability.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
He also envisioned a revolution every 10 years or so.
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
That’s not true.
danvail - May 17, 2010
Is so. He thought revolutions were an important part to a functioning country. And he thought one should happen every decade or so.
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
He said that every generation needed a revolution. There’s also a lot of ambiguity regarding what constituted a revolution in his mind.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
Context fail. He was talking about the Dutch in Denmark.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
This is also true.
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
There’s a dichotomy of viewpoints here; if you believe that he advocated a revolution every ten years then you accept that every generation will have a new revolution.
If he is solely referring to a specific instance with the aforementioned quote, then he cannot be advocating a revolution every ten years, at least within the context of the specific quote.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I am not familiar with the context surrounding the specific quote from the specific writing, but he uttered similar sentiments in many of his letters, including pontificating on the benefits revolutions in Latin America would hold on the American society.
In any case, I am not claiming that he advocated a periodic American Revolution; in fact, I am arguing the opposite.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I was making a joke at SBs expense. He thought the Dutch hail from Denmark. A drive-by poster smacked him down pretty hard last week.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
Noooo. I knew they didn’t, it was a mistake on my part. And he was convincingly demolished by me and Dawgnuts.
Why the hell am I being attacked today?
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
yeah, we lit him up pretty good. he was way over the top.
Dawg Nuts - May 17, 2010
Not sure about that “convincingly” part . . . .
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
because your geography sucks
Kimble_79 - May 18, 2010
Gotcha. I thought it was odd that he would be referring to a small percentage of Dutch people who reside in Denmark, but who knows?
gahnki - May 18, 2010
This is more correct. Also, a little rebellion is not a revolution.
There is no way you’re going to convince me that Jefferson thought the government should be overthrown every ten years.
danvail - May 17, 2010
well whose to say how long a generation is?
One man’s decade is another man’s century. I may have just thrown in a decade from failed memory retrieval.
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
by the technical definition of “revolution” too, he was the leader of a revolution. a revolution to them was any change in government. although very minor, when another party took power in the US, they considered it a revolution. the term does have a lot of ambiguity in our early history.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
/embarrassed face/
your are right, it was Washington. I was off on that one. Sorry
Kimble_79 - May 18, 2010
And everyone is always doggin’ on KY for our “bad” EDU. ( this is not a blast at WV so don’t take it the wrong way)
TheRealSlimShady - May 18, 2010
I think we are both bad to be honest in that dept
Kimble_79 - May 18, 2010
Eastern Kentucky is terrible, but the western part where I’m from isn’t nearly as bad as everyone pretends. At least I know that my school is really good.
TheRealSlimShady - May 18, 2010
Washington Farewell Address
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
this is pretty long, i will not care if everyone skips it.
I disagree with this. the two-party system exists so that radicalism doesn’t gain power. You can’t win elections consistently with any sort of radical beliefs because you have to appeal to such a large and diverse constituency. This forces both parties towards the center. You could argue this slows progress, but it also slows progress in the wrong direction.
There are positives and negatives to every type of political system. the major positive of the two party system is radical policies have a very hard time making their way into government. This isn’t to say third parties are useless. for instance things like voting for senators were originally central issues of third parties. when those parties gain large support, a major party adopts some of their beliefs in order to draw in their followers.
I’ll give an example of the benefit of having two parties. Imagine a party that campaigns on a radical belief, like bacon should be made illegal. they can muster 15% support, large by third party standards. In a system like Great Britain’s, they would get 15% of parliament. that means people that believe bacon should be illegal get a large amount of national power, because to get anything done the other parties must make coalitions with the bacon haters, and in order to do so must make concessions, such as making bacon a controlled substance. that would not be good.
sorry this is so long and convoluted, i just here “the 2 party system sucks!” all the time from people that don’t understand why it exists (not saying that’s you).
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
typos a plenty!
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
I’m pro-bacon and I vote.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 20, 2010
the 2 party system in the US is not good, it is just the best system out there. Israel has basically the opposite of what we have. they have a multi party system where one or 2 parties are not dominant over a long period of time. however, the problem there is that there is rarely a majority candidate and the government is made up of many different parties so they have to form coalition governments.
there is a growing problem with the 2 parties in american politics. american politics between the 2 parties has become increasingly more radical and increasingly more polarizing. its this drifting away from the middle and polarizing everyone else that is not you that is a problem.
why have independents seemed to have become even more of a key demographic? because now more than ever,
a) parties are polarizing others causing people to vote even more strongly along the party line
b) the amount of independents, many caused by disillusionment from the polarization of both parties, is growing.
the independent vote is as high as its ever been. However, this can be a good thing. with independents trending to soon be a bigger demographic than either party, they will have significant power over political decisions. they will have significant power to elect people and they may be able to use the power to bring the parties back together.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
This is all wrong. The problem isn’t that the two parties have moved too far from the middle, the problem is that both parties are the same (to the point that we’re approaching a one party system).
golanbatrac - May 20, 2010
I agree with this.
rufio - May 20, 2010
But they certainly argue against one another as though they are completely different.
rufio - May 20, 2010
Yeah, there’s little policy difference between the two parties, but you wouldn’t know it listening to what they say.
golanbatrac - May 20, 2010
yes. this is what I was trying to say. I should have said I was talking about it from more of a media sense, instead of a policy sense.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
I’m getting sick of the whole “this guy is worse than me” slogans. I literally saw an 5sec add flash a week or so ago, that simply said, “John Doe is a Liar”. That’s it, no telling you why, or any form of evidence. Simply text saying John is liar. That crap gets really old with me.
Or one I heard on the radio last week, “Jane Doe is trying to kill babies with your tax money, she voted to support the health care bill”. I mean c’mon, seriously, that’s your way of gaining an advantage in a race?
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
The lowest I’ve ever seen a politician go was Joy Padgett in her congressional campaign against Terry Anderson.
golanbatrac - May 21, 2010
I had to google that, sounded like a good one.
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
I think I was looking at this more from a perspective of media instead of actual ideology.
the media polarizes people and has become increasingly radical. however political opinions of many in washington have drifted closer to each other, but they still can’t agree because even though they are getting closer together, they are getting more “segregated” in a way. politicians are less likely to agree with someone from another party, even if they might like the idea, they seem to inherently oppose all ideas of the other party, even though many ideas are fairly similar…the problem is too that many of the ideas politicians have, especially in areas where they have gotten more alike, they have drifted away from what many americans believe.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
well stated
Kimble_79 - May 21, 2010
Israel is such a condensed country, both in terms of population and geography, that their coalition system works for them and has grown naturally. I think criticizing it generally is misguided, although I agree that it would not work in America.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
I agree. In their country it is not a terrible system and can work but it is not at all a perfect system and would never work here (which I definitely agree with)
bross09 - May 20, 2010
I actually kinda like France’s elections where there are a ton of parties that run against each other in one sort-of-primary election, then you choose between the Giant Douche and the Turd Sandwich in the second round.
That way you can have all the diversity and if people really do want to make Bacon illegal (capitalized out of respect for the meat) then they can vote for that party without fear of “throwing their vote away” the first round.
I don’t think there is one “best” way to do it to the point where any country has completely nailed it.
rufio - May 20, 2010
Bill Maher on French elections (NSFW):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS0yISz6xQ
golanbatrac - May 20, 2010
Although that was entertaining, Bill Maher is generally an obnoxious dork.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
The two party system formed how any party based system forms- like minded individuals realize that they can gain from joining forces. Perhaps it has the secondary effect of preventing radicalization, but that was not the intended purpose.
Parties in general were beneficial to Americans during the 18th, 19th, and most of the 20th century because they standardized policies at a time when information was hard to come by. Knowing that someone was in a certain party allowed you to understand their views without having to traipse 20 miles to hear them stump.
In the information age, I am very much of the opinion that parties are outliving their usefulness to the American citizen. They are still inherently valuable to politicians, so they will stay, but the rote repetition of party doctrine is far too divisive and unproductive to be of any real value.
As it is, the two parties are a better option than what the British have (what a mess!), but it would be much better if we could become a politically individualized society.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
this.
I completely agree with your third paragraph.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
of course a politically individualized society would be great, but this assumes the majority of americans are willing to research positions and create an informed opinion. as it stands, I think most of america is either too uninterested or too uneducated for this to work.
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
I do agree with this point. I seem to be one of the few people I know personally that truly researches things like this when it comes to elections. and even I have at times become uninterested because politics just pisses me off at times.
bross09 - May 21, 2010
Plus, people love the simplicity of “us vs them”.
rufio - May 22, 2010
yeah, you can’t underestimate the need to root for a team, even in politics.
notthatnoise - May 22, 2010
One thing’s for certain: you can certainly whine with the best/worst of either party.
danvail - May 17, 2010
This is true.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
sure…I just get pissed when compared to glenn beck. he annoys me a lot…so do most talking heads involving politics (Chris Matthews, Rush, Hannity, etc…)
bross09 - May 17, 2010
I hate everyone on that list with a passion. And Olberman and O’Reily.
They all disgust me.
danvail - May 17, 2010
Cable news = death to me.
Roger Dorn - May 17, 2010
Magazines is where it’s at.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
BBC.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
Ditto. “Special relationship” aside, it is nice to see something that doesn’t automatically place North America at the center of the universe.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
I just like the accents.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I don’t get the channel, but their online content is very good.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
You don’t even receive BBC America?
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I just have basic cable.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
You should look into investing in one of those newfangled transistor radios.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
Zero reception. Too many hills. This is why I bitch and moan when the Browns aren’t on TV.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
Sexy, aren’t they?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 17, 2010
In all honestly, I began reading, watching, and especially listening on the radio to the BBC about two years ago and haven’t looked back. It’s always good to see a detached, although not biased, perspective of American affairs, and I have found their international coverage to be far more broad than American networks. And their accents are actually very easy to fall asleep to, unlike the shrieking of American telecasts.
Really, the only American news media I pay attention to is CNN, and that’s only in a seven and a half minute daily video podcast.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
Harpers, the Atlantic and The Nation. The rest of the American Media is garbage.
golanbatrac - May 17, 2010
It’s pretty sad now that the best news coverage you can find on TV in on Comedy Central with Stewart and Colbert.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
its the nature of the beast that is 24 hour news. their just isn’t that much news to go around, so they stretch stories for all they’re worth. they also don’t pull good ratings, so they are constantly trying to be outrageous.
infotainment.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
I hate NBC
TheRealSlimShady - May 17, 2010
yeah. I agree. I forgot those guys too. O’Reilly though has his moments…but only when he is facing stupider blowhards. I also forgot to include Michael Moore.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
Rachel Maddow was incredibly unprofessional and thus incredibly entertaining on the night of Scott Brown’s election. MSNBC and Fox are great entertainment with their diametrically opposed, yet identical styles.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I guess they are entertaining in their own way…but they really aren’t news.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
It’s only entertaining until you realize that people take them seriously. On all sides, they ruin whatever legitimate point they might have by going for the hyperbolic entertainment angle.
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
bross09 - May 17, 2010
not to get into a huge political argument, but fox literally lies and makes things up. they also have a nasty habit of putting a little “d” next to republican’s names during a scandal.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
my point being, MSNBC may be pretty biased, but at least they aren’t pushing flat-out falsehoods.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
MSNBC is certainly above these things.
Scott Brown is a homophobic racist.
gahnki - May 20, 2010
Like I said, all cable news sucks. Trying to compare them is nitpicking.
Roger Dorn - May 21, 2010
this is different. this is not playing a video of a palin rally then claiming it was a tea party gathering. this is not claiming 6 million participants in a rally when there were 600,000. this is not calling a republican a democrat when he gets caught sending sexual comments to pages.
this is no better than what glenn beck or bill o’reilly do, but it is not a deliberate lie.
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
this is one thing they pushed hard at MSNBC
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-19823-Progressive-Examiner~y2009m8d20-MSNBC-lies-edits-out-black-gun-owner-says-white-people-showing-up-with-guns-threaten-Obama
they do some of the same things that you describe, but not with the frequency of fox.
bross09 - May 21, 2010
This is motherf’’’in false!
TheRealSlimShady - May 22, 2010
and I have found instances that MSNBC has done the same.
neither one is a legitimate news source and both have literally lied.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
I’m sure every news organization has one time or another said something that wasn’t true. But there is one news organization in this country that habitually lies and gives one-sided views of every story, and that’s Fox. MSNBC isn’t anywhere close to Fox when it comes to biased coverage.
Buckeye Brad - May 20, 2010
right. its not like i’m trying to say anyone is perfect, but one station is startlingly worse than the others, and it isn’t fair to put MSNBC on their level for the sake of having an example from both sides.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
the thing that keeps MSNBC from being at Fox’s level is it doesn’t have as consistent terrible Journalism and misinformation. on MSNBC, you get just as bad misinformation at many times, just a little more sporadically and from less sources on their channel.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
that is true, but if I had to pick a 2nd place team for biased coverage and lying it would be MBNBC. Fox is the clear winnner, but no one gives the first runner up credit for their decit.
bross09 - May 20, 2010
Does MSNBC do the “report a rumor on one station, then report on the first story as though it were completely true on another media outlet” thing?
rufio - May 21, 2010
they don’t do it as much as Fox, but I have caught them doing it a couple times.
Fox is terrible, but that does not absolve MSNBC of any guilt.
bross09 - May 21, 2010
never said it did, just saying there are degrees of guilt.
notthatnoise - May 21, 2010
I agree with this. I was also replying to Rufio’s comment.
There are definitely degrees of guilt and Fox is definitely at the biggest degree. but because they are the biggest, many just try to go after them. However, MSNBC has a significant degree of guilt, though nowhere in the realm of Fox’s
bross09 - May 21, 2010
Uh, I was just asking a question. I said nothing about that either.
rufio - May 22, 2010
and I answered your question and then NTN responded to me about something else and i responded to him. I never said you said MSNBC doesn’t do this stuff.
bross09 - May 22, 2010
No, you answered my question and then went on to say MORE.
Nice lie of omission, though.
rufio - May 22, 2010
so? I was answering your question FULLY. maybe you wanted a yes or no answer but is it a problem I gave you are more comprehensive answer to your question?
is this because I forgot
Fox is terrible, but that does not absolve MSNBC of any guilt.
when I blockquoted it? I didn’t even notice that until you said I lied by omission.
bross09 - May 23, 2010
How convenient, bross.
rufio - May 23, 2010
Pretty poetic, too.
rufio - May 23, 2010
(quick note)
though I will give glenn beck props for one thing. He actually defended the constitution when another republican wouldn’t. McCain said that people suspected of being illegal shouldn’t be read miranda rights and Beck called him out on it.
bross09 - May 21, 2010
I got a good laugh out of that one.
TheRealSlimShady - May 22, 2010
F*** IT WE’LL DO IT LIVE!!!!!!
danvail - May 17, 2010
And this.
Try taking that jackass seriously after reading that page.
danvail - May 17, 2010
I laugh so hard reading that transcript that I’m nearly in tears.
danvail - May 17, 2010
wow…the little respect I had for him just vanished.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
His description of Caribbean vacations is remarkably accurate.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
Try narrating that transcript in his voice without laughing.
Now imagine him saying that the next time you hear him claiming the moral high ground.
danvail - May 17, 2010
Awesome, because I’m going to Aruba in June!! Of course, I’m going with my wife so that may inhibit some of my random hook-ups.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
The fact that he used to be on Extra was enough for me.
Villeslgr - May 17, 2010
Have you seen the techno remix of that on YouTube? It’s hilarious.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
I owe you one. That was six shades of awesome.
danvail - May 18, 2010
This is not helping your case in trying to prove you aren’t glenn beckish.
rufio - May 17, 2010
hahahaha
danvail - May 17, 2010
yeah…not good wording. I didn’t want to single out a particular party and have it dragged into a political debate.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
So you are going to learn from that and not do it next time, right?
rufio - May 18, 2010
Pfft, of course he won’t.
SpecialBrownie - May 18, 2010
hopefully no one compares me to glenn beck again (which is really kinda trying to bring up politics IMO)
bross09 - May 18, 2010
I’ll call it like I see it.
danvail - May 18, 2010
Either Dick Cheney or Glenn Beck.
Take your pick.
SpecialBrownie - May 18, 2010
of comparing me to? how about Arlen Specter. I align the most with his views of anyone in the senate currently.
bross09 - May 18, 2010
Cue police megaphone effect:
ATTENTION BROSS. PUT DOWN THE POLITICS AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY.
TAKE A MINUTE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU’RE DOING. NOBODY HAS TO GET HURT HERE TODAY. THINK OF YOUR FAMILY!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - May 18, 2010
Hahaha, very nice.
danvail - May 18, 2010
Thank you.
And bross, once again, you need to learn when to just LET THINGS GO.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
I really didn’t care anymore a while ago…but how is comparing me to glenn beck or dick cheney (which SB did) out of the blue less bringing up politics than me clarifying someone I would compare myself too.
bross09 - May 18, 2010
If you didn’t care, then why respond?
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
Can you please just start weeding out the politics before people go full swing into it?
rufio - May 18, 2010
Or he can just moderate Bross.
SpecialBrownie - May 18, 2010
It’s not always just him.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
I was hoping we were all mature enough to have this discussion without people getting in to politics.
Buckeye Brad - May 18, 2010
Bross,
Stop.
-Rufio
rufio - May 18, 2010
okay.
I am done.
bross09 - May 18, 2010
Last word
Roger Dorn - May 18, 2010
LAST
danvail - May 18, 2010
FIRST!…
Oh wait.
SpecialBrownie - May 18, 2010
i just laughed pretty loudly in the computer lab, awkward looks ensued.
notthatnoise - May 20, 2010
i’ll slip in after people are exhausted of this post and steal the last word. hahahahahaha!!!
Dawg Nuts - May 20, 2010
I agree. Who cares if Obama thinks that? The guy is a Bulls fan. Of course he’s going to say it. He’d be telling LeBron to stay if he was from Ohio.
emily522 - May 15, 2010
Agreed.
Luckily he’ll have no influence on LeBron’s choice whatsoever.
Last time I remember an Obama-Chicago pitch it didn’t end so well for them. (2016 Olympics)
Simmsinns - May 15, 2010
Ha!
emily522 - May 15, 2010
rec
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
But he has no power in this situation. All he said was that he thought LeBron would look good in a Bulls uniform; I don’t see anything wrong with that. I wouldn’t even call that a “pitch” — it’s not like he called him up to tell him he should come to Chicago. That would be wrong. But he (actually his press secretary) just made an innocent comment to the media.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
Influence is power. And the President’s job is to represent all Americans, not just the ones from his home city. I do not expect him to stop being a Chicago sports fan as he is President, but I do expect him to not insult an entire city with his actions. Especially when that city resides in a state that will be key to his reelection chances in 2012.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
you’re picking at straws
The Licensed Pessimist - May 15, 2010
You’re taking this way too far, I think. Again, he didn’t even say it — one of his advisors did. And is he really insulting an entire city? I don’t think most Cavs fans would be insulted by what he said; he’s just a Chicago fan giving his opinion. He has absolutely no say in LeBron’s decision. It’s not like he called him up to personally ask him to come to Chicago; one of his advisors made a statement. I really don’t see the big deal, unless you don’t like Obama for political reasons and are just looking for ways to criticize him.
And if someone doesn’t vote for him in 2012 because he said he’s like to see LeBron play in Chicago then that peson is a moron.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
Exactly.
Even in his own city he is decidedly White Sox over Cubs. He’s always taking shots at the Cubs.
He’s a sports fan and he’s just doing what sports fans do.
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
And if one of his advisors told China to go screw themselves, it would be viewed as an extension of the President. As long as the President allows his advisors to speak for him, it works as a form of metonymy.
If I was looking for ways to criticize him as a politician, there are plenty of better examples to harp on. I am simply pointing out that it is unprofessional for him to involve himself in this matter.
LeBron James enhances the Cleveland economy in such a positive way that it is foolish for a President to make a pitch to him. Perhaps he only selfishly wants it as a sports fan, which is understandable. But it’s short-sighted of him to not recognize the impact his remark will have.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
Well, I don’t think it’s unprofessional of him at all. I think most intelligent people can understand when he’s speaking as the President and representing the people of the US (as you said above) and when he’s speaking as Barack Obama giving his personal opinion. People ask the President for their opinions on all sorts of matters that have nothing to do with politics or governing, and he’s certainly allowed to give his personal opinion. That doesn’t have any effect on what LeBron will do at all.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
For the duration of his Presidency, he is always speaking as the President of the United States.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
No he’s not. Why type of illogical person would believe such a thing?
The Licensed Pessimist - May 15, 2010
wow
TheRealSlimShady - May 15, 2010
Oh come on . . . as I said, any intelligent person can tell the difference between him giving his personal opinion and him speaking as the leader of the country.
What if the White Sox were playing the Dodgers in the World Series and Obama said that he wanted the White Sox to win the WS — would he be speaking for the entire country when he said that? Of course not, nobody would think that. Would that be an insult to the city of LA, as you said above? Would that cost him votes from California in the 2012 election?
Come on, you’re taking this way too far. I’m sorry, but it seems to me that you have disagreements with Obama politically and that is skewing your judgement in this case. The President — whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, whatever — is allowed to give his personal opinion on nonpolitical matters without people getting all upset about it.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
I have disagreements with every politician, and you typecasting me into a subset of political belief because of my position on his remarks is injudicious.
As acting President, Barack Obama represents the office with his every movement, word, or action. He may root privately for anyone or any team he chooses, but it is ill-advised to interject his personal rooting-based opinion on sports into the public landscape. There is a slight but important difference in filling out an NCAA bracket and making a pitch to a pro athlete to relocate to his city of choice.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
I wasn’t trying to typecast you, I just didn’t think that anyone who was being objective could really be so upset about this statement, but I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I understand that he represents the office of the President — I’m not diagreeing with that — but I don’t think that means every single statement he makes is implied to represent the beliefs of the entire country, and I think it’s usually quite obvious to most people when he’s giving only his personal feelings on an issue. But I really don’t think we need to continue this discussion any further because neither of us are going to convince the other so I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Buckeye Brad - May 15, 2010
Agreed.
gahnki - May 15, 2010
I didn’t see that from gahnki.
I have somewhat the same opinion. I don’t hate the current president or love him. I am politically indifferent…that is the vibe I got from him too.
bross09 - May 16, 2010
so he can’t root for his team at all then under that logic.
Kimble_79 - May 16, 2010
I think your taking this a bit far. He is just a basketball fan rooting for his team. No biggie. I don’t see what Obama (or his staff) jokingly says affecting LBJ’s decision.
Kimble_79 - May 16, 2010
I actually found it more strange that Commissioner Stern opined that LBJ should stay in Cleveland. He really shouldn’t have a rooting interest in any particular franchise over another.
bbstirrd - May 16, 2010
notthatnoise - May 16, 2010
Exactly. That’s much, much more inappropriate than Obama saying anything about the matter. But since Stern’s remark was pro-Cleveland you don’t see any Cavs fans complaining about that, which just shows how people’s biases can cloud their judgement. I’m sure that if Obama had said that LeBron should stay in Cleveland then nobody on this board would have complained about that or called it bush league.
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
this
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
I agree that people are having their biases.
I don’t think stern’s comment was inappropriate…even though it was pro cleveland. I would also consider obama’s comment unnecessary even if it favored cleveland. I have my biases in sports, but when it comes to something like this, i try very hard to be objective.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
how was sterns comment not inappropriate? he has way more control over the situation than obama.
notthatnoise - May 17, 2010
crap. I meant to say appropriate.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
You don’t think Stern’s comment was inappropriate, even though he’s the commisioner of the NBA, but you think Obama’s comment was “unprofessional”? How is that possible?
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
yeah, i’m confused on that too. If the president takes Lebron on Air Force One and talks to him about joining Chicago, then yes its over the line. However, just nonchalantly saying he would look good in a Bulls uniform is not. Sterns comment should have more weight and bearing on your thoughts than anything considering he is the commissioner of the sport in question.
Kimble_79 - May 17, 2010
read above what I said to NTN. I thought I typed appropriate. it does look stupid if it says inappropriate.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
OK, that makes much more sense.
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
yeah. I realized once you pointed it out, it
a) made no sense
b) was in a way hypocratic.
bross09 - May 17, 2010
I don’t think Stern should have said anything, although I’m sure there’s an ulterior reason for him to have. I wouldn’t be surprised if he said it to stave off the constant conspiracy theorizing that people do regarding the NBA catering to big markets.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
This is the first time I have noticed the sig.
Made me giggle. I am five years old.
Bernie19Kosar - May 17, 2010
It’s been a long time since I’ve had a signature- I think I may find a legitimate one once the bet is over.
gahnki - May 17, 2010
I think I should find one, too.
emily522 - May 17, 2010
That explains your typing and grammar . . . . .
Buckeye Brad - May 17, 2010
And inability to correctly use script when posting articles…
SpecialBrownie - May 17, 2010
tru
Bernie19Kosar - May 18, 2010
same
Villeslgr - May 16, 2010
Jeez he’s just having a little fun. Relax.
danvail - May 16, 2010
laughing out loud
Villeslgr - May 15, 2010
Contact your congressmen and ask them to bribe LeBron to remain in Cleveland.
-A message to all LeBron fans paid for by your local goernment
AG7 - May 14, 2010
Totally agree.
Bernie19Kosar - May 15, 2010
Cry me a river.
golanbatrac - May 15, 2010
LeBron’s Elbow made a comment about the New York possibility via his twitter:
Well, at least that’s settled.
Simmsinns - May 15, 2010
Whoever is doing that twitter account is hilarious.
Bernie19Kosar - May 15, 2010
+1
emily522 - May 15, 2010
“I wiseman once said… “Trust in a Cleveland team and you will end up crying in a dark alley and asking God to take your life”, is my farorite one.
North Coast Flea - May 15, 2010
Yahtzee
rufio - May 15, 2010
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