I couldn't help but chuckle when I read the headline that Seneca Wallace was headed to the Cleveland Browns. In some of the older Madden games a few years back, probably around 2004, I was fond of starting my own fantasy draft version of the Browns on the game. I loved playing with a mobile quarterback, but and I wouldn't draft a quarterback until near the end of the draft. Naturally, Wallace was always a perfect fit for my team, and because of that, I paid close attention to his career in Seattle.
Because of Wallace's speed, I always wondered how he would be as a starting quarterback in the NFL. That wasn't about to happen behind former Pro Bowler Matt Hasselbeck though, who before the past two years was a reliable quarterback. Due to Hasselbeck's injuries over the last two seasons, Wallace did see some starting action, including several games on Mike Holmgren's final year with the Seahawks. While I am no where near as keen to Wallace's abilities as Seahawks fans would be, here is my general assessment of Wallace and the trade:
He's not an "I'm going to take off and run for yardage" type of quarterback. He is athletic for a quarterback, but he generally doesn't net yardage on the ground from the position. Take his rushing statistics from last year as an example: he threw for 700 yards, but in the three games that he started, he had 9 rushes for 9 yards.
Maybe it's just the few times that I have watched him, but I recall Wallace taking really long dropbacks -- perhaps so he can scan the field better at his height. Behind a not-so-great offensive line in Seattle, by the time he turns around he doesn't have a lot of time to make a decision. If the pressure gets to him, he rolls away from the pressure and might avoid a sack, but he doesn't find the open receiver down the field.
His stats don't seem to bad, but a good portion of Wallace's production seemed to come when Seattle was already trailing. Part of that can be attributed to Seattle's poor defense, but when did you ever see the headlines that said, "Wallace Ignites Seahawks to Victory?" I heard more things about Shaun Hill in San Francisco than I did Wallace in Seattle.
Without experienced receivers on the Browns, I don't see how you can make Wallace the starting quarterback. Are Mohamed Massaquoi and Brian Robiskie suddenly going to find chemistry with Wallace that they couldn't find with Quinn? Wallace is 29, and while that's far from being old from a quarterback, without him having been a starter in the NFL, I see no reason why he should be a one-year holdover starter.
Wallace can be used in the Wildcat. Considering we just paid Joshua Cribbs a lot of money with the added expectation that he will be featured more offensively, it doesn't really seem to make sense to have Wallace take reps away from him. But, the option is there, and if you're going to deploy a Wildcat system, I don't see why the potential of it being a multi-threat Wildcat system isn't intriguing. Wallace received reps at the wide receiver position under Holmgren two years ago.
Obviously some things will be different with the Browns offense, but Wallace should have a decent grasp of the general system. We acquired Wallace for a conditional pick in the 2011 draft, which could be anywhere from a 4th to a 6th round draft pick, according to reports.
I'd imagine that in order for the pick to escalate to a 4th rounder, Wallace would receive a lot of reps as a starter. If he's just a backup with minimum reps, then we'll give up a 6th rounder (note: on both accounts, this is pure speculation on my part). Considering Wallace doesn't seem to fit the bill as the Browns' long-term starter, that tells me that he's going to be our backup quarterback next season...
...and that means goodbye to Derek Anderson and the bonus he'd be due in mid-March.
With that in mind, that still leads me to believe that Brady Quinn is set to be the starter this year. If we have any intention of drafting a quarterback next year as opposed to this year, between Quinn and Wallace, it seems to make sense to give Quinn the starting role so the front office can be absolutely sold as to whether or not he can play. Also, if Brett Ratliff, Mangini's QB from the Jets didn't escalate to starter competition when he was brought to the Browns, why would Wallace, Holmgren's QB from the Seahawks, suddenly be in charge of a team after sitting on the bench for so long?
Do I like the trade? Yes -- I feel we just acquired a respectable backup quarterback who can also contribute at other positions for a very low price. In terms of throwing the word "starter" into the mix? I'll defer to rufio from the initial reaction thread on the Wallace trade:
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If Holmgren brought Seneca to start then he is a lunatic
There has been very little evidence to justify Wallace starting other than the experience given with Hasselbeck’s injuries. Maybe he’ll be a decent backup in case Quinn goes down but nothing more.
you cant give up on quinn this early. i mean everyone expected us to draft him with the third pick in the draft. but i can say i am through with quin. send him to kc and go be with goold ol charlie weis
Hot news, Andersons contract has been terminated. Needless to say he wasn’t marketable. Now we have Quinn (unless they trade him) and Wallace. I wish we could have gotten something for Anderson, but too expensive and very little talent. Let the season begin.
2009: He lost his Head coach and signal caller in Holmgren (the guy who sort of mentored him too). He lost his offensive coordinator for his whole career, gil haskell. He was not playing in the west coast system where he is comfortable.
2010: Mike Holmgren is the president of the browns organization. His senior advisor is gil haskell. haskell is also as of right now, the de facto OC. he is not the guy calling plays, but he is slowly teaching our Offensive coordinator the west coast system…so wallace will be in a system he knows.
QBs sometimes take a while to get comfortable in an offense. Look at Jason Campbell and Alex Smith. neither one had an OC or an offensive system for a long period of time…this was one of the main reasons these QBs didn’t develop well.
I believe seneca wallace is a good QB in the WC offense. in an offense he is unfamiliar with, with receivers he has no chemistry with…yes disaster.
I will give you a real life example: Someone is an underwriter for a bank. he knows the language of the job and he knows how to succeed. he works well with his coworkers and he understands his role. Lets say, after about 6-7 years as an underwriter, and then he is switched to a role of PR where he meets with investors and helps the public image of the bank. He doesn’t know his co workers and doesn’t work well with them. He is not knowledgable in the field and doesn’t know the jargon. His skills also do not fit the job he is doing. Is it going to be a disaster? most likely.
This is an example of what happened with wallace. he was a west coast guy who I believe could only work in that system. then a new system is brought in and his skills don’t fit it and he does not understand it…it is a disaster, unsurprisingly. Not even Hasselbeck is good in the system.
I don’t disagree. I don’t mind him being the starter for a year however if we get rid of BQ and get a guy like a lefevour. I do not want lefevour starting right away.
some guy on the ravens who went to glenville who can be had for a 5th round pick. If were going to use a late round pick on a qb, we might as well do that.
you know what…you have a habit of getting too obsessed with one player and then closing out to all options. I would like troy smith, but I am not sure if his skill set would work in the WC offense…maybe holmgren doesn’t believe so…remember, he does have just a little experience…
Lefevour I feel might fit the WC more. if holmgren thinks the same, Lefevour will likely get drafted by us. we already met and interviewed with him too…
I don’t think LeFevour would be a bad pick. I know Bernie’s article says otherwise, but I feel that if someone could find a QB in the later rounds, it’s Holgren.
so? its better than throwing interceptions and blowing games. I would rather have wallace circa ‘08 than cutler circa ’09. at least being safe doesn’t lose you a ton of games.
He came up with more creative ways to lose games with his weekly brain fart
Whether it was running in the middle of the field with no timeouts and little time left, firing dumpoffs on must-convert 4th downs, self-fumbles, and self-sacking.
Maybe he has a minor bounce back but he hit his peak a long time ago.
It’s not a bad trade for Cleveland because, as you say, he could have a revitalization under Holmgren, but it’s not saying much because he’s never been good, just serviceable. If serviceable was his ceiling then what are you going to get if he doesn’t reach his ceiling again?
You paid very little for him and his contract expires soon. It’s not a case where the Browns made a stupid trade. In fact, it’s low risk. Don’t expect starter quality and brace yourselves for potential disaster if he does play meaningful games.
Most of the Self-Sacking, Self-Fumbles that seahawks fans seem to be talking about were not when he was in a west coast offense, but were from ‘09 when it wasn’t a WC offense.
I would say though that his ceiling is more than servicable. servicable is about what i expect.
I still don’t get what you mean by “meaningful games”. you keep claiming he was sooo much better when the game was a blowout. where are the stats??? Oh here they are. His QB rating in Blowouts of any kind (wins or losses) was about an 85 over the last 2 seasons. His QB rating in close games was about a 90…
wait…you are using all kinds of numbers…you must be good at math…85 is higher than 90…Right? I guess you are right…since 85 is obviously higher than 90, he is obviously so much more of a disaster in closer games…you win.
His self-sacking and self-fumbles are completely irrelevant to the system he's in
He has a functioning brain and it should tell him that seeing pressure that isn’t there it stupid, and running out of bounds for a gigantic loss instead of throwing the ball away shouldn’t have to do with being in a different system. Those mental mistakes are exactly why he had more interceptions than touchdowns at Iowa State, and why he never excelled under Holmgren.
I guess you are going to completely ignore ‘08. He was quite successful in ’08 (and don’t try to spin that BS that he was only good when the game wasn’t close)
Well, it might not have to do with the fact that the system is actually different, more so the fact that
a) He never knew any other system in the pros besides holmgren’s
b) He had a completely new coach and new offensive philosophy
c) completely new receivers
d) limited time to learn the system
e) Injuries on the O-Line
with the browns healthy O-Line, AND the WC system, you will see the Wallace of ‘08. what you keep describing is the wallace who played 3 games in a system he didn’t know in ’09…you seem to be ignoring the wallace who played 8 games in ’08 well and knew the system.
how is it like DA’s ’08. seneca is a completely different player who only suffered when the offensive system changed. IF he plays in cleveland and does bad, then I might be convinced. as it stands, I do not believe you to be making an accurate analogy.
DA did start a whole season and put up decent numbers and had his Scott Mitchell moment.
You are overvaluing Seneca though. He never flourished in Holmgren’s system and did even worse without him. His stats look good on paper (including ‘08) but that’s what they are. Stats. Way too often he’d be playing Russian Roulette out there with the football. Bad things didn’t happen in 2008, so he tried again in 2009 and fumbled away any chance he had at staying as the backup QB.
yes. you may be right…the jury in my opinion is still out.
you keep bringing up ‘09, and the fact is, there was a ton of turmoil. there was a completely new philosophy and offensive system…it takes a guy more than a couple games to adjust to a new system…it just doesn’t make sense to call him bad just on that…it is completely illogical.
He wasn’t spectacular in his first couple starts in ‘08 but was good once he got acclimated. Are you gonna say that alex smith was horrible because he could never comprehend an offensive philosophy? his changed every year. even before ’08 wallace looked solid in a limited role. if he doesn’t do well this year, maybe you are right, but if he has another solid year with the browns, then he just needed to be back in the WC system.
I’m just done reading this guy’s repeated crap. Every single one of his post pretty much say “Wallace sucks. I don’t like him. HAHA I can’t believe you got him.”
Troll bastard. GTFO
As Keen on his abilities as Seahawks fans? From what we’ve seen in the intial thread, they were pulling their hair out so often the local wig shops missed out on the depression everyone else is going through.
I’d rather try quinn or throw a 5th pick at Baltimore for Troy Smith than draft a late round QB this year. I don’t see any one guy that I like. LeFevor is probably the closest thing but I’m not a fan. Even the first round qbs this year have questions about them. Not a good year for QBs I guess.
I’m just wondering if this will be Holgmren’s approach to acquiring a QB. Forgoing the big name, for a guy he likes (who he can mold?) for less money/lower pick. If so, that would probably change many draft predictions.
Maybe we should bring in Troy Smith to be the starter and Consider trading quinn. I have to wonder what we could get for quinn this year when there’s a lot of teams that need QBs and not many options. He could bring us a conditional 2nd / third round pick, I’d call shanahan in Washington.
I’d like to see both those guys become productive NFL starters but they both cant start for the browns.
Holmgren never found a starting quality QB as a Seahawks HC/GM
The closest he got was Wallace, who is now being traded for a conditional late-round pick. He certainly did a great job identifying Hasselbeck as a guy he wanted to trade for, but he didn’t seem to be able to develop QBs after The Bald One.
and when would he have looked for another QB? And Why? Hasselbeck was still playing and not that old while Holmgren was there. Why would he look for anyone else?
I assume he meant found one through the draft, but when you have Hasselbeck then there really isn’t a reason to draft a QB in the first couple rounds. As we already know that late round QB’s rarely develop in to anything useful. So I wouldn’t be too worried about Holmgren’s ability to draft a QB when necessary.
Actually holmgren did find hasselbeck in the draft. He drafted him in the 6th round for green bay. Then a year after holmgren left green bay to come out to seattle, he traded for hasselbeck.
But remember, Holmgren was not in charge of the draft for most of those years.
He only had 4 drafts as a GM. Not to say he didn’t influence the draft, but there is no way to know much influence he had outside of those 4 years.
As a GM he used a 3rd round pick on Brock Huard, and he swapped 1st with GB and traded a 3rd to get Hasselbeck. He also had Jon Kitna when he first arrived (along with Warren Moon, who was cut within the first 2 months), so there was an evaluation period were he had to figure out if Kitna was gonna be his guy or not. Probably not that unlike now with Quinn.
He also brought in a bunch of free agent QBs. He brought in Trent Dilfer one year, who stuck around, and in 2002 he brought in Ryan Leaf, Mark Rypien and Jeff George, but I don’t think any of them made it to the regular season roster. So don’t be surprised if there are a lot of QBs run through there until you guys find a starter.
I think I’m rooting for Troy Smith to be the guy. I’d love to bring former Glenville teammates Troy Smith and Donte Whitner home to play in the orange and brown. I’d make a good story for Terry Pluto at least.
How many times will jaws tell us he is in favor of bringing in Troy Smith???? I think I have read like ten comments int he last five minutes from the guy telling us we should get Troy Smith. We heard you the first second third fourth tenth time,
Didn’t you know? He’s from Cleveland so he wants to come here to play because he loves the fans so much! He doesn’t even care about getting paid — he’ll play for free!!
you missed David Greene who SEA drafted in the 3rd round of 2005. 85th pick overall. Couldnt grasp Holmgren’s West Coast offense & was released in 2007….
Tim Ruskell was the GM in charge of the draft that year, not Mike Holmgren.
I would be surprised if Holmgren didn’t have some input on drafting any QB, but at the same time, not only did Ruskell and Holmgren not get along at all, but Greene fit the Ruskell criteria so perfectly (4 year starter at a big BCS program with no character concerns) that I really don’t think you can lay that one on Holmgren. The examples I listed are from when Holmgren was the GM and had final say on all draft picks and signings.
I think that’s smart if a couple of conditions are met:
1. You don’t intend this guy to be the franchise guy. If the organization is going to back Quinn, they’ll have less fans calling for the backup if it is a 5th round pick vs. a 1st rounder.
2. There isn’t anyone else on the board you really like.
3. The kid you are drafting has a legit chance to become an NFL QB. They should not be drafting me, for instance. Or someone under 180lbs. They should not draft a cartoon. Anyone with prototypical size, arm, college pedigree, etc. would be the choice.
4. The QB should be a guy the organization thinks will work his butt off.
It bothers me when Cribbs comes in at QB for the wildcat and Quinn goes to a wide receiver position. It’s almost like playing 10 vs. 11. But now imagine Cribbs at QB and Wallace at WR. There are some amazing possibilities.
Bring Wallace in motion for a possible reverse, who does the defense cover? Cribbs or Wallace?
Cribbs threw a pass to BQ this year. Also, I have seen Troy Smith line up in the Wildcat and throw deep to Flacco.
If the D doesn’t guard the QB, you can throw it to him and he can run for 5 yards and get out of bounds without taking a hit. The CB at least has to align out there.
I do agree that if both Wallace and Cribbs are on the field it expands wildcat possibilities.
I’m pretty sure the true “West Coast Offense” doesn’t exist anymore, and even if it did, it’s been around long enough for defenses to know it in and out. Plus Holmgren has been quoted as saying that he won’t be installing the west coast offense.
the “true” west coast offense might not exist anymore…if we are talking about the playbook that Bill Walsh used. However, in seattle, Holmgren ran something similar to the original west coast offense. Andy Reid has a similar style in Philly (which he learned from Holmgren).
Yes he has been saying he won’t install the WCO, but by the strict definition of what the west coast offense really is, what he runs might not be the original WCO. It is a variation but not the original. Not only that, but his OC from seattle, Gil Haskell has been meeting with our OC and talking a lot of strategy. Holmgren also went out and got a guy in seneca wallace that knows his system.
you may be right that the true “west coast offense” doesn’t exist anymore. the only true “WCO” might have been bill walsh. no one uses his playbook.
however, the West coast offense is more of an offensive philosophy than it is an actual offensive playbook. by this sense, it is still very prevalent. the theories in general were used liberally in the playbooks holmgren used in seattle.
That article is pretty accurate, at least as far as what I know.
Paul Zimmerman of SI was always writing about the misuse of the phrase West Coast Offense, how it’s applied to the Walsh offense when that wasn’t its original use. He called the Walsh offense the “Cincinnati Offense” because it was originally developed by Walsh in Cincinnati under Paul Brown.
yep. the phrase west coast offense makes people think it is an actual offensive playbook, when it really isn’t. it is a philosophy used in many playbooks.
There are still things about it that bother me. They say the WCO “may simply refer to an offense that places a greater emphasis on passing than on running.”
We saw in Seattle that this is not true (Shaun Alexander). There are, in fact, many philosophies within things that are commonly thought of as West Coast offenses, and there are many “West Coast” principles or tactics that every team employs.
Overall, it does a much better job than I expect most fans to do.
This is just conjecture based on what Seneca said after he was signed:
I think our offense will involve a few more west coast (Walsh-ian) “concepts”, basically meaning route combinations.
I do not think Holmgren’s influence will mean that we will pass 60x a game. I do not think it will mean we become a 3-step drop team. I do not think it will mean we always will use short-to-deep pass progressions. I think good portion of the offense we saw toward the end of the year will remain the same.
I just think we will have a few “series” from the Walsh/Holmgren playbooks. Basically, that we will have a few groups of similar plays—potentially both passes and runs—that Daboll didn’t know how to implement before this year.
I think we will definitely use more 3 step drops and route combinations out of Holmgren’s playbook. Depending on the stability of the quarterback position I would definitely look for Holmgren to implement the whole “pass to set up the run” aspect of his offense.
In the modern NFL the teams that are competitive year in and year out by and large have good short/intermediate passing games that “set up the run.” It is just too difficult anymore to subsist on trying to establish the power running game and then try and work almost exclusively out of play action.
I just don’t think we will have any sort of success passing to set up the run.
When Holmgren had Shaun Alexander, he ran first. So even if Holmgren’s hand is clearly in the O, we will run to set up the pass unless we magically become a lot better through the air.
We subsisted to the tune of a 4-game winning streak via the run last year. The Jets made a playoff run via the run last year. We don’t have a lot of talent at WR or QB.
it’s way to early to know what the FO has in mind. I’m glad we got Pashos. I didn’t expect a linebacker, but like Fujita. My sails went flat for the pre-draft hype by not getting Thomas Jones. Davis may have been rehabbing very well, IDK. IMO (greatest hope) the FO knows exactly what will help the team win, what I know is that IDK s**t about trying to guess what the FO knows. lol.
Rotoworld likes to think that Seneca is now most likely our starter and that the only sort of competition will come from drafting a rookie QB this year.
dawggonehawaiian is probably right, but we just don’t know right now. I’m glad we picked him up and believe he is a solid backup, possibly competing for the starting job. But my guess is that he is just there to mentor the offense. Who knows though…Holgmren may have plans of starting him?
I think Wallace has a good chance at starting. He’s fast, can throw the deep, and better than BQ.
I’m not clicking my heels over the move, but I’m gunna jump out the window either.
Sorry Smith lovers. Doesn’t look like that’s gunna happen now. hehe
As always, I smile whenever these sorts of ideas come around. That said, I don’t feel like it’s at all clear what Wallace’s role here is intended to be. Interesting move though….
agree completely…is his role to mentor Brady, mentor a draft pick, mentor the team in Holmgrens offense, or to start? We don’t know!!!! They are quite a few haters on here moaning and groaning. You don’t even know what the plan is yet? Relax and breath and let Mike do his job
A. Troy Smith has as much a chance of starting for the Browns right now as Tim Couch.
B. Holmgren and company has said 2 things that people are forgetting. 1) they were actively looking to solve the QB issue and 2) they don’t believe in QB competitions. If Quinn or Anderson are not named the starters this week, they are not going to be the starters. By going after David Carr and Seneca Wallace, the Browns are looking for a transition starting QB, not a backup. They could have found a cheap backup in free agency without giving up any draft picks.
Right. I think Chad Pennington and David Carr are a notch above Seneca Wallace. We failed in pursuing them.
That said, if you´re progressive, several quarterbacks that can rush and receive passes is exciting. It´s one upping the wild-cat.
With Seneca Wallace as the starter though, you can not be planning to dominate, it´s a very conservative approach. I don´t remember giving anyone time to win ever, you should be feeling the winning perogative at all times within a fair set of rules, depleted roster or not, that´s what spurs you on to get better players. All the actions to indicate there is time, are deplorable.
All that is said about Seneca is true about his abilities and athleticism but he is definitely not a starter. Not very good at delivering the football and doesn’t make good decisions with the ball in his hands. The highlight of his career in Seattle is the year we went to the Superbowl, he made a huge catch for a first down when we split him out as a reciever. Honestly I think he would be a great possesion reciever if that is what he wanted to do. He has great hands and great athleticism and a few of the routes he has run were executed pretty well. He wants to play QB and so that is why he will spend much of his talent sitting on the bench as a backup wherever he goes. Hats off to Browns fans for aquiring Holmgren though he will make your franchise better, too bad my Seahawks were stupid and let him go!
Yeah. That was a knee-jerk vote. My first thought was “yes” because we’ve heard that the FO isn’t too high on Quinn and I thought “Oh maybe Wallace will come in for a year and be the starter since he already knows the offensive system”. Then if that didn’t work, draft a QB in 2011 (or get one through FA or a trade).
What I meant to say in my previous post is Seneca made a huge catch in the Championship game against Carolina, not in the Superbowl..lol! He is definitely a good flex/utility guy but not a good starter. Browns have a ton of talent and Holmgren in the organization will definitely make the Browns a team to respect in the next 2 to 4 years.
I don’t know, not a fan of the QBs in this years draft. But Seattle needs one to take over following Hasselback and you gotta think it needs to be this year. Personally I am not a fan of Tebow but whomever comes in will have some time to get used to the NFL and the system w/o having to be the starter, which I think is ideal. I never could have imagined that Sanchez would have had the season he had with NY though so who knows.
i’m not convinced quinn is necessarily going to the be the starter…. if you take a look at wallace’s 2008 stats they are really quite good, 11 TD, 3 INT, 58% completion percentage through 8 games with really no supporting cast. i would take that any day of the week over what we had last year…
agreed. the odds are that neither BQ nor Wallace are our future, so who do you think holmgren wants steering the ship during the transition period, until we get our long term starter? “his guy”, that he knows and has worked with. i understand he can’t have a whole team of “his guys”, but if there is one position that he would want that, its QB.
I’m thinking he wants a guy who knows the preferred offense so that they won’t have to change too much of it, allowing the players around the QB to get experience running the preferred offense and not a simplified/modified version of it.
In other words, if Quinn can’t pick it up or doesn’t succeed, he’s gone and we have Seneca running the offense for better or worse.
So, I was watching ESPN first take today and these two guys (wish I could remember their names…) said our 1st round pick should be Dez Bryant or CJ Spiller.
I could be convinced to take Bryant IF Berry was gone and the FO was convinced that Haden wasn’t worth a 7th pick. Spiller, I like him, but no. RB is not the biggest of the Browns unlike whatshisface said.
Maybe when these two made their predictions they assumed Berry would be gone already.
boo to dez. I feel he will have a rougher transition than people think into the NFL. over the last couple years, the guys that make the most impact their first year are
a) precise route runners
b) speedsters who run decent routes and can get consistent separation.
Dez is neither. he has good speed but not elite speed. he will never be a huge vertical threat in the NFL. his skills are leaping, muscling out players, and catching the ball. He doesn’t have bad speed, but his straight line speed and deep speed is one of the weaker aspects of his game.
the weakest aspect of Dez’s game though is his route running. he is a very pedestrian route runner. guys like this tend to have a rougher transition into the NFL from what I have seen.
I agree. I am personally not a huge fan of his game and I think personally he is a little overhyped…still, he is a good player and I didn’t mention that. he reminds me of a bigger, more talented version of Brandon Marshall (except worse route running). He IS deadly in the end zone. I just don’t want to take an overhyped jackass.
I thought he was bigger?? Oh yeah...forgot brandon Marshall was like 6'4'' (and I am even playing with marshall right now on madden). Crabtree is a very good comparison IMO.
Crazy hypothetical for everyone… what if all four of these players were available: Suh, McCoy, Berry, and Bradford (or Clausen if he’s your #1QB prospect) at 7th overall.
I think he would. He doesn’t have great targets in NY, and I dare say we have a better line and a credible run threat.
But that’s really beside the point. I’m simply asking if one thinks a given prospect has to be the next Peyton in order to be picked over Suh or Berry or McCoy.
Personally, I think Suh and Berry will be dominant and Bradford will be good. I think you have to take Bradford in that case simply because of positional value. I think McCoy busts.
I think my board would be Bradford, Suh, Berry with all things considered. But honestly, I haven’t given it much thought because I am praying one of those guys will be available when we pick.
peyton is just the example i used. if he thinks bradford will be a pro bowl QB that will consistently take our team to the playoffs and beyond, i hope he takes him. brees, eli, rivers, whatever the comparison.
That’s where I’m at as well. As much as I would love to pull the trigger on an elite prospect like Suh or Berry, those are luxury pieces that the Browns cannot afford. We need a QB to the point where I’d take Bradford out of those four.
Bradford would be nice. But I’d take Suh or Berry. I think we can win with Quinn or somebody else. Might as well add the elite other piece and hope either Quinn or somebody else can win ball games for you. If you can’t get a qb to step up this year, go to the draft next year looking for QBs.
A valid thought, but I’m already convinced Quinn isn’t going to ever get to even Eli’s level. My worst fear is everything turning around and Quinn looking passable, winning 7-8 games behind solid play of other units, and sticking around long enough to screw up a few years and possibly a good FO situation.
I am of the belief that Couch could have been good with a decent supporting cast, Kelly Holcomb is just garbage, who got inspired in a season long QB battle.
I think if it was clear that we were 8-8 and had a Baltimore 2000ish team that we’d take a QB in the first. I think Mangini and Holmgren are too smart to play Quinn for 3 years if he is never really good. And they’re smart enough to know you can’t have too many good QBs.
I would hope so as well, but there’s plenty that could delay pulling the trigger, at least hypothetically. Perhaps they run into the situation where they can choose between the good QB and the great/elite “X” a few times. If they feel that Quinn is A) well liked and B) not terrible and C) they can get away with waiting another year, well then maybe we endure another year of mediocrity.
It’s all hypothetical, for certain, but it’s just something I’d rather avoid. Get the QB in place ASAP. Take the luxury pieces later.
NY’s receivers are probowlers compared to ours. Nicks and Manningham are better than Massoquoi. There other receivers are all better than Stuckey and Robo
I would put MoMass on par with Manningham. I did not get to watch a lot of Nicks, but assume he drew the #1 CB.
Remember, MoMass was the only credible receiving threat on our team for a lot of the year last year, whereas Manningham is probably not a defense’s primary concern.
That said, we might have the worst group of receivers in the league.
He was incredible early, so it definitely had to be Steve Smith. Nicks didn’t get going until 5-6 games into the season. Manningham after a hot start, was actually pretty bad down the stretch. I would take MoMass over Mario, but not the other two.
I just thought I remember hearing that he wasn’t being covered with the #1 early because teams weren’t expecting him to sustain it or maybe that was Austin or it could have all been in my head.
I was under the impression that after Nicks started getting used to the NFL, he was drawing the #1. Previously, Smith would have gotten the #1.
But really the larger point I am trying to make is that the Giants have 2-3 goot-to-very-good WRs and another 2ish average WRs. There are solid targets all over the place. We have MoMass.
If I am a defense, I have no problem playing man with no help on any of our TEs, and any of our WRs except Mass and maybe Cribbs (simply because if he does get his hands on the ball you will probably need more than 1 CB to take him down).
Manningham is in a situation to look a lot better than Mass.
We’re OK at NT so no to Suh; not sufficient improvement (If only he were a DE..)
McCoy is more of a 4-3 guy. No idea if that would translate to a 3-4 end but after Corey…. let’s not even go there.
We’re just not ready to plug in a good QB. Maybe next year. And Quinn deserves a proper go with a proper coaching set up (and of course there’s Seneca too now).
Finally: I love dominat safeties to build a D around. Someone compared Berry to Ronnie Lott. I wouldn’t even check the price tag after a rec like that…
I think Suh could line up at DE in a 3-4, and of course so can Rogers. Plus, you want a rotation at NT anyway to keep the big, fat line on fresh legs.
I don’t get the idea of a player “deserving” an unearned starting spot. If the coaches aren’t sold on him, go at least get an alternative. Maybe that’s what Wallace is, but really as a fan, debating between the merits of one piece of crap over a different style lump of shit… well you get idea.
Fair point, my “deserves” doesn’t really work there. He has his deal.
But if we write off his rookie season to Anderson’s freak year, the second was an all round mess and I don’t think last year on the fieldwas really any better (I think Mangini was doing some good work in getting the house in order though).
Quinn is probably best suited to a WCO and with the people there to implement it… we’ll see. I’m just not ready to bail on the investment yet.
“According to beat writer Tony Grossi, Brady Quinn could be “shipped out” after the recent trade for Seneca Wallace. Derek Anderson is already as good as gone, and Quinn won’t be able to learn Mike Holmgren’s West Coast offense and beat out Wallace in one offseason. The Browns may look to draft a quarterback in the second or third round, but Wallace is easily the favorite start Week 1."
Grossi’s the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, isn’t he? Pluto’s the one who does. Am I flipping the two?
As someone who is clearly not a fan of Quinn, this scenario seems silly in my opinion. Why go into the season with Wallace and a rookie who isn’t ready to start as your only viable options at the most important position on the field? Why limit yourself like that unless you get a huge return for Quinn? Even if you did do this, wouldn’t you bring in a journeyman vet?
yep. I love how when he said that we traded corey williams, he insisted that although williams was not a nose, and played a very limited role, this made shaun rogers indispensible in trades, and that rogers is guaranteed a starting spot at DE and will not play at nose (this part makes a little sense)
Walterfootball’s most recent mock draft:
Round 1: Berry (First six picks: Bradford, Okung, Suh, Clausen, Bulaga, McCoy)
Round 2: Kareem Jackson, CB, Alabama → I’ve heard some good things about this guy. On ESPN they said he was the “sleeper” in Alabama’s defense. Ran a 4.41 at the combine.
Round 3: Andre Roberts, WR, The Citadel→ I have never heard of this guy. I’m sure some of you have.
Round 3: Jamar Chaney, ILB, Mississippi State—> Same.
Round 4: Dan LeFevour, QB, Central Michigan
Love that draft shake out for us, LOVE it. first two rounds great, Jamar Chaney had an amazing combine, could be a nice sleeper. Not crazy about drafting a QB, like I said I’m not in love with this draft’s QBs, think I’d rather give up the 5th and take a chance on Troy Smith.
One thing that keeps pissing me off about walterfootball was he continues to say that we traded away our #5 pick for “nothing” aka Alex Mack when we could have had Sanchez. Yeah, Mack had a real crap of a season…
Requires Insider access, but for anyone with it looking to feel even better about trading down last year, I present this.
Notable quote:
Looking at the 16-game regular season… We can put their statistics into context by using Football Outsiders’ similarity scores.
For Sanchez, we’re limiting our sample to players who were first-year starters… imagine our horror when the closest match for Sanchez turned out to be current Raiders punch line JaMarcus Russell.
His YPA wasn’t terrible, just wasn’t great…It was pretty pedestrian at 6.7.
yeah, his completion percentage was dreadul (less than 54%)
Also, even for a rookie QB he was extremely fumble prone (with the snap likely). He had 10 fumbles in 15 games…that is 2/3 of a fumble every game…not good.
I thought his positives were being comfortable in a pro style offense? I didn’t see that.
the YPA? i would not call it awful. they were a running team anyways. when you consider he had steve smith it seems a little worse too. still, that is the one thing he was able to still do well…but that is no reason to go out and get him.
People forget about him. He was dreadful. He always seems to be left off of the lists of biggest busts. He was drafted 3rd overall. plus as a QB he was just about as bad as Leaf…just without the attitude (except I think I heard he was a prima donna)
Maybe close, but 12 TDs to 20 INTs is not good even for a rookie.
Here are some TD/INT ratios for recent rookies
Ryan: 1.45/1 (16/11)
Flacco: 1.17/1 (14/12)
Russell: .5/1 (2/4)
Stafford: .65/1 (13/20) but if you take out the games he played injured its .8/1 (11/14)
Cutler (in 5 starts): 1.8/1 (9/5)
Leinart: .92/1 (11/12)
VY: .92/1 (12/13)
Stafford: .6/1 (12/20)
Roethlisberger: 1.5/1 (17/11)
The point is:
Yes there are some Rookies who don’t have a great TD/INT ratio and there are definitely some that are close to 1/1…Over the last few years, "Sanchize"’s Rookie stats are truly an outlier. there is only one I listed that was close, and that was stafford from this year, and once you take away the games where he was hurt, he seems fairly normal for a rookie. most rookies fall between .8/1 TD/INT to 1.5/1 TD/INT and many ARE around 1/1…
still, .6/1 is very bad and for a rookie who played that much time. in fact, the only player with worst is Alex smith in his dreadful rookie year with a .09/1 TD/INT ratio (1/11)
I agree with the trade. For the price, we’ve added much needed talent to our offensive schemes. As for our QB situation, I’m not sold on Brady Quinn either. He’s very intelligent. Strong work ethic. Overall, I like the kid. I would rather see us bring Derek back to his 2007 form though. He has the better arm. But I am just a fan. I have no NFL experience as a scout or GM. I trust our newly remodeled front office will make the correct decisions for the Cleveland Browns. Looking forward to 2010.
Why is Holmgren considered a QB guru? Because of Matt Hasselback? Whatever. And farvre was ron wolfs aquisition. Taking wallace over Troy Smith, who has way more upside, is just a travesty.
Montana was established when Holmgren came in but Montana was at his best with Holmgren. in Holmgren’s first year, Montana won comeback player of the year. Montana had his best seasons statistically with Homgren as QB/OC coach.
Holmgren, before he was the QB coach at Brigham Young University. While there, he developed 2 great QBs, Robbie Bosco (whose career was cut short by injury) and Steve Young. He groomed steve young when he was at BYU and when he was a backup in SF.
While they did not have success under Holmgren, Brunell and Brooks were both backups and coached by him when in Green Bay. they went on to have success after him. Then there is obviously favre and Hasselbeck.
There are some other interesting ones too:
He also developed Doug Pederson into a competent backup. while he was nothing special, he was a small school QB who wouldn’t have been in the league as long as he was without Holmgren.
He also developed Ty Detmer. While he was nothing special, he was a career WC QB and had success in Philly and would have been a good stopgap for couch until he got hurt.
He also found Steve Bono while with SF (and later acquired him in green bay). while bono was not anything special, he knew the offense and was a solid backup.
The point is: not only was he a genius at developing and finding good and great signal callers, he was also great at finding guys that fit his system. He can find an average QB, see how he can play in the WC and make him a competent backup.
Every year since Seneca was in the league I would trade for him in Madden and keep him as my backup. But seriously, the guy knows the west coast offense we are installing in Cleveland. He’s been a part of it his whole career. Believe it or not, he will be a huge help for Quinn, or whoever ends up starting.
CLEVELAND , HERE WE GO AGAIN .Now it’s not a 2 way QB controversy , because now we have 3 back ups that aren’t good enough to start for any team in the league . I’m tired of being a Browns fan
I root for them too. they are the only other NFL team I care about…granted I am a browns fan living in buffalo, but I will never love anyone as much as I love the orange and brown.
Going along with “no QB derbies” in training camp, Holmgren should release statements to the fans on what is on his mind, why he is doing things a certain way. The Browns fans deserve to know rather than all this speculative guessing.
This trade and release of Anderson does not make a lot of sense to me – like one person commented that we are watching cinci and baltimore make important acquisitions while the Browns are still doing things that makes everybody scratch their heads and wonder.
This trade and release of Anderson does not make a lot of sense to me – like one person commented that we are watching cinci and baltimore make important acquisitions while the Browns are still doing things that makes everybody scratch their heads and wonder.
How about we give him the whole offseason and see what happens then decide if we approve of all of the moves in totality? No? Instead we should complain 5 days into the offseason?
I just remembered that Holmgren did trade for Charlie Frye. Collecting quarterbacks is a hobby of his, so it’s likely that we will add at least one more before the season. I’m thinking a late round guy like LeFevour.
yep. he met with him, he is perfect for the WCO. I am pretty much convinced we get lefevour. I think that wallace might be the starter for a while and either we keep BQ or go out and get a veteran for a year (more likely the latter). that veteran might start or might just battle it out with wallace. I do not want lefevour starting right away but if he gets trained in the WCO, I think he could be great. I have seen him play and the one player he reminds me of a bit (except for the great strong arm this person had) is Steve young. I know he will never be that good but he has some similar skills and I feel will also be good in the WCO.
I have no problem if we draft a late round QB, I just don’t want to hear that player’s name mentioned by casual fans for at least 2.5 years after such a pick.
WE SHOULD START FRYE HES AKRON BOY GOOD FOOTBALL MIND HE CAN WIN LETS GO GET IR DONE
“NFL Network’s Mike Lombardi expects Brady Quinn to be no better than the Browns’ No. 3 quarterback in 2010. The alternative would be Cleveland moving Quinn for a late-round pick. According to Lombardi, Quinn is too inaccurate for the Browns’ new West Coast offense. Lombardi also projects Seneca Wallace to be the Browns’ No. 2 QB, and club president Mike Holmgren to find a starter via trade or the draft.”
Well, there is a backstory to Lombardi. He used to run player personnel for the Browns and has a vendetta against the organization now. He makes up a lot of rumors concerning the team and regularly trashes Mangini.
Speaking of NC… go figure, the year the Browns FINALLY play the Panthers, they’re in Cleveland. My dad and I would go if it was going to be in Charlotte.
btw, (to you and everyone) does anyone here read Rolling Stone??? I hate that magazine now…
Mat Taibbi is the biggest idiot on the earth. he is a yellow journalist who writes about how the government is collapsing and all these vast conspiracies. now they have him writing sports and he has no idea what he was talking about. he called the Cowboys new stadium the end of civilization…
but the point is, he is the guy who compared mangini to augustus gloop…
Holmgren looked good in SB years , it"s easier when you have the leagues MVP . FAVRE twice and SAlexander . Unfortunately BIG Mike no special teams player [Cribbs] or OLineman [JThomas] have ever carried the coach to a Super Bowl . Mangini,s the same guy who forgot to let Harrison play for most of the season , traded edwards and winslow for draft picks and wonders why we have no experience at WR , in Cleveland we manufacture problems . We invent ways to loose , I been going to every game since 1988 , and damn right I’m salty .Rebuilding for the eleventh consecutive year . Yeah , I’m sick and tired of being a Browns fan , but I won’t being rooting for Buffalo. You’ll grow tired , PUP of being optimistic year after year , Reality sucks , NO STARTING QB , NO WR WITH MORE THAN 50 CATCHES ,NO RB WHO HAS GAINED EVEN 900 YARDS IN A SEASON . AINT NO MVP IN CLEVELAND, THE DAWG IS SALTY
I love what mangini did, tell you the truth. Somebody had to be willing to get dirty and dig into our bloated roster and cut out the team cancers. Evidently you can’t build a franchise with a locker room filled with crybabies and headcases like Braylon, Windslow and Derek Anderson. Mangini did the dirty work that a lot of coaches wouldn’t want to do.
You’d think after watching all that football you’d be able to recognize a few things about the realities of the NFL, but maybe that’s a bit above your pay grade.
I’m pretty sure Holmgren took over Green Bay when their team was in a decade long slump and they didn’t have Favre yet, pretty sure he took over Seattle when they had a long slump and Alexander wasn’t there…point is Sherlock that Holmgren gets good players and then wins SuperBowls
Sorry to sound disloyal , I bleed BROWN and ORANGE . Unfortunately as a DAWG I spend a lot of time bleeding . 3 back up QBs , might as well dump JOE THOMAS , it’s a lot of money to pay somebody when their’s no blind side to protect , that is even a reasonable facsimile of a star . Let Brady Quinn continue to sell jersies to wet , prepubescent girls . I want my money back . It’s taking longer to build this team , than it did to construct the pyramids of Giza .
Sorry you’re not perceptive enough to recognize sarcasm . Maybe you could post your real picture , instead of one you scanned from your latest copy of Playgirl .
well…when you say an outlandish statement seriously one minute and say something outlandish that is sarcastic, how are we supposed to know you are being sarcastic. If this was someone else posting here the same thing you did (someone like rufio or buckeye brad) it would be pretty obvious the sarcasm.
give the new FO some time…we will be much more competitive next year and I’m still saying we make the playoffs in 2011, IF the NFL even plays games in 2011
Call me if you want to buy this years seats , but it’s nice to know they might be competitive next year , after they find a new coach , and start yet again .
I know what ur saying, but this time round is a lil different. We didn’t hire nobody’s that were just getting their feet wet at FO jobs. We hired proven talent from people with experience. I’m not saying they don’t ever draft some busts or something like that, but they will and know how to build a winning team. aka..Eagles=Heckert, GB and Seattle=Holmgren, and as much as I didn’t like Mangini he did build most of the jets team that Rexie took over in NY.
Seinfeld is boring and predictable? Really? I’ve never heard anyone say that before. I think it’s the funniest TV show of all time and it’s certainly very original. There has never been a TV show like it before or since. I understand how someone might not like that humor, but I don’t know how anyone could say that it was predictable.
I thought it was really good the first couple of seasons but they fell off after that (although I haven’t watched it much lately so it may have gotten better). The episode where they start hanging out and drinking with high school kids was absolutely hilarious.
I totally agree. I am falling in love with FX. I don’t really get the danger zone thing, if it is an archer reference…but I have only seen the first couple episodes.
BB and I could have a face-off. I know every word to every episode. Except for the Puerto Rican Day Parade episode. That one is never shown. Have only seen it a few times.
i’d suggest you start watching over your shoulder, becasue joe thomas is now actively hunting you. and it won’t take him long to find you. just so you know.
Joe Thomas has in fact already hunted him down. He is crouching on a tree branch with an antique medieval long bow sitting in front of his living room window. When Salty Dawg goes to sit down and watch the first game of the season, Thomas will strike and blue and red blood will pour, exposing Salty Dawg for what he truly is; A Buffalo fan.
in my humble opinion, this is one of the greatest comments ever made on this site. creative, funny, touches on multiple themes of the site. kudos to you, my man.
UPDATE: The pick we gave up is a 2011 7th rounder that can become a 6th rounder based on playing time. Even if you are ‘meh’ on Wallace, it’d be difficult to get upset about what we gave up.
If Holmgren brought Seneca to start then he is a lunatic
There has been very little evidence to justify Wallace starting other than the experience given with Hasselbeck’s injuries. Maybe he’ll be a decent backup in case Quinn goes down but nothing more.
SSreporters - March 8, 2010
As a Seahawk fan, you may have missed how bad Quinn sucks.
Simmsinns - March 9, 2010
you cant give up on quinn this early. i mean everyone expected us to draft him with the third pick in the draft. but i can say i am through with quin. send him to kc and go be with goold ol charlie weis
Lancers25 - March 9, 2010
Contradictory much?
skipkirk - March 9, 2010
That might be the weirdest post I’ve ever seen on here.
Brownie's Year - March 9, 2010
He’s not even a Browns fan, which makes it even weirder.
gahnki - March 9, 2010
He said ‘with the third pick’ which we had but he goes for the Redskins, which had the sixth?
There should be some section on DBN called ‘weirdest comment of the month’.
skipkirk - March 10, 2010
There is a Santa Clause
Hot news, Andersons contract has been terminated. Needless to say he wasn’t marketable. Now we have Quinn (unless they trade him) and Wallace. I wish we could have gotten something for Anderson, but too expensive and very little talent. Let the season begin.
RB 13 - March 9, 2010
what about 2008…2009 is not a good example but if you look at 2008, I wouldn’t mind him starting.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Safe, dependable, can't complete a 15 yard pass, relied on massive YAC
Avoided interceptions almost completely through luck and making many safe throws.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
That was 2008. 2009? Disaster.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
2009: He lost his Head coach and signal caller in Holmgren (the guy who sort of mentored him too). He lost his offensive coordinator for his whole career, gil haskell. He was not playing in the west coast system where he is comfortable.
2010: Mike Holmgren is the president of the browns organization. His senior advisor is gil haskell. haskell is also as of right now, the de facto OC. he is not the guy calling plays, but he is slowly teaching our Offensive coordinator the west coast system…so wallace will be in a system he knows.
QBs sometimes take a while to get comfortable in an offense. Look at Jason Campbell and Alex Smith. neither one had an OC or an offensive system for a long period of time…this was one of the main reasons these QBs didn’t develop well.
I believe seneca wallace is a good QB in the WC offense. in an offense he is unfamiliar with, with receivers he has no chemistry with…yes disaster.
I will give you a real life example: Someone is an underwriter for a bank. he knows the language of the job and he knows how to succeed. he works well with his coworkers and he understands his role. Lets say, after about 6-7 years as an underwriter, and then he is switched to a role of PR where he meets with investors and helps the public image of the bank. He doesn’t know his co workers and doesn’t work well with them. He is not knowledgable in the field and doesn’t know the jargon. His skills also do not fit the job he is doing. Is it going to be a disaster? most likely.
This is an example of what happened with wallace. he was a west coast guy who I believe could only work in that system. then a new system is brought in and his skills don’t fit it and he does not understand it…it is a disaster, unsurprisingly. Not even Hasselbeck is good in the system.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Here is the role of Seneca Wallace on the Cleveland Browns:
A backup quarterback who already knows Holmgren’s system, so he doesn’t need very many reps in training camp this year to be ready in a pinch.
Our starter will need the lion’s share of the reps in camp.
Also he could contribute a little as a WR or wildcat back, but anything like this is just gravy.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
I don’t disagree. I don’t mind him being the starter for a year however if we get rid of BQ and get a guy like a lefevour. I do not want lefevour starting right away.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I do not want lefevour.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
that is your opinion…who do you want then, Pike? McCoy??
bross09 - March 9, 2010
some guy on the ravens who went to glenville who can be had for a 5th round pick. If were going to use a late round pick on a qb, we might as well do that.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
Joe Flacco went to Glenville?
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Ha. Ha.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
you know what…you have a habit of getting too obsessed with one player and then closing out to all options. I would like troy smith, but I am not sure if his skill set would work in the WC offense…maybe holmgren doesn’t believe so…remember, he does have just a little experience…
Lefevour I feel might fit the WC more. if holmgren thinks the same, Lefevour will likely get drafted by us. we already met and interviewed with him too…
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I don’t think LeFevour would be a bad pick. I know Bernie’s article says otherwise, but I feel that if someone could find a QB in the later rounds, it’s Holgren.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
yep. that is my point. Lefevour seems like the kind of guy that fits the WC. Plus supposedly they have shown interest in him.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Where did you heard that? Not that I don’t believe you, but do you have an article about it?
emily522 - March 9, 2010
I think an article on here earlier talked about them interviewing/meeting with him at the combine.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
If it aint a first rounder, it aint a starter.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
It was a joke. I was playing off my own over-exposed opinion of Troy Smith.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
or was it…
now that I undertand that, it isn’t even funny…
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Dude, stop talking about Troy Smith. 90% of your post mention him. He’s not coming here.
Brownie's Year - March 9, 2010
and the other one he is on the nuts of jerry hughes.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I meant other 10%
bross09 - March 9, 2010
This guy’s starting to sound suspiciously like one of my favorite internet meme….
I like One Piece!
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
I have no clue what that is supposed to be.
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Stupid.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
None of that cartoon crap, please.
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
jaws, is it your position that the team should acquire troy smith? please be clear…
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
WHAT??? You were just saying on another thread that he is the best QB?
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
so? its better than throwing interceptions and blowing games. I would rather have wallace circa ‘08 than cutler circa ’09. at least being safe doesn’t lose you a ton of games.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
He came up with more creative ways to lose games with his weekly brain fart
Whether it was running in the middle of the field with no timeouts and little time left, firing dumpoffs on must-convert 4th downs, self-fumbles, and self-sacking.
Maybe he has a minor bounce back but he hit his peak a long time ago.
It’s not a bad trade for Cleveland because, as you say, he could have a revitalization under Holmgren, but it’s not saying much because he’s never been good, just serviceable. If serviceable was his ceiling then what are you going to get if he doesn’t reach his ceiling again?
You paid very little for him and his contract expires soon. It’s not a case where the Browns made a stupid trade. In fact, it’s low risk. Don’t expect starter quality and brace yourselves for potential disaster if he does play meaningful games.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
I do like the trade.
Most of the Self-Sacking, Self-Fumbles that seahawks fans seem to be talking about were not when he was in a west coast offense, but were from ‘09 when it wasn’t a WC offense.
I would say though that his ceiling is more than servicable. servicable is about what i expect.
I still don’t get what you mean by “meaningful games”. you keep claiming he was sooo much better when the game was a blowout. where are the stats??? Oh here they are. His QB rating in Blowouts of any kind (wins or losses) was about an 85 over the last 2 seasons. His QB rating in close games was about a 90…
wait…you are using all kinds of numbers…you must be good at math…85 is higher than 90…Right? I guess you are right…since 85 is obviously higher than 90, he is obviously so much more of a disaster in closer games…you win.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
His self-sacking and self-fumbles are completely irrelevant to the system he's in
He has a functioning brain and it should tell him that seeing pressure that isn’t there it stupid, and running out of bounds for a gigantic loss instead of throwing the ball away shouldn’t have to do with being in a different system. Those mental mistakes are exactly why he had more interceptions than touchdowns at Iowa State, and why he never excelled under Holmgren.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
I guess you are going to completely ignore ‘08. He was quite successful in ’08 (and don’t try to spin that BS that he was only good when the game wasn’t close)
Well, it might not have to do with the fact that the system is actually different, more so the fact that
a) He never knew any other system in the pros besides holmgren’s
b) He had a completely new coach and new offensive philosophy
c) completely new receivers
d) limited time to learn the system
e) Injuries on the O-Line
with the browns healthy O-Line, AND the WC system, you will see the Wallace of ‘08. what you keep describing is the wallace who played 3 games in a system he didn’t know in ’09…you seem to be ignoring the wallace who played 8 games in ’08 well and knew the system.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I'll let John explain it
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2009/1/21/730297/the-compelling-case-agains
Seneca’s ‘08 is almost like Derek’s ‘07….only I’d take Seneca over Derek.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
how is it like DA’s ’08. seneca is a completely different player who only suffered when the offensive system changed. IF he plays in cleveland and does bad, then I might be convinced. as it stands, I do not believe you to be making an accurate analogy.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Yeah I see your point
DA did start a whole season and put up decent numbers and had his Scott Mitchell moment.
You are overvaluing Seneca though. He never flourished in Holmgren’s system and did even worse without him. His stats look good on paper (including ‘08) but that’s what they are. Stats. Way too often he’d be playing Russian Roulette out there with the football. Bad things didn’t happen in 2008, so he tried again in 2009 and fumbled away any chance he had at staying as the backup QB.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
yes. you may be right…the jury in my opinion is still out.
you keep bringing up ‘09, and the fact is, there was a ton of turmoil. there was a completely new philosophy and offensive system…it takes a guy more than a couple games to adjust to a new system…it just doesn’t make sense to call him bad just on that…it is completely illogical.
He wasn’t spectacular in his first couple starts in ‘08 but was good once he got acclimated. Are you gonna say that alex smith was horrible because he could never comprehend an offensive philosophy? his changed every year. even before ’08 wallace looked solid in a limited role. if he doesn’t do well this year, maybe you are right, but if he has another solid year with the browns, then he just needed to be back in the WC system.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
We get it. You don’t like Wallace and you keep repeating yourself.
Brownie's Year - March 9, 2010
exactly. we are willing to give him a chance.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I’m just done reading this guy’s repeated crap. Every single one of his post pretty much say “Wallace sucks. I don’t like him. HAHA I can’t believe you got him.”
Troll bastard. GTFO
Brownie's Year - March 9, 2010
Did you really just say that you think Wallace had a better season than Cutler?
wow.
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
seneca wallace circa ’08 in the WC Offense, compared to Jay Cutler and his 26 interceptions this year.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Give me Cutler every day of the week over Wallace.
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
yep…and he’ll throw 3 interceptions any day of the week.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Cutler's #1 target is a converted DB.
I wouldn’t give up on Cutler.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
well, he still couldn’t hit ANY of his receivers. He constantly overthrew Greg Olsen too.
There, fixed it for you.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
now thats funny
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
yep. I mean if this guy is gonna come in and say the praises of cutler, I am going to correct him.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Wow. Cutler had 1 bad year with NO supporting cast. Seneca has had 0 good years.
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
he had one decent year with not a great supporting cast either.
bross09 - March 13, 2010
I like Cutler a lot.
Roger Dorn - March 9, 2010
Cutler kicks Browns tails in his dreams.
mooncamping - March 10, 2010
As Keen on his abilities as Seahawks fans? From what we’ve seen in the intial thread, they were pulling their hair out so often the local wig shops missed out on the depression everyone else is going through.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
I didn’t mean keen as in they liked him, but rather they are more aware of his abilities.
Chris Pokorny - March 9, 2010
Tony Grossi has an article up on the Wallace trade here, where he gets some quotes from a league source. It sounds like he generally has the same impression that I have.
Chris Pokorny - March 9, 2010
I like this quote (not because i’m against drafting a QB early), is this what we should expect to be our approach to finding a QB?
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
I’d rather try quinn or throw a 5th pick at Baltimore for Troy Smith than draft a late round QB this year. I don’t see any one guy that I like. LeFevor is probably the closest thing but I’m not a fan. Even the first round qbs this year have questions about them. Not a good year for QBs I guess.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
I’m just wondering if this will be Holgmren’s approach to acquiring a QB. Forgoing the big name, for a guy he likes (who he can mold?) for less money/lower pick. If so, that would probably change many draft predictions.
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
Maybe we should bring in Troy Smith to be the starter and Consider trading quinn. I have to wonder what we could get for quinn this year when there’s a lot of teams that need QBs and not many options. He could bring us a conditional 2nd / third round pick, I’d call shanahan in Washington.
I’d like to see both those guys become productive NFL starters but they both cant start for the browns.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
If it aint a first rounder, it aint a starter.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
Troy Smith? Really? cmon now….we want somewhat proven talent in here not another guy we “root” for…
Red-Right-88 - March 9, 2010
this
dawggonehawaiian - March 9, 2010
Yep, Lefevour
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
EVERY qb will always have questions about them
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
Holmgren never found a starting quality QB as a Seahawks HC/GM
The closest he got was Wallace, who is now being traded for a conditional late-round pick. He certainly did a great job identifying Hasselbeck as a guy he wanted to trade for, but he didn’t seem to be able to develop QBs after The Bald One.
ninjasocks - March 9, 2010
I would be very happy if Holmgren only acquired “one” pro bowl QB.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
and when would he have looked for another QB? And Why? Hasselbeck was still playing and not that old while Holmgren was there. Why would he look for anyone else?
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Didn’t he “find” Hasselbeck?
Ryan Kelsey - March 9, 2010
I assume he meant found one through the draft, but when you have Hasselbeck then there really isn’t a reason to draft a QB in the first couple rounds. As we already know that late round QB’s rarely develop in to anything useful. So I wouldn’t be too worried about Holmgren’s ability to draft a QB when necessary.
Buckeye Brad - March 9, 2010
Bingo.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Actually holmgren did find hasselbeck in the draft. He drafted him in the 6th round for green bay. Then a year after holmgren left green bay to come out to seattle, he traded for hasselbeck.
mpope - March 10, 2010
but out of those picks, wallace was the only one that turned out to be any good.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
But remember, Holmgren was not in charge of the draft for most of those years.
He only had 4 drafts as a GM. Not to say he didn’t influence the draft, but there is no way to know much influence he had outside of those 4 years.
As a GM he used a 3rd round pick on Brock Huard, and he swapped 1st with GB and traded a 3rd to get Hasselbeck. He also had Jon Kitna when he first arrived (along with Warren Moon, who was cut within the first 2 months), so there was an evaluation period were he had to figure out if Kitna was gonna be his guy or not. Probably not that unlike now with Quinn.
He also brought in a bunch of free agent QBs. He brought in Trent Dilfer one year, who stuck around, and in 2002 he brought in Ryan Leaf, Mark Rypien and Jeff George, but I don’t think any of them made it to the regular season roster. So don’t be surprised if there are a lot of QBs run through there until you guys find a starter.
Mind of no mind - March 9, 2010
I think I’m rooting for Troy Smith to be the guy. I’d love to bring former Glenville teammates Troy Smith and Donte Whitner home to play in the orange and brown. I’d make a good story for Terry Pluto at least.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
it’d make a good story*
jaws. - March 9, 2010
He also brought in Charlie French Fry….
Red-Right-88 - March 9, 2010
Well, good story for Terry Pluto? I am on board. Screw the playoffs. We need a good story in the Plain Dealer.
TheDriveStillHurts - March 9, 2010
Maybe we can sign Craig Krenzel while we’re at it. And Maurice Clarrett — when he gets out of jail, of course.
Buckeye Brad - March 9, 2010
rec
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Nah, that’s more of a Bengal thing.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
Ha. Yeah, sounds like a winning plan going forward.
Western Reserve - March 9, 2010
How many times will jaws tell us he is in favor of bringing in Troy Smith???? I think I have read like ten comments int he last five minutes from the guy telling us we should get Troy Smith. We heard you the
first second third fourthtenth time,TheDriveStillHurts - March 9, 2010
Didn’t you know? He’s from Cleveland so he wants to come here to play because he loves the fans so much! He doesn’t even care about getting paid — he’ll play for free!!
Buckeye Brad - March 9, 2010
i heard he’d pay the organization to let him play here. and he agreed to take all of the team uniforms home and wash them after every practice.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
jaws you normally have some really great comments on here, but you are wearing me out with Troy Smith. You should be his agent
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
you missed David Greene who SEA drafted in the 3rd round of 2005. 85th pick overall. Couldnt grasp Holmgren’s West Coast offense & was released in 2007….
sleepy042 - March 9, 2010
Tim Ruskell was the GM in charge of the draft that year, not Mike Holmgren.
I would be surprised if Holmgren didn’t have some input on drafting any QB, but at the same time, not only did Ruskell and Holmgren not get along at all, but Greene fit the Ruskell criteria so perfectly (4 year starter at a big BCS program with no character concerns) that I really don’t think you can lay that one on Holmgren. The examples I listed are from when Holmgren was the GM and had final say on all draft picks and signings.
Mind of no mind - March 9, 2010
I think that’s smart if a couple of conditions are met:
1. You don’t intend this guy to be the franchise guy. If the organization is going to back Quinn, they’ll have less fans calling for the backup if it is a 5th round pick vs. a 1st rounder.
2. There isn’t anyone else on the board you really like.
3. The kid you are drafting has a legit chance to become an NFL QB. They should not be drafting me, for instance. Or someone under 180lbs. They should not draft a cartoon. Anyone with prototypical size, arm, college pedigree, etc. would be the choice.
4. The QB should be a guy the organization thinks will work his butt off.
rufio - March 9, 2010
I’m telling you…I’m sold on the fact that Holmgren is really like Dan Lefevour. I almost bet if he is available in a later round…Mike will take him
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
You're observations about Seneca's dropbacks are fairly accurate.
He likes to take what seems like an eight step drop before popping upright to try and find a passing lane.
BrianL - March 9, 2010
Wallace can run and catch
It bothers me when Cribbs comes in at QB for the wildcat and Quinn goes to a wide receiver position. It’s almost like playing 10 vs. 11. But now imagine Cribbs at QB and Wallace at WR. There are some amazing possibilities.
Bring Wallace in motion for a possible reverse, who does the defense cover? Cribbs or Wallace?
JB-Cleve - March 9, 2010
Cribbs threw a pass to BQ this year. Also, I have seen Troy Smith line up in the Wildcat and throw deep to Flacco.
If the D doesn’t guard the QB, you can throw it to him and he can run for 5 yards and get out of bounds without taking a hit. The CB at least has to align out there.
I do agree that if both Wallace and Cribbs are on the field it expands wildcat possibilities.
rufio - March 9, 2010
Which is what I was intitially saying about Tebow, whom I’d be fine taking with a late 3-4 rd pick.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
absolutely…if he slips that far (which I don’t see happening), but I would not think twice in those rounds for Tebow
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
He’s definitely better than anyone on our current roster (not that’s saying much) so I’m forced to assume he’ll start.
Simmsinns - March 9, 2010
I’m doubtful he starts. Probably just like Mangini bringing in Ratliff.
You want someone who knows the offense during training camp.
Don’t know if we’ll draft a QB or play Quinn, I just don’t think Wallace starts.
skipkirk - March 9, 2010
Agree, Wallace is there to teach Quinn the ropes along with a late round draft pick QB
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
“Teach Quinn the Ropes”? BQ had better know the ropes already…how many years is it now?
Maybe some help with the offense, but from what I gather it wont’ be totally revamped and Wallace may need help from Quinn there.
Red-Right-88 - March 9, 2010
Quinn has shown he knows the offense, but still sucks.
danvail - March 9, 2010
this offense will be different…mark my words on that
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
The offense may differ some, but overall it should still be the same. If they were changing it completely, why would they have kept Daboll?
Crazy Ray - March 9, 2010
why would they have hired Haskil then?
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Did you notice last year’s playcalling?
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
exactly, thats why I’m telly Ray above the offense is going to completely change!!!
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
yes. Haskell is a “senior advisor” to holmgren. Haskell has reported to have many meetings with Daboll.
what would Haskell be talking about if it wasn’t the West Coast offense…Haskell was the OC for 8 years in seattle.
heckert also has experience drafting for a WC offense.
The final piece of evidence is that we got a holmgren guy who has worked for several years under the WC offense.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
I’m pretty sure the true “West Coast Offense” doesn’t exist anymore, and even if it did, it’s been around long enough for defenses to know it in and out. Plus Holmgren has been quoted as saying that he won’t be installing the west coast offense.
North Coast Flea - March 11, 2010
the “true” west coast offense might not exist anymore…if we are talking about the playbook that Bill Walsh used. However, in seattle, Holmgren ran something similar to the original west coast offense. Andy Reid has a similar style in Philly (which he learned from Holmgren).
Yes he has been saying he won’t install the WCO, but by the strict definition of what the west coast offense really is, what he runs might not be the original WCO. It is a variation but not the original. Not only that, but his OC from seattle, Gil Haskell has been meeting with our OC and talking a lot of strategy. Holmgren also went out and got a guy in seneca wallace that knows his system.
you may be right that the true “west coast offense” doesn’t exist anymore. the only true “WCO” might have been bill walsh. no one uses his playbook.
however, the West coast offense is more of an offensive philosophy than it is an actual offensive playbook. by this sense, it is still very prevalent. the theories in general were used liberally in the playbooks holmgren used in seattle.
bross09 - March 11, 2010
very nicely stated….props
Kimble_79 - March 11, 2010
yeah. obviously there is some sort of west coast philosophy somewhere in the NFL. that is all it is, an offensive philosophy.
bross09 - March 11, 2010
Since the so-called “West Coast Offense” is coming to town, I figure this is a good time to post a link.
This wikipedia page will tell you everything you wanted to know about the buzzword “West Coast Offense” to clear up any misconceptions.
jaws. - March 11, 2010
Wikipedia is wrong a lot, especially about football terms that lack essential or stable meanings.
rufio - March 12, 2010
That article is pretty accurate, at least as far as what I know.
Paul Zimmerman of SI was always writing about the misuse of the phrase West Coast Offense, how it’s applied to the Walsh offense when that wasn’t its original use. He called the Walsh offense the “Cincinnati Offense” because it was originally developed by Walsh in Cincinnati under Paul Brown.
Buckeye Brad - March 12, 2010
yep. the phrase west coast offense makes people think it is an actual offensive playbook, when it really isn’t. it is a philosophy used in many playbooks.
bross09 - March 12, 2010
There are still things about it that bother me. They say the WCO “may simply refer to an offense that places a greater emphasis on passing than on running.”
We saw in Seattle that this is not true (Shaun Alexander). There are, in fact, many philosophies within things that are commonly thought of as West Coast offenses, and there are many “West Coast” principles or tactics that every team employs.
Overall, it does a much better job than I expect most fans to do.
rufio - March 14, 2010
This is just conjecture based on what Seneca said after he was signed:
I think our offense will involve a few more west coast (Walsh-ian) “concepts”, basically meaning route combinations.
I do not think Holmgren’s influence will mean that we will pass 60x a game. I do not think it will mean we become a 3-step drop team. I do not think it will mean we always will use short-to-deep pass progressions. I think good portion of the offense we saw toward the end of the year will remain the same.
I just think we will have a few “series” from the Walsh/Holmgren playbooks. Basically, that we will have a few groups of similar plays—potentially both passes and runs—that Daboll didn’t know how to implement before this year.
rufio - March 12, 2010
I agree. It does make more sense that we would not run a full on WCO, but I believe that we will implement some of the strategies.
bross09 - March 12, 2010
I think we will definitely use more 3 step drops and route combinations out of Holmgren’s playbook. Depending on the stability of the quarterback position I would definitely look for Holmgren to implement the whole “pass to set up the run” aspect of his offense.
In the modern NFL the teams that are competitive year in and year out by and large have good short/intermediate passing games that “set up the run.” It is just too difficult anymore to subsist on trying to establish the power running game and then try and work almost exclusively out of play action.
jaws. - March 12, 2010
I just don’t think we will have any sort of success passing to set up the run.
When Holmgren had Shaun Alexander, he ran first. So even if Holmgren’s hand is clearly in the O, we will run to set up the pass unless we magically become a lot better through the air.
We subsisted to the tune of a 4-game winning streak via the run last year. The Jets made a playoff run via the run last year. We don’t have a lot of talent at WR or QB.
rufio - March 14, 2010
reality is
it’s way to early to know what the FO has in mind. I’m glad we got Pashos. I didn’t expect a linebacker, but like Fujita. My sails went flat for the pre-draft hype by not getting Thomas Jones. Davis may have been rehabbing very well, IDK. IMO (greatest hope) the FO knows exactly what will help the team win, what I know is that IDK s**t about trying to guess what the FO knows. lol.
dawggonehawaiian - March 9, 2010
Rotoworld likes to think that Seneca is now most likely our starter and that the only sort of competition will come from drafting a rookie QB this year.
SpecialBrownie - March 9, 2010
dawggonehawaiian is probably right, but we just don’t know right now. I’m glad we picked him up and believe he is a solid backup, possibly competing for the starting job. But my guess is that he is just there to mentor the offense. Who knows though…Holgmren may have plans of starting him?
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Does this mean the Troy Smith thing isn’t going to happen?
Andrew Tolliver - March 9, 2010
I think Wallace has a good chance at starting. He’s fast, can throw the deep, and better than BQ.
I’m not clicking my heels over the move, but I’m gunna jump out the window either.
Sorry Smith lovers. Doesn’t look like that’s gunna happen now. hehe
Brownie's Year - March 9, 2010
As always, I smile whenever these sorts of ideas come around. That said, I don’t feel like it’s at all clear what Wallace’s role here is intended to be. Interesting move though….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - March 9, 2010
agree completely…is his role to mentor Brady, mentor a draft pick, mentor the team in Holmgrens offense, or to start? We don’t know!!!! They are quite a few haters on here moaning and groaning. You don’t even know what the plan is yet? Relax and breath and let Mike do his job
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Yeah, same here — but, as you allude to, ultimately we are only talking about a fraction of offensive plays.
Western Reserve - March 9, 2010
A. Troy Smith has as much a chance of starting for the Browns right now as Tim Couch.
B. Holmgren and company has said 2 things that people are forgetting. 1) they were actively looking to solve the QB issue and 2) they don’t believe in QB competitions. If Quinn or Anderson are not named the starters this week, they are not going to be the starters. By going after David Carr and Seneca Wallace, the Browns are looking for a transition starting QB, not a backup. They could have found a cheap backup in free agency without giving up any draft picks.
J.J - March 9, 2010
Right. I think Chad Pennington and David Carr are a notch above Seneca Wallace. We failed in pursuing them.
That said, if you´re progressive, several quarterbacks that can rush and receive passes is exciting. It´s one upping the wild-cat.
With Seneca Wallace as the starter though, you can not be planning to dominate, it´s a very conservative approach. I don´t remember giving anyone time to win ever, you should be feeling the winning perogative at all times within a fair set of rules, depleted roster or not, that´s what spurs you on to get better players. All the actions to indicate there is time, are deplorable.
mooncamping - March 9, 2010
….did Mooncamping just say something smart? Tell me I’m not imagining this.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
It’s not just you.
North Coast Flea - March 9, 2010
Thought I was tripping acid for a second there….
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
Seneca is not a starter
All that is said about Seneca is true about his abilities and athleticism but he is definitely not a starter. Not very good at delivering the football and doesn’t make good decisions with the ball in his hands. The highlight of his career in Seattle is the year we went to the Superbowl, he made a huge catch for a first down when we split him out as a reciever. Honestly I think he would be a great possesion reciever if that is what he wanted to do. He has great hands and great athleticism and a few of the routes he has run were executed pretty well. He wants to play QB and so that is why he will spend much of his talent sitting on the bench as a backup wherever he goes. Hats off to Browns fans for aquiring Holmgren though he will make your franchise better, too bad my Seahawks were stupid and let him go!
Unclesk - March 9, 2010
why does Holmgren and NickelBacks song “With arms wide open” seem to playing in my head
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Creed?
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
LOL…I stand corrected…my bad
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
I always get those two confused
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Nickelback=Assclowns
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
Hey, don’t be hating on my guys.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
Instead of making their last album, they should have just put some shit in a case and sold it for $20.
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
Nickleback =
AssclownsWorst band ever. The lead singer “Papa Hanson” is the lamest singer ever.Creed is at the same suckitude.
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Rec x1000
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
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Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
His spelling is worse.
Bernie19Kosar - March 10, 2010
I voted “yes” at first glance, but now I think he may be there to help/push Quinn.
Maybe Quinn gets one more year and if he can’t do it, then we draft a QB in 2011. Or get Troy Smith ;-)
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Absolutely…he is there to help Quinn learn the offense quicker that Mike wants to run
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
Yeah. That was a knee-jerk vote. My first thought was “yes” because we’ve heard that the FO isn’t too high on Quinn and I thought “Oh maybe Wallace will come in for a year and be the starter since he already knows the offensive system”. Then if that didn’t work, draft a QB in 2011 (or get one through FA or a trade).
emily522 - March 9, 2010
plus, from what I have read on the guy, has a great locker room presence. Which lord knows our brownies are in need of
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
correction
What I meant to say in my previous post is Seneca made a huge catch in the Championship game against Carolina, not in the Superbowl..lol! He is definitely a good flex/utility guy but not a good starter. Browns have a ton of talent and Holmgren in the organization will definitely make the Browns a team to respect in the next 2 to 4 years.
Unclesk - March 9, 2010
just an off note here, but what you think about your Sehawks setting up a workout session with Tebow?
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
I don’t know, not a fan of the QBs in this years draft. But Seattle needs one to take over following Hasselback and you gotta think it needs to be this year. Personally I am not a fan of Tebow but whomever comes in will have some time to get used to the NFL and the system w/o having to be the starter, which I think is ideal. I never could have imagined that Sanchez would have had the season he had with NY though so who knows.
Unclesk - March 9, 2010
i think wallace may start. i’m convinced holmgren has a plan for this team, and a spot in the lineup for every guy he brings in.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
Wallace could be Quinn’s backup to help him learn the system. DA’s gone.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
i’m not convinced quinn is necessarily going to the be the starter…. if you take a look at wallace’s 2008 stats they are really quite good, 11 TD, 3 INT, 58% completion percentage through 8 games with really no supporting cast. i would take that any day of the week over what we had last year…
sww2109 - March 9, 2010
agreed. the odds are that neither BQ nor Wallace are our future, so who do you think holmgren wants steering the ship during the transition period, until we get our long term starter? “his guy”, that he knows and has worked with. i understand he can’t have a whole team of “his guys”, but if there is one position that he would want that, its QB.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
I’m thinking he wants a guy who knows the preferred offense so that they won’t have to change too much of it, allowing the players around the QB to get experience running the preferred offense and not a simplified/modified version of it.
In other words, if Quinn can’t pick it up or doesn’t succeed, he’s gone and we have Seneca running the offense for better or worse.
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
So, I was watching ESPN first take today and these two guys (wish I could remember their names…) said our 1st round pick should be Dez Bryant or CJ Spiller.
I could be convinced to take Bryant IF Berry was gone and the FO was convinced that Haden wasn’t worth a 7th pick. Spiller, I like him, but no. RB is not the biggest of the Browns unlike whatshisface said.
Maybe when these two made their predictions they assumed Berry would be gone already.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Boo to either. If there’s no Bradford, Suh, McCoy, or Berry, then I want out of that spot.
danvail - March 9, 2010
I just hope the chiefs aren’t in love with berry and will trade picks with us.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
boo to dez. I feel he will have a rougher transition than people think into the NFL. over the last couple years, the guys that make the most impact their first year are
a) precise route runners
b) speedsters who run decent routes and can get consistent separation.
Dez is neither. he has good speed but not elite speed. he will never be a huge vertical threat in the NFL. his skills are leaping, muscling out players, and catching the ball. He doesn’t have bad speed, but his straight line speed and deep speed is one of the weaker aspects of his game.
the weakest aspect of Dez’s game though is his route running. he is a very pedestrian route runner. guys like this tend to have a rougher transition into the NFL from what I have seen.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Bryant is a “football player”. He will be good if he isn’t/doesn’t become a jackass.
rufio - March 10, 2010
I agree. I am personally not a huge fan of his game and I think personally he is a little overhyped…still, he is a good player and I didn’t mention that. he reminds me of a bigger, more talented version of Brandon Marshall (except worse route running). He IS deadly in the end zone. I just don’t want to take an overhyped jackass.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
He is smaller than Brandon Marshall.
I think Crabtree is one of the better comparisons, but that’s based on a very limited body of NFL work.
rufio - March 10, 2010
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Yeah, Dez will dominate. I really would be happy if we picked him.
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
I like Dez a lot, but he falls under my general dislike for drafting WRs.
Roger Dorn - March 13, 2010
I’m in this boat. And I would take McCoy off that list.
rufio - March 10, 2010
not a fan of McCoy?
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Nope.
rufio - March 10, 2010
yeah. I don’t think he would fit the 3-4 anyways, and I do agree he is a bit overrated.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
If we ran a 4-3 I would like him, but the 2 gap system would completely waste his abilities.
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
I think his wide body would be excellent as a 2 gap end. He’d fit in as a 4 tech.
gahnki - March 13, 2010
I think he could play in our system, I just think he will bust. Call me Butch, it’s a gut feeling.
rufio - March 14, 2010
I expect Bryant to drop.
I don’t want a RB in the first. Ever.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
I wouldn’t mind an RB in the late first (if we ever have the luxury of picking then).
skipkirk - March 9, 2010
Bryant..nope, Spiller…nope, either Berry, Haden, Suh, McCoy or trade down for more picks
Kimble_79 - March 9, 2010
I would be fine with Bryant. He will dominate in the NFL
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
Crazy hypothetical for everyone… what if all four of these players were available: Suh, McCoy, Berry, and Bradford (or Clausen if he’s your #1QB prospect) at 7th overall.
Trade down is not available. Who do you take?
danvail - March 9, 2010
suh, unless holmgren thinks bradford is our peyton manning.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
What if he wasn’t Peyton Manning, but Eli. You’d be getting a top 12 (ish) QB. Good but not great. But certainly not awful.
danvail - March 9, 2010
I wonder if Eli would be Eli on the Browns.
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
I think he would. He doesn’t have great targets in NY, and I dare say we have a better line and a credible run threat.
But that’s really beside the point. I’m simply asking if one thinks a given prospect has to be the next Peyton in order to be picked over Suh or Berry or McCoy.
danvail - March 9, 2010
I’d say yes. If we knew Sam Bradford was the next Peyton Manning for sure, I’d take him in two seconds.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Sure, but what if he was Brees? or Rivers? How about Eli or Schaub?
danvail - March 9, 2010
It’s hard to answer this question because we haven’t had a QB in such a long time that I’d take any of those guys.
I’m going to say that if Bradford or Clausen was the next Brees or Rivers I would pick him over Berry, Suh, or McCoy.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
See I’d take him if he was going to be the next Eli. That’s how much I think we need a quarterback.
danvail - March 9, 2010
Yeah, I may take an Eli too. I was debating that when I posted.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
I’d still take him.
Personally, I think Suh and Berry will be dominant and Bradford will be good. I think you have to take Bradford in that case simply because of positional value. I think McCoy busts.
I think my board would be Bradford, Suh, Berry with all things considered. But honestly, I haven’t given it much thought because I am praying one of those guys will be available when we pick.
rufio - March 10, 2010
That’s my board, plus McCoy at 4th, for the #7 pick.
If one of those guys isn’t there I want out, down to #15 or so, or lower if we’re getting better value.
danvail - March 10, 2010
peyton is just the example i used. if he thinks bradford will be a pro bowl QB that will consistently take our team to the playoffs and beyond, i hope he takes him. brees, eli, rivers, whatever the comparison.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
That’s where I’m at as well. As much as I would love to pull the trigger on an elite prospect like Suh or Berry, those are luxury pieces that the Browns cannot afford. We need a QB to the point where I’d take Bradford out of those four.
danvail - March 9, 2010
Bradford would be nice. But I’d take Suh or Berry. I think we can win with Quinn or somebody else. Might as well add the elite other piece and hope either Quinn or somebody else can win ball games for you. If you can’t get a qb to step up this year, go to the draft next year looking for QBs.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
A valid thought, but I’m already convinced Quinn isn’t going to ever get to even Eli’s level. My worst fear is everything turning around and Quinn looking passable, winning 7-8 games behind solid play of other units, and sticking around long enough to screw up a few years and possibly a good FO situation.
danvail - March 10, 2010
pretty sure that guy was named Derek Anderson
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Precisely.
danvail - March 10, 2010
Or Tim Couch, or even Kelly Holcomb.
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
Those guys were better than what we have right now. Don’t forget neither had any help anywhere in the offense.
danvail - March 12, 2010
I am of the belief that Couch could have been good with a decent supporting cast, Kelly Holcomb is just garbage, who got inspired in a season long QB battle.
North Coast Flea - March 13, 2010
I think Couch would have been good had he not been beaten half to death because of our horrible OL.
rufio - March 14, 2010
I think if it was clear that we were 8-8 and had a Baltimore 2000ish team that we’d take a QB in the first. I think Mangini and Holmgren are too smart to play Quinn for 3 years if he is never really good. And they’re smart enough to know you can’t have too many good QBs.
rufio - March 10, 2010
I would hope so as well, but there’s plenty that could delay pulling the trigger, at least hypothetically. Perhaps they run into the situation where they can choose between the good QB and the great/elite “X” a few times. If they feel that Quinn is A) well liked and B) not terrible and C) they can get away with waiting another year, well then maybe we endure another year of mediocrity.
It’s all hypothetical, for certain, but it’s just something I’d rather avoid. Get the QB in place ASAP. Take the luxury pieces later.
danvail - March 12, 2010
NY’s receivers are probowlers compared to ours. Nicks and Manningham are better than Massoquoi. There other receivers are all better than Stuckey and Robo
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
I would put MoMass on par with Manningham. I did not get to watch a lot of Nicks, but assume he drew the #1 CB.
Remember, MoMass was the only credible receiving threat on our team for a lot of the year last year, whereas Manningham is probably not a defense’s primary concern.
That said, we might have the worst group of receivers in the league.
rufio - March 10, 2010
I’m pretty sure Steve Smith was the guy getting the #1 corner.
BrownDawg1409 - March 10, 2010
I don’t think he did at the beginning of the season but i’m not sure.
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
He was incredible early, so it definitely had to be Steve Smith. Nicks didn’t get going until 5-6 games into the season. Manningham after a hot start, was actually pretty bad down the stretch. I would take MoMass over Mario, but not the other two.
Roger Dorn - March 10, 2010
I just thought I remember hearing that he wasn’t being covered with the #1 early because teams weren’t expecting him to sustain it or maybe that was Austin or it could have all been in my head.
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
I was under the impression that after Nicks started getting used to the NFL, he was drawing the #1. Previously, Smith would have gotten the #1.
But really the larger point I am trying to make is that the Giants have 2-3 goot-to-very-good WRs and another 2ish average WRs. There are solid targets all over the place. We have MoMass.
If I am a defense, I have no problem playing man with no help on any of our TEs, and any of our WRs except Mass and maybe Cribbs (simply because if he does get his hands on the ball you will probably need more than 1 CB to take him down).
Manningham is in a situation to look a lot better than Mass.
rufio - March 10, 2010
He would be Cooper
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Dude. Not cool.
SpecialBrownie - March 9, 2010
Wow, that’s tough. I think I’d have to go with Suh. Berry would be really tempting though…
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Suh.
Always take the dominating lineman.
I was very tempted to take Berry though.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Berry
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
DTs have the highest bust rate
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
You sure about that?
Off the top of my head I would guess WR.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
actually receiver is higher, but DT is a close second.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
DTs have a higher bust rate than QBs according to walterfootball.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
yep…guys drafted that high eventually turn into average starters, but very few live up to the draft position.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Eric Berry
BrutalMovement - March 10, 2010
I’d stick with Berry because:
We’re OK at NT so no to Suh; not sufficient improvement (If only he were a DE..)
McCoy is more of a 4-3 guy. No idea if that would translate to a 3-4 end but after Corey…. let’s not even go there.
We’re just not ready to plug in a good QB. Maybe next year. And Quinn deserves a proper go with a proper coaching set up (and of course there’s Seneca too now).
Finally: I love dominat safeties to build a D around. Someone compared Berry to Ronnie Lott. I wouldn’t even check the price tag after a rec like that…
LondonBrown - March 12, 2010
I think Suh could line up at DE in a 3-4, and of course so can Rogers. Plus, you want a rotation at NT anyway to keep the big, fat line on fresh legs.
I don’t get the idea of a player “deserving” an unearned starting spot. If the coaches aren’t sold on him, go at least get an alternative. Maybe that’s what Wallace is, but really as a fan, debating between the merits of one piece of crap over a different style lump of shit… well you get idea.
danvail - March 12, 2010
Agreed on everything.
gahnki - March 12, 2010
Fair point, my “deserves” doesn’t really work there. He has his deal.
But if we write off his rookie season to Anderson’s freak year, the second was an all round mess and I don’t think last year on the fieldwas really any better (I think Mangini was doing some good work in getting the house in order though).
Quinn is probably best suited to a WCO and with the people there to implement it… we’ll see. I’m just not ready to bail on the investment yet.
LondonBrown - March 12, 2010
absolutely Ndamukong Suh could play 3-4 DE. He could probably be dominant at that position.
jaws. - March 12, 2010
Suh can play DE for us.
rufio - March 14, 2010
“According to beat writer Tony Grossi, Brady Quinn could be “shipped out” after the recent trade for Seneca Wallace.
Derek Anderson is already as good as gone, and Quinn won’t be able to learn Mike Holmgren’s West Coast offense and beat out Wallace in one offseason. The Browns may look to draft a quarterback in the second or third round, but Wallace is easily the favorite start Week 1."
Grossi’s the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, isn’t he? Pluto’s the one who does. Am I flipping the two?
emily522 - March 9, 2010
As someone who is clearly not a fan of Quinn, this scenario seems silly in my opinion. Why go into the season with Wallace and a rookie who isn’t ready to start as your only viable options at the most important position on the field? Why limit yourself like that unless you get a huge return for Quinn? Even if you did do this, wouldn’t you bring in a journeyman vet?
danvail - March 9, 2010
Yeah, I totally agree. My hope for Brady is pretty much gone, but I don’t think having Wallace and some mid-round rookie as a backup is a good idea.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Grossi is a moron. Pluto knows his stuff.
rufio - March 10, 2010
yep. I love how when he said that we traded corey williams, he insisted that although williams was not a nose, and played a very limited role, this made shaun rogers indispensible in trades, and that rogers is guaranteed a starting spot at DE and will not play at nose (this part makes a little sense)
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Ok, that’s what I thought.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
Walterfootball’s most recent mock draft:
Round 1: Berry (First six picks: Bradford, Okung, Suh, Clausen, Bulaga, McCoy)
Round 2: Kareem Jackson, CB, Alabama
→ I’ve heard some good things about this guy. On ESPN they said he was the “sleeper” in Alabama’s defense. Ran a 4.41 at the combine.→ I have never heard of this guy. I’m sure some of you have.Round 3: Andre Roberts, WR, The Citadel
Round 3: Jamar Chaney, ILB, Mississippi State—> Same.
Round 4: Dan LeFevour, QB, Central Michigan
emily522 - March 9, 2010
I have no clue why that got crossed out.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
think it was the dashes in your arrows
Villeslgr - March 9, 2010
Ah yeah, must be that
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Really like the first two rounds.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Same here.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Yep. Andre Roberts is decent too.
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
I would be thrilled with that.
rufio - March 10, 2010
exactly what I was thinking
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Love that draft shake out for us, LOVE it. first two rounds great, Jamar Chaney had an amazing combine, could be a nice sleeper. Not crazy about drafting a QB, like I said I’m not in love with this draft’s QBs, think I’d rather give up the 5th and take a chance on Troy Smith.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
Really? I didn’t know you liked Troy.
TheRealSlimShady - March 9, 2010
Troy Smith just called me jaws…he said that if he wanted anymore of your lip for his trade to cleveland, he would just pull it off his zipper
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Dude………. hahaha
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Oh shnap
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
One thing that keeps pissing me off about walterfootball was he continues to say that we traded away our #5 pick for “nothing” aka Alex Mack when we could have had Sanchez. Yeah, Mack had a real crap of a season…
emily522 - March 9, 2010
and sanchez was a real pro bowler…
statistic wise he was not significantly better than BQ this year…with a much better supporting cast.
put BQ on that team, and they do better…Put sanchez on this team and he sucks even more.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
As much as I’m down on Quinn I agree with this.
danvail - March 10, 2010
yep. I am not a quinn fan but sanchez was not significantly better…
bross09 - March 10, 2010
A lot of good analysts are not at all sold on the Sanchise. Football Outsiders has hated on him hardcore for a while now.
danvail - March 10, 2010
for good reason. He had a .6/1 TD/INT ratio…
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Requires Insider access, but for anyone with it looking to feel even better about trading down last year, I present this.
Notable quote:
For Sanchez, we’re limiting our sample to players who were first-year starters… imagine our horror when the closest match for Sanchez turned out to be current Raiders punch line JaMarcus Russell.
danvail - March 10, 2010
Last part should be in the block quote as well.
danvail - March 10, 2010
But don’t most rookies throw more INTs than TDs? Or close to it?
emily522 - March 10, 2010
There’s much more to dislike about Sanchez than that ratio. His YPA and completion percentage for instance.
danvail - March 10, 2010
Oh, I know. He was like the Trent Dilfer for the Jets this year.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
perfectly said
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
His YPA wasn’t terrible, just wasn’t great…It was pretty pedestrian at 6.7.
yeah, his completion percentage was dreadul (less than 54%)
Also, even for a rookie QB he was extremely fumble prone (with the snap likely). He had 10 fumbles in 15 games…that is 2/3 of a fumble every game…not good.
I thought his positives were being comfortable in a pro style offense? I didn’t see that.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Given the offensive style, it was pretty awful.
danvail - March 12, 2010
the YPA? i would not call it awful. they were a running team anyways. when you consider he had steve smith it seems a little worse too. still, that is the one thing he was able to still do well…but that is no reason to go out and get him.
bross09 - March 12, 2010
I’m talking about Mark Sanchez.
danvail - March 12, 2010
oh…I forgot which QB I was talking about and which article this was…my bad.
anyways, the Jets were also a running team too…I agree with you though it wasn’t good.
bross09 - March 12, 2010
Football Outsiders just published something saying that the only similar comp they could find for Sanchez was Jamarcus Russell. Food for thought.
Roger Dorn - March 10, 2010
That’s the biggest insult to a QB.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
I think a Ryan Leaf comparison would hurt more.
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
True
emily522 - March 10, 2010
Or a Mike Phipps.
People forget about him. He was dreadful. He always seems to be left off of the lists of biggest busts. He was drafted 3rd overall. plus as a QB he was just about as bad as Leaf…just without the attitude (except I think I heard he was a prima donna)
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Yeah that was the article I posted, it was written by a FO guy for Insider.
danvail - March 12, 2010
Maybe close, but 12 TDs to 20 INTs is not good even for a rookie.
Here are some TD/INT ratios for recent rookies
Ryan: 1.45/1 (16/11)
Flacco: 1.17/1 (14/12)
Russell: .5/1 (2/4)
Stafford: .65/1 (13/20) but if you take out the games he played injured its .8/1 (11/14)
Cutler (in 5 starts): 1.8/1 (9/5)
Leinart: .92/1 (11/12)
VY: .92/1 (12/13)
Stafford: .6/1 (12/20)
Roethlisberger: 1.5/1 (17/11)
The point is:
Yes there are some Rookies who don’t have a great TD/INT ratio and there are definitely some that are close to 1/1…Over the last few years, "Sanchize"’s Rookie stats are truly an outlier. there is only one I listed that was close, and that was stafford from this year, and once you take away the games where he was hurt, he seems fairly normal for a rookie. most rookies fall between .8/1 TD/INT to 1.5/1 TD/INT and many ARE around 1/1…
still, .6/1 is very bad and for a rookie who played that much time. in fact, the only player with worst is Alex smith in his dreadful rookie year with a .09/1 TD/INT ratio (1/11)
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Oh I didn’t know that Sanchez’s was 12:20. For some reason I thought it was like 16:20. Never mind.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
yeah…it was pretty bad…combine that with a 53.8 completion percentage and 10 fumbles and you have a dreadful QB.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
But they still managed to get to the AFC Championship. Thank Thomas Jones and the defense for that.
If Sanchez gets better, which I think he will, the Jets will be a scary team.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
Scary because they’ll attempt to eat everything right?
Such as Oakland hotdogs and having a 7,000 daily calorie intake?
Holy Buhjesus.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
Ha!
emily522 - March 10, 2010
lol…yep. isn’t that about the amount of calories Michael Phelps eats?
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Those Oakland hotdogs are no joke!
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
yep…I don’t know how likely this will happen though…especially since they lost thomas jones and kept BE.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
yeah…sorry it was so long too…sometimes when I start looking stuff up I give more information than needed and go a little overboard sometimes.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
To be fair, he was throwing to Braylon…
rufio - March 10, 2010
To be fair, Braylon is better than our guys
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
By the way… just saw this on Deadspin. It’s hanging in the club where Ben got into trouble the other night.
danvail - March 9, 2010
Bahahaha.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
That is awesome.
North Coast Flea - March 9, 2010
Funny, I thought this was on the door of our offensive meeting room last season.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
Zing
Nice.
danvail - March 9, 2010
You stole it from ours so we had to make another one.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
I agree with the trade. For the price, we’ve added much needed talent to our offensive schemes. As for our QB situation, I’m not sold on Brady Quinn either. He’s very intelligent. Strong work ethic. Overall, I like the kid. I would rather see us bring Derek back to his 2007 form though. He has the better arm. But I am just a fan. I have no NFL experience as a scout or GM. I trust our newly remodeled front office will make the correct decisions for the Cleveland Browns. Looking forward to 2010.
Jered T - March 9, 2010
bye bye DA
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=10523
The only Browns fan in California - March 9, 2010
You should change your name.
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Why is Holmgren considered a QB guru? Because of Matt Hasselback? Whatever. And farvre was ron wolfs aquisition. Taking wallace over Troy Smith, who has way more upside, is just a travesty.
HenryDawg - March 9, 2010 via mobile
and he is younger. well shanny is consider a qb guru as well which i have no idea why cuz he didnt do anything with cutler
Lancers25 - March 9, 2010
Holmgren is considered a QB guru because he has worked with the following QB’s;
Joe Montana, Steve Young, Brett Favre, Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks, and Matt Hassellbeck have all been coached by Holmgren.
Dude is a genius when it comes to signal callers.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
yep.
Montana was established when Holmgren came in but Montana was at his best with Holmgren. in Holmgren’s first year, Montana won comeback player of the year. Montana had his best seasons statistically with Homgren as QB/OC coach.
Holmgren, before he was the QB coach at Brigham Young University. While there, he developed 2 great QBs, Robbie Bosco (whose career was cut short by injury) and Steve Young. He groomed steve young when he was at BYU and when he was a backup in SF.
While they did not have success under Holmgren, Brunell and Brooks were both backups and coached by him when in Green Bay. they went on to have success after him. Then there is obviously favre and Hasselbeck.
There are some other interesting ones too:
He also developed Doug Pederson into a competent backup. while he was nothing special, he was a small school QB who wouldn’t have been in the league as long as he was without Holmgren.
He also developed Ty Detmer. While he was nothing special, he was a career WC QB and had success in Philly and would have been a good stopgap for couch until he got hurt.
He also found Steve Bono while with SF (and later acquired him in green bay). while bono was not anything special, he knew the offense and was a solid backup.
The point is: not only was he a genius at developing and finding good and great signal callers, he was also great at finding guys that fit his system. He can find an average QB, see how he can play in the WC and make him a competent backup.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
Aaron Brooks was not that good. Other than that it's an impressive list.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
He also worked with Kurt Warner though Kurt did not grasp his system instantly it would seem so he went to Iowa then the Rams.
tkiller314 - March 9, 2010
he is a good backup
Every year since Seneca was in the league I would trade for him in Madden and keep him as my backup. But seriously, the guy knows the west coast offense we are installing in Cleveland. He’s been a part of it his whole career. Believe it or not, he will be a huge help for Quinn, or whoever ends up starting.
V3K - March 9, 2010
Seneca Wallace
CLEVELAND , HERE WE GO AGAIN .Now it’s not a 2 way QB controversy , because now we have 3 back ups that aren’t good enough to start for any team in the league . I’m tired of being a Browns fan
SALTY DAWG - March 9, 2010
fixed.
Dawg Nuts - March 9, 2010
Rec
skipkirk - March 9, 2010
Bam! Rec.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - March 10, 2010
BAAAM!!!
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
F$#& you. Go root for Buffalo.
Bernie19Kosar - March 9, 2010
See? Savage wasn’t all bad.
rufio - March 10, 2010
Bam 2.0! Rec again.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - March 10, 2010
I root for them too. they are the only other NFL team I care about…granted I am a browns fan living in buffalo, but I will never love anyone as much as I love the orange and brown.
but still F*** Him!!
bross09 - March 10, 2010
You are really whiffing on some comments lately.
danvail - March 10, 2010
what do you mean?
Buffalo is the only other NFL team I care about.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
You just don’t get it.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
I finally got the savage thing on the other post. I completely forgot about that.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
That and you missed on emily522’s sarcasm somewhere recently as well.
danvail - March 10, 2010
I said I got it, I was just messing with her really. I completely got the sarcasm, but was making a joke I guess no one got.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Yeah, I get that you were joking, no worries.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
yeah…I think ppl didn’t understand I was joking…and he was also pointing out that I didn’t get this joke.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Fair enough, I guess.
danvail - March 10, 2010
yeah…sometimes jokes just whiff here.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
excellent. rec.
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
Fair weather much?
North Coast Flea - March 10, 2010
holmgren should SAY what he is doing
Going along with “no QB derbies” in training camp, Holmgren should release statements to the fans on what is on his mind, why he is doing things a certain way. The Browns fans deserve to know rather than all this speculative guessing.
This trade and release of Anderson does not make a lot of sense to me – like one person commented that we are watching cinci and baltimore make important acquisitions while the Browns are still doing things that makes everybody scratch their heads and wonder.
odysseus14 - March 9, 2010
Have you watched the Browns since 2007?
Hint: Derek Anderson sucks.
gahnki - March 9, 2010
You make me scratch my head and wonder.
SpecialBrownie - March 9, 2010
You make me scratch my head and wonder.
SpecialBrownie - March 9, 2010
that was definitely worth saying twice. agreed.
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
How about we give him the whole offseason and see what happens then decide if we approve of all of the moves in totality? No? Instead we should complain 5 days into the offseason?
Roger Dorn - March 9, 2010
Great idea. Let’s just tell all the other teams exactly what we want to do. And for that matter, what coaches/personnel people want which moves.
I mean, I’d rather know what our VP is thinking in the first week of FA than win games or something silly like that.
rufio - March 10, 2010
LOL…I was reading down the post and hadn’t made it to yours yet Rufio…or I wouldn’t have wrote my comment. :)
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
I’m sure something will be announced after the draft….we dont wanna tell every NFL team our draft intentions
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Why have I seen like 10 new profiles, all suspicious of Cleveland.com, in the last week?!
SpecialBrownie - March 9, 2010
I don’t know. personally, I was not a cleveland.com poster.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I just remembered that Holmgren did trade for Charlie Frye. Collecting quarterbacks is a hobby of his, so it’s likely that we will add at least one more before the season. I’m thinking a late round guy like LeFevour.
gahnki - March 9, 2010
yep. he met with him, he is perfect for the WCO. I am pretty much convinced we get lefevour. I think that wallace might be the starter for a while and either we keep BQ or go out and get a veteran for a year (more likely the latter). that veteran might start or might just battle it out with wallace. I do not want lefevour starting right away but if he gets trained in the WCO, I think he could be great. I have seen him play and the one player he reminds me of a bit (except for the great strong arm this person had) is Steve young. I know he will never be that good but he has some similar skills and I feel will also be good in the WCO.
bross09 - March 9, 2010
I really don’t want a guy if he isn’t a first rounder. BK19’s analysis was too………eerily accurate.
BrownDawg1409 - March 9, 2010
but holmgren is finding guys later that are good and turning them into good players.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
I have no problem if we draft a late round QB, I just don’t want to hear that player’s name mentioned by casual fans for at least 2.5 years after such a pick.
WE SHOULD START FRYE HES AKRON BOY GOOD FOOTBALL MIND HE CAN WIN LETS GO GET IR DONE
danvail - March 10, 2010
’Er*
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
yeah…
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Ouch.
“NFL Network’s Mike Lombardi expects Brady Quinn to be no better than the Browns’ No. 3 quarterback in 2010.
The alternative would be Cleveland moving Quinn for a late-round pick. According to Lombardi, Quinn is too inaccurate for the Browns’ new West Coast offense. Lombardi also projects Seneca Wallace to be the Browns’ No. 2 QB, and club president Mike Holmgren to find a starter via trade or the draft.”
So… who’s this QB going to be?
emily522 - March 9, 2010
We have this guy readily available for you. His name is Matt, good friend of Seneca's......
Seriously, Lombardi is full of crap and I would not take that info with even a grain of salt. He stirs stuff up every day.
SSreporters - March 9, 2010
I’d take Hasselbeck.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Correct.
Roger Dorn - March 9, 2010
I need to figure out the difference between crappy and good sportswriters haha.
emily522 - March 9, 2010
Well, there is a backstory to Lombardi. He used to run player personnel for the Browns and has a vendetta against the organization now. He makes up a lot of rumors concerning the team and regularly trashes Mangini.
Roger Dorn - March 10, 2010
Wow, I had no idea.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
I guess I really do live in a cave.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
Or 500 miles away in SC.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
600 actually haha.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
Ah, see I regularly go to NC, which is why there is a 100 mile difference
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
Speaking of NC… go figure, the year the Browns FINALLY play the Panthers, they’re in Cleveland. My dad and I would go if it was going to be in Charlotte.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
You’ve got to wait four more years for them to play in Charlotte. Hopefully we’ll be defending our Super Bowl championship by then!
Buckeye Brad - March 10, 2010
I’ll be going to that game then!
emily522 - March 10, 2010
I didn’t know that either actually
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
btw, (to you and everyone) does anyone here read Rolling Stone??? I hate that magazine now…
Mat Taibbi is the biggest idiot on the earth. he is a yellow journalist who writes about how the government is collapsing and all these vast conspiracies. now they have him writing sports and he has no idea what he was talking about. he called the Cowboys new stadium the end of civilization…
but the point is, he is the guy who compared mangini to augustus gloop…
bross09 - March 10, 2010
Quinn fits a WCO better than any other option out there. If he can’t cut it now, he better start preparing a resume.
gahnki - March 9, 2010
my thoughts exactly gahnki
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Lombardi is not very bright and makes up a ton of crap
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Holmgren
Holmgren looked good in SB years , it"s easier when you have the leagues MVP . FAVRE twice and SAlexander . Unfortunately BIG Mike no special teams player [Cribbs] or OLineman [JThomas] have ever carried the coach to a Super Bowl . Mangini,s the same guy who forgot to let Harrison play for most of the season , traded edwards and winslow for draft picks and wonders why we have no experience at WR , in Cleveland we manufacture problems . We invent ways to loose , I been going to every game since 1988 , and damn right I’m salty .Rebuilding for the eleventh consecutive year . Yeah , I’m sick and tired of being a Browns fan , but I won’t being rooting for Buffalo. You’ll grow tired , PUP of being optimistic year after year , Reality sucks , NO STARTING QB , NO WR WITH MORE THAN 50 CATCHES ,NO RB WHO HAS GAINED EVEN 900 YARDS IN A SEASON . AINT NO MVP IN CLEVELAND, THE DAWG IS SALTY
SALTY DAWG - March 9, 2010
I love what mangini did, tell you the truth. Somebody had to be willing to get dirty and dig into our bloated roster and cut out the team cancers. Evidently you can’t build a franchise with a locker room filled with crybabies and headcases like Braylon, Windslow and Derek Anderson. Mangini did the dirty work that a lot of coaches wouldn’t want to do.
jaws. - March 9, 2010
Personally I’ve never tasted dogs or dawgs… salty eh? Thanks for the enlightenment.
skipkirk - March 10, 2010
Have you ever heard of Walter Jones? You know, the HoF-in-waiting left tackle?
rufio - March 10, 2010
You’d think after watching all that football you’d be able to recognize a few things about the realities of the NFL, but maybe that’s a bit above your pay grade.
danvail - March 10, 2010
I’m pretty sure Holmgren took over Green Bay when their team was in a decade long slump and they didn’t have Favre yet, pretty sure he took over Seattle when they had a long slump and Alexander wasn’t there…point is Sherlock that Holmgren gets good players and then wins SuperBowls
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Did reading this give anyone else a headache?
emily522 - March 10, 2010
more of a bowel ache…
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
Shouldn’t have eaten those Salty Chocolate Dawg Balls then…
Rimshot button please…
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
http://instantrimshot.com/
notthatnoise - March 10, 2010
I so love that site.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - March 10, 2010
I love how you went third person there at the end.
Jimmy Clausen would be proud.
Bernie19Kosar - March 10, 2010
TheRealSlimShady - March 13, 2010
SENECA WALLACE
Sorry to sound disloyal , I bleed BROWN and ORANGE . Unfortunately as a DAWG I spend a lot of time bleeding . 3 back up QBs , might as well dump JOE THOMAS , it’s a lot of money to pay somebody when their’s no blind side to protect , that is even a reasonable facsimile of a star . Let Brady Quinn continue to sell jersies to wet , prepubescent girls . I want my money back . It’s taking longer to build this team , than it did to construct the pyramids of Giza .
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
Worst idea of all time. Congrats.
Roger Dorn - March 10, 2010
this is how I psyche myself up in my office , right before I fire girls with no ideals
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
You actually have a job? I take it someone does your “official” typing for you then?
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
Sorry you’re not perceptive enough to recognize sarcasm . Maybe you could post your real picture , instead of one you scanned from your latest copy of Playgirl .
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
gahnki - March 10, 2010
What’s sarcasm gotta do with how people look?
skipkirk - March 10, 2010
Why does me being salty , inspire you to fantasize about tasting dog nuts ?
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
gahnki - March 10, 2010
yep…this was an uncalled for attack. this guy is getting really annoying.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
what? Are you just going around insulting everybody??
bross09 - March 10, 2010
I’m pretty sure it was a play on the South Park Song.
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
Indeed it was.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
well…when you say an outlandish statement seriously one minute and say something outlandish that is sarcastic, how are we supposed to know you are being sarcastic. If this was someone else posting here the same thing you did (someone like rufio or buckeye brad) it would be pretty obvious the sarcasm.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
give the new FO some time…we will be much more competitive next year and I’m still saying we make the playoffs in 2011, IF the NFL even plays games in 2011
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Call me if you want to buy this years seats , but it’s nice to know they might be competitive next year , after they find a new coach , and start yet again .
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
I know what ur saying, but this time round is a lil different. We didn’t hire nobody’s that were just getting their feet wet at FO jobs. We hired proven talent from people with experience. I’m not saying they don’t ever draft some busts or something like that, but they will and know how to build a winning team. aka..Eagles=Heckert, GB and Seattle=Holmgren, and as much as I didn’t like Mangini he did build most of the jets team that Rexie took over in NY.
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
we deserve that , hope you’re right , I was optimistic youth , once upon a time . Now I’m just salty dawg .
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
LOL…thats funny
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
When Peterson ran down the sidelines in week 1 , smacking Cleveland players like little sisters of the poor , it hurt Salty dawg to the core .
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
I cringe every time they show that damn highlight on ESPN!!! We look like a pee-wee league team on that
sorry…that should have went here
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Rec for the third person.
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
George is getting upset!
Buckeye Brad - March 10, 2010
Slow school day huh?
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
It’s always a short school day for george.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
I was on my lunch break.
Buckeye Brad - March 10, 2010
I had assumed so.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
George likes his kung pow spicy!
Bernie19Kosar - March 10, 2010
“JIMMY’S DOWN!!!”
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
rec for reference to post of the year.
jaws. - March 10, 2010
reference to post of the year?
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Who’s George?
emily522 - March 10, 2010
It’s shrinkage.
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
Don’t watch Seinfeld. My dad’s obsessed though.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
Again?
Brownie's Year - March 10, 2010
Gee, thanks. Haha.
emily522 - March 11, 2010
It’s from a Seinfeld episode, I don’t think he meant it.
rufio - March 12, 2010
I know he didn’t mean it. I was kidding.
emily522 - March 12, 2010
start getting obsessed. you will be able to get many more jokes; in life, on the internet, and on here.
bross09 - March 11, 2010
Meh. Not for me.
emily522 - March 11, 2010
If anyone would like to make various Office references, I can do that.
emily522 - March 11, 2010
that is a solid show.
bross09 - March 11, 2010
Anyone watch tonight’s episode? Anyone…?
emily522 - March 11, 2010
why not??? It is a pretty brilliant show.
bross09 - March 11, 2010
I personally find it boring and predictable. thats just my opinion obviously.
notthatnoise - March 11, 2010
Seinfeld is boring and predictable? Really? I’ve never heard anyone say that before. I think it’s the funniest TV show of all time and it’s certainly very original. There has never been a TV show like it before or since. I understand how someone might not like that humor, but I don’t know how anyone could say that it was predictable.
Buckeye Brad - March 12, 2010
Seinfeld is hilarious.
Roger Dorn - March 12, 2010
Always Sunny in Philly comes close, but Seinfeld will always be the best. I still watch it every night.
Brownie's Year - March 12, 2010
Always Sunny has been a great addition to my schedule of shows.
Roger Dorn - March 12, 2010
Love that show.
danvail - March 12, 2010
I thought it was really good the first couple of seasons but they fell off after that (although I haven’t watched it much lately so it may have gotten better). The episode where they start hanging out and drinking with high school kids was absolutely hilarious.
Buckeye Brad - March 12, 2010
I thought Season 4 was fantastic. Season 5, the most recent, was their weakest of the series but still not bad.
Roger Dorn - March 12, 2010
yep…great show. anyone here watch archer on the same channel? it isn’t bad…
bross09 - March 12, 2010
Archer is awesome. Danger Zone!
On a sidenote, I am looking forward to Justified on FX. Anything on FX I like.
Bernie19Kosar - March 12, 2010
I totally agree. I am falling in love with FX. I don’t really get the danger zone thing, if it is an archer reference…but I have only seen the first couple episodes.
bross09 - March 13, 2010
Dude I love FX. The Shield was awesome
jaws. - March 13, 2010
If you like Archer, watch Frisky Dingo, it’s made by the same people and it is hilarious.
North Coast Flea - March 13, 2010
its always sunny is the only show i’ve ever seen that is on an equal playing field with seinfeld, for my money. two funniest shows of all time.
Dawg Nuts - March 12, 2010
Trailer Park Boys is #3 for me.
Brownie's Year - March 13, 2010
LOL, for anyone uninitiated, do not insult Seinfeld around B.B. He’s a self-described fanatic.
gahnki - March 12, 2010
I will second his fanatacism.
bross09 - March 12, 2010
BB and I could have a face-off. I know every word to every episode. Except for the Puerto Rican Day Parade episode. That one is never shown. Have only seen it a few times.
Brownie's Year - March 12, 2010
I’m not a fan of Seinfeld, the comedian or the show. To me, “What’s the deal with that?” is as bad as “You might be a redneck if…”.
North Coast Flea - March 13, 2010
What’s the deal with was rarely used on the show unless it was meant to poke fun at Jerry.
Roger Dorn - March 14, 2010
It wasn’t either the first go around. It was very unique at the time.
danvail - March 12, 2010
I WAS IN THE POOOL!!!!!
bross09 - March 11, 2010
not everyone on this site is a kid you know…
older people tend to assume they’re the only one over the age of 30 that can work a computer.
notthatnoise - March 10, 2010
well, I am surprised he is actually old. not that old people can’t use computers, but the fact that he is being completely immature on this site.
bross09 - March 10, 2010
How much?
Villeslgr - March 10, 2010
If you could please never reference prepubescent girls again that would be wonderful.
danvail - March 10, 2010
Perfectly said!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - March 10, 2010
Yeah, what the hell…
emily522 - March 10, 2010
I smell a lawsuit!
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
i’d suggest you start watching over your shoulder, becasue joe thomas is now actively hunting you. and it won’t take him long to find you. just so you know.
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
Joe Thomas has in fact already hunted him down. He is crouching on a tree branch with an antique medieval long bow sitting in front of his living room window. When Salty Dawg goes to sit down and watch the first game of the season, Thomas will strike and blue and red blood will pour, exposing Salty Dawg for what he truly is; A Buffalo fan.
SpecialBrownie - March 10, 2010
Rec for creativity.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
in my humble opinion, this is one of the greatest comments ever made on this site. creative, funny, touches on multiple themes of the site. kudos to you, my man.
Dawg Nuts - March 10, 2010
I think he is already there…
bross09 - March 10, 2010
I cringe every time they show that damn highlight on ESPN!!! We look like a pee-wee league team on that
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Should be banned from this viewing area
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
I should add that Seneca is a good trick play receiver
To offset his QB skills. This if anything is what we liked about Seneca…(1st game of this past season)
SSreporters - March 10, 2010
That was a pretty cool play.
danvail - March 10, 2010
He's perfect for that.
If Seneca had been traded to Cleveland in this same situation….3-4 years ago I could see him being able to convert to full-time WR.
SSreporters - March 10, 2010
that was good play, someone got creative on the offensive side with that one.
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
But can he play Quarterback ? Nice catch and run , Let him try out for receiver
SALTY DAWG - March 10, 2010
The only bad thing
Is that the very next play Hasselbeck was intercepted. Otherwise this was one of my favorite plays of the season.
SSreporters - March 10, 2010
UPDATE: The pick we gave up is a 2011 7th rounder that can become a 6th rounder based on playing time. Even if you are ‘meh’ on Wallace, it’d be difficult to get upset about what we gave up.
Roger Dorn - March 10, 2010
Yeah.
emily522 - March 10, 2010
I like the trade…I’m not feeling great about it or mad about it. Good trade to get a seasoned QB with a lower salary I’m guessing than Anderson
Kimble_79 - March 10, 2010
Look at that people!
Mike Holmgren has already gotten us a starting QB with a late draft pick!
All hail Hoheni!
Bernie19Kosar - March 10, 2010
Yep, I’m not upset. If it was a 4th I would have maybe been a little irked. 3rd I would have been mad. 6th-7th is nothing.
rufio - March 12, 2010
HE BETTER BE TOM BRADY HE WAS SIX ROUNDER PLUS MICHGAN SUX SO GO BUCKS WHOOO
danvail - March 12, 2010
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