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Dawgs By Nature

A Close Finish: Jets Barely Escape Overtime With 26-20 Win

CLEVELAND - NOVEMBER 14:  Wide receiver Chansi Stuckey #83 of the Cleveland Browns fumbles the ball as he is hit by cornerback Drew Coleman #30 the New York Jets at Cleveland Browns Stadium on November 14 2010 in Cleveland Ohio.  (Photo by Matt Sullivan/Getty Images)

Matt Sullivan - Getty Images

over 1 year ago: CLEVELAND - NOVEMBER 14: Wide receiver Chansi Stuckey #83 of the Cleveland Browns fumbles the ball as he is hit by cornerback Drew Coleman #30 the New York Jets at Cleveland Browns Stadium on November 14 2010 in Cleveland Ohio. (Photo by Matt Sullivan/Getty Images)

NEW YORK JETS (7-2)
GAME #9 CLEVELAND BROWNS (3-6)
VS.
26 20


When the Cleveland Browns lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers about a month ago, it seemed like the season was over. I liked the direction our team was moving in and how the team had been playing under Eric Mangini, but the upcoming schedule seemed too rough to overcome. Who would have guessed that the Browns would beat the defending Super Bowl Champions in New Orleans, destroy the New England Patriots at home, and take the New York Jets to the final seconds of overtime before a heartbreaking loss?

The Browns just took some of the best that the NFL has to offer and showed why they are a team on the rise. If any of our opponents look at the schedule and see the Browns on it, they would be fools to synonymize them with a "guaranteed win." I was crushed after the loss to the Jets, and I know there's no such thing as a good loss, but our effort certainly wasn't one that would lead me to believe we aren't the favorites heading into our next five games.

Let's get to the review of this week's game, starting with the goats and then the game ball...

Star-divide

WEEK 10 - NEW YORK JETS VS. CLEVELAND BROWNS (COMPLETE GAME REVIEW)

Goats of the Game:

  • Chansi Stuckey: First off, I need to make it clear that I don't blame Stuckey for the loss against the Jets. His mistake came at the most inopportune time, which is the reason it gets highlighted here. In an effort to fight for extra yardage, Stuckey fumbled the football in overtime, allowing the Jets to recover. I felt terrible after the play, not just as a fan, but for Stuckey as well. You can feel that everyone on this Browns team supports each other, and you have to imagine it was killing Stuckey that he made a costly mistake at such a critical moment for his teammates.
     
    There seemed to be a lot of debate as to whether or not Stuckey should have stepped out of bounds. In hindsight, of course it would have been great for him to step out. On the replay review, I was praying that his toe had grazed the out of bounds line, but it didn't. Stuckey didn't go out because his signature move is fighting for extra yards after the catch. We've seen it several times this season. In fact, he did it earlier in the game against the Jets, and the move yielded him a first down. In the case of overtime, he already had the first down, but was trying to get more yards for Phil Dawson. Maybe Peyton Hillis could get those yards easily on the next couple of plays, or maybe he doesn't. I really can't fault a guy for trying to get extra yardage, but ultimately you need to find a way to hold on to the football.
     
  • Shaun Rogers: There were several players guilty of this, but even without an injury to Mark Sanchez, there is no way he should have been able to escape the grasp of our defenders like he was. Rogers had a chance in overtime to bring him down, and it could have forced a reverse scenario in which the Jets would have punted to Cleveland, giving Colt McCoy a short field to work with.

Awarding the Game Ball:

  • Colt McCoy: The game-tying touchdown drive with under two minutes to play was a thing of beauty. Throughout the game, McCoy did a very good job again. There were a few times where I initially wondered why he didn't throw the football to someone (he would tuck and run instead), but upon replay, I would've been frightened had he let it loose given the coverage I saw.

General Thoughts:

  1. Lots of Plays Scrutinized: Stuckey's choice to not go out of bounds in overtime was just one of the plays that were scrutinized. I'll take a look at a bunch more here, and my thoughts on each of them.
     
  2. Onside Kick to Joe Haden: I almost made Joe Haden a goat for this one, but I couldn't because the blame could also be on Phil Dawson. This seemed like a case where special teams coordinator Brad Seely did his homework, because the Jets weren't ready for it on that side of the field. It should have worked.
     
    The play really came down to those two players executing -- Dawson and Haden. Dawson kicked it at least ten yards, but either he kicked it a tad too short or Haden overran it. It's a bang-bang play, so timing is key in the recovery. I'm more inclined to blame Haden. Cleveland was trying to get off to the same two possession leads they got against New Orleans and New England.
     
  3. Shotgun at the Goal Line: I haven't scratched my head at the playcalling since the first couple of weeks of the season, which is a good thing. However, in the second quarter, after the 37-yard catch-and-run to Joshua Cribbs, the Browns had first-and-goal at the 5. The Browns lined up in Shotgun on their next three plays, and weren't able to get the ball into the end zone.
     
    The first play was a Shotgun draw to Hillis, the second play was a very obvious-looking swing pass to Hillis, and third play was an incompletion to Evan Moore. It seemed too "cute" given the near 100% success it seems we've had with pounding the ball with Peyton Hillis down there and a lead block from Lawrence Vickers. That's how the Browns scored their first touchdown. If there was to be more of a surprise, you can always playaction from that look and fire it to the tight end.
     
  4. Two-Point Conversion: When the Browns made it 20-19 with their touchdown inside of two minutes to play, a two-point conversion would've won the game (with a quick stop of the Jets). Instead, Cleveland elected for the conventional extra point. After the game, Mangini said he discussed the thought of going for two with Brad Seely, but opted for overtime. Overtime was fine with me, and we had our chances.
     
  5. Haden's Overtime Interception: This is the play that kind of irritated me when listening to the media and some of the fans' reactions, because I thought Joe Haden made the right play. He was matched up against Braylon Edwards, a player who has a good chance of wrestling a ball away if you go for the swat. If Haden secures the ball himself, the Jets aren't going to get it. I'm not so sure Haden knew where on the field he was either -- it's not like he fair caught a punt at the three.
     
    Also, there seems to be an assumption that the Jets wouldn't have been able to pin the Browns back with a punt. Would you really want Chansi Stuckey fielding that punt too after the mistake he made earlier and the muff he had against Pittsburgh a month ago? I wish we could've had better starting field position on our final drive, but I don't blame Haden for that in any way, shape, or form.
     
  6. The Last Drive: I thought it was a great call to run a playaction and target Ben Watson deep on our final offensive drive. Again, if you look at the replay, this was a case where it worked in terms of play design. Watson was open around the 35, but Colt McCoy's throw unfortunately sailed. The second play was a run that only went for two yards, yardage that is less than the norm for Hillis. If he gets five yards there, I think Cleveland goes a little more hurry up and tries to throw for the third down. Since the run "failed" in essence, Mangini took time off the clock and then hoped that a third-down conversion would seal a tie. It didn't.
     
  7. Punt Coverage: Despite being backed up at his own two yard line, Reggie Hodges boomed it down to the 45. The problem was, partially because Cleveland was protecting from a punt block, that return man Jim Leonhard returned the punt 18 yards, with the Jets 37 yards away from the end zone.
     
  8. Holmes' Game-Sealing Touchdown: This one hurt. Eric Wright needs to get a piece of Santonio Holmes, but so do Eric Barton or T.J. Ward. None of them did, and Holmes too the slant pass all the way for the score. This was the play I feared all game long, and it figures that they finally ran it at this point of the game. It caught our defenders off guard and was a great call by the Jets. Even if we make the tackle, it sets up Nick Folk in range for a field goal.
     
  9. Kudos to Sanchez: I kind of ripped Sanchez heading into the game, and while I fault our defense for not bringing him down more, he still did a heck of a job escaping pressure and then throwing perfect passes that were painful to watch as a fan. He played tough through his injury too.
     
  10. Don't Look at the Jets' YPC: If you look at the yards per carry average for Jets running backs Shonn Greene (3.6) and LaDainian Tomlinson (3.2) in the game, it seems like the Browns did a decent job stopping them. Both backs were instrumental in moving the chains on third down or setting up shorter third-down passing situations for Sanchez throughout the game. Both backs hurt the Browns out of the backfield too.
     
  11. The Injury Chart: I'd venture to say that losing Scott Fujita, Sheldon Brown, and Joshua Cribbs for significant portions of the game played a factor in the Browns losing. It was nice to see the backups step in and continue to play hard, but without three veteran players like that, who knows how differently things could've gone.
     
    Example -- Fujita was hurt during the second quarter. Who is to say that he doesn't make a third down stop on a Jet running back in the third quarter, preventing the killer ten-minute drive from being as long as it was? After all, Fujita is the leader of the defense, and I'm sure his presence rubs off on the rest of our players. I hope his absence doesn't hurt us too much over the next five weeks, and that he can return for Baltimore and Pittsburgh.
     
  12. Time of Possession: In case you didn't see the second half numbers, here's how the time of possession was distributed for the half:
     
    Jets: 22 minutes, 59 seconds
    Browns: 7 minutes, 1 second
     
    Yikes! I fault our defense more, because they let a ten minute drive happen before the offense had a chance to touch the ball. It's easier said than done to say that the offense needs to get a first down after being off the field for so long.
     
  13. Bag of Tricks: The Browns have run the fake reverse a lot (where they have the receiver come in motion but still hand off to the running back), but they did it early on with Cribbs and it yielded 14 yards. They also ran a nice little trick reverse run with Mohamed Massaquoi. The run went for about eight yards, but was called back due to a holding penalty. If you missed it, Peyton Hillis was at QB. He took the snap, handed to Cribbs, who when handed to Massaquoi. The Jets tried to run a pitchback fleaflicker, but it didn't work.
     
  14. Concern of Smith: I was worried about Brad Smith running the ball from the quarterback position before the game, but I neglected to mention it. Smith was effective for the Jets, carrying 5 times for 39 yards. David Garrard isn't as quick as Smith, but I hope his mobility doesn't present our Fujita-less defense a problem this week.
     
  15. Backup Running Back: This week's trial run went to Thomas Clayton, who had 1 carry for...0 yards. That's way too small of a sample size, but it's just amazing how our fill-ins can't even muster any yardage when given a chance.
     
  16. Special Teams Tackles: The Browns had five special teams tackles, with three of them going to Titus Brown. The other two were split between Marcus Benard and Joe Haden.
     
  17. No Turnovers on Defense: Besides the overtime interception, which I don't really count, the Browns didn't record a turnover. They had two chances though, and both plays involved drops from the safeties again. T.J. Ward stepped in front of Braylon Edwards on the Jets' first drive to knock the ball down near the goal line.
     
    In a similar-looking play, Abram Elam basically picked the ball and then somehow juggled it high into the air before it fell incomplete. The score was 17-13 at the time, and a McCoy-led touchdown to finish the game could've meant a Browns victory. Our safeties need to be coached up on coming away with some of these plays.
     
  18. Opportunities Galore: If you read this review, you've seen a lot of "what ifs" -- it almost seems like the Browns would've won this game if they made just one of those plays. For every argument though, there is a counter argument -- Nick Folk missed three field goals, and each one gave Cleveland the opportunity to even have those "what if" scenarios in the first place. How many kickers are going to miss a 24-yard chip shot against us?
     
  19. Edwards' Return to Cleveland: I was glad that Braylon Edwards didn't tear us apart, but the whole Braylon storyline ended up being a footnote in the actual outcome of the game. Besides the early mix up that knocked Sheldon Brown out of the game, Edwards was just a normal receiver who caught the football when he was called upon. At least he was cordial after the game, speaking pleasant about the Browns for a chance. That doesn't mean I change my opinion of him, but if he stops talking nonsense, maybe I'll start looking the other way too.
     
  20. Brownies: The announcers seemed confused that McCoy heaved a pass right off the bat to Evan Moore, covered by Darrelle Revis, on our final drive, but I liked the call...the Browns came back to the matchup shortly after over the middle, something all of us have been calling for, and it set up the game-tying touchdown...Peyton Hillis remains tough as nails on his runs, but the first quarter fumbles are a pest...Eric Mangini said he would've tried a 57-yard field goal to end overtime at most (otherwise, it sounds like he would've gone for the Hail Mary).

The Browns played three good games in a row, and now they face the likes of Jacksonville, Carolina, Miami, Buffalo, and Cincinnati. I feel like Cleveland can go 5-0 during that stretch if they play at a high level, but now they'll need to overcome injuries and show that they don't need a "big-time atmosphere" to play like a "big-time team."

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Comments

In response to point #17, I firmly believe in the old adage “If Defensive Backs had hands, then they would be Wide Receivers.” Secondly, while it wasn’t pointed out here, I don’t think its a secret that Robiskie simply cannot get open against NFL DB’s. Might be time to start getting guys like Carlton Mitchell or, if you prefer a guy with a little experience, Demetrius Williams on the field.

I’ve mentioned it a lot and I know rufio has too, but Robiskie is open a lot. The offense simply isn’t designed to get WRs involved. Holmgren even said as much a week or two ago.

Our strength is clearly our TEs.

It’s not like our WRs suck but our TEs are super human. The whole group is above average, but it seems like we love to throw to the TEs in the dead spot of the zone. I also think it’s more design than skill.

our WRs suck. bad.

Nope. Ask NTN, Rufio or try to grab some coach’s tape.

i’ve read what they’ve written, and i’ve watched pretty much every second of the browns game (including from the stadium vs. pats where i spent plenty of time watching the WRs) … the WRs suck. momass isn’t as bad as i initially thought (he was open more frequently than i expected against NE), but he’s not good, and the rest of ’em are terrible.

you can’t see the receivers on the TV broadcast. Stuckey obviously isn’t bad, Momass has been pretty decent. Robi is open. We simply don’t pass to our receivers much.

We simply don’t pass to our receivers much.

i love this trope from groups of people in here … why in the world would we decide not to pass to our receivers much? that’s what they’re paid to do … receive. it couldn’t possibly be that they’re not getting open b/c they’re not good, it’s gotta be that we just opt out of getting the ball to them, right?

I’m pretty sure saying they just suck is much more opting out than what we’re saying.

Oh, read that wrong. My bad DCMJ

Evan Moore doesn’t seem to have an issue catching the football when he is split out.

He was beating Revis in man on man coverage.

He’s a TE.

That’s my point.

When we flex him out, he is able to beat coverage and make catches. Why can’t our WR’s do the same?

Out of all of them though, Moore is clearly the best regardless, that’s an unfair sample. Also, I still said we focus our pass on TEs.

Split out wide means he’s playing the position of wide receiver. Also, what do you mean that “Moore is clearly the best”?

It’s an unfair sample because he’s comparing that which is good versus that which is not very good?

because they aren’t the size of tight ends. Also, while I obviously don’t know for certain, I would venture to guess that when we line Moore up wide we are doing it for a reason, i.e. he’s the main option on the play. generally this isn’t the case with the other wide receivers.

I’m not saying we don’t need more talent at the position, but I think a lot of people are judging the current talent a little harshly.

Combined our starting WR’s have 24 catches for 262 yards in 10 weeks.

At some point in time you have to produce, offense be damned. The Panthers are a horrible offensive team, yet the have 3 WR’s who have better numbers than our starters combined.

and we have a better offense than the Panthers. I think our wide receivers are clearly below average, I just don’t know how big of a problem it is.

I’m of the opinion that we need to get a WR in the 1st round.

Give me BPA

there are enough great WRs in this draft that its likely one will be one of the BPAs (top 3 in BPA) whenever we draft.

or the idea of getting Fitz. then we don’t need a WR.

The price to trade for Fitz would be out of this world.

well…I think it could be worth it.

I thought he was a FA after this season?

After next season, if memory serves.

Like I said, we certainly need more talent at the position. But the notion that we don’t have a single NFL caliber WR on the roster is ridiculous. We have at least two, probably three. None of them scare defensive coordinators, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be making contributions on other teams.

I think MoMass is a 2 or 3. Stuckey is a nice piece, and Cribbs is a amazing KR and good 4th.

We still need a number one and possibly a 2/3 for this offense to be really good.

nailed it. momass is way closer to a 2/3 than a 1/2. this team definitely needs a 1, and could use an upgrade at 2.

[momass] is not good, and the rest of ’em are terrible.

so which is it? are they terrible, or are they nice pieces? If it’s the latter, we never disagreed in the first place.

sorry, i can see how you would have been unclear about what i was saying given my various comments …

the browns receiving corps stinks. period. they are in desperate need of a #1, momass might be an adequate #2 but i still think they need a better 2. if momass is your 3, then stuckey as the slot/possession guy and cribbs as your #4 fit in. when momass/cribbs are your two best, w/ stuckey as a crucial part of the offense out of the slot … well, your wr’s stink

Completely agree. Get a true #1 receiver and receivers like MoMass start to become more productive.

Wow…that stat says quite a bit. Granted Holmgren said that we have been more focused on the middle of the field, but man that number BLOWS

Fair, but would you really say he “beat” Revis? I saw a tough throw in a very narrow space where Moore could get it and Revis couldn’t. I didn’t see a wide-open Moore all alone, which is what a lot of people seem to expect from Massaquoi and Robi.

Moore had the height and strength advantage to bring that ball down. That’s what is often talked about with taller receivers that can get up and bring down a ball in traffic. Moore didn’t outrun Revis but he still beat him.

How many times have you seen that ball thrown to our wideouts, and because that number should be zero, how are you so confident that they couldn’t bring that ball down at the same rate as Moore?

That’s a low % pass to a covered receiver, with a DB who is considered among the best in the league covering him. It was a perfect pass—down to about 6 square inches. Credit Moore for being able to bring that one in, but that isn’t going to consistently get it done on the outside.

This line of the thread is getting long and I think maybe my point is getting jumbled. I’m not commenting at all on that type of ball going to other Brown’s WRs or their ability to bring something like that down.

I’m simply highlighting Moore’s playmaking ability. He did it against Revis this week. Last week against he Patriots he made an excellent grab on the sideline near the goal. I’m not saying he’s Roddy White but Moore has been able to bring the ball down in traffic.

Moore is thrown that ball, giving him a chance to bring it down. He makes a great play and does so. I am eliminating a comparison to that play as a reason to further hate on our WRs, not trying to admonish Moore’s skills He’s good, I want him on the field and catching more balls than he has had the chance to so far.

My point is that Massaquoi and Robiskie don’t get thrown balls like that. They don’t get chances to make these great plays.

When people try to make a point that Moore can “beat” Revis, then offer an unfavorable comparison of our WRs based on that play…that’s ridiculous. I was responding to BK’s comment:


Evan Moore doesn’t seem to have an issue catching the football when he is split out.

He was beating Revis in man on man coverage.

My point is that Massaquoi and Robiskie don’t get thrown balls like that. They don’t get chances to make these great plays.

Well, have you seen the size of those guys?

Have you seen the size of Steve Smith (Panthers)?

When people try to make a point that Moore can "beat" Revis, then offer an unfavorable comparison of our WRs based on that play…that’s ridiculous. I was responding to BK’s comment:

We can word whatever way you please.

If our QB’s and coaching staff have more faith in our back-up TE split out on the NFL’s best CB than our WR, that is just as a damning statement as mine.

No matter what way you cut it, our starting WR’s aren’t producing.

Reading that again, it sounds like I am trying to be dick.

I am not. Just want to clear that up.

That’s fine, I don’t mean to be a dick about the original post either. All I am saying is Moore wasn’t open. It was a great throw and a great grab. I have seen Robi make some great grabs, he’s got ball skills.

But one low-percentage play doesn’t mean our WRs suck. Holmgren said he likes our WRs, I trust him. No, they are not putting up stellar numbers, but I would rather consider them a success/lack thereof by whether or not they do their jobs, not by their yardage and receptions.

Agreed. The whole notion that we just refuse to utilize them is absurd.

That notion hasn’t existed here, at least not that I’ve seen.

Our passing offense clearly runs through the middle of the field. Our QBs have not made great reads for the most part this year.

I would love to draft AJ Green, but it isn’t a huge issue.

Oh, and it used to be the QB play to blame. Now that the QB play has improved, the new excuse: scheme.

Many folks on here, though, do recognize the wide receiver position as a big need.

My contention is that it’s a need but not vital to winning football games over other positions.

I would agree with that, especially when you start to compare to other positions on the field.

But when it’s a glaring weakness on our team compared to other positions then it’s a bigt need for us.

This.

We got our o-line, but could use some depth. We got our RB, FB, TEs, and (I’m pretty sure) our QB. WR’s the next thing we need to address.

On offense, at least.

That’s what I was implying.

Agree on offense, but we need a stud OLB who can do it all…cover, pass rush, and stuff the run foremost IMO

I have been impressed with the run-stuffing ability of our OLBs. I feel that we usually set the edge pretty well.

I would love a super-athletic OLB though.

Little confusing the way I worded that…I meant an OLB that can do it all first and foremost before other positions…not stuff the run foremost.

I would too, but I would still like the guy to be able to make plays against the run. Some compare Von Miller to Dumervil who is a freak coming off the edge but doesn’t make plays against the run and is one dimensional. I would like a guy who is a strong pass rush threat, but can also make plays against the run…I dunno if that is asking too much.

Draft a WR if he is the best player on the board. Sign a WR if it makes sense economically and he would be a good fit. I have no qualms with that. To force a pick at WR because it’s a “need” is exactly what bad teams do.

Of course we don’t force a pick at WR if he’s not worthy of that pick, but getting a top WR should be a priority. If we need to make a trade to move up in the draft then we should do that, provided the cost isn’t too high of course.

I am adamantly opposed to trading up.

I would agree, but that’s assuming there is no rookie pay scale.

True, i guess we need to see what the new labor deal will look like.

Even for AJ Green?

Given the current labor agreement, trading up in the first round is too costly unless it’s a franchise QB that you are sure about.

Rec for that. Drafting is a crap shoot to start with. Trading up only makes it more of a gamble.

The QB play isn’t amazing. McCoy is promising but he isn’t killing it out there. We are just so used to horrendous that decent looks phenomenal.

I think McCoy is playing about as well as we could hope for given the opposition and what he has to deal with.

I have seen him miss open receivers in critical situations. He should get better at this, but let’s not pretend he is playing like Peyton Manning, carving up the best defenses while attracting all their attention. Defenses still want to stop our running game first and foremost.

I am not pretending that. When I said about as good as expected, I meant for a rookie with poor receiving options against some of the best teams in the NFL. I can’t hope for much more than he is done 4 games into his career.

I think WR’s point was that the QB play is improved.

No, his point was that now that QB play is improved people can’t say that the WRs are better than garbage, or point out that we hardly throw it outside.

I guess I didn’t see it like that.

I think he’s done better than “decent.”

I would probably say 183 ypg, 2 TD 2 INT’s is the definition of decent. It effectively puts him in the bottom half of the league. bottom 5 in some of those statistical categories.

Without context yes. If you factor in opponents, style of offense, play-calling, pass receiving options then you get a different picture. Looking at it from a fantasy perspective stats only without context is probably the wrong approach.

Exactly.

His four opponents have been Pittsburgh, NO, New England and the Jets. Four of the top 6ish teams in the NFL. For a rookie?

That’s sooo much better than decent IMO.

The only people I have seen saying it is not impressive are pessimistic Browns fans.

impressive =/= good.

You’re impressed by the fact that you’re seeing a decent performance.

I think he is playing better than decent. and I am impressed.

so 184 yards and .5 TD’s a game is better than decent?

Do you watch Cleveland Browns football?

you are looking at stats out of context.

Given the context of our opponents and Colt’s weapons at his disposal coupled with the style of offense that Mangini/Daboll run, yes I would say he has been better than decent.

Ryen Russilo was talking about him just a few minutes ago on the SVP show. Every analyst I hear talking about McCoy is very impressed with him so far.

McCoy has absolutely been impressive. My point is that right now, he is not amazing. The confidence and “Look at me. We are going to win this game” leadership have been awesome. He is clearly improving, he is clearly making consistently good throws and a few great ones.

But he’s averaging 64% completions at 7.4 YPA and he is 1:1 TD:INT. Yes, we have to keep in mind the schedule and the fact that he’s a rookie (which really bodes well for his future, but doesn’t really help in the present). We also have to keep in mind that he isn’t being asked to carry a lot of the volume of this offense right now. Defenses are keyed on Hillis and the running game. His 3rd down conversion % is lower than it needs to be. There are times where his reads and decisions need to be better.

I don’t think he is amazing yet. I think anyone expecting amazing has some ridiculous expectations for a rookie against 4 of the best teams in the NFL.

This idea of perfect offense really only exists with Manning. Every other QB is going to make mistakes and have poor series and games. McCoy has been just what we needed.

This was not about expectation vs. performance when I brought it up. It was about the statistical performance of the WRs.

How do we expect them to light it up in an offense that goes through the middle of the field, loves to spread the ball around, and has very few passing attempts typically?

It isn’t as if just because Colt has been impressive the WRs should all of a sudden be expected to be 1000 yard fantasy options.

Yea, I didn’t really want to get into the WR discussion because I haven’t watched closely enough to evaluate if the lack of numbers is more a function of their abilities, the offense, or the QB. I am talking specifically about McCoy.

…..if the lack of numbers is more a function of their abilities, the offense, or the QB.

In lieu of clear evidence to the contrary, I’m leaning yes, yes, and yes.

All I am trying to say is that I am not trying to jump down McCoy’s throat. He’s done a good job for us, especially if you grade him on a curve because of the rookieness, the opponent, etc. But we shouldn’t be expecting him to Peyton-Manning our WRs into all-pros.

Right, that is my point as well. Expectations of that sort are unrealistic.

I agree with this completely. I think McCoy has a bright future if he still improves. Look at the strides he made from preseason to when he started. Now, a lot of his play could’ve been due to the awful o-line in the preseason, but still.

For a 3rd round rookie, I’m pleased right now.

For a 3rd round rookie pressed into service against better than average opponents, I’m very pleased right now.

I loved what Mangini said about Colt, that he had a harder time transitioning from not being the starter to being the starter again.

Yes, but we should try to separate Colt’s situation from the equation when we are talking about WRs.

Straws are being grasped at.

he’s gone up against 2 good defenses and 2 above average – average defenses. And he’s averaging 180 ypc and .5 TD’s a game.

The performance he’s putting up is nothing more than decent for a player who isn’t being asked to do much. Saying those numbers is anything more than decent is an emotional response from being happy he didn’t implode.

But he’s a rookie and those were his first four career starts. And he’s playing with a very limited WR group. What more do you expect?

No, he’s not setting the NFL on fire, but nobody expected that. He’s playing well for a rookie.

Which proves my point. There is a difference between impressed by a performance and judging that performance on its respective merits. Like Rufio said, everyone, including myself, is impressed by the fact that McCoy hasn’t gone out there and embarrassed himself. But that’s totally different than saying what he’s doing out there is good on it’s on merits.

The performance aren’t good or great by any stretch of the imagination, there have been rookies who have contributed more to an offense under such circumstances. But that’s good enough for the time being.

He’s looked pretty good though. His numbers aren’t eye-popping. Still early to tell though. If he plays the next seven games, we’ll get a better idea as to what we’ve got.

That’s fine, but I’m really not sure what you’re disagreeing with. I don’t think anyone here is saying that’s one of the best QB’s in the NFL right now.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that’s one of the best QB’s in the NFL right now.

You don’t need to use hyperbole in order to verify your point. You and I know I didn’t imply that, and this originally started from the fact Rufio said his performance has been decent, and people actually having in their head that what his actual performance is more than that.

A decent performance can be impressive under certain circumstances. This is that circumstance, and to pretend like he’s out there killing it, regardless of context or level, is asinine.

and to pretend like he’s out there killing it, regardless of context or level, is asinine.

Again, who is doing that?

You’re forgetting that Rocland likes to argue for argument’s sake.

And I don’t think he suggested that anyone has said McCoy is among the NFL’s best. I think it is, at minimum, fair to suggest we may still be disappointed with Colt McCoy and also that ‘good for a rookie’ may only translate to ‘decent in the NFL.’

my feelings exactly. good for a rookie, very good considering opponents, but only a “decent” NFL QB.

But that’s the point IMO, no one is saying he’s a world beater.

They’re saying he’s playing like a decent NFL QB, he’s playing against tough d, and he’s a rookie.

I agree. no one has said he is a world beater.

I’m just happy he’s looked “decent” after 4 games. He has a nice foundation to build off of.

I’m interested to see how he’ll do against JAX, lesser competition than the other four he’s faced. (Not meant to be a shot at the Jags… I’m not implying at all that we’ll walk all over them.)

He’ll top 300 yards this week. The Magic 8-Ball has spoken!

Yeah but didn’t it say we are going to lose? No offense 8-ball, but I hope you are wrong.

I believe the Magic 8-Ball when it suits me, and damn the rest of the time!

Depends on the number of pass attempts. People keep citing gross yardage total, but you can’t get total yards if we run a ton.

Kyle Orton throws for 350 because he throws 45-50 times per game.

Yep. But the other side of that coin is that the other team knows Orton will be throwing that much and will want to stop him/slow him down. Returns on his passes should diminish unless the other team flat-out cannot stop Denver (shouldn’t be the case in a relatively level talent group in the NFL).

The most impressive are high volume QBs who still put up great stats per play.

Western Reserve above used “improved” QB play to say that the argument that our WRs are decent 2nd/3rd options is no longer valid.

I disagreed, pointing out that while Colt has done well, he isn’t “amazing”. In other words, he isn’t Peyton Manning, who could throw every down to an old couch with two rakes attached to it as arms and turn it in to a hall of fame TE.

I was basically frustrated that the reason for poor wide receiver play seemed to be shifting from poor QB play (Quinn/Anderson) to scheme (we just never throw to them). Basically, I just think Brian Robiskie probably isn’t very good although, yes, Peyton could probably make him look all-world.

This is exactly it. There is a lot to be excited about in terms of Colt’s future. His leadership for a young player, attitude, and accuracy have been great. This is about what we expected.

All I am saying is that if you were ranking all NFL QBs in the order that you would choose them to play a game right now, you don’t take Colt in the top 10.

I can understand the notion of being excited from what has been seen. Like I said I do feel that most of the excitement comes from the fact that McCoy is such a likable figure, the failure of QB’s of the past, and the emotion with the fact that we now have a decent team.

But I don’t think his performance would be so praise-worthy if the defense didn’t make up for his lack of being able to carry the offense(rather than manage it)

I like how Colt has played and it has nothing to do with him being likable nor the failure of the Qbs past. Obviously the team playing well plays a part, but I also think he has played a small part in that as well.

Also it’s football. You have an offense and a defense. Your criticisms are comparing McCoy to an All-Pro and no one else is making that comparison. You set up some bs scenario that no one is arguing just so you have a reason to knock something down.

But I don’t think his performance would be so praise-worthy if the defense didn’t make up for his lack of being able to carry the offense(rather than manage it)

He has done OK with this, we just have an extremely SSS.

He’s not being asked to carry it, and we frankly are not the type of team that will be an all out passing attack. The gaudy passing numbers will not be there, but that doesn’t always mean the guy with the larger overall numbers is the better QB. Take Cutler in Denver.

Mostly agreed. No one is going to convince me that Orton is a great QB in Denver either, despite his numbers.

But Colt will need to carry us to converting on 3rd down, leading game winning drives, and other situations where we really do need to pass a lot. He won’t need to put up 4000 yard seasons, but he will need to move the chains in key situations. Hitting on that pass to Watson would have been huge, for instance.

leading game winning drives

Well, he did lead that pretty crucial game tying drive. We’d probably give him more credit had we won that game too.

This. Funny how some people gave up on last week’s game before McCoy drove us down the field to tie. I hate that miss to Watson too, but you’ve got to give the guy some credit.

I gave up, I’ll admit haha. But happy to be proved wrong.

Heh. I’m not picking on you; I just hit the right window to feel recklessly optimistic there!

Absolutely, a great drive and the kind of thing we will need him to do. That is the arena to evaluate QBs, IMO. Lots of players can be solid “game managers”.

I was very impressed with this. I know it wasn’t “game winning” and was only just one, but its giving me more faith in Colt.

Hitting on that pass to Watson

I wish Watson could have made that catch, or that maybe Colt could have put just a bit more touch on it. That TD could have changed that game.

Like I said I do feel that most of the excitement comes from the fact that McCoy is such a likable figure, the failure of QB’s of the past, and the emotion with the fact that we now have a decent team.

…Or it could come from the fact that he is playing very well in the context of being a rookie, we have faced some darn tough opponents, and…he is a rookie. We have had decent QBs, but the last one to be this good early was Bernie.

I’m not really enthused about debating QBs again with you, so I’ll just stop here and say I disagree.

Again, you are overexaggerating the facts to be pessimistic.

Are you really going to say us facing 3 teams in the top 10 most efficient Ds on Football outsiders is only one good D and one above average? I don’t know what your qualifications for anything better than good are, but I would say that Pittsburgh and NY should qualify.

…and the fact that his completion % is excellent and he isn’t just settling for the dink and dunk game.

You don’t pass to #1 because #2 is covered by a weaker pass defender a very high % of the time, gets a lower % of the defense’s attention, has more of the field to use, and already presents a multi-directional threat due to his position.

Our WRs are not great, but they aren’t as terrible as you or some others would make them sound.

While I’m inclined to believe this, those numbers Bernie put up speak pretty loudly.
24 catches for 262yds sucks…again maybe its not the focus of the offense and maybe it doesn’t need to be, but the point stands that those numbers are NOT good.

I don’t disagree with that.

But let’s say, hypothetically, that Colt was in his 2nd or 3rd year and we had Greg Jennings on this team. First, we would throw the ball a lot more. When Colt only throws 14 times, it is hard for any one WR to rack up 8+ catches. Jennings would draw the #1CB most of the time, a matchup that he can win a decent % of the time. Massaquoi then draws the #2 CB, a matchup he is going to win a heck of a lot more often than he wins against the #1. Robi or Chansi then gets to work in the slot, adding those advantages. Teams only have two safeties and they have to pick their poison and one of them is going to get open in a big way.

The problem is that we drafted two potential #2 WRs, and we have no one with the raw athleticism to beat #1 CBs on a consistent basis. When our WRs have been thrown on-target passes, they have caught the ball. We have seen them get open against not-Revises.

The problem is that we drafted two potential #2 WRs, and we have no one with the raw athleticism to beat #1 CBs on a consistent basis

Then again, most of the time you find these guys in the first round, with some exceptions (though a majority of guys 2nd round on seem to be a good #2 at best in potential). Plus, you have to consider this was a historically weak draft and a guy like MoMass might be more of a mid-late 3rd rounder in 2010

I am not trying to say anything about all of that, I am trying to explain how the WRs we have can be somewhere between world-beating 1000 yard locks and horrible non-NFL-worthy garbage.

I agree. the guys are solid. I agree with the assessed range.

I was merely addressing your obvious reference to drafting Momass and Robo and I was also pointing out that it is hard to find guys with a #1 skill set (size/speed/hands) in the 2nd round.

I know you weren’t implying that we should have drafted different guys, it just felt a little pessimistic about the picks and I was just trying to put it into perspective.

when i see Robi open though, it seems like its a product of the D barely defending him…I could be wrong, but thats just what I have seen from him.

This is where I am at.

Mo would be a solid 2.

our TEs are super human

Overstatement of the year. We have a very good (not all-pro or pro-bowl) tight-end in Ben Watson. A good pass-catching tight-end in Moore and a good blocker in Royal.

Yea, I was going to say, we have solid TE’s but they aren’t world beaters. I am happy with their play though.

I am definitely happy with their play and think the signing of Ben Watson was a great move and is symbolic of how you should sign free agents — find solid vets that are somewhat undervalued that you think will work into your system (see also Scott Fujita) and not try to hit it out of the park and overpay for a big name.

Apparently, you have a problem with reading comprehension.

Re-read your original post. “It’s not like our WRs suck but our TEs are super human” could be read two different ways. That’s a problem with your writing, not TDSH’s reading comprehension.

And stop being an ass.

The dude’s an ass to me all the time, and regardless, uh no.

Exactly. Boo hoo if I’m an ass. I wasn’t even being that much of an ass anyways.

You know I was kidding though….right?

I believe he was saying that our TE’s aren’t super human, I could be wrong though.

As McCoy improves and gets more comfortable we’ll probably see more throws to WRs. At this point I would imagine the game is moving too fast for him to be able to scan the field in total. He’s done a great job of going to his safety valve and avoiding mistakes.

I also think he trusts Watson and Moore to haul in a tight throw more than the WRs (wouldn’t we all).

As a shorter QB his trajectory of throws favors a taller receiver (look at the WRs in New Orleans). Tall guys like Brady can target smaller receivers more easily. McCoy will get there but for now he’s going to need guys who can go up for the ball.

In response to point #17, I firmly believe in the old adage "If Defensive Backs had hands, then they would be Wide Receivers."

that’s ridiculous. Good teams get turnovers and capitalize on them. There is a huge difference between a WR making required catches that defines his position and a DB catching a ball that hits him in the hands.

Could also go with “if WRs weren’t afraid of contact, they’d be defensive backs.”

3 Man Rush...

It did not seem to work well. To me it gave Sanchez too much time. Redskins tried it against Vick last night and it really went bad for them. I think a little more pressure might have helped at times. Thoughts?

I was refering to point 12

The overtime was botched. I still think you had to run first down to see what the JETS would do with the time out. If they took it you could then decide your plan of attack (play for the win or the tie) I think you HAD to make the JETS burn that time out. If you gained yardage on a screen or a short pass play then you could make a decision to throw down field.

THAT being said, I love they played for the win. They were trying to give us a win, which I cannot find fault with. The fumble was the unfortunate play

It hasn’t worked yet this season that I can recall.

vs. Saints.

Hypothetical only…but I think if the Saints had a healthy Reggie Bush you would have seen a lot of what we witnessed on Sunday. Sanchez getting the ball to LT in the middle of the field for easy first downs.

not every team is 100% healthy. we can make “what ifs” all day

I think it would be more fitting to say that no teams are 100% healthy. This is the NFL.

It’s crazy how many injuries have been occurring lately. Every team has suffered tremendously

I wasn’t really trying to play “what ifs”. Just wanted to highlight that our 3-man rush against the Saints worked well b/c they didn’t have that threat out of the backfield. The Jets had duel threats and it hurt us. I suspect that means we (Ryan and Mangini) would need to game plan differently for teams with an LT/Reggie Bush type threat.

I talked before the game about how Bush has a huge impact in their offense.

Typically, Bush is a dangerous weapon, but considering the matchup with us, he would have been stellar. We don’t have a LB who can think about matching up with him one on one.

LT is good and he is still slippery. Bush is good too. That doesn’t mean dropping 8 in to coverage is something that NEVER works or that we should NEVER do. It has worked for us when we have been smart about the % of time that we do it, and the formations/personnel we do it against. We probably dropped 8 the most against New Orleans, and on that given Sunday, they didn’t have Bush in their arsenal.

Hm. i knew we had used it in that game, but couldn’t remember anything positive unless that’s where the extra coverage led to the picks. I guess I just tend to notice it more when the opposing QBs are getting tons of time to pick their targets.

Usually that Quarters coverage Mayock broke down where TJ was killing it is a 7- or 8-man coverage. It definitely helped alter the clock in Brees’ head. Earlier in the year I wrote a little bit about how when Ryan consistently blitzes 6+, the QB knows the ball has to be out when he hits his back foot every time. It is easier to beat the blitz when you know it is coming and when you get the timing and the rhythm of it down.

I thought some of the 3 man rushes in the Saints’ game helped alter that timing for Brees. He wasn’t able to get comfortable, he wasn’t able to know when he ball would have to be out.

I think we also rushed 2 a few times that game.

Good stuff. If I follow that means Brees thinks he sees a blitz, hits his back foot and unloads. Meanwhile the defense only brought three and there are 8 guys in coverage to make a play.

That plays well into what you’ve written about previously, confusing the quarterback, showing blitz and backing off from time to time. Maybe Rob has a minion who reads these boards and feeds him your ideas :P

Ha! Yeah right, I am pretty sure Rob Ryan knows everything in the world about defense. He’ll be alright without anything I have to say.

Personally, if you asked me before the game if running a three man rush and forcing Sanchez to throw into a 9 man cover I would have said hell yes. he does after all usually hover around 50% comp.

Personally, if you asked me before the game if running a three man rush and forcing Sanchez to throw into a 9 man cover I would have said hell yes.

I would have said “hell no” — don’t want to get penalized for having 12 men on the field.

ha! nice catch there.

If we could have stopped their run well in any defense, I would have said “play that one the whole game”.

give clayton a chance. his one run wasn’t good, but it was against the jets. i am very confident that he is better than mike bell.

i know that db’s can’t catch well, but c’mon man. big play abe needs to keep control of that.

i was actually pretty surprised at how low the jets’ rb’s ypc was. it seemed to me like they were running very effectively on the browns defense all day.

disappointing loss, but it looks like the schedule will lighten up a little bit in the next few weeks. still, don’t underestimate the jags. david garrard is a pro bowl quarterback.

i am very confident that [clayton] is better than mike bell.

how on earth could you be confident of this?

bell is averaging 1.2 ypc and is -73.5% in DVOA, worst in the league. he also can’t catch. just saying, it’s hard to be much worse than that.

Well, this lost really hurts considering we had the chance for the winning field goal. But regardless, we are playing sooooo much better this year. The games are exciting to watch for the first time in years and I actually have hope. I’m still calling a 9-7 season and next year we make a serious run at the playoffs.

I may revise that to 8-8 depending on Fujita’s injury

Trying to think logically (rather than emotionally), I would guess the Browns win 3 of the next 5. I would love to think it would be 4 of 5, but the injuries concern me a great deal. That brings them to 6-8 going into the last two divisional games. I say they lose to the Ravens but upset Pittsburgh, making it a 7-9 season. Not a triumph, but a big improvement from their 1-5 start, and sets up next year to be a 9-7 or (with some luck) a 10-6 year. I would take that.

I would still take that. But logically, I can easily see us winning 4 of the next 5, or at least 3 of the next 4. You can never truly count out a divisional opponent (like the Bungles) and Miami will be tough. Besides that, I think the Jags, Bills, and Panthers suck. Don’t be surprised if the Jags finish at 6-10 on the year.

Sure, I can easily see us winning 4 of the next 5. But I can also easily see us winning 2 of the next 5. The Jags beat the Colts so they’re certainly capable of beating us.

I can see us winning 2 of the next 5, but that would happen because either we got a ton of bad breaks and/or we play significantly worse. to suggest either of these would be speculation with little/no merit in previous evidence.

Yes, they beat the Colts on a 59 yard FG. We also beat the Patriots pretty soundly.

Really? There is little to no evidence that we could lose 3 of the next 5 games? You sound like a blatant homer with that statement.

This team could very easily lose games. Our defense could give up big plays in the passing game. Our running game could get stuffed and we would have trouble moving the ball. Our starting QB could finally play like a rookie and throw a bunch of picks. Or we could just play well but get beat by a good team playing even better than us that day. To suggest that there is little evidence we could lost 3 of our next 5 games is just blind fandom.

There is little to no evidence that we could lose 3 of the next 5 games

No. there is no reason to believe, given previous games played by this team, that they would suffer the kind of collapse that would cause them to lose 3 out of 5 to the teams ahead of us.

Based on what we have seen, there is no reason to believe this WILL happen. it very well could happen, but what, besides utter speculation, would lead you to believe it WILL happen.

I never said it WILL happen. I said it could happen, which you supposedly agree with now.

Never said it couldn’t happen. I just stated, playing the type of football the browns are playing right now, 2-3 in the next 3 is extremely unlikely (unless we get bad breaks like the Jaguars have been getting good ones)

I agree with you.

I guess I have to take my 11-5 off the table now. Oh well. 10-6 it is.

I’ve been saying 10-6 all season, time to win out and prove Golan and I right.

Great summary.

I totally agree with what you said about Stuckey. I can’t really fault a guy for making extra effort. That is a hallmark of this year with the Browns; they get every inch out of every play. The team is certainly giving maximum effort.

Onside Kick to Joe Haden

I looked at this a couple of times and it almost looked like Haden was not expecting it. Could he somehow have been on the wrong page? Maybe he just oversold the run down the field to get the coverage to back up. I don’t expect every trick play to work… they can often backfire in spectacular ways.

Shotgun at the Goal Line

I don’t understand not pounding the ball with Hillis several times during the game. They seemed to get pass-happy as the game went on. I haven’t looked at the stats to see the balance of run vs pass—did anyone look at this?

Was Wright on defense against Cotchery when he made that huge reception after he pulled up lame? To me it looked like Wright stopped playing once the receiver pulled up. In so doing he was slow to react to what was happening up field and late to the ball. That could have been an interception in my opinion had he been truly engaged in the play. He gets a lot of criticism and I think some of it has been unwarranted but this was a very poor effort on a key play of the game.

I think that is what has bothered me most about Wright. he isn’t playing too terribly, but he seems to take plays off.

Kinda like Randy Moss… Except without the talent of Randy Moss.

This. it was Wright and I have the same feeling about him.

He is a lollygagger.

He is a dawdler.

Looks like it was 31 pass attempts (18 completed for 58%) and 25 rushes – 4 of which were actually scrambles by McCoy. If you consider that at least 3 of the McCoy scrambles we called as passing plays (I thought he ran one sneak), then the called plays were 34 passing and 22 rushing.

But wait. 9 of those pass attempts comprised the total of the 4th Qtr drive that tied the game. So prior to the last 2:35, the play calling favor the pass only very slightly.

As to Wright and Cotchery, Wright definitely stopped when Cotchery pulled up lame. Maybe he also thought that the front had Sanchez, but he should have maintained coverage until the whistle or until Sanchez crossed the LoS.

Could he somehow have been on the wrong page?

Looked like a sight adjustment that Haden didn’t make to me. If Dawson sees X, he kicks is short for the onside attempt. Dawson saw X, kicked it short, and either Haden didn’t see the same thing or he forgot.

Wright let up on the Cotchery reception, but it is hard to blame him; how do you cover a guy who is limping? It wasn’t like Wright started walking back to the huddle. The way Sanchez rolled, Wright had the leverage to make the throw harder, then almost had a diving tip. Just a great play by Sanchez. The play to slam Wright for is the non-tackle to end the game.

The play to slam Wright for is the non-tackle to end the game.

Yes, yes, and yes some more. TJ took a bad angle, Wright didn’t even try it looked like.

My View

I think there is no question this team has and is improving. However they are going to need to address the obvious weaknesses in the offseason. Wide Reciever core is thin and we need a real playmaker. At FB, Vickers hasnt been very good. Hillis cannot do it all. The secondary has been an issue all year and needs to be addressed. We need another big playmaker in the linebacking core.

As for coaching, I dont believe Mangini is the guy to get to the next level. He wasnt in NY with the Jets and there is no reason to believe he is here.

about the only thing I agree with you on is WR, and probably LB. other than that, I think you’re incredibly off base on vickers, and I think you are expecting too much out of our secondary. a real free safety wouldn’t hurt, but you can find a guy for that in FA or in a minor trade pretty easily.

As for coaching, the year mangini was fired his record was 9-7. Last year, under Rex Ryan, the jets were 9-7. Ryan is riding the team Mangini built.

yeah, vickers is clearly the best blocking FB in football. a couple of drops does not make him “not very good”.

need a LB/pass rush REALLY badly. if we could get a strong ROLB, move fujita back inside (b/c our inside guys aren’t very effective), and let roth loose as the LOLB i think your LB corps is suddenly really good … and in turn helps take some of the pressure off of a not-very-deep DB unit.

with the current rate of improvement in the browns, there is every reason to believe mangini can be the coach to take us to the next level.

Definitely need the pass rush. If you can’t get to the QB then even the best DB unit is going to eventually lose coverage on a guy – which is why we really need to abandon the 3-man rush. We often have trouble getting to the QB with 5. We definitely aren’t getting there with 3.

Agreed. Vickers is a beast and we are a Ballhawking FS (Earl Thomas, Ed Reed type…though doesn’t need to be THAT good) away from having a very solid secondary.

We definitely could use a pass rusher, though I am not in love with anyone from the draft (I know mangini seems to like the guys who can play the run, and pass rush and Von Miller isn’t that guy)

Vickers has been dominant as hell, he just can’t catch, at all.

Maybe what we need to start doing to give Hillis a few plays off is give Vickers a few carries a game from the fullback position. It would certainly make teams think twice about keying on Hillis when they see Vickers in the game.

He is the second best runner I’ve seen on the team this year. He used to be a HB and got pissed off when we asked him to move to FB.

Interesting idea.

I don’t mind Vickers with the ball, I just don’t like throwing it to him. He just doesn’t look comfortable.

What if we could bring on another legit FB during the offseason? Namely one that can catch… He could take some snaps at FB and then between Vickers and the other guy we could have a competent guy taking some carries at RB to give Hillis a breather every now and then.

Le’Ron McClain is a free agent in the offseason and before the season began he hinted that he wanted more touches on the ball… Maybe he’d be looking at leaving Baltimore to go somewhere and get more touches? Just throwing that idea out there.

Spittleboy?

Yeah, that guy. I think it’s still debatable whether he tried to spit in his face… But I think he’s worth a look talent wise. I have no idea what he would cost us but I’d say if we’re looking at being a run first team then I’d be comfortable making a decent investment in him.

1. I totally believe he spit on Crowder.
2. I would love him in our backfield as a RB.

I’m wondering: When Bell (or Clayton) goes in for Hillis, does Vickers come off the field as well? I’m still amazed at how porrly every other RB ha done for us this year.

If I recall correctly Vickers was on the field in the power I for Clayton’s carry this week and I think he has been in alongside Bell as well.

Crap. I was hoping there was some reason that the other guys who have carried this year didn’t succeed. Now that I think of it, even Cribbs’ rushes haven’t been as effective this year, and I’m pretty sure Vickers has been in for most of them too. I guess our ground game for the rest of the year is going to be strictly the Peyton Hillis Show unless Clayton can prove otherwise..

Don’t despair yet JustBob because my memory sucks. I have the NE game so I went back and reviewed it. Bell carried six times out of three different backfield variations.

- 2 carries as the only back. At least one of these carries the o-line opened up some good holes but Bell didn’t find them.

- 1 rush out of the wildcat

- 2 runs with Vickers blocking for him. NE had the box stacked both times, the 1st time 6 men on the LOS and the second time NE had 7 men on the LOS. The second play Bell lost 3 yards but NE blew up our o-line the play.

- 1 rush with McCoy in the shotgun and a delayed hand off.

Every time Bell checked in NE seemed to know what was coming. Bell can’t seem to shake the first tackler like Hillis but I don’t know if he’s as bad as I imagined.

And what are you talking about with Mangini? That )-line that destroyed our D, was all compliments of Mangini. The base of that D was compliments of Mangini. Hell, Sanchez was actually compliments of Mangini.

Only reason Mangini couldn’t continue in NY was basically because of Favre whom of which Mangini didn’t even want but was pushed upon by the owner.

Only reason Ryan has the team that he does is because of Mangini and the beginning stages of that team are starting here. Mangini is doing a great job.

Rex Ryan inherited a team that was already established. Mangini didn’t in NY or here, but has established a solid team in both places.

Rex Ryan’s success is partially the circumstance he inherited.

Mangini

I lived in CT, saw every single Jet game on TV during Mangini’s tenure. He is not the coach to take them to the next level. He did a good job in general but just wasnt the guy to move them forward any further, thats why he was let go. The Jets felt they needed a coach to take them the next step. Thats not unusual in any sport.

People said the same thing about Bill Belichick in Cleveland. Oftentimes (not just in this case), a coach is much better at his second stop in the league because he has learned from his mistakes and learned what does and doesn’t work

No, Favre ruined Mangini’s chances and they flipped shit when they saw that Rex Ryan, the Oh so amazing DC was available and he had more appeal than keeping Mangini.

My belief is that Mangini would have similar success to Rex Ryan in NY. I do think he took the NY job as a learning experience and has improved in some ways.

Disagree with most of this. Vickers has been excellent and the secondary has been consistently improving. Why wouldn’t Mangini be able to keep us moving in the right direction?

I am and have consistently been a Mangini fan. I do have doubts about the offense we run (though that could largely be due to personnel), and also have questions about whether Holmgren can coexist with that offense. From his press conference, it did seem that Holmgren was not a fan of our offense and that was the one place where I got that he was hesitant about the job Mangini is doing. I could be reading him wrong, of course.

The answer Holmgren may want is to get rid of Daboll and put in someone that is closer to what he would like. However, I think Mangini believes in the offense, would not want to throw Daboll under the bus and also think that Holmgren would not want to force a different system on Mangini, ie he knows that is not a good way to get a head coach to do a good job.

The thing about an offense is that…everything changes with a capable QB. I hated evaluating Daboll last year based on him being given Quinn/Anderson. All of a sudden our offense is putting up points against some good teams. Is it because Daboll got better? I think it’s that we have a guy running an efficient offense behind center.

Holmgren can want whatever offense he wants this year, but without the right players to execute it he would just be pissing in the wind. (read: Outside of Stuckey, I don’t think we have the WR corps to run the WCO.)

We’d need a star with some legit speed to run a version of the WCO. We have the Donald Driver/Jeremy Maclin role covered, and the pass catching TE role covered, but we need the Jerry Rice player.

I don’t think we have anybody in the Driver/Maclin role, either.

Yeah, really. Who do we have at WR that is as good as Maclin?

Maclin might be alright, but I think he benefits greatly from DJax, Vick, and that Eagles offense (LeSean McCoy is awesome too) in the same way receivers benefited from Moss and Brady in the past. I think MoMass could play that role.

Maclin is very good, and very fast,

this is an accurate collection of english words

Not what I was saying, but thanks for playing.

Massaquoi can do what is needed of him in the WCO to play that split end position. Would he be as good? Probably not. Does he have the skill set to get the job done? Yes.

I thought the same thing as Chemo.

Me too. Seriously, what did you mean? Honest question, and if I am dumb for missing it, excuse me.

OK — actually, I now see what you were saying.

Donald Driver/Jeremy Maclin role covered

lmao

Wow, you almost redeem your reading comprehension skills and even seem to ignore your bias above when defending my post, then you dig yourself right back into a hole with this one. Congrats.

Rogers

Sounds like Rogers was pretty upset that he didn’t bring Sanchez down on that play. Maybe that will inspire him to put down the fork this week and actually play like the All-Pro that the Browns traded for, not a backup defensive lineman that he’s been this year.

in his defense he’s been injured most of the year, and when healthy he’s still been a beast. he’s not going to show up on the stat sheet much, he is a 3-4 defensive lineman after all.

Also, we didn’t trade for an all-pro. we traded for an overweight disgruntled lineman.

He’s gotten so much better from the Saints game on. Back to the old Shaun that we love.

He still looks bigger and a bit slower than the old Shaun.

I was surprised that he and Rubin weren’t more effective when playing next to each other. I can’t recall now whether they were lined up together on passing or rushing plays, but there definitely didn’t seem to be the dominance I was hoping for.

he really was a monster in this game, too. he had a couple of key whiffs, obviously, but he was in the backfield and acting as a disruptive force all day. it was good to see.

3-4 D linemen aren’t stat machines. They sacrifice their stats to the LBs. The D line works for them. Sure, Rogers gets a few blocks and a few sacks here and there but that’s extremely rare and you should be extremely happy that you’re getting that from a 3-4 D lineman. His job is to open holes for the LBs and to generate pressure on the QB that causes a mistake.

I am really tired of hearing how well we should do in the next 5 games. We should have beaten KC and Tampa too, but we didn’t. This has been a great run, but they now have to show the can win the games they’re supposed to win. Especially with Jax – they are 5-4. We are 2 games worse and they have played some tough teams too. This will be just as tough of a game.

I’m with you here. If anything, our improved play has brought us into a coin flip with a team like Jacksonville.

On the other hand, it is true that there are no more “good losses” for these next 5 games.

Expectations might be a bit high. Good NFL teams lose to lesser teams sometimes. The important thing is to see continued development and hopefully win the majority of the games. 5-0 would be excellent, but should not be expected.

i would expect 4-2 … w/ one “holy shit!” win over a good team (e.g. pitt/balt), and one “you gotta be kidding me” loss to someone bad. that’s today’s nfl, right?

sorry … 4-3. obviously, that’s for the rest of the year, not just the next 5 games.

We were playing Delhomme and Wallace. This team is different with McCoy. The young guys are getting better. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be optimistic after our recent stretch.

Totally agree with all of this. I am optimistic, but cautiously so.

At Jacksonville is going to be a tough game. We definitely shouldn’t be favored considering they’re 5-4 and playing at home. We can certainly win, of course, but I wouldn’t say that I expect us to win.

I think we should win, if the line were a bit wider than -1, I would have bet a lot on the Browns.

They’re only one point favorites? That’s surprising. The Browns really are getting respect if we’re only getting one point on the road against a team that’s two games better than us.

Yea, but I think Vegas understands strength of schedule pretty well and recent trends. I would have bet heavily on the Browns if we were 3-5 pt dogs.

they also understand that jacksonville can’t win every week on incredible hail mary passes and 59 yard FGs.

I expect it to go to +3 when the injury reports come out.

I expect us to win, but it’s by no means a given.

I am really tired of hearing how well we should do in the next 5 games. We should have beaten KC and Tampa too, but we didn’t.

It turns out KC and Tampa are nothing to scoff at. they have a combined record of 11-7 this year (9.8-6.2 over 16 games). The teams we now face have a combined record of 12-24 (5.3-10.7 over 16 games). Overall, KC and Tampa are both better than the teams we will face…except Miami may be similarly as good.

You also have to remember that this team is MUCH improved over the team that played those 2 games. Our QB play is MUCH better and Hillis is now the feature back and doing better than in those games. I also think the playcalling has seemed to improve. If we played KC or Tampa Bay now, I would give good odds on us winning.

Especially with Jax – they are 5-4. We are 2 games worse and they have played some tough teams too.

they have 2 more wins, but I think we are a MUCH better team. they have played some tough teams, but considering the record of teams played, we have the hardest SoS in the league (well, maybe 2nd to pitt but that wavers on a week to week basis). Look at the teams we beat; the Saints and the Pats, those were solid wins.

Lets look at what the Jags have done. They got destroyed by 4 solid teams (Chiefs, Eagles, Titans, Chargers). Out of their 5 wins, 3 came against opponents who have combined for 6 wins (or less than a 4-12 record each over 16 games). their other 2 wins were against solid teams, but in divisonal games and divisional games always tend to be closer. Those 2 divisional wins were on a miracle hail mary play and a 59 yard FG.

Football Outsiders has stats to show, regardless of record how well they are playing, and they are only slightly better than denver

My name is NCFlea and I approve this^ message.

I think losing Fujita, Brown and Cribs so early in the game was a killer for us.

I’m also starting to think that Moore should be one of our starting WR. I think his size and hands make him the best WR on the team.

Over all I think Colt had a good game and I already have more faith in him then I have had in any of our other QBs. That being said I counted at least two balls that were just out of reach (one of them being the pass to Watson at the end of the game). I’m hoping that this is just because Colt needs some more time to work with his WR.

The one at the end of the game was purposeful if you had listened to Colt.

He basically said that he was running out of time in the pocket, the pressure was starting to get there and he saw way more defenders in zone than he would’ve liked, so he purposefully over shot him to ensure there would be no mistake and hoped Watson could make a play on the ball.

That Jets game should be considered an aberration. Forget it and move on. You have Mangini basically playing against his own team. A team built to control time of possession. And that’s how they beat us. They have more talent and knew how to use it to stop us. The upcoming schedule won’t be that same situation. These next games will look more like the games against NE and NO.

The matchup was tough for the Browns. Two teams built in the same mold, but the Jets are further along in the process.

I think point #3 (shotgun at the goal line) is something that wasn’t touched on enough in post-game comments…I understand it on 3rd down because 5 yards out is a bit much to run the ball agaisnt the Jets on the goal line, but running out of a power formation on first down, or even a playaction out of a running formation would have been better

This a great article about McCoy on cleveland.com.

McCoy earned the high praise of Jets linebacker Trevor Pryce, who watched the Browns struggle at quarterback during his four seasons with the Ravens. He was also there for the first meeting this year before being released.

“Quote me on this: ‘They have a quarterback now,’” the 13-year veteran said. “I’m glad I’m not in the AFC North anymore so I don’t have to see him get better. They’ve had quarterback problems for a long time. They now have a legit quarterback. He plays with a lot of confidence and he plays with a lot of poise.”
Mangini declined to say that McCoy can be the team’s franchise QB, but can’t hide his admiration. The Browns are expected to let him play out the final seven games because of how well he’s been playing, but aren’t saying so yet.

“After four games, I can say I like a ton of the stuff about him,” Mangini said, “but I don’t want to put that pressure on him, either. We’ve got to let him continue to grow and develop. Not that he hasn’t been under a lot of pressure, but I’m not going to add to it.”

I also love Mangini’s stance on it. Don’t make waves where there doesn’t need to be any. Don’t push McCoy to prove he’s good but also don’t shun his abilities because you want to keep him on the DL.

He’s basically not rushing to say hes the greatest thing since sliced bread which is fine.

when did Trevor Pryce become a Linebacker? the Dude’s almost 300 pounds.

I really don’t like criticizing playcalling because that’s so easy to do after the fact when plays don’t work, but I really didn’t like the second down call from the 5 when we were trying to score. I don’t mind not running there, because it’s tough to run near the goal line, but throwing backwards to Hillis at the 10 and expecting him to make a play doesn’t seem to make very much sense. That play was right in front of our seats and we could see Moore split out wide on the left and being covered by Brian Leonard. That’s a great matchup for us and one we need to exploit. Just throw it up to Moore in the end zone and let him make a play over the safety. That is probably something which McCoy will see as he gets more experience and do an audible there. In any case, I didn’t like that play call to Hillis at all and it really put us in a bind because he lost yards so we had 3rd and goal from the 10.

Overall, though, it was a very exciting game to be at. Tough way to lose, of course, but I was impressed with the way McCoy brought us down the field to tie the game at the end of the 4th quarter. That kid just knows how to play and knows how to lead. You can hear from his teammates that they’re impressed with his poise and his leadership. And listening to his postgame comments I’m impressed because he’s saying all the right things and sounds like a veteran.

What was the crowd like on that final drive? It seems like even the clecommers are believing in Colt.

I said this in the other thread…but I honestly think the crowd as a whole thought Colt would bring us back. There was an excitement in the air, and it was pretty obvious that if he brought us in for the TD…he’d start to build that cult-like aura.

I agree with BB about the moronic swing-pass to Hillis on second and goal. That was right in front of me, and it was OBVIOUS it was coming and the Jets D was completely anticipating it.

We could see it on TV coming, and I knew it was going nowhere.

I detested that whole series, but that playcall was the worst.

I honestly couldn’t figure out the logic there. I thought it was a spacing play where we had two guys looking to run curls into open spaces up field and Hillis stretching the flat horizontally. If that was the case, I have no idea how the read wasn’t in the end zone.

Yeah, well, if our rookie QB is lined up under center, he just turns around and gives to Hillis — no read necessary. That’s what I want to see in those situations.

If McCoy throws it to Moore there then we’ve got an easy TD — Leonard can’t guard him. Hopefully he learns from that for the next time he’s in that situation.

The crowd was awesome the last drive and the entire overtime. Everyone was standing and cheering — well, except for the four people behind us who kept yelling at us to sit down. The entire crowd is standing up on 3rd down in OT but they’re telling us to sit down because they don’t want to stand and cheer. It was ridiculous.

Wow. If you want to sit, do so. At home, on your couch.

Yea, that pisses me off. Fans like that shouldn’t be allowed to go.

My legs hurt because I was standing from the 4th quarter until the end of OT.

It was an epic crowd.

4th QTR drives to tie up the game and OT demands standing. These so called fans need to be schooled in the art of attending games.

The play seemed to be designed to get Hillis the ball in space and to challenge Jet tacklers to take him down in a one on one situation without allowing him to stretch across the goal. I can see how this might appeal conceptually. Perhaps the idea or execution was ill conceived, but I can respect the reasoning behind it.

I just don’t like going backwards 5 yards when you’re so close to the goal line. Running that play on the 40 is fine, but not on the 5.

This is usually the rationale behind the routes into the flat. There is one defender responsible for guarding the flat, stretch him by getting a “rub” or placing another receiver in an area where he has to guard the deeper receiver, then throw short into the flat and force him to come up and tackle one on one.

Somebody likes Chansi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLFWSLVVWY

See everybody, not everyone wants to lop off his head.

chris, did you make up a word w/ “synonymize”?? well done…

great write up, as always. my quick thoughts:

- the jets’ pass defense was dominant. revis and cromartie really can play and really locked down the WRs.
- the browns’ run defense was excellent.
- the browns’ pass defense was not very good, including dumps to the rb’s, where they were abused.
- the browns’ rush offense was great, and i might argue even under used (although it’s tough to pound the ball when you have it for 19 second in the second half).

I think the running back dumps were a function of the scheme we were running. The Jets WRs even noted after the game that we were playing off a good 8-10 yards, and the safeties were helping deep as well. That leaves a lot of space underneath for a good pass catcher out of the backfield like LT.

Did you agree with the 3 man Rush the Browns used alot in this game? Also what to do with Delhomme and Wallace. I think Wallace could be kept as the number 2 Quarterback. I am saying Delhomme is done.

I thought Rogers did a pretty good job generating pressure despite only rushing 3, if he managed to actually take down Sanchize, we might not be complaining.

Rogers was a beast once again. I don’t see why people wanted him traded

There are a few legitimate reasons for trading him: frequently injured, sometimes unmotivated. But when he is playing his best, there is definitely no reason to move him.

You think he plays unmotivated? That’s kind of a strong charge. I know he hasn’t always been himself, but I’d hate for that to be one of the reasons.

re: twitter and various other statements I believe

scratch that, wrong player on my part

I think his effort vacillates.

wasn’t this the chief complaint on him coming from detroit?

I think he was much more injured than anyone let on at the start of the season.

I thought we were further away than we are, so in my mind it made sense to get something for the guy before he got too old or too injured to contribute.

i was here. being in favor of trading him had nothing to do with his productivity, and much more to do w/ the number of holes we could possibly fill by moving him.

right. it would have been more like a baseball trade.

Great game. I think if the Browns had a little more talent at wide receiver, this game doesn’t go to overtime. When your go to guy is Chansi “Yard Short” Stuckey, what can you expect.

Fantastic write-up Chris.

I agree it was a spot on write up. I am feel good that everyone seems excited about the future!

Thanks for the props, and to those who said it above as well!

Robiskie should have recovered Stuckey fumble.

Robiskie needs to justify his spot on this roster. Getting that fumble would have been a nice start.

recovering a fumble says absolutely nothing to a player’s skill at his position.

shouldn’t have said nothing, but not very much.

Robiskie needs to justify his spot on this roster. Getting that fumble would have beenCatching more footballs would be a nice start.

Lemme fix that for you.

Ouch. And agreed, sadly.

More than anything, Robiskie needed to get a hand on the fumble at least. With the direction he was going, he could have hit the ball and it would’ve had a good chance at going out of bounds. Even if it doesn’t go out right away, it might be closer to the sideline where someone else touches it out. Instead, it looked like a complete whiff by Robiskie.

jim nantz was beside himself at robiskie’s attempt on the broadcast. it was pretty funny (and accurate, for that matter). robiskie literally dove headfirst in the general zip code of the ball w/ his arms at his sides. it was crazy.

Apologies for the OT post. But do any of you remember the event below? The author is from Orangeblood and is implying that Mangini tried to impede Colt´s development.

8. What Colt McCoy is doing in Cleveland this year deserves special attention.

He led the Browns back in the final minutes to force overtime against the New York Jets’ defense. The kid is doing what he did at Texas, coming from behind and being a playmaker. And he’s doing it for a coach who wanted to haze him this season to see where McCoy was mentally.

I’ve said Eric Mangini is a Bill Belichick wannabe with none of the skins on the wall. Mangini was dismissive of Colt all through the preseason, not even giving him reps in many training camp practices and once sending him to the line with a made-up play, so Colt would look foolish in front of the team when he asked what the play was. (Mangini lambasted him in front of the team for not knowing his playbook, when the play didn’t even exist.)

once sending him to the line with a made-up play, so Colt would look foolish in front of the team when he asked what the play was. (Mangini lambasted him in front of the team for not knowing his playbook, when the play didn’t even exist.)

Source?

Orangebloods.com

This seems like a stretch.

You need to make this guy a tinfoil hat.

could have been to test him, to put him through a little adversity.

Yes, Mangini wants to lose games and his job. Why doesn’t everyone realize this?

He’s the ultimate smokescreen.

No good coach will ever try to impede a young QBs progression. What reason would Mangini have for wanting Colt to fail? While I hadn’t heard about this incident I can’t say it didn’t happen, and if it did it was most likely to test Colt’s intelligence and how much he studied the playbook, not to make him look like a fool as described. As far as reps go, starting out in preseason the depth chart went 1)Delhomme 2)Wallace 3)McCoy, so yeah, wasting reps on your #3 and not letting the team get chemistry with your 1 or 2 sounds like such a great idea to me.

If the incident did occur, I’m sure it was in a joking manner to give the rookie a hard time. Not to make an ass of him in front of everyone.

Eric Wright’s dad making noise at the OBR again, pretty entertaining.

tell me more (I unfortunately dont have a subscription to the OBR)

No subscription required. Wright was getting bashed in a thread, and his dad made one comment about how his son and he would be elsewhere next year and that the fans woul dhave to find someone else to beat up on.

is that a promise?

It’s a bit annoying that he would let a few people on the internet affect his decision where to play if that’s actually the case.

I really doubt he makes his decision based on what some fan think.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

But for his dad to even say something like that is a problem. He obviously talks to his son and they don’t feel appreciated. That indicates the end here to me whether we offer him the most or not.

i agree with you. the fact that the dad has been as involved as he has been on OBR says to me that he’ll take fan attitudes/posts into account in his decision.

stupid though that may be

"I think I’ve obviously haven’t had the year that I expected to have. After going through the whole season pretty much playing press-man with no help and giving up limited production, I think I gave up maybe two touchdowns last year as well as limited production," Wright said.

"To have a year like that and to come back and obviously give up a lot more production this early in the year, for me personally it has been disappointing. Obviously, I have a responsibility for this team to be a certain type of player and I’ve let my team down time and time again. I have to play better and until I can look into one of these guys eyes and they look me in the face and say, ‘I don’t believe in you anymore,’ I’m good. That hasn’t happened yet and I’m going to keep pushing and keep working."

Well the 1st step is admitting you have a problem. Maybe he’s finally on his road to recovery.

It sounds pretty good, doesn’t it? Now whether it translates to changes on the field, well…

this is good to hear.

He should do himself a favor and not read the things fans post to the Internet.

Or let his father’s interactions with fans decide where he plays.

I remember when I lived in SF Jeff Garcia’s dad (Bob from Gilroy) and would call into KNBR after games to talk Jeff up. Amusing to say the least . . .

Colt

Just thought I’d share – found another highlight vid (apologies to those who are tired of hearing from us proud Longhorns fans…):
http://www.youtube.com/v/21Tda-n108s

Thought you’d like to see a glimpse of the future ;) Get used to seeing more of this with him behind center for the Browns.

BTW – to this day I am still trying to understand where questions about McCoy’s arm strength / ability to throw deep came from (was just his performance at the combine…?)
I say Browns need to keep a sharp eye out for some talent at WR come draft day (I must say the Fitzgerald chatter did sound pretty interesting…).

well, i don’t think there’s any doubt that mccoy lacks what you would call a “big” nfl arm, is there?. many qb analysts, however, maintain that arm strength is the most overrated quality upon which a qb prospect should be evaluated. as well, the more we see of colt, the more it’s clear that however you want to describe his arm strength, it is at least adequate to make the necessary throws in the nfl.

I think his arm strength is fine. You can see him throw the ball 40ish yards, and he could probably throw longer.

I don’t know how far it was, but he straight chunked that deep pass to MoMass in OT.

Yeah, and MoMass was wide open at least 5 yards past Revis. If McCoy hits him then it’s a easy TD and game over. Hopefully one of those throws that he’ll get better at making as he improves. If Colt puts more air under the ball then MoMass has time to adjust and probably make the catch.

Wasn´t there a flag on that play?

I don’t think so, I think it was a 3rd down.

exactly. he doesn’t have a rocket, but he’s just fine.

I guess it just puzzles me how it was brought up over and over again by talking heads as an ‘issue’. I’m not saying he has a rocket launcher, but listen, I saw many many games he played in college.
Just look at some of the longer throws in the video I posted. In my opinion he is as good or better at throwing an ACCURATE deep throw (ok, maybe not a hail mary 65 yarder – but lets just say the 30 to 50 yard deep out or slant pass) as most starting QBs in the NFL today.
As a rookie learning a brand spanking new playbook, yes he may have thrown a couple that sailed or floated. But I think what you’re seeing is his instincts kicking in – to throw where it cannot be caught by the defender. This again is where he excels. Keep in mind the defenses he has been throwing into the past four games!
I guarantee you when he gets more shots at open receivers downfield you will realize he has a better long ball than you realize.
I’ve heard many people who didn’t watch him in college who’ve criticized him when he was at the combine / at training camp, etc., echoeing the talking heads and not really knowing what they were talking about (and yes, most of us Longhorns fans knew better as firsthand witnesses of his play during college). I believe this is no exception.
IMHO his arm strength is better than adequate, it is excellent when you consider the accuracy he puts on the long balls – the ones you have yet to see.

(forgot to add my ‘Longhorns Fan’ full disclosure clause – guess I need to add a signature… ;)

IMHO his arm strength is better than adequate, it is excellent when you consider the accuracy he puts on the long balls

but i think the whole point is to separate out accuracy when people are talking about raw arm strength. the point you’re making here is actually the case against relying on arm strength to judge a qb … he may not be able to throw the ball 100mph (a la derek anderson), but at 90mph he’s super accurate.

and i think your longhorns fan-ness shows w/o a disclosure clause…

Works for me. I don’t think there’s any real disagreement here – my main / original point was to question the emphasis on his arm strength as an “issue of concern” – i.e. that it is essentially a non-issue. It sounds like we’re in agreement on that.

BTW – just for fun I went through the video and found 8 plays. Every one of them is a dead strike throw of 40 yards or more (4 of them between 45 and 50 yards). If anyone’s interested:

:57 (57 seconds into the vid) – 45 yards
3:16 – 40 yards
4:45 – 42 yards
5:04 – 48 yards
5:17 – 40 yards
5:43 – 45 yards
5:54 – 42 yards
6:20 – 45 yards

The problem is that the talent descrepancy between Texas and 99% of other college teams never exists in the NFL. The players on the other team are better, bigger, faster, have been playing together longer, and shrink the field and the spots those deep balls need to go in to.

I think most of us have seen enough to believe that Colt’s arm won’t be a huge issue. I don’t think it will ever be “excellent” in the NFL, where there are freaks among freaks who can throw balls through brick walls.

most of us have seen enough to believe that Colt’s arm won’t be a huge issue. I don’t think it will ever be "excellent" in the NFL, where there are freaks among freaks who can throw balls through brick walls

The ability to “throw balls through brick walls” (i.e. arm strength to throw a 70 yard spiral without being able to consistently hit the garage door in the brick wall) simply does not define excellent arm strength as a QB IMHO.
The ability to throw a 40 to 50 yard bullets between the numbers of WRs running full tilt on slant / deep out patterns is my definition of excellent arm strength, and Colt has that ability. Browns fans just haven’t seen it yet, IMHO mainly due to:
1. Lack of talent at the WR position, i.e. getting (say, a few feet of) separation on a long route.
2. Playing his first four games as a rookie with no prior practice with the 1st string going against arguably the four best teams in the NFL, two of them (not arguably) among THE BEST defenses in the NFL.
“I don’t think (his arm strength) will ever be excellent in the NFL”
I just don’t get what basis you have for making this statement? Odd thing is, you aren’t alone – and I just can’t make any sense of it.

I saw a few balls thrown Sunday that looked like they weren’t going to get there (little bit of air, loose spiral) but they did. Right now that’s good enough for me if he’s able to complete the throws he’s asked to complete.

He’s still a very green rookie getting oriented to the NFL in circumstances and a trial by fire the likes of which no rookie QB has ever faced. He will have some rough patches and tentative throws. He’s not superman.
I know I probably sound like (ok, probably am) being biased as a Longhorns fan, but I stand by the points I’ve made about his arm and dispute the whole ‘arm strength’ crap as mostly baseless.

Hey, i’m agreeing with you, I was just pointing out what I had noticed at the game. From my untrained eye it seems Colt is able to complete the passes we need him to.

It really isn’t baseless. Arm strength is overrated, but Colt isn’t great in that area.

From what I’ve seen in college and his short time with the Browns is that he has enough arm strength to get the job done, he’s great throwing on the run, he’s got great leadership and character, he works his tail off, he is a team-first player, and he has very good accuracy. That’s more than the Browns have had in 10 years.

So, solid passes, but won’t rip your head off?

Exactly. The NFL are the freak-athletes of the freak-athletes. If you are not a freak among NFL players that doesn’t mean you aren’t athletic, you just aren’t the top .00000001% of the human population.

He can get the job done, he just might not make a throw where you go “holy s&^*, I can’t believe a football can do that.”

First of all, that “slant” route you are talking about is called a “glance” or a “skinny post”. The “deep out” you are talking about is probably a deep comeback. We have seen Colt throw a few of these routes, and he’s done a pretty good job when he has thrown them.

What I was trying to say is that because the players at Texas are so good and because you only play a defense like Oklahoma’s a few times per year (where the talent level is about equal) that those spaces where he has to put those intermediate routes you are talking about get a lot smaller in the NFL where the playing field is more level between WR and DB. Also, the fact that NFL teams are much faster than college teams means that those WRs are open for less time and those spaces shrink even more.

You don’t need elite arm strength in the NFL, and I really think arm strength is overrated. At the same time, you do need to “throw a 40 to 50 yard bullets between the numbers of WRs running full tilt” as you say. There is a minimum level of arm strength that you do need, and I think Colt is above that minimum.

The basis I have for saying Colt doesn’t have elite NFL arm strength comes from the fact that the ball just doesn’t leave his hand with the kind of zip that it does from players like Michael Vick or a young Brett Favre. Say what you want about them, but when the ball leaves Vick’s hand it looks like he is just effortlessly flicking his wrist and it goes 70 yards in a heartbeat. Colt just hasn’t thrown the ball like that and it has been in his interest to do so at times.

Well, I think we’re in general agreement. ‘Excellent’ is relative and subjective term and the Longhorns fan in me just tends to want to us it in reference to Colt ;-). Last thing I want to do is become an annoying Colt McCoy cheerleader on this board (if I haven’t already).
BTW there are a hell of a lot of sports fans in Austin, Tx who have become Browns fans and followers as of late (if you know Austin, it really is a different world from either Dallas or Houston, and a large percentage of folks in Austin are not / never were Cowboys or Houston fans).

At any rate, I’m looking forward to seeing the Browns develop. I have been incredibly impressed by their team from the top on down and I’ve come to believe in Mangini and Daboll. Ok, there was Stuckey’s mistake and Wright’s coverage misstep on the winning Jets TD, but I think both those guys need to be given a 2nd chance – lets face it the Jets are outstanding on both sides of the ball, and the Stuckey play was not just a fumble, the defender made a great heads up strip on that play.

I was criticizing Mangini earlier for not ‘naming’ Colt, but at this point I’ve come to the conclusion the organization is really pulling things together well and I just want to sit back and let them do their thing. I haven’t been this psyched following an NFL team in a long team.

I am aware of the Austin bubble. Glad we are getting another shade of orange in there. Good luck to you guys as Mack Brown reloads the program, College Football is better when Texas is doing well.

Thanks for the good word for UT. This year has been a shocking collapse for the Longhorns.
1-6 record in their last 7 games – 5 of those were home games. Crazy thing is their win came on the road at Nebraska, the highest ranked team (#8) on their schedule this year.
Mack Brown is a great coach – he’ll bring em back but he’s going to need a couple of great recruiting years and probably going to be a shakeup on the offensive side of the coaching staff.

Agree noJoey. Big time overrated, and accuracy and smarts the most underrated characteristics. Did you see those passes to Watson and Moore? WOW. But seriously, we have to get some guys that get seperation.

many qb analysts, however, maintain that arm strength is the most overrated quality upon which a qb prospect should be evaluated.

DA is a prime example.

Assuming he doesn’t flame out down the stretch, it’ll be interesting to see what McCoy can do after an entire offseason and training camp as the #1 QB getting #1 QB reps.

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