The Cleveland Browns certainly aren't having the positive end to the season that they had last year, losing two weeks in a row to the teams in the AFC with the worst records in the conference.
In today's 19-17 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals, it was discouraging to see Cedric Benson and Bernard Scott run over the Browns at will. Benson had 31 carries for 150 yards, and Scott had 8 carries for 40 yards. Due to the low number of points the Bengals scored, it might seem like the defense kept us in the game. It didn't really feel that way though, as the Bengals' strong ground game, combined with a couple of efficient third-down conversions by Carson Palmer, allowed them to eat up the clock and prevent Cleveland from sustaining drives of their home.
Even though it was a division loss, the return of one player made this week's loss feel a little more positive: Colt McCoy.
If you want to look at the main problems Cleveland had offensively against the Bengals, it was the failure of the right side of the line once again. This is a position that Tom Heckert should put at the top of his priority list next season.
McCoy made a lot of very good throws against Cincinnati, especially ones down the left sideline and ones over the middle amidst defenders to Ben Watson. McCoy finished the day 19-of-25 for 243 yards and 2 touchdowns. He didn't seem fazed in his first game back, looking as calm as ever and showing enough mobility to remove any doubt regarding his health heading into the game.
A little more aggressiveness by the Browns' defense was needed today. Whether it be a lack of adjustments by defensive coordinator Rob Ryan or our defense not having a leader in the front seven, it was really the first time this season where the defense almost seemed uninspired.
One question that will definitely be posed to head coach Eric Mangini after the game is why he didn't send kicker Phil Dawson out for a field goal at the end of the second quarter. The Browns seemed to be in field goal range and there weren't reports of strong winds prior to the game.
0 recs | 567 comments
One thing is clear – Colt can move this offense when it counts. Unfortunately in most situations its been too little too late.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Tebow scored a 40 yard TD run.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Tearing it up through the air as well I see.
1 of 5 for 1 yard passing.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
So right after I post this he throws a TD pass from the 33 yard line.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
Bottom line
Two weeks in a row of losing games to inferior teams and NOT looking good in the process. This team is NOT rebuilding! This team is sinking. Major changes needed and not just draft choices!
Rush City - December 19, 2010
no, no, no. this is the mentality that has caused the suckitude of the last decade.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
We had 2 bad weeks, c’mon man!
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
This loss was the end of Daboll at Cleveland.
And John St. Clair… I can’t quite find the words. Depressing. I guess that’s the only word that comes to mind that I could legally post on the board.
Later folks. I can’t stand the excitement around here at this point so I’m heading out with my other half for some food and a good pilsner or two – hopefully lift my spirits a bit.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
i don’t understand how the offense can go from so capable/creative/effective on the first drive to absolute nothingness until 3 minutes to go in the game. inconceivable.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
This
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
great pre-game planning, poor adjustments.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Epitaph for a season, that.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
Yeah, and this isn’t the first time we’ve seen this happen this year either.
Western Reserve - December 20, 2010
It has been a sad pattern.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
This has happened all year. Daboll plays scared; he plays not to lose. We have to play to win.
rufio - December 20, 2010
THIS, THIS, THIS, THIS, and THIS
burntorangeandbrown - December 21, 2010
This logic should be used around the goalline too.
Simmsinns - December 21, 2010
Especially down there.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Cleveland forced one punt. The offense moved on the opening drive and then waited until the end when Cincy went into prevent to move again. This was as bad as last week’s stinker.
elsandito - December 19, 2010
1. Fire Daboll and Mangini.
2. Bring in Gruden
3. Draft A.J. Green and a great right tackle + guard and some Linebackers
4. WIN!!!!!!!
Luke C - December 19, 2010
yeah, no.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
How do you figure? Sounds like a pretty damn good plan to me.
ahowie - December 19, 2010
I don’t object to the draft strategy however:
1. Why should we fire Mangini after 2 years after a team has shown improvement?
2. What guarantee is there that Gruden will want to come or that his style will work here and he will be an overall better HC than mangini?
3. Someone PLEASE give a rational reason to fire a coach after 2 years when he took a team with bottom 5 talent in the league to be competitive in every game they played, when they have one of the league’s hardest Strengths of Schedule.
4. If we are gonna get all panicky after 2 bad wins and want to fire him based on these, shouldn’t we give equal merit/blame for the 2 shocking wins?
bross09 - December 19, 2010
1. Improvement from whatever we had two years ago to the current state of affairs is not an impressive accomplishment in my view. Call me selfish, but with two years to build on I’d like to see a team that has a reasonable shot at the playoffs.
2. There are no guarantees and will never be guarantees in this business. Sometimes you make a move and hope for the best. Personally I think Gruden could potentially add a spark and be a big shot in the arm for the organization. If not Gruden, I hope Holmgren is keeping all other options on the table.
3. See #1.
4. See #1.
For me the bottom line is that the Browns offensive strategy, game plan, adjustments, clock management, and overall decision making on offense has been unsophisticated, uncreative, and often times downright atrocious.
Daboll in my opinion is gone regardless. But realistically the buck stops with Mangini. Regardless, I trust Holmgren and am certain he has his finger on the pulse of how the shots are being called on the sidelines.
I don’t see how Daboll can possibly survive. As for Mangini, whatever Holmgren decides is fine by me.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
yeah, thats quite a bit optimistic. This team did have a reasonable shot at the playoffs for a while, but had 2 bad games to knock them out. wasn’t it 2 weeks ago when we were talking about our chances at making the playoffs? I would consider us having at least somewhat of a “reasonable shot”. and that is more than most expected this year. This team has no depth when Mangini inherited it and and was near the botom in talent. they are still near the bottom on talent, but on the rise and they have more depth. If you went purely on talent, we should be ranked between 27-32 in the league. However, we are middle of the pack in both Football outsiders’ team efficiency and Point differential
How much is this a HC who is not at all an Offensive guy and how much is it our OC? other Defense oriented HCs generally don’t get blamed when they don’t have good offenses, they just Can the OC (this happened under crennel, and everyone dogged the OCs then). I personally don’t see a huge problem with clock management and other things that definitely lie with mangini.
I guess #3 was addressing the fact that I felt that a lot of people just plain don’t like Mangini. they don’t like how he supposedly carries himself on the sidelines and they have a predisposition not to like him. How many people were calling for Crennel’s head when he went 6-10 then 4-12? Not many. they wanted to give him more of a chance, but there was a general dislike of Carthon, who sucked. I think the difference is the personality. Romeo was generally a jovial guy, but this translated into “Summer Camp Romeo” where players ran around without shoes on. Mangini doesn’t come off as jovial, but this generally has led to less locker room problems and idiocy than Romeo’s attitude.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Don’t give me the schedule excuse. The Browns have just played like complete crap against the two worst teams in the AFC record wise. Save that junk.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
It erased the rest of my answer.
As for the rest of it, sometimes you have to make a big boy decision. Mangini may deserve another season, he may not. But if you have the chance to replace him with an upgrade, you do it.
For all we know, next season Gruden may be somewhere else and we will be left to hire another unproven guy. If you have a shot to hire a Super Bowl winning coach, do it.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
and the NFL plays 2 games right, because since we went 0-2 in these 2 games, we should just stop our evaluation there.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Where did I say that?
I’m sick of hearing at how hard our schedule is. Doesn’t matter if it is hard if you stub your toe against the weak spots.
The Browns have two good wins. Now they have two bad losses. Why should the wins count more?
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
I think the point is the Bengals had the hardest overall schedule and the Bills third worst (we had the second). So neither team is as bad as their record suggests.
LondonBrown - December 19, 2010
I never said the wins should count more. In fact, I said they should be equal.
the thing is, the comment of mine you were replying to had no mention of those games that we won. however, your response was pointing out we have had 2 bad losses against 2 teams that aren’t good. I was merely saying above that we have to look at every win/loss and consider that each one is 1 game, and not to focus on the good or the bad, but the whole.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Because the two wins came with Cribbs and Fujita, and the two losses came with an injured Cribbs, a healthy St Clair and without our defensive leader?
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
right. we can’t keep assuming the wins and losses came out of the same initial conditions.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
I like Fujita, but he isn’t that much of a difference maker.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Then what has made our run defense go from good to awful?
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
I would point a finger at the complete domination of our defensive line the past two weeks.
Doesn’t matter who we have at LB if they have OL in their face.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
valid point.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
DL injuries don’t help.
rufio - December 20, 2010
who’s injured? Rogers has been hurt all year, and Smith was injured during our good games IIRC.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Coleman doesn’t look right to me, but I thought someone else was hurt as well.
Call it lack of depth, then; if we are playing Schaferling and Derreck Robinson for as many snaps as we are, we’re going to be in trouble.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Schafering is pretty solid
The Licensed Pessimist - December 21, 2010
Holy shit. Raise your hand if you had Brian Schafering as the one player the Licensed Pessimist would say something positive about.
jaws. - December 21, 2010
As a pass rushing DT who plays < 2% of your snaps, sure.
rufio - December 21, 2010
In other news, I’m undefeated in my starts as an NFL QB.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 21, 2010
Ha.
StuckInPa - December 22, 2010
he is an adequate backup, but nothing special. If we have to play him as a rotational guy instead of just a depth guy, we are in trouble. If Schafering starts 9 games for us so far, we are in trouble. He is not bad, but we can definitely upgrade easily there.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
you may be right about Coleman.
As far as lack of depth goes, we had that in the games we played well in too. it isn’t a problem that developed two weeks ago.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
In the short term, you can sometimes get away with a lack of depth. however that lack of depth eventually catches up to you and I think that is what is happening.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
I am not trying to argue that we have adequate depth. But if you lose some guys that used to play heavily in your rotation or you have to reduce their roles (which is definitely the case for Rogers, and I suspect it is for Coleman), the backups have to play more and everyone gets more worn down.
We may have lacked the depth the whole time but it makes sense that our lack of depth is hurting us now, down the stretch.
Whatever the problem is, we need to find the players or the energy to fix it or we’re going to get blown out this week.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I don’t know where that last comment went but basically it would make some sense that a lack of depth would show down the stretch.
Either way, we need to do what we can to fix the problem now. Sign a guy off the street, rest up, whatever.
rufio - December 21, 2010
oops there it is.
rufio - December 21, 2010
He wore the headset, made all of the calls, and our run D has went straight down the crapper since he got hurt.
Put another way: our run defense has been good for half a season in the last decade. That was the half season Fujita was out there making adjustments and filling the gaps.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
I love Fujita, but if our entire defense is predicated on his health, or even existence then we have much bigger problems
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
…like depth.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Bingo.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
yup.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
Well the Bengals have had a lot more injuries then we have – are you saying they have depth? Because they looked pretty solid today
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
that’s because they were playing a team with very little depth.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
OK, sorry not going to argue with people who can’t help but make poor excuses for their team.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
How is that an excuse? we’re saying the team is bad.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I think his point is, you have two teams lacking depth playing each other, one was able to get the stops they needed, the other couldn’t.
Villeslgr - December 20, 2010
By all intensive purposes the Bengals should be worse.
A 3-11 record would indicate that (well, 2-11 until yesterday). And, like he said, we’ve been absolutely decimated by injuries all season. We’ve lost all of our CB depth and Jonathan Joseph has been playing injured, FS is a patchwork and Roy Williams has issues staying healthy on his own as it is (I’m amazed he’s still playing, by the way). Our secondary’s a wreck and we’ve had Tank Johnson, Fanene, Odom, and one other Linemen put on IR this season.
Yes, our defense is damn near decimated. It just helps that our starters and the future starters (DLinemen) were actually healthy, outside of the FS position.
I can’t speak for the Browns, but he’s right, our team is reaching towards the bottom of the well for depth.
Doc Scratch - December 20, 2010
“By all intensive purposes” doesn’t make any sense.
Simmsinns - December 21, 2010
The right phrase would be “for all intents and purposes”… “by all intensive purposes” is a common malapropism for this phrase which means “for all practical purposes”.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
I know. My point wasn’t that we had more injuries than you. My point was that you had better depth.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
I’m pretty sure I said we should draft a tackle/guard in this years draft and people said it was too soon….trust me boys we need help on the right side big time.
Mr Orange - December 20, 2010
I’m always in favor of taking linemen early. Even when you have five good ones (which we obviously don’t).
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
Start drafting offensive lineman. When you are done, draft defensive lineman.
When you are done with that, start over.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
rec
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
Who would you have taken at 7th overall? Davis? Does he look more worth it than Joe Haden at this point? Bulaga?
rufio - December 20, 2010
Nope, Joe Haden was the right pick.
Simmsinns - December 21, 2010
I didn’t say with the first pick (7)…I said early.
Mr Orange - December 22, 2010
Ok, then who was against that idea? I am pretty sure most people knew the right side of the line needed help and that John St. Clair was awful.
rufio - December 22, 2010
Hell I can’t remember, lol…Maybe I was think first round O-lineman… :p
Mr Orange - December 22, 2010
Exercise in futility. We got beat up and pounded all day long. They ran right at us, and we couldn’t establish the run to save our lives.
Colt is our best QB going away. He needs to mature in the pocket a bit; he took a few bad sacks. But, this might also be to blame on our WRs, who are completely hapless. Thank God Watson is running around out there.
We gave a two-win team their third win in consecutive weeks. Doesn’t especially bode well for Mangini.
Robiskie is still terrible.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
I’m new here but I have been following you guys for some time and i’m a 30 yr. fan. I think Mike is a fair man. Daboll is going to be Mangini’s choice. If he throws him under the bus, which he should, he will keep his job in this possible lockout season. The team has shown cohesiveness when our leaders weren’t injured. I fully believe Mangini will be our HC next year. Honestly, compared to what’s out there, I don’t think it’s a bad choice. Gruden isn’t coming, Cowher isn’t coming and seriously, does anyone want Fox?
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
well, welcome to the commenting realm. Good comment, I agree with all of this. there are not a ton of options out there. what this team needs is more depth and a better OC, but they are definitely on the right track.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
My first direct reply…..u da man. Thank you.
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
except for bring back dilfer
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
I liked what I saw from you until this one :p
shep615 - December 20, 2010
Sorry this was from a post a bit lower, I was sbn illiterate at that time.
489favegame stat - December 30, 2010
no problem. you obviously have a good knowledge and sound opinions on the browns.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
NO I dont want Fox and you are right Cowher is not coming to Cleveland.
champion64 - December 19, 2010
Fox, Dick Jauron, Norv Turner maybe? they are all Mangini with more years and more losses. Get a quality coach or just keep Mangini and continue to suck
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Welcome, I think Gruden is a real possibility.
Ohio boy, Holmgren protege, makes a lot of sense.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Wow, either you are really lucky or some of the salty fans gave you a pass. On DBN, you never give years as a fan. I’m guessing Brad & Special are sleeping.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
No, as a person who raises quite a big stink about this, I feel qualified to answer this. It’s perfectly fine to give years as a fan, as long as you aren’t using it to justify an opinion that has nothing to do with the past.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Right.
Chris Pokorny - December 20, 2010
Thiz-is.
Dawg Nuts - December 20, 2010
You really need to quit taking shots at me. Now.
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
This is my guess. Mangini Era is over. I think Ryan will be kept but Mangini and Daboll have no shot. I am growing tired
champion64 - December 19, 2010
Don’t you think the new coach will bring in his own staff?
palcal - December 19, 2010
I am a Mangini fan and I agree with you wholeheartedly. The sad thing, is that the most compelling argument for him to go is just a lack of a capability to take a chance to win the game. In Buffalo – no excuse for not going for the TD. With those conditions, pinning the team back there is such little risk. Today, same story. Had to go for the TD – just because your defense was being gashed by the run. It is a feel for the game that the really good coaches have, even when they are ultra conservative.
realmccoy - December 19, 2010
I agree with some of your sentiment but the notion that Mangini should have went for the TD is wrong. Down by 9 with a quarter of football left, you kick the easy field goal. If you don’t, you are basically saying you have no faith in your offense or defense.
TheDriveStillHurts - December 19, 2010
yep. I think its moot anyways because the team didn’t get in FG range again if I remember correctly. So it least its a few points closer.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Hm? We lost by two, so the field goal decision was anything but moot.
Chemo - December 20, 2010
Of course it’s moot. I mean, it just possibly wins us the game, but in bross-physics, numbers aren’t real and are just a figment of your “fake facts”, otherwise known as imagination.
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
I forgot about the last TD. I was thinking we lost by more. My bad for being stupid. Its not moot then and maybe we should have gone for it, but in that situation, its hard to pass up guaranteed points.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Respectfully disagree. You are saying you do not have confidence in your defense. You are saying you have confidence in your offense. The lack of confidence in the defense was very well deserved – they just could not stop the run. The only way we win that game is if we go for that TD. The only way. The book says you kick the FG, a Parcells or Bellicek knows the D is getting pounded and makes the call against the book.
realmccoy - December 19, 2010
Here’s my thought on that decision: If you score a TD, you only need a field goal later, so you only need to get to the opposing 30 yard line. If you kick a field goal now, you need a TD later. That means you can get ten yards now or 30 extra yards later.
I know it’s not quite as simple as that, but throw in the fact that, with a field goal, the opposing team can kick a field goal of their own and send the lead back to two scores (which is what happened), and I think going for it would definitely have been the right decision.
Chemo - December 20, 2010
If Mangini is fired, I expect Rob to end up In New York with his brother.
Remember, it was rumored that Rob try and get out of his contract to go to NY when Rex was hired.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Win, lose or draw, that would make for some entertaining football.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
I hope we can manage to keep Rob Ryan on board.
Seems to me he’s done a good job with our defense overall.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
Not going to happen. If Mangini’s gone, Ryan will walk. He wants a head coaching job, and he’s not going to get it coaching in a dysfunctional organization that fires coaches every two years.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
You don’t think he’d take the job if Holmgren offered it to him?
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
the head job? he might take that.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
I don’t think Holmgren would offer it to him.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
I think Holmgren has one person in mind. Same person as last season.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
And that person is probably Mike Holmgren. Which makes him a liar and a dick.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
precisely.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
The person I was thinking of was Gruden.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
I would drive your car into Holmgren’s office.
If there’s anything I’m certain of, it’s that another decade on the quarterback carousel is the last thing this team needs.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
I think the problem is that we have to really question if we’ve made progress at all after the last couple of games.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
We were blown out on a weekly basis for about half a season last year. we didn’t complete 50% of our passes. We have most certainly made progress.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
I’ve said that as well, however is Mangini the coach for the next decade?
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Good question, but extremely hard to resolve when we can’t even agree if he’s the coach for the next year.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
That is not a fair question to ask. Is he the coach to take us to the playoffs? that is fair. However to say a guy whould be gone because “oh, well he won’t be here in a decade” is a bit ridiculous. Even good coaches don’t stay a decade. Dungy didn’t stay a decade in Indy, Gruden didn’t stay a decade in Tampa. Heck, Brian Billick won a Super Bowl and didn’t stay a decade in Baltimore.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
We’re talkin’ about the forest, not the trees. The number of years doesn’t matter. The question at hand is whether we believe Mangini is the guy we make a long term comittment to. If we give him the kind of time Cowher had to build a winner, will he actually build a winner? Will our patience be rewarded? Is he Cowher or is he Brad Childress?
I think he will build us a winner.
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
I agree with your last bit.
However, there is also the point that its very hard to tell who is good and who is bad after 2 years. who would have thought after 2-3 years that Jeff Fisher was a good coach? Its especially hard when you are inheriting a terrible team and if you come in with a new FO, its almost like being a college coach b/c you have to completely build up a team and you can’t do that in a year.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
With H & H, looking over his shoulder, and picking up talent, Yes Eric can get us to the playoffs. Key pieces needed – 4 to 5 linemen for (1-2 starters) depth, Defensive Linemen – we need more push, and upgrades at CB and WR.
The FO needs to be on the lookout now, and prep that pen & checkbook. The free agaent market is gonna be a huge one, and then add in the draft. This next preseason barring a lockout could be one of our most important. We need to out ozzie- ozzie.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I think Colt McCoy fixed that.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
I don’t know. Gruden always seems to find a way to have a half dozen quarterbacks every year.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
To be fair, Gruden never really had a young quarterback to shape in Oakland and Tampa.
He worked with what he had. After watching that ESPN special, I think Gruden would be a wonderful HC for a young QB.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Combine Gruden’s offensive aptitude with Rob Ryan as DC and I think you have a great combo for years to come.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
If Mangini is gone, so is Ryan.
I would take Wade Phillips though.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
For DC, yes.
SpecialBrownie - December 19, 2010
I should have added that!
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Maybe not though, Gruden kept Monty Kiffin in Tampa. Though i would be happy with Phillips too, or any number of other DCs
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
I don’t think it would be Gruden’s decision, I don’t think Ryan would want to be back.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I agree with you here. he never really had a guy to work with, he mostly had veteran retreads. even then, he made some of those look pretty good for stretches.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
While this is true, I would love for us to do this if we don’t feel Colt is the guy. None of the guys Gruden had were any good.
rufio - December 20, 2010
You sure are convincing.
I’m for keeping Mangini.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
You really need to make a seperate post with you football dictionary. I really like your qoutes.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
You end QB carousels by finding good QBs.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Oh man, if that happens then I think I will have a 2nd favorite team. Those guys… I respect them a lot.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
I respect the Ryans, but hate the Jets, always will.
Simmsinns - December 20, 2010
Instant Recap: Mass Hysteria
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
Dogs and cats sleeping together.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
Daballs slapping Mangina repeatedly.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
Delete. Man, I’m really off today. I don’t function well with more than 4 hours of sleep.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
Man, I wish I had your metabolism.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
Any room for George to put his Kokinthis?
Adrock2099 - December 19, 2010
Well played.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Don’t ecourage him. xP
BrownDawg1409 - December 19, 2010
buuuuuuuh!
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
QUESTION, IS IT THE O-Line? or the receivers? Why are we so friggin inept?? You cant lose to Buffalo and Cincinnati, you just cant and hope to say you have this team ready to compete for the playoffs even next year. I wish it were not so, but this sucked.
champion64 - December 19, 2010
Protection. All we need is one RT.
rufio - December 20, 2010
All right guys, I’m sick of the crying. I thought we could win this game but didn’t expect it. You can’t blame Daboll for this one. Our lines got hammered in the pit all game.
Oh yeah, fire Daboll’s pale white ass.
Brownie's Year - December 19, 2010
We sure did. Completely owned.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
I agree on both points.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Mike said before this season you can’t fix it overnight. We lack talent teamwide but put together some great games. Keep Mangini….his gameplans against NE n NYJ and maybe New Orleans ought to at least interest free agents….
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
what’s starting over again going to do?
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
Bring back Dilfer.
Brownie's Year - December 19, 2010
LOL
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
The lol is a direct result of the Ravens winning today…..anyone but Pittsburgh.
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
I’m always happy to see the pukes lose.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
Not a thing.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
riiiight because teams never get better with new coaches.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Because switching coaches every few years has worked so well for us since expansion. The Browns are on their third coach in six years as it is. The results are reflected in their record. The Steelers, on the other hand, have had 3 coaches in my lifetime. They have six Lombardis to show for it.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
Yeah, I agree the continuity thing is important, and I think our team does at least have an identity.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
I agree with that, but look at their coaches vs. our coaches. I hate to say this, because I don’t always believe in it, but their 3 coaches are all alphas while our coaches have been one Snow White dwarf after another.
I do agree though that if you are going to keep Mangini, then keep him for a decade at least and see if he can develop into an alpha via experience.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
you don’t just give him a decade for the sake of continuity. continuity is important if you’re making progress, not just in and of itself.
as for the alphas vs. non-alphas … i mean, that’s just completely made up and irrelevant. these guys need to be able to coach football, not arm wrestle.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
Aye, and I heard that one of those coaches (which one escapes me) had like 2 wins in his first 2 seasons or something nuts like that. Everyone in Pittsburgh called for his head, but the Rooneys stayed with him and he ended up being a damn good coach. They mentioned it in the broadcast of the game today, I think.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
Chuck Noll won 1 game in his first year and 12 in his first three years as head coach. Cowher won right away, but he inherited a much better team than Noll.
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
Right. I just think that it is quite possible that Mangini could develop into a really good coach. He’s not there yet- But he gets the players to work HARD and has gotten a LOT more out of this team this year than I think anyone expected. And I think that’s really important. You gotta think that with the lack of talent we have on our team that Holmgren hasn’t exactly been looking for wins and losses to determine whether Mangini stays. In the end, I think you look to see things that can’t be taught. I think you can teach someone things like game management and play calling and things like that- But you can’t teach things like leadership, discipline, hard work, etc.
I think Mangini has those things. I’d love to see him stay and develop those things that can be taught. Then we can maybe get some Super Bowl rings!
shep615 - December 20, 2010
I’ve been on the fence regarding Mangini for some time. I like Mangini. But our offensive strategy and game planning is a mess. No rhyme or reason to it. And it seems like whatever adjustments they make coming out in the 2nd half (if any) are completely ineffective. Does this fall on Daboll’s orchestration of the offense? Doesn’t the buck have to stop with Mangini when it comes to the overall offensive strategy? I have a hard time getting past this when discussing Mangini’s future with the Browns.
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
Would it be different with each individual team? I mean, I see a team who is overwhelmingly stronger on defense than offense, which makes sense because Mangini and Ryan are both great defensive minds. Is it possible that we fail on offense because Brian Daboll is just not a good OC and Mangini doesn’t have much of a mind for strategy on offense? In that case, I think part of the responsibility is on Mangini because he hired the guy, but I think most is on Daboll.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
i’m assuming this question enters the conversation down below … but how in the hell did these great defensive minds get STEAMROLLED by both the bills and bengals in the running game the last 2 weeks? 80+ rushes for 350+ yards. unthinkable.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
Good question.
Western Reserve - December 20, 2010
A mixture of the defensive line getting whipped, Fujita missing, and our offense not putting pressure on the opposing team.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
The scheme was fine, we just couldn’t do our jobs on D.
Our D line and LBs need new personnel badly. Players under 30, preferably.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Look at how much time the D has been on the field going back to the Jets game and you’ll find your answer. Our ToP sucks.
HenryDawg - December 21, 2010
yep. Cowher was one of those guys who came in winning, partly because of the team he inherited.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
I mostly agree, but they had help from the zebras. The last 2 were cheap, and made me really question the refs integrity. I’m gonna stop due to it just pissing me off all over again. I really hate inept refs.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
i stopped reading here.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
one woman sitting behind me at the game yesterday was calling the refs “whores” that was funny
WilliamL - December 20, 2010
I hate the thought of starting over. But back to back loses to teams with ONLY two wins coming into the game is not something that I would call a glowing receommendation you have the ability to make a winner. I DONT WANT TO START OVER BUT it is one thing to get beat 28-24 or 31 -28 to a good football team, but the last two weeks were like the end of the 2008 season all over again NO OFFENSE and no chance. I am just frustrated, I honestly dont know what Holmgren is going to do.
QUESTION: How do you think Holmgren can sell this coaching staff to the organization for another year?
champion64 - December 19, 2010
Stop it. We only need a few players to be contenders.
Brownie's Year - December 19, 2010
Do you honestly think Holmgren will allow Mangini to stay?
champion64 - December 19, 2010
yes
Brownie's Year - December 19, 2010
I am listening
champion64 - December 19, 2010
Why would he want to star over?
This team is not bad missing a few parts but not that bad and if you recall at the start of the season Cincy was picked as one of the top teams in the NFL. Some years stuff does not fall in line.
This team has keep it close. Destroyed the best team in the NFL and made the Champs look like chumps. and has looked good with less talent then half the teams in the NFL.
Brownsfan4ever - December 19, 2010
I don’t want to change coaches either, but can we stop falling back on the games against New Orleans and New England?
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
thank you for saying that
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
it isn’t falling back on anything, it’s tangible evidence of improvement.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
wait…so when we point to successful games, we are “falling back on them”? Why SHOULDN’T we consider these games when we are considering games like Buffalo and Cincy where we probably should have won?
bross09 - December 19, 2010
They should and will be considered. Along with the other 14 games the Browns have and will play this year. Neither our two best wins, nor our two worst losses define the whole season. Reverting to either end of the spectrum, whether to make either a positive or negative statement about this team, not only probably isn’t a very good argument, it’s also starting to get a little tired.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
consider,
champion64’s position is: we have 2 straight losses to 2 win teams and this should be the nail on the coffin of mangini being fired.
Brownsfan points out that not only did we have 2 big wins against 2 very good geams, but we have been in pretty much every game we have played and aren’t a talented team. You are taking one part of Brownsfan’s point and acting like it is his only point.
Champ64 talked about 2 games, Brownsfan didn’t because he pointed out how we were consistently competitive against good teams. I agree that using that as the ONLY evidence to define the season isn’t good, but he Brownsfan didn’t do this.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
We had 210 yards of offense against New Orleans.
It was a nice win, but I don’t think we were really impressive, offensively at least.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
I will not deny that. that is still an impressive win from the way our D played and the fact that we beat the Saints in New Orleans.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
I’ll question Holmgren’s judgement if Mangini gets let go.
Mangini and crew have coached this team into contention of almost game this year.
It was done without a real QB and with injuries without roster depth.
Mangini is the first real coach we’ve had since the return.
Depth on the o line would win some of those close games by converting more 3rd downs with hillis up the middle.
tribe71 - December 19, 2010
I think it’s very important to note that after 12 games we still had a legitimate shot at the playoffs.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Exactly. Holmgren will look at the entire body of work, not panic after the past two weeks.
rufio - December 20, 2010
REC
J. W. - December 20, 2010
He doesn’t have to. He is the organization in that capacity. The coaching staff had to sell themselves to him.
He’ll be fair with them, and measure the season in it’s totality after all the games are finished, but right now to me there is very little chance of Mangini returning (nor should there be).
johnnyphoenix - December 19, 2010
We need some more heavyweights on the offensive side of the thinktank. I don’t know if that means Mangini has to go- I think he has the team pointed the right way- but I can’t see McCoy or any other developing under just Daboll.
I’m not sure that Gruden & Daboll would be the answer; I’m sure a new offesnive HC would bring his own OC too.
LondonBrown - December 19, 2010
lol….no. Gru is his own OC.
johnnyphoenix - December 19, 2010
I would love to have a chance to grab Schotty away from NY. I liked his old man and the kid is a good offensive mind.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I think I remember reading that Mangini wanted him when he came here, but the jets wouldn’t give him permission. Take that with a grain of salt though.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I remember that too. Though I’m glad he’s not here considering how poor the Jets offense has been this season. They have oo much talent to be this inconsistent.
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
too, that is.
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
Actually I think it was Bill Callahan, their O Line coach. And the Jets wouldn’t let us have him either.
HenryDawg - December 21, 2010
i think this is a common misconception. he’s not a whole lot better than daboll … just has a whole lot more weapons.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
Not to mention the Jets have been bad on offense this season.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
As Golan mentions I see.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
I thought Holmgren brought in (whatshisname – mental block) ostensibly to provide guidance to Daboll. What happened to him?
JustBob - December 22, 2010
Haskell…and good question.
Kimble_79 - December 22, 2010
this was nothing anywhere near the end of the 2008 season. Not the same ballpark, not even the same game. please stop.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
Sell to what organization? He’s the guy making all of the decisions now.
BrownDawg1409 - December 19, 2010
What I mean is do you think the organization (coaching staff kept), PLAYERS and FANS (the fans matter) wil lbuy into Mangini leading this team again. I like Mangini, I wanted him to stay, but loses like the last two are hard to swallow and happen way too often with this organization. Do you think it is a simple as adding a new Offensive Coordinator? and some players? Do you think Holmgren will be that patient?
champion64 - December 19, 2010
name me ANY other losses this year (since we have new people running the organization who shouldn’t get blamed for past mistakes) where we lost to a team that has anywhere near the record we do. Tampa and KC, one is a playoff team and the other is in the hunt at 8-6. Jacksonville? they are in the hunt, tied for the division lead, but don’t hold the tiebreaker. Its not like we have lost games to crap teams. we have been competitive in every game and lost to a couple teams we probably should have beaten…but we also won handily against 2 teams that should have beat us. So if you want to criticize for these last 2 losses, the wins against the Saints and Pats deserve at LEAST as much praise as criticism you are doling out.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
REC
J. W. - December 20, 2010
No they don’t. not when you’re making football decisions.
I don’t know that we need a new coordinator. yes. yes.notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
None of the coaches would be retained. Anyone calling for Mangini’s head needs to realize that Ryan is gone if he’s passed over. Seeley would have his choice of jobs in the league and have zero reason to stay.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
What would you think about handing the reigns to Ryan?
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
Not a big fan of the idea.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
Really? Why?
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I’m not golan, but I would be opposed to the idea because he’s another gamble at head coach. He’s a really solid DC, but that doesn’t always translate to solid head coach. I think we’ve got a solid head coach that can continue to improve- I think our team is at the point that you just don’t let him go unless you definitely have a better replacement coming in.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
He doesn’t have to.
You don’t want to play here and be a part of turning things around? Get out, and good luck getting signed with someone else.
You don’t want to root for us anymore? Find another team.
Holmgren is going to do what he needs to do to turn this in to a winning franchise. If that means getting rid of a few malcontents and fair weather fans, who cares.
rufio - December 20, 2010
If holmgren isn’t tht patient then he is no better at rebuilding than anyone else.
JustBob - December 22, 2010
buffalo took the steelers into OT and lost 3 in a row (2 of which were in OT) to teams that if the season ended right now, would be in the playoffs. Buffalo is similar to us. they have a very hard schedule and are better than their record. I still think we are a bit farther along than them, but buffalo is also a fairly difficult place to play.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Buffalo can beat anybody. Buffalo is also in the bottom 25% of the league.
These things also describe the Browns.
dgcambridge - December 19, 2010
yes. Definitely bottom 25% of talent. Both us and the Bills are rebuilding, but IMO both us and the Bills are on the right track.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Daboll gone? what do you think?
champion64 - December 19, 2010
I think Mangini is going to have to make the choice, either save his own ass or get rid of Daboll. I also think Haskell will be installed.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Why must we rationalize the loss to Buffalo? It’s okay to say we just stunk that day, make mistakes and got beat. The Buffalo Bills are not a good football team.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
I won’t disagree, but that doesn’t mean the team is as bad as it has always been before.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
They are not a good football team, but they are not a BAD football team. I never said they are a good football team. They are better than their record indicates, and they are a team thats below average, but competitive with a schedule as tougher as ours. If people here are going to use SoS to point to how we have been competitive against good teams, why can’t we use it to explain Buffalo? We should have won that game, but buffalo isn’t a pushover and away games at Ralph Wilson stadium are always hard.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
If Buffalo isn’t one of the bad teams, who in the NFL qualifies as bad?
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
Dallas, Denver, Arizona, Carolina, and Seattle (yes, I know they are 6-7, but the only win I would consider at all “impressive” was beating chicago in chicago by a FG.
Since their Bye week, when their offense finally established an identity, they are 3-5 with a -6 point differential and took 3 games into OT. and even factoring Us, Minny and Cincy, the teams they have played have a record over .500. i would say any team that can go 3-5 with a -6 point differential over any extended period of time (in this case, half a season) is better than “bad”.
I forgot to check how they did today and they beat Miami. So that means in 9 games, they went 4-5 with a point differential of -3. They weren’t good early in the season and got blown out in 3 straight games against good teams, but they have definitely been better than a 4-10 record would indicate.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Dallas is better than we are.
TheDriveStillHurts - December 19, 2010
now they are, they weren’t with Phillips.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
I disagree. If we are talking about right now, putting an emphasis on how a team has played lately, yes. If we are talking about a full season, than definitely not.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Isn’t that how you just framed this debate, talking about the Bills?
Chemo - December 20, 2010
not really…unless you use the term “lately” very loosely. With the Cowboys, it is the last 4 or 5 games, because it is since they got rid of Wade Phillips. When I was talking about the bills, I am talking about the last 9-10 weeks. thats about twice the amount of time.
I emphasized that it wasn’t just that the “bills were playing better lately” but had been competitive for over 70% of the season so far. the Jason Garret period hasn’t even gotten close to half of the season. you could say then by just throwing around the word that the Patriots have been winning “lately”. If you try to use that word to describe most of the bills season, the word loses its meaning.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
dallas have the same record (5-9) as we do, and aren’t coming off of 2 straight losses to 2-win (at the time) teams. they are WAY better than the browns.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
so you are saying that they are currently a better team but that is not saying they have consistently played better football than the browns.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
ok … they have consistently played better football than the browns.
i’m not sure what it means to say that they would beat the turd out of us NOW (i think we can all agree on that), but maybe haven’t been better than us for each of the 13 weeks of the season.
today, the cowboys are way better than the browns. what else is there to say?
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
I disagree that they have consistently played better, but I do agree right now, the way each team is playing there is a very good chance they would beat us.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
I still consider Buffalo among the bad teams.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
they’re going to draft in the top-10. you are on very safe ground here.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
This is a good question. Will he even try?
1. Holmgren has said only wins and losses matter. This is a 5 win team so far coming off another 5 win season. You can say they looked better, played harder, beat tougher teams, lost to weaker teams… doesn’t matter. They have not improved in the most important statistic in the NFL.
2. We could have said they improved in the same way at the end of last season. The team looked better when they won out those last few games. But were they really better? Are they really better this year when we have the same record as last year? Sure we beat two great teams but then lost to two crappy teams. I think it is completely possible that we win 5 games again next year. That would be a huge waste of a year in my opinion when we could be moving forward with a potentially better coach.
3. IF Holmgren thinks he can improve the head coaching position or any other position for that matter, I think he will. What’s more, I think he should. We have zero time to spend on a coach that can’t get it done. I also think that having Holmgren in charge if we get a new coach will be less of a disruption to the team as a whole than other coaching changes we have experienced here in Cleveland.
4. The other possibility is that Holmgren himself takes the coaching reigns. I’m not a huge fan of this because I think it would be better for the team in the long run to have a strong president managing the overall direction. I think there is a real danger of burnout with Holmgren based on some of his recent comments. The past has shown us that, at least for the Browns, one guy doing everything doesn’t seem to work that well.
The big IF here is IF he thinks he can improve the position with a different guy and that depends on who he has on his list currently and who is willing to come here. Right now, I’m with Holmgren all the way on this but I’m leaning towards replacing Mangini. I think he has peaked in Cleveland and 5 wins a year isn’t going to cut it.
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
1. Holmgren has not said only wins and losses matter. He has said they matter, but not to the exclusion of everything else.
2. Yes, they are really better. We won games in which we completed 2 passes last year. Even at the end of last year it was clear that gameplan wouldn’t work week to week. we were extremely lucky to have the success we had at the end of last year. We were also blown out many times last season, and we’ve only been blown out once this year. even that game was close heading into the fourth quarter.
3. I agree here. If there is an upgrade available, you take it. I don’t think there is an upgrade available.
4. I am against this as well.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I respect what you’ve said and I understand the sentiment. I’m not as positive about the losses and even some of the wins as you are. I see the Panther’s game as a gift to us. Some of the other wins and close games were caused by a large number of mistakes and penalties at key times by the other team. And how did we lose a game in which we intercepted the ball 6 times? How could that be? I just don’t feel that the team as a whole has made a huge amount of progress given the fact that there have been some significant roster improvements.
I want to give more credit because of the Patriots and Saints games but given the rest of the season of mediocrity and downright poor play I see these as anomalies in an otherwise failed season.
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
well first of all, you can force a team to make mistakes, like pressuring Brees and intercepting him.
Second of all, you can also argue that a few less mistakes made by the browns, and they could be close to .500
JD+Daboll
Or could it be that the last couple games were the anomaly? How about neither are an anomaly and we should take both sets of games at face value.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
I’d agree with you bross on the last two losses being the anomaly if we were at 9 and 5 rather than 5 and 9. You can’t take the other 7 losses and say “those were pretty good games besides the fact that we lost”. A loss is a loss and I see little positive to take away from them. Note I said “little positive” not nothing positive. I just think the character of the team is set by the balance of the games most of which, this year, have been poor showings.
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
i realize you go onto qualify this statement a bit, but i think we have to dose this sentiment w/ some reality. of course moral victories mean pretty much nothing … but this team is not a title contender. it is not a playoff contender. hell, it’s not even a .500 record contender at this point.
progress and competitiveness and close losses DO mean something. they absolutely do. they reflect the positive evolution of the organization. that’s what we’ve got to go on at this stage, given that we have no real shot at winning meaningful football games.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
I totally disagree with you.
If I told you in the preseason (you have to forget everything you have witnessed this year; the emergence of hillis, mccoy, ward, and haden) that this team would take the New York Jets into the last couple minutes of OT, would you seriously not see any positive from that?
If I told you in the preseason that we would lose by only 1 score on the road against baltimore, would you see any positives in that?
How about losses to 3 teams by an average of 5 points, and the teams are on pace to average (combined) over 11-5 this season, would you see positives there?
I don’t see how you can say this team has had a lot of poor showing when there are several games where this team did better than most “experts” expected. This team is pretty good ATS and they also have done much better than the projected scores of many in the media.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Yeah there are some good take-aways… like only 5 rushing touchdowns against the Browns this season but these statistics and others like punting average are baby steps. I agree that they indicate progress but I’m still thinking that this may be the Mangini summit.
I also will concede your reference to the draft which I give the organization an A+. But I really can’t give a lot of credit to Mangini on that one.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
We definitely can’t give a ton of credit for the draft to mangini.
I do see more positives than just the 5 rushing TDs and punting average. This team is top 10 in points allowed, top 10 in turnover differential, and top 10 in takeaways, and middle of the pack in point differential. In all of these areas, we have shown vast improvement (considering that all but points allowed, we were bottom 5 in the NFL and points allowed, we were still only 21st).
If I dug deeper I could see more positives, but these are just more I see on the surface. We definitely need work on offense, but we are competitive every game because we don’t let the other team score, limit mistakes, and win the turnover battle
bross09 - December 21, 2010
Why not? Wasn’t Ward specifically mentioned as a guy the coaches liked? We have to credit all of the coaches, Heckert, and Holmgren for the draft; it’s a team effort.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I didn’t know the coaches specifically liked Ward.
I also didn’t say that we shouldn’t give any credit, because I knew it was a team effort andMangini would have input. I guess I figured the guy getting the bulk of the credit should go to the current GM who has 20 years of Front Office experience.
OT: I didn’t realize Tom Heckert had a dad involved in FB (also named Tom).
bross09 - December 22, 2010
Heckert should get much of the credit, for sure. Still, like Holmgren says, every decision is a “Cleveland Browns decision.”
rufio - December 22, 2010
Heckert Sr. worked for the Browns for a time. Heckert Jr. served drinks in the luxury boxes at the same time Mangini was a ballboy for the team.
As far as Mangini liking Ward goes, just after the draft he called Ward a Lawyer Milloy clone. It seemed as if Mangini was super pleased that we go him.
golanbatrac - December 22, 2010
Like I said, I didn’t hear this praise from mangini about Ward. I did find out Heckert Sr. worked for the browns.
To Rufio (I am too lazy to make another comment): Yes all the decisions are cleveland browns decisions and I understand that, and that is why I didn’t completely dismiss Mangini’s input. I guess it has kinda gotten to the point where we are arguing semantics.
bross09 - December 22, 2010
I didn’t think we were arguing at all.
rufio - December 22, 2010
I know. Any sort of back and forth I seem to label generically with the word “argue”.
bross09 - December 23, 2010
I’d be inclined to think so, too.
Western Reserve - December 22, 2010
Not to be glib, but then let’s take them all away. Now we’re a 3 and 7 team without much of a highlight reel. Not a pretty picture.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
I understand your feelings on this as well. I just see things a little differently. As far as winning because other teams make mistakes, that’s the game plan. We play mistake free and take advantage of the other team’s mistakes, that is a core part of Eric Mangini’s football philosophy. Losing a game where we intercept the ball six times is outrageous, but I see progress in the fact that we intercepted the ball six times.
I see this team’s problem as a synergy problem. we have trouble getting all phases of the game clicking at the same time, but from one game to another we do a lot well, just not always the same stuff. I see this as the “learning to win consistently” that Mangini talks about a lot.
I think based on what we’ve seen this season and last that this coaching staff is capable of taking this team to the playoffs, but I have no more proof of my position than you do of yours.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Well put. We are looking at basically the same data set and coming to opposite conclusions by emphasizing pluses or minuses. But looking at Mangini’s total body of work (here and with the Jets) I have a hard time imagining the Browns winning a Superbowl under his philosophy and coaching style… but you are correct in your last statement… there is no proof of this from our vantage in time and space. We may know in a few years and we might know if we were closer to the team (like a player or assistant coach).
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
your last sentence is the frustrating part of being a fan. We won’t know anything for a few years, and we’ll never be close enough to the team to know now.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
how many patriots fans do you think said the same thing after belichick went 5-11 in his first year in NE? let me be clear, i’m not saying that mangini = belichick … simply, “patience, grasshopper”
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
also add in his somewhat rocky stay in cleveland where he had about as much succes as mangini did in NY
bross09 - December 21, 2010
that was meant to be part of the point. didn’t say it explicitly, thanks for completing the thought.
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
no problem. I wasn’t sure if it was implied, but if not it needed to be mentioned.
bross09 - December 22, 2010
We have made a heck of a lot of progress. We have at least learned how to compete, and are either learning how to win or how to win consistently.
It won’t show in the W-L column, but we are making progress.
rufio - December 20, 2010
I believe you are quoting Mangini above or at least paraphrasing what I’ve heard him say before. It is definitely one of his best statements and a good summary of how he intends to proceed. One thing I do like about Mangini is that you do get more meat in post-game and other interviews (as long as you are not talking about injuries). The Crennel news conferences used to make me crazy.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
I think he may be quoting Paterno there but in any case it’s a football cliché, and for good reason.
I don’t care about press conferences, I want a good team built for the long-term.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Well considered as usual, Brownsyup.
This sounds a bit too much like an itchy trigger finger to me, and that’s what has given us a revolving door at the position before. Ultimately though, you just have to trust Holmgren’s judgment on whether Mangini has reached his effective ceiling with us or not. If it were my call I’d wait until the end of the year, but would be leaning toward giving him one more draft \ season with a new OC to convince me. Show me another game like the last two though, and maybe not.
Oh, and put me down for another “No” to Holmgren as coach. We really need the stability he’ll hopefully bring right where he is now.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
Thanks for the props.
I feel much the same about the revolving door and I think it has been a great weakness in the organization. At the same time I’ve been for each change at head coach at the time as they seemed obviously like the weakest link. I too defer to Holmgren’s expertise on this one. My lean is more away from Mangini if Holmgren has what he thinks is a better option. I won’t cry if Mangini is looking for another new home at the end of the season. I also think some other factors will greatly figure into this decsion:
1. Mangini’s commitment to Daboll. If he won’t let go, he will be let go.
2. Holmgren’s desire to coach again. I hope this isn’t a big factor… kind of a fear of mine that may cause Holmgren to make a questionable decision. I think of it as the worst long-term decision for the organization as a whole.
3. The feelings of other coaches on the team if Holmgren is thinking of someone with “less experience” than they have. This can be called the “assistant coach ego factor”. Heck, they may even have issues with a more experienced coach being brought into the organization as head coach.
I think that this is a very tough decision made somewhat easier by the last two losses IF Holmgren is thinking of going in a different direction. I don’t think people would hold him too accountable this time if he lets Mangini go like they would have at the first of the season.
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
One more thing for you folks as I think there are some excellent opinions on this board. I’ve heard some coaching names thrown around on the board (Gruden, Cowher, etc.) but I was wondering what folks thought about these as potential Browns head coaching candidates:
Jeff Fisher (he may be on the outs in Tennessee)
John Fox
Jason Garrett (if not retained by the Cowboys)
Also as OC:
Chris Peterson (head coach at Boise State… maybe even a new head coach… but I think the assistant coach ego factor would be a huge problem here)
Mike Leach (maybe some of our players could use some downtime in a trainer’s closet… seriously, the guys seems to be creative on offense)
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
Mike LeachNo way no how.
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
1. Jason Garrett will be retained by the Cowboys. I will be utterly shocked if he isn’t.
2. Jeff Fisher will probably be in Tennessee next year too. Plus, if we bring Fisher in, we have to consider the fact that he comes from the Defensive side of coaching and would likely put in a new defensive system, one the team would be ill equipped to play based on talent. Even if he tries a more gradual marriage to his system (like play the 3-4 for a year or two until we get the right personnel), we still have to change draft strategy and rebuild the D in certain positions.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
oh, and forgot to mention I would not hire any of those other guys.
Unless Cowher wants to coach here, this is about the best most people would be able to think of, and none of these guys (that will come here) would be an immediate upgrade
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Fisher – Yes
Fox – A big fat NO; Why bring in another loser,
Garrett – No
As for OC, I just have no idea.
SBP - December 20, 2010
I’m thinking the same thing about Fox. It would be difficult to justify him as an improvement.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
i’m in for fisher, and i like the idea of garrett, but i think this falls under the “must be a clear upgrade” exception. i just can’t imagine the argument that garrett is a significant improvement for the team over mangini.
as for the OC … there’s no chance peterson would leave boise for an assistant job in the nfl, and i’ll pretend you didn’t mention mike leach. i do like the idea of gil haskell calling some plays, to bring up a different name.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
yep. I like Gil Haskell. the fact that he was a protege signal-caller of Holmgren makes me interested. Plus, he is already connected with the team.
Honestly, the whole haskell thing is starting to make a lot of sense. Holmgren wasn’t sure about the playcalling last year so he brought in haskell to get acquainted with the franchise and to help out daboll. I believe that this year daboll was kind of on probabation; mangini might have been too. However, daboll has clearly been a much bigger problem and there is a clearer significant upgrade. I believe Haskell was brought in to become the OC if Daboll failed, and this is what I see playing out.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
This makes a lot of sense actually.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
I like the idea too.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 21, 2010
I know. Ever since I remembered about Haskell and thought about him for OC, it all just clicked.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
HC:
No
No way
Maybe
OC:
meh
No, his offense isn’t complex enough for the NFL.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Fisher for HC? Really? Fisher has had far more talented teams than we’ve had, yet he’s led those teams to five consecutive losses five times in the last seven years. I don’t think that the answer to our inconsistency this season is to bring in a coach who has lost his team as often as Fisher has.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
My answer for Fisher was “no.”
He allows too much dirtiness to develop, and I think he’s overrated by a lot of people.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Oops. I thought HC was your first answer. Missed the colon.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
1. I totally agree. I am very vocal about keeping mangini, but I think it will come down to him or Daboll.
2. I hope that doesn’t happen. I really like holmgren, but I feel right now I want to see him be a big picture guy in the FO
bross09 - December 20, 2010
This is false.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Well he said this…
"We’re an improved, better team," Holmgren said. "But, the bottom line is about wins."
So your assertion about my assertion being false is false. He does not want an improved team. He wants a team that wins.
But to be fair, he has said this also with particular reference to retaining Mangini:
"He’ll be evaluated at the end of the season. There’s more to it than wins and losses. It’s too premature at this point."
But that is with particular reference to retaining Mangini… not the team as a whole.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
Wrong. Even if the bottom line is W-L, that isn’t the only thing that matters, hence:
The bottom line is about wins, but you don’t just magically get to wins. An improved team will win games, and it might not be Mangini who is the weakest link in the chain. Holmgren will pour over everything and ask if another coach would take this same team and do a better job, be a better person for this job long-term.
He could very easily come to the conclusion that Mangini did a very good job with the lack of talent on the team, that the talent was the weak link in the W-L column.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Officially….no comment. Unofficially…..organizational spin. After the Jets win there really is no reason to win another game. I have to ask, beyond Holmgren there really is only Lerner. The official response is always win. The only game we really try to win is Pittsburgh. Yes Mangini stays….
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
I meant Lerner?
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
4th and 8
Anybody have any ideas what was going besides a Chinese fire drill to end the half? I’m wondering why not go for the field goal to tie.
WilliamL - December 19, 2010
it would be around a 50 yd FG, and dawson is shaky on those. also, there was some really strong winds or something like that, since i don’t think i saw a kickoff reach the endzone all game.
davus - December 19, 2010
not to rehash the jags game, but making 50 yd FGs is Phil’s job. they pay him to make kicks. if mangini doesn’t have the confidence that phil can make a 50 yarder, then he better be looking for a new kicker too.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
Agree, kick it.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
I think they should have tried to kick it, but something was going on today. Cinci also went for a fourth and long in field goal range early in the game. neither kicker seemed to get anything behind the ball.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Well, it was cold. Wind was only supposed to be 6mph. But Phil’s been around the block, thought he should have been given a shot. Still, fair point.
Western Reserve - December 19, 2010
REC
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I don’t think you can expect any kicker to be automatic on 50 yarders in weather. Dawson has been awesome and getting better almost every year. You keep him any day of the week. Have you seen some of the kicking fiascos other teams have been in?
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
no one said automatic. but if you can’t trust your kicker to send him out to try a 50 yarder in relatively calm conditions, there is a problem. it was worth a shot, and going on score alone would have won the game for us. I know that’s over simplifying it, but you get my point.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
Concur.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
I agree, but I blame Mangini for this, not Dawson
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
why? how has dawson done from over 50 this season?
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
trust issue – even if he misses its still the right call
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
so if your kicker hadn’t made a 50 yarder all season, and wasn’t able to do it in warm-ups, you would still trot him out there?
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Well first of all, we all know Dawson can make 50 yarders in weather right? Because he has, several times. I don’t know that he didn’t in practice – do you know that for sure or are you just assuming?
Given only what i know, and the situation, I would trot him on out there to try.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
like I said earlier, I would too. I’m just saying there is a valid reason not to.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
If he had gone and tried and missed…same result. If he had gone out and made it…we end the half with a tie and a little momentum coming out in the 2nd half…that’s my point on this matter.
WilliamL - December 20, 2010
if he had tried it and missed the bengals were in position to run a couple of plays and score again.
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
But wasn’t there only 16 seconds left?
Western Reserve - December 20, 2010
but if we go for it on fourth and make it we can still score a TD.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
there’s probably a little blame for both of them.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
All depends on context. If you are asking him to kick into 100mph winds, you’re not doing your job as coach.
rufio - December 20, 2010
I won’t disagree, but that wasn’t the case this week. 3 points would have made all the difference (possibly).
Dawg Nuts - December 21, 2010
I thought the kick distances were more a result of temperature than wind.
JustBob - December 22, 2010
This was a moral victory. The Bengals are better than their record indicated. Cribbs’s foot isn’t 100%. Kosar’s knee is still sore. Groza can’t be expected to make that FG in the wind. Bill Willis was held all day.
elsandito - December 19, 2010
Hah, and ouch.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
I would like the game in “Hot Tub Time Machine” to be for real. That is all…………….
J. W. - December 20, 2010
Don’ forget Clay’s drop in the end zone.
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
Sorry, that was actually caught sealing the Brown’s win over the Bills. Im still missing the reply button
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
SAFETY
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
I’m sorry, I know this isn’t the Steelers game thread.
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
Good to see McCoy play well.
I am not on the fire Mangini bus, however Daboll will and should be gone.
Strengthen the right side of the OL, and get a stud on the DL. I don’t care if it is tackle or end.
Team is not far off. Just beat Baltimore next week.
Grockcubs - December 19, 2010
I completely agree with you. I like mangini, but his confidence in Daboll is baffling.
We could use a really awesome wide receiver and a back-up running back too. (hardesty doesn’t count yet)
the_fox_and_the_browns - December 19, 2010
I worry Hardesty doesn’t count at all and does Hillis have a cure for fumble-itis? I love his production, I was at the NE game for the 34 yarder that sealed it, but the fumbles have been increasing.
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
Well at least the Steelers lost!
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Still not a Steelers thread but…………..YEAHHHH!
489favegame stat - December 19, 2010
Completely off topic – but do any of you collect sports memorabilia?
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
I do on a pretty small level.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Same.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
I just threw all of mine away about a month ago, so, yeah, I used to.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
We all love Hillis, but maybe it’s time to admit that we can’t just line up and run the ball straight down people’s throats. Very few run games are that good, so its no shame that ours certainly isn’t. I know, I know, our receivers are awful, but pretending we can consistently score by simply pounding Hillis isn’t the answer.
We need to take chances in the passing game, we need to mix in deception. If this coaching staff doesn’t realize that, and apparently they haven’t, hopefully Holgrem has.
dgcambridge - December 19, 2010
Well the Bengals did that to us, so did the Bills. We can run right down people’s throats but, and I’ve been saying this since week 1, this coaching staff does not have the guts to stick with the running game long enough to see it work.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Well, we lost the ToP battle today badly and were behind for a long time, so to criticize for only running it 14 times isn’t a very fair example. we ran it 25 times in buffalo in a game we were losing and lost the ToP badly. The only times I have ever seen us “abandon the run” before we can let it work are games where we are down by at least 2 scores well into the 2nd half…but in that situation, pretty much every team abandons the run.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Well maybe if we ran it more, we actually wouldn’t lose ToP so badly. More to the point, the passing game was decent today, but we never really established a dominant running game the way Cinci did. In fact, in most of our losses, we seem to want to force some pass/run balance even when we’re running all over them – just run all over them till they stop it.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
you can’t solve ToP by just running it more. if you are losing ToP, that means your D isn’t getting off the field, and that was more of the problem today. In fact, if you take away from the throws colt made when we were down by 2 scores 4 minutes left in the fourth quarter, and the drive where we got the ball back in a 2 minute warning type of situations (obvious passing situations), we actually ran it more.
this is just not true. Since week 2 (when he became the full time RB), Peyton hillis averages 19 rushes in Losses and over 23 rushes in wins. many of our losses are in fact games like Atlanta or Pittsburgh where we lost, hillis was having no success. Hillis also averages 4.7 ypc in wins as opposed to less than 4.3 in losses. This team goes as far as hillis goes at this point, because we do not have enough passing threats to win consistently when hillis gets shut down.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
The right side of the OL needs upgraded to run (or pass for that matter) more. I guarantee this is at the top of Heckert’s list of “to-do’s”
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
Yeah, Hillis only has 1500 yards from scrimmage on the season. We should run him some more. Use him up in one year.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
That’s not “guts”, that’s stupidity.
rufio - December 20, 2010
I’ll just quickly go over the main things that prove this wrong:
1. We ran more against the Bills than we passed. that seems like sticking to the run to me.
2. We won most of our games this year running the ball, so obviously they stuck with the run long enough to see it work.
3. This is the biggest one. At the end of last season we won four games by almost exclusively running the ball.
This coaching staff has proved they have the “guts” to stick with the run. In fact, I think they’re being too stubborn about running the ball. Colt’s YPA was great, we should have been throwing more.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
but apparently we’re very adept at lining up and having the ball run straight down our throat…
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
We used to be able to line up and run down people’s throats. Hillis may have lost half a step at this point of the year and teams watch film.
Western Reserve - December 20, 2010
Exactly…load the box and make our WR’s beat them. Between poor WR play and QB inconsistencies this is why we are losing. The secret recipe to stop us has been shared by grandma
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
I don’t think it’s even necessarily poor WR and QB play. Colt had a 9.6 YPA yesterday. This may sound funny, but we should have thrown more. Our offense was bad because we were too stubborn about the run. We passed a little, but not enough to make the other team back off.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
You win!
rufio - December 20, 2010
hooray!
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
If you look at the ratio of Run/Pass, its not like we could run that much less. I agree that the passing game should have been key, but we didn’t have the ball for enough time, which is part of why we passed so little.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
If we were averaging 9.6 YPA and passing every down, we’d have the ball for a long, long time.
Or we’d score.
rufio - December 21, 2010
even then, your D has to get off the field.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
I think I’ve said it about 3 times prior to this in reference to this game: if you can’t stop the run, you can’t win.
That doesn’t change the fact that when you are killing it through the air like we were—especially with no turnovers—you should be scoring TDs.
Of course, it didn’t help that we couldn’t block Dunlap.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I agree with all of that.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
And I’d say when we do run to run more effectively, but Hillis still managed 4.2 yards/carry.
Western Reserve - December 21, 2010
Purely based on our YPP averages, we should have been killing it on offense.
Penalties and sacks hurt us pretty bad. And the fact that the D couldn’t get the ball back.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I’m not talking about yesterday…I’m talking the poor play over the last few weeks.
Kimble_79 - December 21, 2010
Meaning…different QB’s, no threat at WR, ect.. The only threats we have are Watson and Hillis. I’m not even including the poor defensive effort given lately. I’m just talking offense.
Kimble_79 - December 21, 2010
I agree with you on every game except yesterday.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
Right, sorry for any confusion
Kimble_79 - December 21, 2010
This is true.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Their D was selling out to stop this all game. Colt was 9.6 YPA, we should have thrown more.
rufio - December 20, 2010
I don’t want to start over but I’m honestly done with this coaching staff. There’s no argument for Daboll, he’s just bad and I think everyone agrees he will be gone. I’m sick of Mangini, too, honestly. His in-game management is questionable at best. The offensive gameplans clearly aren’t working out. We are in desperate need of a strong OC and I question whether that guy can coexist with Mangini. He has shown that he can’t handle the vast array of personalities involved with this league. Sorry, but it’s pretty common for the extremely talented players in the league to have big egos and big personalities, you have to earn their respect the right way. He’s gutless and I don’t think he has what it takes to be a successful head coach in this league. I’m just ready for Holmgren to come in and make the changes he sees fit. And changes will be made.
ahowie - December 19, 2010
Do we know how much involvement Mangini has in the offensive gameplan or adjustments? He played D in college and has been a Defensive coach pretty much his whole career. We don’t know how much of those in-game adjustments are his fault or Dabolls.
Total speculation. I would say Shottenheimer is a pretty strong OC.
Huh? he can’t handle HC/GM but who can. “big ego” was the only problem with BE. GET REAL. BE sucked on the field, missed meetings, & caused distractions. Matt Roth has a larger ego, has he lost any Playing Time? saying BE had a “big ego and big personality” is like saying Roethlisberger “is rude around women”. No reason to believe they haven’t bought into Mangini
How about some actual reasons besides speculation and “a feeling”
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Dude, if adults can detect his suckiness though the TV how do you think pro football players take it in person?
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
what is “detecting suckiness through the TV”. That is the most speculative and subjective statement so far on this thread.
I am actually getting a little bit annoyed at you just saying “oh he sucks”, “he looks like he sucks”. just going around saying “he sucks, she sucks” without saying anything substantial is what people do on cleveland.com and you have devolved to almost being a cleveland.com poster.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
I make a lot of specific points when it comes to in game decisions, play-calling and situational events. When looking at big picture factors, such as motivation, there isn’t much any of us can go on beyond intuition, life experience and feeling. You don’t get that and that’s fine, but someday you’re going to realize that successful organizations understand that leadership is an innate talent that can’t always be measured in metrics (though in this case, I would point to wins/losses and in the last two games, the fact that the players looked completely unmotivated). I won’t lie to you, I have hated the Mangini hiring since day 1 and have prayed he would prove me wrong. But the fact is that he is a very weak leader and despite the fact that he’s cleared out the rubbish, it doesn’t mean he can motivate players to play their best over a longer period of time beyond a couple of games. BTW, this is a blog, and as such, subjective opinions are part of the package. Quoting stats is boring. I can look up my own stats very easily also.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
I get that. stop making assumptions that I don’t get stuff. Just because people don’t see it your way, doesn’t mean they cannot comprehend the situation. get off your damn high horse.
And there ARE other ways. how about consider that a team that only has a handful of players that would start on a playoff team (and only a few others that would be significant reserves) is 17th in point differential and has been competitive in every single game they have played, considering they have played most of the best teams in the AFC and some of the best NFC teams too. That is something that can be credited to motivation and players buying in.
yes, the argument that only wins/losses matter when evaluating a coach…especially the last 2 losses. how about the way the team PLAYS in those wins/losses. in an evaulation going forward, this is much more important.
well, there is no way to prove that mangini is a weak leader except with your questinoable intuition which comes from a source (yourself) that has admitted bias against the subject. I am sorry if I don’t take your intutition that seriously.
there is a difference between subjective opinions and cleveland.com. today, your comments have resorted to almost a cleveland.com level at times and someone who has been here a while I would hope would bring something more intelligent to the conversation than saying “he sucks because I see it in his face” (and that is probably the least “cleveland.com-esque” thing I have seen of yours.
Stats may be boring, but they also are what actually happened, not what you see happened. As you said above, to you it “seemed like the reasons we lost were that we abandoned the run when it was working” when the stats couldn’t be further from the truth.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Well I do have a big horse, but that’s a different story. Beyond cleveland.com, there are plenty of other people who have questioned Mangini’s leadership ability. He has made a lot of highly questionable decisions and there have been a lot of rumors about things like blacklisting Seneca about something he said to the press- this is the sort of stuff that loses players.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
what are some of the highly questionable leadership decisions?
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Throwing rookies on a bus for 11 hours, some issue about a water bottle, not playing Seneca for a comment he made (that’s a rumor, but not addressed, can be like poison), rumors of punishing other players for minor infractions like not saying to the press what he thinks they should say.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Two rumors out of three.
I think Mangini has made some strides in the right direction this year. Holmgren will evaluate this at the end of the year. Thankfully Holmgren knows what the hell he is doing and I trust that he will make the right call.
Grockcubs - December 19, 2010
I think he’s made strides as well, maybe not enough though
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
He admitted the bus ride was a mistake. We’ve been over the water bottle thing here before, and it is unclear whether it was a repeat offense or not. Also, if you take something and don’t pay for it, that’s stealing.
The other two are rumors. Sorry, but I don’t buy message board rumors. As far as him not addressing the rumors, people shouldn’t have to address every stupid thing that is said about them.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Rumors are toxic in a locker room. He has a reputation that is not just blog message boards, but pretty wide spread. That is not good.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
well, the people in the locker room will have a better understanding.
First of all, they see the minor infractions and they witness the atmosphere in the locker room and the discipline.
Second of all, they see Seneca in practice and know if he is truly the best option to start or not.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
his reputation is built on those same message board rumors. show me one news outlet or even respectable blog that has printed that those rumors are true. I’ve never seen a single article on it, only crazy fans on forums.
As far as rumors being toxic in a locker room, two things:
1. How do you know Mangini hasn’t addressed these things with the team? maybe he just doesn’t want to talk to the media about it. I’ll even go as far as saying I’ve never once heard him asked about it by a media member, which furthers my believe that it’s just a stupid internet rumor.
2. It wouldn’t be a rumor to those guys. they’re there. they know what’s really going on. It’s the fans and media who don’t.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Sweet Jesus! The bus ride is back!
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
i laughed loudly at this.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
golan’s done much better.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
I know, but for some reason that was particularly funny.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
1. Rookies on the bus: that was a rumor from a reporter who contacted agents and families. the way players families have often overexaggerated stories and the fact that agents are agents, I would say it is at best a rumor (the primary sources are not the most reliable). Even if it did happen, so? they play a game for charity…
2. The water bottle I have some respect for anyways. normal people in society don’t walk out on a hotel bill. Braylon edwards in much of his actions has shown he is above us Normal people. This was not a one time offense, but a buildup of a lot that BE did.
3. I don’t buy the seneca wallace thing for a second. would Bill Belichick or Parcells do this? I don’t think so. If a guy’s job is on the line, his ass>>>>>his principles. When it comes to saving your job, your own principles go out the window. you see it all the time in society b/c its human nature. I don’t buy for a second that he wouldn’t put in the guy that gave the browns the best chance to win.
rumors for punishing players for minor infractions? what would you have him do, not punish minor infractions? I am glad we have a guy that will punish these players when they do something wrong instead of a coach that lets their players run around in their socks and then get hurt.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
This is all sorts of incorrect.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
supposedly MKCs sources were players’ families and player agents. I can find the link if you want it.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Bross, just don’t. That was a paragraph of straight false.
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
dude, Mangini has said he made a mistake with the bus thing, that’s a pretty good indicator that it happened.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I didn’t hear this…so. I never said it didn’t happen either, just that the original story didn’t have the most reliable sources. It probably did happen, but that doesn’t make player families and agents a “reliable source”. the only thing that this says is incorrect is that “I would say it is at best a rumor” and that is wrong since he admitted that.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Is this serious?
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
yes it is. please stop making condescending comments and dragging this on. If you disagree with something, don’t be condescending about it and just say it.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Listen to yourself.
rufio - December 20, 2010
Villeslgr - December 20, 2010
Well said. It’s pretty easy to lead a bunch of cast offs that nobody else wants for a period of time, but a real leader can motivate the big egos and also get the max from no-name backups.
Mangini’s job is to motivate and he sucks at it. Just watching him in a presser sucks the life out of you.
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
Who, exactly, on this team appears to have a big ego? Who has any reason to have a big ego on this team right now?
Joe Thomas? Mangini’s having a really hard time with that ego.
rufio - December 20, 2010
The way Matt Roth has come off at times (in Miami and here), it seems like he may have a bit of a big ego. We have not heard any problems however, so even though there may be someone on the team with a big ego, he has seemed to have been motivated.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
No I don’t think we have any big egos, but I think we will eventually and a good leader can assimilate them in with the other players.
HenryDawg - December 21, 2010
so, you’re predicting that someday in the future the browns will acquire players with big egos, and when that day comes eric mangini won’t be able to handle those as-yet-undetermined egos? is that where we are?
seems solid.
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
Especially since Mangini seems to have worked to create a team without the big egos. If Mangini is the coach, i don’t think we will go after those types of players. Also a player’s ego can manifest itself in different ways.
Villeslgr - December 23, 2010
It’s not his job to coach the press.
Villeslgr - December 21, 2010
When I went to the mall, I couldn’t resist buying a McCoy shirt. Hopefully I won’t be embarrassed that I bought it in two years.
emily522 - December 19, 2010
Nah, you’re good. He’ll be dreamy for a while.
Brownie's Year - December 19, 2010
Ha.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
When I watched the draft this past year, and I heard the 3rd round pick, yall should have heard the reaction here in North Texas. People were only pissed that he didn’t go higher, but were really happy that the Browns picked up Colt. Holmgrens history with QB’s is nothing that anyone can take away, yes he doesn’t coach the team but his influence cannot be denied. Colt will be dreamy with us Brownies for years to come. Quote me on that.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
Nice.
emily522 - December 20, 2010
emily – no way, your good. That shirt’s going to be a collector’s item – your only dilemma will be which of the children to hand it down to when they start fighting over it.
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
Take it from a guy who has bought Couch, C.Brown, Warren and Green jersey’s.
Never apologize. Never be embarrassed to be a fan.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
REC!
Brownsfan4ever - December 19, 2010
I wear my Couch jersey when I paint, cut grass, trim trees, and pretty much any other honey do. I’ve been waiting for a special occasion to bring out my Kosar, Matthews, & Sipe Jerseys.
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I would take a Warren or Green jersey over my BQ jersey.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Gerrard Warren has had a decent enough career.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
oh no, not this again.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
He’s been a starter for, what, ten years now. Anyone who does that has had a decent enough career.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
I agree with you, I was just alluding to the fact that it’s lead to huge discussions before.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
At least that huge discussion would be football related.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Now why did you have to go and bring Hitler into this?
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
we need to breed an entire civilization of gerard warrens to rule the trenches. eliminate all inferior lineman.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
This is true. At least William green had a couple decent seasons.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
I’ve got Cribbs, and now signed Authentic Hills, I really want a Haden jersey next.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
When I asked earlier if anybody collected sports memorabilia, it was because I cleaned out a couple of old bookshelves in my basement this weekend and found something my grandfather gave me when I was 10 years old.
Gramps was a Cleveland cop (so was my dad) and he actually used to work the Browns games for OT. He followed them from the tunnel to the field and back to the locker room to make sure no rowdy fans tried to make their way in with the team.
After a game when the team was just about gone for the day he found a binder, asked a locker room attendant if he could have it and brought it home to gave to me with a team signed ball (1981) for Christmas. The binder was Joe DeLamielleure’s playbook and scouting report for the Steelers that week.
I looked all over on the net and nobody seems to have anything like this. I’ll probably never sell it, but was just wondering what it might be worth. I’ll probably try to track down Joe D. one day and get him to sign it. Pretty cool item to own though.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
The playbook and ball together are worth $5. Sure you don’t want to sell?
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
That’s an awesome thing to have, man. I’d get them out of the basement though. There are some nice archival display cases available for relatively cheap.
golanbatrac - December 19, 2010
Definite.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Yeah, I will. I actually hadn’t seen it in probably 10 years and forgot all about it. Funny – reading your signature – the authentic Nazi Swastica armband my grandfather brought back from the war was in the binder too.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
Well, since it’s almost worth nothing and it is Christmas time, I’ll just give it to The Salvation Army ;-)
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
Very cool.
Check with some sports auction sites, they could probably give you more information.
But don’t sell it, no amount of money is going to worth that kind of memory. I have made that mistake before.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
That is really awesome. That’s the kind of item that is priceless in all the right ways. Something you’d want to pass down for generations. I couldn’t tell you the the monetary value, but a used playbook from a Hall of Famer has got to be up there.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Awesome story.
Hey, maybe you could post a pic of them for us (the ball, playbook and scout report)?
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
I’ll do that on a separate post. The ball unfortunately is a lesson learned. It was signed by the entire team. Me being a kid, left it totally unprotected for years. The signatures faded completely until none were even close to legible. I still have it, but it has no value but the memory now.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
The memories are worth for more than any reasonable dollar amount.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
Amen to that, Brother!
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
that’s too bad, but you’re right about the memories. this was a great story. don’t ever get rid of that stuff.
Dawg Nuts - December 19, 2010
I’ll buy the playbook right now.
rufio - December 20, 2010
At this point I think it would be best to give it back to the team. They need it.
JustBob - December 22, 2010
Burn!
rufio - December 22, 2010
My problem is getting anything signed. When you live outside the Cleveland area and the closest team is in Dallas, you tend to not get many Browns signed items. I’d give my left nut to get a team signed Jersey (would have to be JT’s jersey though).
J. W. - December 20, 2010
I really wouldn’t worry too much about that. I was at the game yesterday and saw a few folks wearing a Tim Couch jersey and a couple of others that need to “upgrade” their wardrobe.
WilliamL - December 20, 2010
I’m not sure I’m ready to pin todays performance on Daboll completely, if at all. I have not been a supporter and have called for his head numerous times. Today though, we had a QB throw to both TE’s, all the wideouts in crossing routes, slants and go routes, we ran in the middle and to the outside, attempted screens, mixed play calling on first downs pretty equally etc. What more from the OC could you ask for? With the exception of the debacle that was the end of the first half, the coaching staff doesn’t deserve too much blame for this loss.
We couldn’t establish the run and we couldn’t stop the run. The Bengals dominated the play clock. Neither team turned the ball over or had many bad penalties. The Browns were flat outplayed. Execution was poor and our lack of speed and talent at some of the skill positions killed us again. On two occasions Robo and MoMass had catches on the same series where they actually advanced the ball after the catch and I commented about how unusual that was. Very telling when even a little YAC from our WR’s elicits comment.
The players, for the second week in a row seemed to play flat and without any fire or enthusiasm. Is that the coaching staffs fault? Maybe. Maybe the early success and all the close games have taken their toll, now that there is nothing to play for.
I have tickets for next Sunday. I hope the team can at least get up for the task of playing spoiler.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
this pretty accurately sums it up. I feel this loss had much more to do with execution than coaching.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Good point.
What did you make of McCoy’s performance?
I had trouble watching today – very choppy / on and off stream (I’m out of state – had to watch online…).
burntorangeandbrown - December 19, 2010
I thought McCoy looked very good. Reminded me why I was so excited about him in the first place.
notthatnoise - December 19, 2010
Same here. He made some scary throws, and a duck or two, but this team really seems to have some energy when he plays. It just feels different.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Which throws were scary?
rufio - December 20, 2010
He had a couple in the first drive — one where he was scrambling to the right and threw the ball back across the field to Robo (hell of a good throw, but probably ill-advised) and one to the outside that was this very Delhommesque and close to being a pick six (don’t remember which receiver it was thrown to, but he caught it).
Also, a couple of deep balls later in the game were underthrown and probably should have been picked (or at least contested).
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
the TD to Robi was not a very good throw, IIRC.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
Yeah, that was one of the underthrown balls.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
Random ‘this’. Ignore.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
I also agree with this point. This team seems detemined, but at times worn out. This was a defensive problem today and the offense was not too bad.
bross09 - December 19, 2010
Definitely todays loss was on the D. They couldn’t stop a paper bag. The offense played pretty well at times, was inconsistent, but if we can get more than one stop we probably win. Definitely Colt brings a lot to the team
HenryDawg - December 19, 2010
I agree with you here. I am disappointed by the loss, but realize that if the 30th ranked rushing team dominating a rushing D in the top half is something that doesn’t happen that often and we should be a bit concerned, but not yet press the panic button.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
I thought McCoy looked just a tad rusty in the beginning of the game, but shook it off and looked as he did in his previous starts. That would be – in control, calm, less than overwhelmed by the game and just generally good.
This in itself said a lot for me. People (including Grossi) were commenting that it was taking a while for Delhomme to shake off the rust after missing his games due to injury. Colt had minimal playing time in preseason, none with the complete first team, played in 5 games on little notice and came back from injury with less “rust” than a veteran and threw two TD’s with no INT’s. Something Delhomme certainly can’t say. The kid just has “it”. I hope he can continue to look good for two more games and get a whole preseason to prepare as the starter next year.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
I had the same reaction, and I’m puzzled by that. Last week I can maybe understand, underestimating a team with a poor record, looking beyond to tougher opponenet, whatever. But two weeks in a row? Was no one as embarrassed by the Buffalo game as I was? Baffling.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 19, 2010
As a Mangini fan, this is what scares/pisses me off. Last year he ended the season getting the guys ready to finish what was a crap of year. I can’t seem to figure out why the guys are so flat at the end of this season. Though it has been a long season, with the QB injuries, epic victories, close losses, etc. But every team deals with that stuff.
Villeslgr - December 20, 2010
I think its for 3 reasons…
1 – Teams have learned how to limit Peyton Hillis
2 – Fujita is MIA and the defense went to shit
3 – As you said, the QB carousel we have had (STAY HEALTHY COLT!)
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
I think our free pass with Hillis is over. We are going to have to be better on offense in general for him to maintain his success. we need to be able to keep defenses off balance.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Yeah, there will be no more games where the opposition comes in not knowing who the hell Peyton Hillis is (see: Suggs, Terrell). Until we can do something else on offense, teams are going to stack the line.
golanbatrac - December 20, 2010
You can’t win forever with a one trick pony, even one of the best ones on the farm.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
Ditto what you guys said. I do think this offense could be more multi-dimensional but for some reason they do not call the games that way.
Brownsyup - December 20, 2010
this goes back to the discussion of the weapons available to the browns on offense. the fact of the matter is we’ve been dealing w/ a qb morass all year, the worst WR corps in the game (4 individual WRs have more receiving yards than the browns’ ENTIRE WR group), a terrible right side of the OL (really more the RT than anything), injuries and inconsistency at TE (though watson appears to be a bright spot), and zero production out of the back up RBs.
if you can only run 1 way w/ 1 guy, and throwing to anyone but your TE is a crap shoot … what the hell other dimensions are there?
DontCallMeJoey - December 20, 2010
Exactly. There is a serious lack of talent on this team. We are not 1 or 2 players away from a playoff team, sorry.
kingcrimson2 - December 20, 2010
IDK…I think with another draft like this year, but picking up more offensive weapons, I think we can easily be a playoff team. Now making a deep run in the playoffs is another animal all together that I don’t think we are at or will be next year.
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
um, based on everything said above, we’re 1 WR, 1 lineman, and maybe a replacement level backup RB from off the street away from a playoff team.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Linebackers. Both outside and inside.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
I think we do need the LBs and either healthy DL or DL pickups, I don’t think we need the WR. We can pass well enough to win 9-10 games with the WR we have if we can protect McCoy.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I agree. Though a legit #1 would be nice to have, it might be a luxury at this point in the rebuild.
golanbatrac - December 21, 2010
Right now I think more impact would be made by adding to offense rather than defense. Most of the games have been close with average score against somewhat below league average. With another touchdown hear or there we really would have been in contention for the playoffs even in the strong division which is the AFC North. Ideally, we draft and get from free agency a little of both.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
I really think we’re a couple key pieces and a slightly softer schedule from contention.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
i don’t think this is crazy
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
We’d need a couple breaks, too. Maybe Stuckey doesn’t fumble, maybe Colt can complete that throw to Watson in the endzone at the end of the game…
A little old-fashioned luck never hurt anyone.
rufio - December 21, 2010
no unlucky teams make the playoffs, that’s for sure.
notthatnoise - December 22, 2010
If you add a couple key pieces, I see that beign worth maybe 1-2 wins (lets call it 1.5), if you add a slightly softer schedule, that is maybe worth the same amount too and luck would be worth the same. So IMO, with an easier schedule, better players, and some luck, this could be a 9-10 win team. in 2011
bross09 - December 22, 2010
you know, as much as i bang on the receivers, even if we could get a legit #2, then at least we could shift the rest of our sh*tty pass catchers into slots more suited to their abilities, and likely see an improvement in the receiver production.
definitely need LBs … the speed at LB is atrocious right now.
DontCallMeJoey - December 21, 2010
I think we’re still in a position where we need talent everywhere, so I don’t think we need to be targeting specific positions in the early rounds of the draft. Not that that’s what you were saying, I’m just throwing that out there.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
IMO, MoMass may be close to being a Legit #2 (if he had a #1 next to him/didn’t have to be the #1). That being said, we could use another “legit #2”. maybe a guy like James Jones, Jacoby Jones, or Steve Breaston. If we can sign a guy like that (and all those guys can stretch the field), then we won’t desperately need a guy in the draft.
I also agree about LB speed
bross09 - December 21, 2010
I really think MoMass is a legit #2. We could use another guy as talented/more talented as he is, I just don’t think we need to reach for that guy.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Oh yeah, and our LBs are slow.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I am starting to agree with this. Our front 7 has started to wilt against the run and it seems like we need serious depth. with McCoy in for 16 games (hopefully) and if we can find a backup to hillis to give him a breather at times, we should have enough O to win 9 games if our D stays the same/gets a bit better.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
This is all very rational on a Xs and Os basis, and I agree, but doesn’t to me address the lackadaisical, another day at the office sort of feel I’m getting from the team. If last year the team seemed to come to these last few games with a bit of a chip on their shoulder, ready to prove that they were better than their record, the last two weeks we’ve looked like we’re content with how we appear and just marking time until next year’s run. After the Buffalo fiasco, I’d expected better.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
That’s a valid point, but it’s something that is hard to adress, even through a coaching change.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
True to an extent. Human motivation on that level is far from a scientific process.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 21, 2010
You aren’t going to be able to get the kinds of rah-rah energy we’ve gotten from our team this year for a whole season. We’re worn down, I agree, but you have to find ways to win when you aren’t getting the best effort in the world.
We were within one score of winning this game.
rufio - December 21, 2010
You’re right of course. I guess after managing to finish so strong last year, my expectations were high that we’d manage the same at the end of this year. I’d like to see us as building the kind of team that ‘peaks at the right time’ motivationally, not a team that burns out when they’re still technically in the longshot playoff hunt and turns in weak efforts against opponents they should beat.
Well said. A bit OT, I can translate this to my own work environment, which at this point relies a bit too much on semisuperhuman efforts by key high motor team members to save the day, instead of on systems that will take up some slack and foster at least competence when the team is just burnt out and doesn’t have the capes to jump any tall buildings that week.
Quite true, but the last two weeks of play cumulatively and the inability to close that gap are just frustrating!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 21, 2010
I agree. This whole season has been a little frustrating because we have been extremely close to winning some games.
Of course, I probably would be frustrated with something unless we were 16-0 with no TOs, sacks, or TDs allowed.
rufio - December 21, 2010
screw 16-0. I demand 19-0 with an average margin of victory of 21 points. anything less next year and holmgren/heckert/mangini/all of the players must go.
Dawg Nuts - December 21, 2010
Hahahahaha, fatty had an epic 71 yard kick return.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
I love when fatty carries the ball well for big gains.
Simmsinns - December 19, 2010
That was awesome.
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
That could be my favorite play of all time.
Bernie19Kosar - December 19, 2010
Well, last thing I heard before I went into work was the TD debacle. Disgusting. I have it recorded a few drives before that when I left. I’m really just watching to see McCoy drive them down like the leader he is and get mildly excited for what I missed.
I was extremely pissed at work. Thank God I got ahead, because I was just bummed for a few hours. This team is exhausting and I have no clue what to think of it or what may come next year.
SpecialBrownie - December 19, 2010
Well, damn, another loss to a bad team. Watched the 3 minutes RedZoneChannel devoted this game and the first touchdown was kind of pathetic. Benson wasn’t even touched.
Heckert could wake up tomorrow and sign a random guy off the street to play RT.
BuenosAires_Dawg - December 19, 2010
On Mangini staying or leaving… I’d only fire him if we’re going to bring someone better. No experiments, no college coaches, no Holmgren on the sidelines.
BuenosAires_Dawg - December 19, 2010
Another bad loss to a bad team by a bad team. One playoff appearance by the “new” Browns. It just goes on and on. Yea, McCoy. I just can’t get excited about anything with this team. Go Spring!
Displaced Dawg - December 19, 2010
I’m really not trying to attack you here, but if you can’t get excited about anything why be a fan? Isn’t that the fun of it?
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
No doubt.
This season has hit a rough patch, but this season has been 100x times more enjoyable than last season.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
There were week last year when I almost didn’t bother watching.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
weeks, even.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
It was hard to watch.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I agree that it was hard but I have to admit that the Browns have sure been a heck of a lot more fun to watch this year than last year.
Brownsyup - December 21, 2010
on a scale of one to fun this year has been cedar point compared to last year’s dentist appointment.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
Rec, good analogy
Kimble_79 - December 21, 2010
thankfully I only watched 2 games before Jerome Harrison’s ridiculous performance; the opening game and the Bills game.
bross09 - December 21, 2010
Harvey Danger playing into the commercial on the Pats game!
DaveDawg09 - December 19, 2010
McCoy and Hillis admit team was flat for 2nd straight week.
McCoy calls out older players on team.
Mangini says team was flat last week but not this week.
Will the team put up a fight the next 2 weeks or will they just lay down?
palcal - December 19, 2010
I have said this a ton when McCoy has been in the game, but why not run a little more no-huddle with him? The times it has been run (especially in the 2 minute) has been quite successful. Why not give it a shot when the offense is struggling to move down the field? Runs and passes can still be mixed in and maybe cause a little defensive confusion. Just wondering why it couldn’t be done 25% of the time?
Cant_buy_a_run - December 20, 2010
That’s a hell of a point.
Maybe the coaching staff doesn’t have enough faith in him knowing the offense? I’m just guessing here.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
That can’t be farther from the truth. He calls more audibles and receives more “choice” plays than Delhomme or Wallace, it seems. I think he has the best grasp of this offense.
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
I don’t believe this one bit.
Bernie19Kosar - December 20, 2010
Well, actually Mangini said it in a presser about 4(?) weeks ago, so it is, in fact true.
SpecialBrownie - December 20, 2010
I see WRs running option routes out there. Mangini has said in 4th and short situations, Colt has 4-6 plays at his disposal at the line.
rufio - December 21, 2010
I am totally and completely for this.
rufio - December 21, 2010
Wow… Lots of people jumping on the “fire Mangini” bandwagon.
But before you do that, think about this: Did ANYONE think that we had any chance in hell to play the way that we have against the Ravens, Falcons, Pittsburgh, New England, New Orleans, or the Jets before the beginning of the season? Realistically, I did not.
We just are not that talented. We’ve got an offensive line with no depth. We’ve got about 2.5 WRs on our roster. We have a RB that is pretty awesome but that doesn’t have any talent whatsoever that can come in and give him a breather. Our defense is pretty good, but we lack depth. Is it any wonder that during week 14 and 15 we might be getting a little tired? Maybe that’s a big reason we’ve lost the last 2 weeks?
Mangini has gotten this team to play a lot better than I think any of us really could have expected.
It blows my mind that people want to run him out of town now. I mean do we suffer from some sort of a mental condition that comes with being a Browns fan? Oh man… Two bad games, let’s hit the reset button… Get real! Eric Mangini has COMPLETELY turned this team around since he got here. We are more disciplined. We work hard and we play hard. So our tired and not very talented team has lost two games in a row to teams that we were expecting to beat. Big freaking deal. I’m as tired of losing as anyone, but you’ve got to consider other factors than just the coach.
Now don’t read this and say that the coaches don’t deserve some responsibility for the last two weeks. There have been times when the coaches did not make calls that they should have. But those are things that can be taught. You can’t teach the things like discipline, hard work, leadership, never quitting, and other qualities that Mangini has. I’d much rather have someone with Mangini’s qualities than a football genius without them. Give me a coach that has both the intangibles that Mangini and that is a football genius at the same time and THEN I’d be OK with maybe letting Mangini go. But I think it’s really rare. Mangini has the part of the puzzle you can’t teach- When he masters the X’s and O’s we will have a great coach on our hands. I’m willing to wait for that.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
Well said. You basically just made a comparison from Mangini to Crennel. Crennel has proven in multiple stops to be a genius when it comes to being a DC and coaching up a defense. However, that team seemed to quit a lot on him, there never seemed to be much leadership, and there was absolutely no discipline. Mangini definitely has the belichick intangibles, whereas crennel has the belichick defensive brilliance.
bross09 - December 20, 2010
Hillis, who ran only 14 times but averaged 4.2 yards for a total of 59, echoed those sentiments.
Isn’t it Mangini’s job to get the team fired up, not a couple of rookies?_
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
Then again, as DaveDawg mentioned above, I guess the last half of the season has taken its toll (physically and mentally), especially on some of the older players in the trenches. Hard for anyone to get pumped up when you’re playing the lame duck stretch of the season with no playoff hopes I guess.
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
The question is, how did this team get so motivated late last year? What’s different?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
last year they had no good games to fall back on.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Maybe so. They’ve already confounded expectations this year and they’re content. If so, that’s a problem, because when we hit .500 next year, the same thing is going to happen.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
You said basically what I wanted to say below. They’ve been fired up for the last 13-14 weeks, and with the lack of depth that we have, I gotta believe it is taking its toll. I think that’s what has been going on in the last two games especially with the OL and Peyton Hillis. And lets face it- Outside of Ben Watson, we don’t really have anywhere else to go on offense.
shep615 - December 20, 2010
didn’t like half of those yards come on one run?
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
I was encouraged by mccoy’s actions at the end of the game.
First off he had that competitive angry with the loss look on his face.
Then he looked like he was telling the team we’ll get em next time.
Breath of fresh air!
Looks like holmgren does know how to pick qbs.
tribe71 - December 20, 2010
I watched Colt here in Texas for 4 years. Some guys just have something in them that makes them WINNERS. Whatever IT is, Colt has IT. His first year here was a little rough, but he had championship players around him from Vince Young’s NC team to help him through. After that HE was the leader, the MAN. He will bring those qualities to the Browns, and with a better talent around him, he will take the team to better times. “Too small, too skinny, from a small town” they said it all about Colt, but he ONLY turned out the most wins for a QB in DI history. He was just a ROOKIE, what and see what happens from here.
“IT”
Ryderdrumr - December 24, 2010
Congratulations on finding a way to lose to a better team, even if they´re employing the same losing per committee approach we are.
I´ve changed my mind about not being spoilers versus our own division though. I mean, I´m saying it wrong. I have my doubts regarding the Ravens and Steelers readiness this year, we should expose their weaknesses, and see what the wishing well holds for us.
mooncamping - December 20, 2010
I thought rats jumped off ships when they’re sinking not on.
Villeslgr - December 20, 2010
They like the smell of death. It’s dinner time!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - December 20, 2010
With all the comments about jettisoning Daboll, I thought it interesting that the PD reported that at one point in the game Mangini was maling play calls on defense, instead of Ryan. What was that about?
Kaner - December 20, 2010
did you watch our defense?
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
Mangini cut his teeth as a defensive coordinator prior to becoming a head coach. You think he was happy watching Cedric Benson run all over the defense? I imagine Mangini had more than a few suggestions for Ryan during the game.
Monsters of the Midway - December 20, 2010
I love all the conversation however, i’m still quite sure we lack the talent to execute the game plan regularly. I believe what Holmgren said at the beginning of the season. “It doesn’t happen overnight”. My girlfriend is football illiterate and she said: “If you keep changing the leader, how can you build anything?” I believe wholeheartedly that our staff will remain in place. Between Ryan, Mangini and Holmgren we have some serious football knowledge. Anybody want to do a player position comparison and see exactly where we stand as a team? I’ll bet our results are pretty good teamwise for the talent we have.
489favegame stat - December 20, 2010
And I sincerely apologize for telling people i’m a long-time fan…..I didn’t realize it was frowned upon.
489favegame stat - December 20, 2010
Don’t worry it’s not, most don’t care. Welcome.
Villeslgr - December 20, 2010
like I said above, it’s not. what’s frowned upon is saying “I know more about this current topic because I’m older than you.” You’re in the clear.
notthatnoise - December 20, 2010
We may have ‘some serious football knowledge’ at the helm (whatever that means), but knowledge and experience don’t make up for lack of creativity. I’m no football guru, but even I can see that the Browns offensive strategy, game planning and game time adjustments have been unsophisticated and incompetent. I don’t know what the answer is, but all I can say is Mangini and/or Daboll better dig deep into that fountain of knowledge and start building a more coherent and effective offensive attack really soon or someone is going to be held accountable.
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
(whatever that means)sorry – this part wasn’t necessary.
burntorangeandbrown - December 20, 2010
All this fire Mangini crap all of a sudden, it just doesn’t make sense. Unless an actual SB winning coach is willing to come here (yes I’m referring to Gruden), I just don’t see a point. We don’t yet know if Mangini can win with a talented team. Why not give him a little more talent and go for there?
I’m not a huge fan of Gruden, maybe it’s that his face is stuck in 1 position, but we know that he can take a talented team to the Super Bowl and win it. If he’s hired this offseason, I may not be that upset with Mangini’s firing.
StuckInPa - December 20, 2010
My thoughts as well.
Kimble_79 - December 20, 2010
I was at the game on Sunday and sat in good seats behind the Brown’s bench. For the first time all year I could see a lack of enthusiasm – particularly on the defensive side of the ball. Offensively, due to the lack of imagination of the offensive coach, it doesn’t matter how enthusiastic the team is – they are going to run the ball and throw when the must. If they would let McCoy throw the ball throughout the game rather than when they are behind and backs against the wall, they would have a fighting chance against the Ravens and Steelers. Even Hillis seemed like he was down probably because his line wasn’t blocking for him. Some of you keep defending Mangini and I don’t get it – its HIS strategy to run, run and run when every team they play is keying on Hillis. I think the team is giving up because they aren’t buying into Mangini’s system. Its time for Holmgren to step in and hire a coach with a good offensive mind and also to draft or trade for a quality wide receiver. The Browns need to throw the ball! It will make Hillis even more effective.
steviepat - December 21, 2010
A couple quick points:
1. It’s Daboll’s strategy to run, run and run.
2. It worked earlier in the year. There are very few games this season where you could make the argument we should have thrown more.
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
also, as far as not buying into his system, how would you explain last season and the first 2/3 of this season?
notthatnoise - December 21, 2010
We ran the ball 14 times and passed 25.
I get your point about throwing the ball more, but that’s been a problem really only this one game. We had a way higher YPA than YPC, which suggests we should have thrown more and that frustrates me too. But I think the far more consistent problem has been our inability to get the key yards, and relying on the run too much in those situations.
Consider the following:
Passing 1st downs
12
Rushing 1st downs
1
3rd down efficiency
2-8
We failed to convert 3rd and 5, 6, 12, 17, 1, and 5. I think we are going to have to live with not converting some of those 3rd and mediums, but we can’t put ourselves in 3rd and 17 and we have to convert 3rd and 1.
rufio - December 21, 2010
none of us have any way in hell of knowing if the players are buying into the system; and based on the little info we actually have about the team as fans, overall things look like they are buying into it.
Dawg Nuts - December 21, 2010
All 3 Qb’s were new 2 the system this year and 2nd year for the team. Starter got hurt first game & he’s lost a step anyway.. 2nd string was competitive but very unfamilar with system then gets hurt. “The Colt” comes in and “WOWS” everybody, a real QB!!! then gets hurt. Back to DelHomme, eh. Hillis was bright spot but 2 many fumbles that killed momentum in Buff game and others. Season becomes out of reach again but great improvement in points allowed, bend don’t break D that starting to spring leaks in running game while pass D was suspect early on but got better with 2 rookie studs Ward, Haden & good play from Elam. It’s been highs and lows like a graphic EQ… With a better offense this team would have been 9-5. I just don’t know anymore. To keep Man & Dab or not.?
Thumpin96 - December 23, 2010
we all know what happened earlier this season. we don’t need a recap.
notthatnoise - December 23, 2010
How did The Browns beat the Saints & Pats????
Thumpin96 - December 23, 2010
by scoring more points
Villeslgr - December 23, 2010
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