This post is sponsored by Sprint.
I'm still at a loss of words for what went down during Cleveland's 24-20 loss to Jacksonville on Sunday. I'll have more of my thoughts during Tuesday's game recap, as always.
For now, it's time to award this week's game ball to starting safety Abram Elam. I viewed Elam as a weakness in our secondary last season and part way through this season because he seemed like a low-impact player. He was just...there. That has changed the past couple of weeks, and Elam really broke out for a big game against the Jaguars.
Elam's final stat line looked like this:
Both of Elam's big plays were made on running back Maurice Jones-Drew. On what seemed like a well-designed option pass, Jones-Drew was intercepted by Elam in the second quarter when the Jaguars were in Cleveland territory.
Then, on the Jaguars' second drive in the third quarter, on Jones-Drew's first carry, Elam reached in and stripped him of the football, much like he stripped tight end Rob Gronkowski a few weeks ago. After stripping Jones-Drew, Elam scooped up the fumble and ran into the end zone untouched for a touchdown. That gave Cleveland a 14-10 lead and set the tone for the defense, which went on to force four consecutive turnovers on the Jaguars' next four drives.
There were other defensive candidates for this award too, such as both of our rookie defensive backs, but I thought Elam had the greatest impact.
0 recs | 246 comments
Goat(s): the entire offensive line. With the exception of one drive Hillis had nowhere to run and McCoy had no time to make his reads.
North Coast Flea - November 22, 2010
This.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Also, Daboll.
Run, run, pass. Run, run, pass. Run, run, pass.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
That’s not really true. We were in 2nd and 19 a lot because McCoy took a sack on 1st down.
Roger Dorn - November 22, 2010
There were plenty of times we’d run Hillis on first and second down. I can’t tell you exactly how many times, but it happened a lot. It was completely predictable.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
I still disagree. My complaint would be not taking more shots downfield, but we did try to throw on first down. The problem was that our ineffective rush game, put us in too many long passing situations, which we just could not convert.
Roger Dorn - November 22, 2010
It seemed that way to me to Emily at first but not counting that last drive and right before halftime they passed 12 out of 20 times on first down.
johnnyphoenix - November 22, 2010
only once or twice. we were also in a lot of 2nd and 11 a lot because we got negative rushing yardage.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
Run, run, pass would have worked all day had our O-line showed up for the game.
North Coast Flea - November 22, 2010
I’m not disputing that.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
I disagree. They were putting a lot of people in the box, and jumping run right off the snap. Extremely hard to run on a team that geared in on your running game in the NFL.
rufio - November 23, 2010
If you mix up the runs it could work, delays, counters, bouncing outside when the over pursue etc. then you work in the play action on third and short and burn em long. Again this all relies on the fact that our O-line plays like they usually play. All it takes is creative play calling.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
I’m not sold on Daboll but just the other week in the Dolphins – Bears game Miami was universally panned for passing so much when the offensive line was in such bad shape. The consensus amongst the media seemed to be that if your line is playing poorly you have to run.
Obviously a shaky o-line affects both running and passing but the Browns appeared to have done what nearly everyone recommended with a wavering offensive line.
Am I off base here?
Monsters of the Midway - November 23, 2010
The playcalling wasn’t very creative, but I don’t like automatically blaming the offensive coordinator for the failures of the players. The O line played poorly and so did the receivers. That puts any coordinator in a tough spot.
Roger Dorn - November 23, 2010
I totally agree. if the O-Line protected, the playcalling wouldn’t have been a significant problem, but it was exposed because the Offense couldn’t execute. I am not even sure if great playcalling could have done much better the way that OL was playing.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
McCoy had time.
rufio - November 22, 2010
He did. So, was the problem his indecision, or are our receivers that bad at getting open?
Western Reserve - November 22, 2010
I think it’s the receivers, but cannot be certain without having game films. It isn’t just getting open, it’s being where they are supposed to be. And it’s catching the ball when it’s there.
JamesPowell - November 22, 2010
My guess is both. I haven’t re-watched it yet. Gamerewind now has 5-6 plays per game with multiple angles, including the WRs, which I am excited about. I wish they had every play like that.
Even if the WRs aren’t “open”, a QB as accurate as McCoy can throw them open. In HS receivers get wide open, in college they get open, in the league you have to throw them open at least on occasion. McCoy has flashed this ability, especially at the end of games.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Our defense looked good accept...
1. I have a problem as an ex- defensive lineman watching for 2 weeks in a row being shaken off by quarterbacks in critical situations.
2. Colt McCoy is still not a lock for fanchise quarterback in my opinion. I don’t like how he throws the deep ball (don’t want another Jeff Garcia) although in 3 of his last 4 starts there was little to no pressure this week his being undersized showed when the defense got a push up the middle he looked uncomfortable and seemed to be watching the pass rush and did not look as poised as he has.
3. Joe Hadan will be a lock down corner in the NFL his recovery speed is incredible and he seems to be figuring out how to play the position.
4. WE NEED WR’s who can get open…
5. I don’t hate Colt McCoy i’m just not drinking the cool-aid just yet although I want to, i like his aggressiveness on a few plays where they moved the pocket to utilize his ability to throw on the run he pushed the ball down field rather than dumping to the back in the flats which is what we had been so accustomed to seeing out of Brady Quinn. In my opinion he is a winner (winningest college QB ever) and I like that i’m just still a little skeptical about his arm.
tytryon biggums - November 22, 2010
and his accuracy is not all that its cracked up to be he has missed on quite a few of the tougher throws in holes between zone coverages
tytryon biggums - November 22, 2010
What exactly is “his accuracy is not all that its cracked up to be” supposed to mean? What is your basis for making this statement?
“I don’t like how he throws the deep ball…”.
There is no receiver on this team that can get open deep to begin with. Is he supposed to start firing balls down into the open field so he can prove how far he can throw it?
Did Colt have a mistake free day yesterday? No. He is a rookie, and he made a few rookie mistakes. But if you look at his body of work during the last six weeks, and if you are judging him on the number of mistakes he makes as a rookie, IMHO he’s been as good as it gets.
You say “I don’t hate Colt…” etc., yet 40% of your five point game ‘summary’ are criticisms of McCoy.
Did you watch the game yesterday? The offensive line was missing in action after the 1st half, pure and simple. The Jags secondary was smothering the Browns receivers with very few exceptions. He played almost the entire second half with an injured ankle (the result of one of several coverage sacks).
IMHO very few QBs in the league, much less rookie QBs would have been able to overcome these factors better than was done by McCoy.
McCoy gave them a chance to win with two outstanding drives down the stretch, when they started loosening up the pass play book for him on the final drives. I believe if they had done so earlier they would have scored at least on more touchdown and won the game.
“Colt McCoy is still not a lock for fanchise quarterback”.
So are you suggesting looking for a QB in the early rounds of the next draft? If not, what is the point of your statement?
burntorangeandbrown - November 22, 2010
I think you are overreacting a bit.
Western Reserve - November 22, 2010
Probably. The Longhorns fan in me – hard to contain it sometimes I guess.
burntorangeandbrown - November 22, 2010
You can’t get so defensive every time someone says something slightly critical of McCoy. This is going to get old really fast.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Well – at least I didn’t change my avatar to Colt like Emily did ;)
burntorangeandbrown - November 23, 2010
Seriously though – you are right and it has already gotten old I know. Sorry, I have a bitter taste after last year’s draft, etc. (blah, blah).
From now on I’m going to suppress my inner Longhorn and just go all in as a Browns fan and limit my posts defending Colt to a more objective tone.
(BTW – sorry Emily, I like your new avatar, but I was expecting you to change it to the cute little sad dog from the game thread – maybe change it later when the browns start winning to have a happier look on his face ;)
burntorangeandbrown - November 23, 2010
Haha, no worries. Glad you’re here and contributing to our discussions.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Haha! If we lose to Carolina, my avatar will probably be changed to that dog.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
This sounds really painful.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
LOL
Speaking of pain…
Watching them play this year gives new meaning to the phrase “Hook em”.
burntorangeandbrown - November 23, 2010
What percentage of your total comments (on DBN) would you guess are, in some form or another, are complaining about a specific post, comment, or SBN user? I’d honestly go with somewhere around 45% or higher.
That’s definitely not getting old, though.
Personally, I’d say I’m somewhere around 6% and 93% of that is calling out trolls.
Simmsinns - November 23, 2010
my goodness!
The Licensed Pessimist - November 22, 2010
This reminds me of Bross Classic®.
North Coast Flea - November 22, 2010
Clue me in?
burntorangeandbrown - November 22, 2010
Bross used to have comments just like these ones up above
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
that sounds like a tasty beer.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
well
if you go back and look at the few deep balls that he has thrown this year you will see… of the ones that i remember a couple to moore which were underthrown… yes he has caught almost everyone but at the same time it has definitely been more due to the fact that he has incredible leaping ability as opposed to mccoy throwing a good ball…on the very first one tha i remember the one to cribbs when they got the pass interference call in the endzone against idk who was well underthrown if he would have lead him better its an easy touchdown… underthrow to chansi stucky 3rd and 7 in patriots game gives his wr no chance to catch it (look it up on youtube.. not saying anythrow would have done the job but put some more air on it and agive your guy a chance…overthrow of ben watson in endzone against patriots 2nd quarter… which are jusy a few and i may be missing big time on this but i haven’t missed a snap of him at qb this year and i don’t recall him taking advantage of the few chances our terrible wr core gives him… not saying it will never happen and it may be from lack of chemistry due to rotating door at wr but i’m just pointing out what i saw…. and the line did play terrible no argument there but if you look at his head when the defense gets any push up the middle it goes straight to the rush this is due to his height and can be looked at as a gameplan feature for opponents to get pressure up the middle causes him to get happy feet and if you look there are points during the game when there is pleanty of pocket for him to step into yet he freezes because imho if he does he doesn’t have the height to see or make a throw… now can he use his athletic ability to nulify this idk he had before but this week he did not
tytryon biggums - November 24, 2010
I’ll just throw out a few generalizations, and then I’m done with this discussion thread.
He is a rookie, is making and will make rookie mistakes. Hopefully we will see those mistakes taper off as he gets more and more experience as a starter. He has a superb head for the game, an outstanding attitude and work ethic, excellent leadership abilities, and a level headed temperament and I think these qualities will help him learn and overcome the rook mistakes.
He does not have a cannon for an arm and his arm strength is admittedly unproven as an NFL QB to date. That said I believe most doubters will be silenced eventually (just a hunch, after watching many of his games in college and knowing what he is capable of).
Within a couple of years if not sooner, I believe ‘his arm’ will be regarded as one of the NFL’s best taking all aspects into consideration (accuracy, throwing on the run, quick release, arm strength, passer rating, etc.). Again – just my personal opinion, but also based on what I’ve seen of him playing in the ‘big leagues’ of the college football world, and what I’ve seen of him so far as a green rookie who was thrown into the deep end of the pool against the best in the NFL (Jags game notwithstanding).
burntorangeandbrown - November 24, 2010
I take it you’ll have more time to post this week since you’re out with a high ankle sprain?
Dawg Nuts - November 24, 2010
I didn’t realize Wit 101 was a requisite for a law degree.
Sorry to hear you failed.
Anyway – happy Thanksgiving to you too ‘Dawg Nuts’ :-/
burntorangeandbrown - November 24, 2010
I didn’t realize a friendly zing, joking that you may really be Colt McCoy, would be so offensive to you. my sincerest apologies.
Dawg Nuts - November 24, 2010
When I heard about McCoy’s high ankle sprain I have to admit I was pretty damned disappointed about it.
Probably even more so than many (other) Browns fans.
I live in Raleigh-Durham, NC – moved up here from Austin, Tx a couple years ago (don’t give a damn about the Panthers). Ironically, Sunday will be the first opportunity I have to watch a televised Browns game since I’ve become a Browns fan and follower.
As an ‘outsider’ / Longhorns fan I have taken a bit of flack for my posts advocating or defending McCoy and have been self-depracating about it and owned up to it in a number of posts.
When I saw your post it really rubbed me the wrong way and I pretty much took it as an insult.
If I mis-interpreted, sorry, and apologies for my bitter response.
burntorangeandbrown - November 24, 2010
Colt McCoy sucks, he was only a winner by the team around him
Kimble_79 - November 24, 2010
lol
Thanks for the note – I stand corrected.
burntorangeandbrown - November 24, 2010
you did, but no problem. It’s all good. Go Brownies.
Dawg Nuts - November 24, 2010
except*
tytryon biggums - November 22, 2010
I am most excited about Haden’s play based on yesterday’s game.
Roger Dorn - November 22, 2010
Haden always looks so fast out there.
Western Reserve - November 22, 2010
I’d take another Jeff Garcia, as long as he wins us a Super Bowl like Jeff Garcia in TB.
shep615 - November 22, 2010
Garcia won a Super Bowl in Tampa Bay? When?
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
By the way, Garcia — despite never winning a Super Bowl in Tampa Bay — was definitely a solid QB for several years.
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
Brad Johnson was Tampa’s QB that year.
BrutalMovement - November 22, 2010
Yup and Garcia was still with the 49ers that year.
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
He was very good in the WCO in SanFrancisco
rufio - November 22, 2010
Yup, and he was able to run the same offense very well in Philly when McNabb went down.
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
Also true.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Shoot! My bad. I thought he was the one that won the SB with the Bucs. I stand corrected. Or, more accurately, I sit corrected, as I am sitting on my TV chair at the moment.
shep615 - November 22, 2010
I don'r want a "solid" quarterback
i’m not saying to throw mccoy under the bus i’m just saying do not pass on any chance that we get that on someone we feel could be a superstar quarterback… lets not settle thats all i’m saying
tytryon biggums - November 24, 2010
Andrew Luck is the only superstar coming out of the next draft and he is going #1 overall if he leaves (if not #1, definitely top 3)
bross09 - November 24, 2010
If we happen to lose out and the Panthers can win another game we might be able to draft Luck. I think I’d be happier just playing to win and taking BVA.
rufio - November 25, 2010
I want to win.
emily522 - November 25, 2010
Winning>>Luck…
Then again, sometimes winning takes luck… ;)
bross09 - November 26, 2010
Jeff Garcia + Better Intangibles = pretty much who we hope McCoy develops into. Anyone who expects more than that is fooling themselves.
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
Thank you for some perspective. There has been a little too much blind optimism around here lately. Someone actually said that they wouldn’t be surprised if McCoy turns out to be as good or better than Tom Brady, which of course is absurd — Tom Brady is a Hall of Famer and will go down as one of the 10 or 12 best QB’s ever. We should be surprised if any QB turns out to be as good as him, let alone one picked in the 3rd round.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Yet you talk about the 6th round Tom Brady…
That’s three rounds later than the third round Brad.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
Yes, I know what round Brady was picked in. That is completely irrelevent to my argument.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
It actually is relevant.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
No, it’s not. And if you think so then you misread my comment.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Oh it’s relevant. You talk up Tom Brady, who was picked in the 6th round, then state that it’d be absurd for a 3rd round pick to even try to make it to his level.
Uh, wut?
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
Yes, that’s how I read it as well.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Please read that comment again. I said it would be absurd to think that ANY quarterback will make it to Brady’s level, which is true regardless of which round they’re drafted in. It would be absurd to expect Sam Bradford to end up at Brady’s level. Brady is a Hall of Fame QB and those are very, very rare.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
…read it again and I see nothing different.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
That’s because you’re not trying.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Is that what you tell your students when they don’t understand something? ;) Just kidding.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
=O… =D
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
No, but most of my students don’t act like that. SB is just arguing to be argumentative, as he often does. His “way to fold” comment just shows that he’s not interested in listening to what anyone else has to say, he just wants to disagree. That’s why I said he’s not trying.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Oh goodness, you read to far into things. It was a joke. Bleh, I would not like you as a math teacher. Math already sucks as it is.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
Do not take that in an insulting way, mind you. All in good fun.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
I just get tired of these long discussions because you can’t read or don’t understand something someone says. Then, when I (or anyeone else) tries to explain myself, you’re more concerned with making a quick comeback and continuing the argument instead of listening to the response. It’s tiresome.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
I did not understand what you wrote wrong, you wrote it in a way that could be perceived in two different ways.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
THIS.
I should’ve just said that right away.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Would’ve saved a lot of bickering, I suppose.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
No, I didn’t. I even italicized the word “any” for emphasis.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Well then we both just happened to perceive it the same different (wow) way.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Snickers.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Baby Ruth
golanbatrac - November 23, 2010
The italics mean the act of doing something by the way, not branding a candy bar.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
I didn’t mean to sound like a smart ass. Honestly.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Before I say this, please note that I have already tried to take your side several times near this point in the thread.
I have felt like you have done this to me on more than one occasion. I felt that I have had something to say, something pertinent and meaningful, but you have seemed generally unconcerned with trying to see my point because it was (somewhat) in disagreement with yours. To some extent I think you are missing out on what SB and emily were saying here in a similar way.
In response to emily’s comment that round is relevant you wrote:
But round is relevant to what you were saying (or at least what i got out of it). QBs from the 3rd round become great much less often than 1st round QBs. She had a point.
Maybe not relevant to your stance, but I think it is definitely relevant to what emily and SB are trying to say: if Colt were to become as good as Tom Brady, according to the odds by round it would be less surprising than the fact that Tom Brady is as good as Tom Brady. Something that doesn’t really support what you are trying to say (but may be some sort of logical fallacy that I don’t know the name of).
We shouldn’t be especially surprised if a QB from the 3rd round becomes as good as Tom Brady, we should be especially surprised if one from the 6th round (or an UDFA) becomes as good as Tom Brady, because that is more surprising than a QB from the 3rd round becoming that good. A 3rd round QB isn’t especially surprising in this scenario because the QB of comparison was a 6th round pick; this is already more surprising than the 3rd round QB achieving greatness could ever be.
Of course, you were referring/trying to refer to a 3rd rounder being especially surprising compared to a 1st rounder, but that wasn’t clear initially.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Yes. This is what I was getting at. Thanks, rufio.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
That’s out of line dude. Cmon.
rufio - November 23, 2010
The disclaimer didn’t help?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
I thought it was still a little rude and too personal attackish. You had a point to make but went there instead of making it. Then Brad thought you didn’t even really have a point to make and were just trying to piss him off.
rufio - November 23, 2010
this is SB we are talking about. He very often resorts to being a little rude and to personal attackish (SB, not trying to criticize, this is just your online personality around here…)
bross09 - November 23, 2010
Doesn’t mean it’s ok.
rufio - November 24, 2010
I didn’t say it was. I am just kinda poking fun at SB while trying to stay away from condoning him or completely criticizing him.
bross09 - November 24, 2010
I think your initial comment came across as it’s absurd to say you wouldn’t be surprised if Colt became as good or better as Brady, because Brady is a hall of fame QB and obviously that would be a surprising thing.
I think the “nitpicking” came in because you added the 3rd round pick at the end. Which opened the door for incorrect interpretations of your point.
Villeslgr - November 23, 2010
Got it.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Ahh, way to fold.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
No it makes sense. I don’t think there’s reason to believe that Colt can’t be good, though. It would be hard to be better than Tom Brady obviously, but we’d all be pleased with someone on the next tier.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
I’d be pleased with anything over BQ or DA which we got day 1.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
So this is all about arguing just for the sake of arguing, right? Not about actually trying to have an intelligent discussion and trying to understand each other?
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Well you’re saying it would be hard for a 3rd round QB to be better than a former 6th round pick who’s great. So, in that case, mentioning the round does become relevant.
I get what you mean though.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Ah, thank you.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
The fact that is was Tom Brady is irrelevant. That was just the player who was brought up in the conversation. But Tom Brady isn’t a normal 6th round pick, and any football fan knows that.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
But who’s to say Colt may not be a “normal” third round pick? We don’t fully know Colt’s potential yet. I’m not arguing that Colt will be on that level, but you really never know.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
No, we don’t know that yet. But the whole point of my comment, as I said above, is that expecting ANY quarterback to be on Tom Brady’s level is absurd because Brady is an all-time great. It doesn’t have anythig to do with which round McCoy was drafted.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
That’s where the wording implies that it does.
Anyways, I think it’s time to wrap this up.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Ala, Lil’ Wayne.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
To continue, if you’re going to judge all 6th round picks by Tom Brady’s standards then you’re going to sorely disappointed. Just because he was picked in the 6th and McCoy was picked in the 3rd doesn’t mean McCoy will be better, just like the fact that JaMarcuss Russell was picked in the 1st doesn’t mean that McCoy will be worse than him.
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Why was any of this said?
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
I’m not saying that at all. And I’m not judging 6th round picks by Tom Brady standards. No idea why that was said.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Then why did you say this?
Buckeye Brad - November 22, 2010
Because that’s what you said.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
Yup.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Also, if you think I believe all 6th rounders turn out like Tom Brady, then you must think I’m not very intelligent.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
But you do think all UDFA’s turn out to be Antonio Gates right?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
No, I think you’re very intelligent. I’m just explaining that Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round is completely irrelevent to this conversation, and I’m not sure why you keep bringing it up.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
I’ll say it again in case you missed it with all these replies.
We should be surprised if any QB turns out to be as good as him, let alone one picked in the 3rd round.That right there is why SB and I both were saying round was relevant.
And SB said this
So that’s all I have left to say on the matter.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
As I said above, I italicized the word “any” for emphasis.
And that’s also why I said that you can’t think of Tom Brady as a normal 6th round QB. You said you know that and seemed insulted that I said it, but you keep bringing up the fact that he was drafted in the 3rd round and that is below where McCoy was drafted. But Brady turned out to be a million times better than most 6th round QB’s and we can’t ever expect that to happen again, which is why I don’t see how that is relevant to my comment at all. If you know that Brady isn’t a normal 6th round QB, then why does it matter?
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
But Tom Brady isn’t a normal 6th round pick, as I said above. Then she asked why I said that — because you can’t think of comparing Colt McCoy to Tom Brady as comparing a 3rd round pick to a 6th round pick. Brady isn’t a normal 6th round pick.
I feel like I’m talking in circles here.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
This discussion is just getting confusing now.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
not really. you know the last time a QB drafted in the 5th round or later was anything better than “pretty good”? 1986 when Mark Rypien was drafted. There is no way you can consider Tom Brady a “normal” 3rd round pick.
In the last 40+ years of the draft, he is one of only 3 super bowl winners drafted in the 6th round or later and one of only two multiple SB winners and guys I would put in consideration for calling “great”. Getting tom Brady in the 6th is a once in a generation pick…actually, picking a guy that late like tom brady is even more scarce than that…It may have never happened before him.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
I know some people here disagree with me but I think Tom Brady shouldn’t even be used as a comparison because the cheating really helped his development in to what he is today, which is why I will always say if he goes to the HoF he needs an asterisk. Same as with McGuire, Bonds, or Sosa.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
I disagree (just because I am not one to villainize without more conclusive evidence which sadly…doesn’t exist) with the reasoning, but agree with the premise that he shouldn’t ever be used as a comparison.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
I didn’t 100% get it but did agree with your point. I now see it though. SB, let me explain what I see. If a guy drafted #1 turns out to be Tom Brady we should be surprised. If a guy drafted #1 turns out to be Peyton Manning or Favre, we should be surprised.
also adding: IMO, if any player we draft turns into a future HOFer, regardless of draft position and playing position, we SHOULD be surprised.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
I think what he is saying is that is absurd every time any QB from any round becomes as good as Tom Brady.
rufio - November 23, 2010
This is what Brad meant:
The odds of any QB approaching Tom Brady’s level are extremely low. Not only are those odds low for QBs picked in all rounds, those odds decrease for QBs drafted later. A random QB picked in the third round has lower odds of becoming that good versus the odds of a QB picked in the first round.
Though he is correct that the success rates correlate with the round the QB was drafted in, I am not sure how much causality is in effect (definitely at least some), which would personally be what I would look at when determining my expectations. If I couldn’t look at causality, I think looking at something that correlates more strongly than round drafted would be my choice.
This debate of correlation vs. causation and their implications for expectation is something Brad an I got in to over at FTS because I expected the Boston Celtics to perform much better than their seed normally does in the NBA playoffs. I do not really wish to get into it again.
rufio - November 23, 2010
My comment had absolutely nothing to do with correlation v. causation. I’m not even sure why you brought that up.
Your first comment was correct — my whole point was that it’s unrealistic to expect any rookie QB to end up with a career as good as Tom Brady’s because he’s a Hall of Fame QB and those are very, very rare.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Not correlation vs. causation alone, but with respect to expectations. Though every time someone “beats the odds” they are statistically…overcoming odds, I still think there is reason to believe specific people will overcome those odds (expectations).
Also, being selected in the first round could very well have some causal effect on success in the NFL. First round picks are usually given opportunities earlier, they are seen as more of an investment for the team, they will always get a chance to actually play in games, coaches might have more patience with them and give them more chances, etc.
So I think when you said especially a 3rd round QB, that’s for two reasons; the odds are not good for 3rd rounders and they also don’t have all of those causal things working for them that 1st rounders do.
By the same coin, it is reasonable to expect some third rounders to do better and defy those odds because round picked does not have the most direct causal impact on success in the NFL; when I drop an apple I expect it to hit the ground not because every apple dropped from a tree previously hit the ground (odds), I expect it to hit the ground because gravity causes it to do so (causation).
So I think saying it has “absolutely nothing” to do with correlation vs. causation is incorrect.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Yeah, I understand what Brad was saying now. So it’s all good. No worries. And my reply to you above with the blockquote was what I was trying to say earlier, but you worded it a lot better.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
and in the last 17 years, you wanna know who the next 3 best QBs drafted in rounds 5-7 are?
Matt Hasselbeck
Marc Bulger
Gus Ferrotte
Around 70 QBs have been drafted since 1993 in rounds 5-7 and you can only find 4 that are passable NFL QBs. >6% is not a good % to base something on. you should not expect 6th rounders to be Tom Brady, nor should you expect every 3rd rounder to be Neil O’Donnell. If Colt is as good as O’Donnell was (or as good as garrard, the 2 best 3-4 round QBs in the last 2 decades), I would be satisfied.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
This is not what is at stake.
Also, these odds (what has happened) have very little effect (causality) on any particular QB’s NFL career (what will happen). They may be good for predicting the performance of QBs (plural) drafted in that round/range, but there is reason to believe in/doubt individual QBs more than the odds dictate.
Let’s say children who grow up in low-income neighborhoods have extremely low odds of ever making more than $60k in a year. Let’s say there is an 18 year old who grew up in a low-income neighborhood, scored a 1600 on her SAT, and has been offered and accepted a full scholarship to Stanford to study chemical engineering. There is a lot of reason to believe that she will overcome those odds (and to not be surprised when she is making a ton of money).
Now, that would be an extreme case, but it still illustrates the fact that our expectations of a child from a low-income neighborhood are not necessarily reasonable expectations for this child from a low-income neighborhood.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Damnitt I went back into the Celtics debate. Sorry everyone.
rufio - November 23, 2010
I can picture you in everyday life:
“Mom, since 1975, 60% of people prefer grape jelly on their toast.”
“Sir, in the last 10 years, nearly 1 million people have bought Salisbury Steak TV Dinners and only 1,433 have truly enjoyed them. This percentage is not good enough for your store to continue selling them.”
Dawg Nuts - November 23, 2010
Oh Jesus. ECON ALL OVER AGAIN
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
that sounds like me…
bross09 - November 23, 2010
The lack of being stricken with a sudden feeling of wonder based on an occurrence is NOT the same thing as thinking that said occurrence will happen.
I have never claimed that I think Colt McCoy is going to be better than Tom Brady. (Although, you tried to straw man me with that argument below.) I only said I wouldn’t be surprised. Meaning there will be no sudden feeling of shock and/or astonishment.
You find my own individual lack of a certain specific overpowering reaction to be absurd. Ok then. I’m not sure why you’d care to go this much time into someone’s personal level of awe about a hypothetical situation, but you’re entirely welcome to that opinion. But I never said that I think McCoy will be better than Brady.
Simmsinns - November 23, 2010
I know that.
I never said you did.
Again, I never said that. And I never said anything close to that.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Well then, apparently there is no dispute here, just a misunderstanding.
See, I read this…
followed by this…
(I was the someone who wouldn’t be surprised which you found absurd. Then it seems like you want to be clear and you changed what it is that you find absurd.)
Personally, I found those to be something “close to that” but I guess it’s open to interpretation.
Simmsinns - November 23, 2010
First of all, I want to say that I didn’t even remember who made that comment so I wasn’t trying to call you out personally. Secondly, there have been many other comments on this site recently which I believe have heaped too much praise on McCoy or raised the expectations of what we should expect from him too far. That was just one example I chose to mention. Again, nothing personal to you. Someone else said that he was sure that McCoy was going to be our franchise QB for the next 5-6 years already, after only 4 games (this was last week), which again is premature. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy with what I’ve seen of McCoy so far and hope that he keeps improving and turns out to be a great QB. But let’s not pretend that he’s here already.
And about that comment — I know you didn’t mean that you thought McCoy would be better than Brady, only that you wouldn’t be surprised if he would. I still say it’s crazy to think that way because, again, hundreds and hundreds of QB’s have played in the NFL in its history and Brady is one of the 10 or 12 best ever. That’s a really high standard, and it’s almost impossibly for ANY quarterback to reach that level. That’s not a function of anything wrong with McCoy, it’s a function of how great Tom Brady is. Colt McCoy could go on to have a fantastic career while winning many games with the Browns and still not be a good as Tom Brady. And I never once changed what I said so I’m not sure where you’re getting that.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Was that me? I don’t recall saying it, but maybe I did.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
I don’t think so.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
I didn’t think so either, but wouldn’t be surprised if I have out of excitement for seeing him play well.
But I agree, it’s too early to tell. But I do like what I see and am optimistic. I know I’ve said before that I think we have our QB, and I still think we do.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
I certainly hope so, too.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Mostly from Longhorn fans. And that’s to be expected. they’re used to seeing McCoy be the best ever.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
Well, not just Longhorn fans.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
also, I have been pleasantly surprised with Colt in the 20-30 yard range and I think he has the potential to be a guy who can stretch the field more than Garcia.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
He’s been accurate there. I read an article by Pluto and Colt’s completion % for throws from 21-30 yards are very above the average.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
I would like to read that article (you don’t have to give a link, I can just go to Pluto’s page on cleveland.com)
bross09 - November 23, 2010
Here it is.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
It’s actually a good read for anyone interested in some promising stats.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
bross09 - November 23, 2010
you guys are so ridiculous.
WINNING is what counts.
I don’t care if our QB is like Bart Starr, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Big Ben (rape aside) or Chad Pennington.
if he wins, that’s what matters.
you go throw a ball downfield and we’ll all complain.
way too much nitpicking.
discoinferno083 - November 22, 2010
Try using “Except” instead of “accept.”
Anyway, the game was lost in the trenches. The O and D lines were beaten and the Jags kept drives going in the second half while we were punting. Plain and simple
Displaced Dawg - November 22, 2010
Try using the reply button.
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
I’d give a “mini” game ball to the rest of our secondary… Brown had the two tipped balls that allowed Ward to pick them off. And Haden had the one pick as well. All of them played great, and I was impressed with Haden in his bigger role.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
How’d Wright do? I couldn’t watch the game.
JulioBernazard - November 22, 2010
Left with injury if im not mistaken
BrownEye - November 22, 2010
Yep. Played one down and was called for a penalty. Injured on second play. Short afternoon, but at least he didn’t get burned for any touchdowns this week.
drjeo - November 22, 2010
And our secondary had a monster game without him.
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
best thing he’s done all year.
discoinferno083 - November 22, 2010
He was covering the bench but it beat him on a deep ball and scored for Jacksonville.
browndawgbacker - November 23, 2010
OT: I love how Richard Seymour dropped Big Ben with one hit to the mouth.
Awesome.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
CRAP.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
Well at least Wallace is ready.
He was doing very well before his injury.
I’d be surprised if he can’t pull out a win against the lowly Panthers.
Just have to hope Colt’s injury isn’t too severe.
If Wallace performs well while Colt is injured, I’ll be very curious to see what happens – i.e. if they keep him in as the starter for the rest of the season (after Colt heals up).
burntorangeandbrown - November 22, 2010
If Delhomme is healthy (as is being reported), Colt and Wallace both sit.
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
shoot me
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
If McCoy is too banged up to play, crosses fingers, why should Delhomme play ahead of Wallace?
Bernie19Kosar - November 22, 2010
Because healthy Delhomme is a better quarterback than Wallace.
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
yup.
Dawg Nuts - November 22, 2010
What possible basis do you have for that assertion?
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
What’s your basis for the other way around?
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
The games Wallace played and his performance in those games v. Delhomme’s games and performance.
TheDriveStillHurts - November 22, 2010
SSS
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
If you think the sample size of Jake Delhomme being a horrible quarterback is small, then we have a different idea of what SSS is.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
Only horrible quarterback to ever make it to a SB, was Dilfer.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Are you inferring that Jake Delhomme taking the 2003 Carolina Panthers to the Super Bowl is a reason to show that he hasn’t been a pile of flaming garbage for the past two+ seasons?
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
Didn’t he take the Panthers to the NFC Championship two seasons ago? Then he had one poor year and the minute he left, it was obvious he wasn’t the problem?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
2008? They were 12-4 and the #2 seed in the NFC.
In the Panthers first playoff game, at home no less, he pissed away the game by throwing 5 interceptions and losing another fumble.
He hasn’t won a playoff game since 2005.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
Seneca’s never even made it to one to try and win.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
And this proves that Delhomme is more qualified to start?
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
Why wouldn’t it be?
Seneca’s been a career backup for a reason. It’s not like he’s always been starter material and they just kept his talents on the bench so he wouldn’t go to South Beach.
Delhomme has proven time and again, he can lead a winning team into the playoffs, regardless of the fact that he won them or not, he got them there and that is a whole helluva lot more credentials than Seneca has.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Brett Favre has proven that as well, and much more than Delhomme has. But you’ve been trashing Favre’s play all year on this blog. Why does Favre’s past success not matter but Delhomme’s does? If past success means that you’re going to be a good QB forever, then doesn’t it work for both playes?
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Says the person who whines and whines for sources. I’ve said probably two things on Favre this year and it was done in the last week. Way to reach, Brad.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Well, two comments are two comments. I’m not sure why that counts for nothing or how I’m reaching.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
Uh, wut? That’s a huge reach in my book.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
You’re changing the subject to ignore my point.
It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve criticized Favre — if he’s not any good now even though he’s had success in the past then why does Delhomme’s past success matter? Don’t argue over semantics when my general point still stands.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
When terrible semantics get in the way of your point though, sometimes they need to be argued.
But every QB is different, regardless and I can argue on my opinions of certain QBs on my own basis. Unless of course, you want that Works Cited again. Just because I mock Favre and then tend to praise Delhomme has nothing to do with their pasts. They both have great pasts, Favre is sucking now and we really don’t know of Delhomme yet. Favre’s past allowed him to rock last year and now he’s declining. Delhomme has a good past record but he yet to prove that in different circumstances. So, I don’t know why you bring up my Favre bashing anyways.
I can like any damn QB as I see fit. Favre sucks now, I tend to think Delhomme has a little more in the tank. Deal with it.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
I don’t really care which QB’s you like or don’t like and that wasn’t the point of my argument.
Delhomme hasn’t shown that he’s good on the football field for almost two years. Favre was excellent last year. So I’m not sure how you can say that Favre sucks now but we’re not sure of Delhomme. He hasn’t done anything lately to show that he’s still a good QB.
This is your original comment which I was responding to. You used the fact that Delhomme has had success in the past as a reason that he’d be more qualified than Wallace to start now, but his past accomplishments don’t mean that he’s a better QB now. I used Favre as an example but I could have picked many others.
You can start any other debates and go off on any other tangents you want, but that doesn’t change my original point which you have yet to refute. Using that logic, we might as well bring in Joe Montana to start on Sunday because he’s had playoff success in the past.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
You shaid so much crap, that I can’t even understand what your original point even was. Jeez. Favre sucks now, Favre was good last year and sucked at the end of the year before that. Blah, blah, blah about the injury excuse because injuries count toward his play to.
But then what about Kurt Warner?
He’s awesome in St. Louis and begins to decline. He lays an egg in New York and goe3s to Arizona and is awesome. That parallels Delhomme pretty well so far doesn’t it? Granted, Delhomme hasn’t truly hit his Arizona part, but what if he does? Warner had great past credentials as well.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Well, if you’re not going to follow along then why even bother replying? This is what you do that is so frustrating — you pick out something to argue about without even caring to understand the general point of the discussion. This is why it seems like you’re arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Buckeye Brad - November 23, 2010
I didn’t care about this but you just REALLY annoyed me with this. I have always been a big Kurt Warner fan and get annoyed when people say he “laid an egg” in New York.
he came to a new system, a system with pretty mediocre receivers and a system that relied a good deal on the run game and their star RB. they also had a line that was average at best in Pass Blocking. However, he managed to be a very capable QB dealing with the weapons he had. He was only a “game manager” but was still efficient…and yes you can argue he got “benched” but thats b/c they had Eli Manning and he was the future. Plus, that “decline” in St. Louis was mostly due to Injury and a deterioration of the O-Line.
Jake Delhomme meanwhile, had a great running game, and an elite WR (which Warner didn’t have in NY) and he was terrible in ’09 and terrible in the ’08 playoffs.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
I don’t care about 5-6 seasons ago. I am talking about now. So in my eyes, what happens in 2003 doesn’t matter a lick to me now.
Right now Delhomme is a mess and Wallace is the better QB if needed.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
I’d like to see Delhomme healthy again before I make this judgment. I don’t think that’s risking a whole lot. We’ve been showing the same promise but inability to consistently win with him behind center as with anyone else. We aren’t making the playoffs, and it isn’t like either one is our QBOTF.
rufio - November 23, 2010
THIS.
I know Seneca is a “career backup”, but he showed to be a capable starter in spots in 2009 and 2010 whereas I haven’t seen JD as a “capable starter” since the 2008 regular season.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
Delhomme’s quarter-and-a-half, you mean.
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
Delhomme only played 2 healthy quarters.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
He had four drives in the Tampa game before getting injured. One 3-and-out, one 10 play five-and-a-half minute drive that ended in a punt, and two drives that ended in touchdowns. He targeted our wideouts 7 times in those four drives, including two deep balls to MoMass (one of which went for a 41 yard touchdown).
golanbatrac - November 22, 2010
That TD pass to MoMass should have been an INT.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
but it was a TD.
Dawg Nuts - November 23, 2010
Exactly. Had it been Wallace, it would have sailed five yards out of bounds.
golanbatrac - November 23, 2010
No, no, no. He would’ve tucked it and ran out of bounds for -2 yards.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Out of Bounds.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
Don’t be ridiculous. Wallace doesn’t even look for WRs over the middle of the field which is where Massaquoi caught the ball.
Roger Dorn - November 23, 2010
Hence the out of bounds.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
I would rather it be out of bounds than in the hands of the other team.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
Both QBs had an awful pick 6 that lost us a game. I call it even.
Roger Dorn - November 23, 2010
Maybe Wallace isn’t 100%?
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
I thought Wallace was the number two last week, but I could be wrong.
That is why I think Wallace is fine to play.
Bernie19Kosar - November 23, 2010
…plus the fact that supposedly Delhomme was supposed to be out for longer.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
next article: Colt goes on IR and will be cut on the end of the year.
This is why I don’t read Grossi.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
So, high ankle sprains are this year’s staph infection, eh?
Stupid fads.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
I don’t think it’s been confirmed that McCoy has a high ankle sprain. I’ve read ankle sprain though.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
well…grossi confirmed it.
bross09 - November 22, 2010
He has? Last I checked it was a “may have.”
emily522 - November 22, 2010
He was making a joke Em.
SpecialBrownie - November 22, 2010
Ah, got it.
emily522 - November 22, 2010
yeah. Grossi has good sources in the browns organization, but the problem is when he has to make his own opinions and speculate…
bross09 - November 23, 2010
See, this team is moving forward.
There’s even a chance we won’t cut Colt and trade Peydirt for Brandon Mac in the offseason.
LondonBrown - November 23, 2010
Question: Should I change my avatar or am I basically stuck with it now?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Funny you ask. I just changed mine.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Why do you think I asked? Haha.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Also, didn’t like the one with you in it, eh?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Nah I decided to change it.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
But yeah, I think the flash is my thing now but don’t know if I want to change it.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
I’m surprised you haven’t changed it to a Hillis hurtle picture yet haha.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Eh, too much like everyone else. Although he is straight addicted to hurdling. He might make it become a stat one day.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Yeah there is only one game day guarantee with the Browns: someone will try to tackle Hillis low and he IS going to jump right over them.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
That one he tried against the Jags was ridiculous. He got up there.
rufio - November 23, 2010
Yeah, that dude wasn’t trying to tackle low so Hiilis just said “Eff you” and hurdled him anyways.
JustBob - November 23, 2010
Now I’m not satisfied with the one I have now.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
like twice in the past 5 minutes.
bross09 - November 23, 2010
Is the guy in this picture Delhome?
emily522 - November 23, 2010
I realize it’s #17, but that looks nothing like him.
emily522 - November 23, 2010
Haha, I was just about to say. Yes, no one else has worn 17 at QB for the Browns in a while.
Also, it’s because you’re missing his forehead because he’s leaning back and his helmet is pushing his face together.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
McCoy’s TD to Hillis was #8 on the top 10 plays :).
emily522 - November 23, 2010
*#9.
Too bad MJD’s run was #2. =[ I think our buffet of turnovers should’ve been on there as a top play but whatcha gonna do?
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
If anything it should have been his reception.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
Oh, nitpicking.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
Something you’re familiar with?
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
And before you get your feathers ruffled that was meant to be funny. Damned internet and it’s lack of inflection.
North Coast Flea - November 23, 2010
Don’t worry, I knew it was coming.
SpecialBrownie - November 23, 2010
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