Joshua Cribbs waited all season for a new contract after supposedly being promised a new contract by the old regime of (the Romeo Crennel days). He didn't get it prior to this season because he had to "prove himself" to head coach Eric Mangini and the new regime. Cribbs played his heart out all season long; he was the only reason we were competitive in a few of our games. In the final four games of the season, he and Jerome Harrison were making the highlight reels every week, resulting in the team's first four game winning streak since 1994.
Reports came in that new team president Mike Holmgren was anxious to get a new deal done with Cribbs.
So, how did that go?
"They need to treat him fairly or he'll never play for the Browns again,'' said agent Peter Schaffer. "He will demand a trade and he will walk out of there and they won't see him for the off-season -- they won't see him ever again.''
Schaffer and Cribbs reportedly have considered the Browns' offer of $1.4 million a year an "insult." Quite frankly, after all of the build-up throughout the season, and compared to what other players have received (Devin Hester, $5.45 million), the low-ball offer definitely sounds like an insult. It's also not the type of way you want the Holmgren era to start in Cleveland -- losing not only the most popular player on the team, but one of the most widely-recognized players in the NFL now.
Cribbs also tweeted the following shortly after the reports above were released:
"Thanks everyone, I love playing for the browns & put my all in to it, but it doesn't look good 4me at this point on returning...
I don't believe I made the to do list for the team in 2010...."
Thanks to Roger Dorn for the tip.
Hopefully the team gets their act together and puts together a much more lucrative deal as soon as possible. Cribbs was much more valuable than half of the draft picks in the league last season; seeing millions thrown at players who never even see the field compared to a player who goes all out at several positions should raise a red flag in itself.
It's almost like the following has happened:
-Receive a low contract
-Bust your tail off all season
-Repeatedly be told that you've done well enough to warrant a new deal
-Receive national recognition weekly
-At the end of the season, you're offered a slight pay increase
That's not what Cribbs signed up for, and the Browns' front office darn well knows that. Last season, the excuse could be used that Cribbs did need to impress a new staff. This time around, Holmgren should not be taking the time to evaluate the situation over an extended period of time. If he hasn't seen the impact Cribbs has had on the Browns and against other teams' gameplans, then he's already been too out of touch with football for my liking. I think he's trying to establish himself by making progressive negotiations with Cribbs, but for this special case, the approach is only going to lead to bitterness.
UPDATE (11:45 PM): NFL.com's Jason La Canfora has this update on the Cribbs situation:
“We’re going to formally put in a request for a trade,” Rickert said. “He will not set foot in that facility again. If they had offered even something like $2.5 million per season we could have worked with them, but to me this offer is indefensible.”
Rickert said that team executive Dawn Aponte told him the offer was final and would not change, and that new team president Mike Holmgren was in agreement with her on the offer.
“Dawn said this was it, this was their offer,” Rickert said. “She said it would be 1.4 today, 1.4 in March and 1.4 in August.”
Rickert said he asked the team if they needed or wanted more time to consider things, especially with Holmgren just coming on the job, and that he told Aponte if she did not change the offer or request more time to negotiate by 5 p.m. Wednesday, he was going to take the unusual tactic of making the offer public.
“I didn’t feel like we had any other choice than to let the Browns fans know exactly what was going on,” Rickert said, “and let them know why Josh was preparing to leave.”
0 recs | 611 comments
Even if you throw out Hester and say he is also a number 1 receiver, returners like Roscoe Parrish and Andre Davis are making a good deal more than Josh. He deserves more than this lowball offer.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Wow, so yesterday I was pumped from the press conference. I was all excited and felt good toward the future.
Now, we’re going to lose Cribbs and most likely have to go through another rebuild because I no longer have high hopes of Mangini staying.
I’m already pissed at Holmgren.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
+1
I really can’t believe this. Cribbs is by far our best player, not to mention a fan favorite. Normally I disagree with athletes being picky about how much they make, but this is waaaay too low for Cribbs. Meanwhile, we’re paying DA 8 million/year to sit on his butt from the bench.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
This is not even remotely true.
Yes, the DA contract is awful, but it doesn’t mean that every player that is better than DA (almost everyone) should be paid more.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
Ok, I agree. The best is a bit of an exaggeration. I should’ve said “one of the best”.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Tied for best on the offensive side of the ball?
Chief WaDrew - January 7, 2010
Joe Thomas is far and away better in my opinion. Would be the highest paid player on the team easily if we were giving every player fair market value.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
Yeah, Thomas and then maybe Cribbs (though Mack is coming on strong in my estimation).
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
agreed…i was not a huge fan of keeping mangini but i got pissed off when he let him keep all of his assistants (even though it kinda makes sense)…either way, daboll sucks and this deal is making holmgren look incompetent
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/1/7/1240242/josh-cribbs-its-over-for-me-in
dawgs by nature is mentioned on the whole sbnation.com b/c of the cribbs thing. they say to watch this blog…
also some of the rumors going around are interesting just saying (like carroll going to seattle and being the next butch davis)
bross09 - January 8, 2010
Can we have cribbs guys ? We sorely need a talent like his
broncosfaninphilly - January 6, 2010
This feels FLAG worthy…
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Sure, give us Marshall in return and you have a deal.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
and while we’re at it. We will take Scheffler as well. Give us all of the talented Broncos malcontents, and you guys can field a team of McDaniels’ good soldiers.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Am I the only person who would do a Marshall/Scheffler for Quinn/Cribbs?
Done.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
It’s a personality risk, but Marshall is an ideal fit for the WCO if we are definitely moving in that direction.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
I dunno if we r heading in that direction (daboll is still here) but that is very true. the WC offense was run by shanahan and marshall thrived under it. it emphasizes balance on the sidelines and route running. these things were skills TO and marshall had to make up for their lack of speed. they fit very nicely into the WC system (and that’s why TO thrives much better in a WC system than in another).
bross09 - January 8, 2010
this is unbelievable. i’d be insulted too if i were cribbs. that said he doesn’t have any leverage here, so it doesn’t necessarily bode well for him.
notthatnoise - January 6, 2010
He can hold out and watch the fans light torches. He has plenty of leverage.
danvail - January 6, 2010
And what happens when his replacement breaks some long returns?
Think of Chris Barclay in preseason of couple of years back.
No they won’t be Cribbs, but this is the NFL. Hold out and there are at least ten guys that are ready and willing to take your spot.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
You really think Josh is that replaceable? He’s earned a lot of good will among the fans.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Cribbs is elite. No one will argue that.
But what is the difference between an elite kick returner and a good one? Today we could sign Jerome Mathis who went to the Pro Bowl in 2005 with the Texans.
Replaceable, probably not. Replaced with decent results, easily.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
I don’t think Cribbs is just a KR, and I think we’re still learning his potential. Still, from a purely mercenary perspective, you may be right.
But do Browns fans have years of fond memories based on the performance and class of Mr. Mathis? What did he give us to cheer for in the bleak first part of this year?
The Holmgren Dynasty is about to start off by shooting itself right in the substantial foot here.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
True, Cribbs has given us all good times.
But the Browns are in the football business not the warm fuzzy feelings business.
It sucks, but in the words of Michael Corleone; It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
And it’s bad business to low ball the only substantive team leader this franchise has had in over a decade.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
This will turn the bathroom boycott into an actual boycott.
This is not an overreaction.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Yep.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
2002 New England Pats
Missed the playoffs after winning the Super Bowl the previous season.
Bill Belichick cuts Lawyer Milloy, a captain, 5 days before the season because Milloy won’t re-do his deal. Everyone thought that BB had lost it and the team would turn on him.
They went on to win the Super Bowl.
It is a business.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Nice point
After week 2 of that season every idiot on TV was saying Belicheck had lost the team and there was no way back. Some were saying that he might not last the year.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
Clearly they should have over reacted and hired a czar to blow the team up again.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
And to think… I used to like explosions.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Pats aren’t the Browns and Milloy isn’t Cribbs.
This situation is completely different even if it doesn’t seem that way.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Ok. What about Brett Favre and the Packers?
Think any Packer fans want Favre back right now?
Me neither.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Favre made them turn on him. Favre had character issues with GB, still doesn’t parallel this.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Cribbs “played by the rules” (and went on good faith) and had the franchise pull the rug out from under him.
Favre had the franchise by the balls until they finally made a decision to part ways.
Chief WaDrew - January 7, 2010
They had actually won a recent championship. They had goodwill built up. We are coming off suck. The only goodwill is Cribbs and Harrison and some overachieving replacement defensive players.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
Holmgren trades Cribbs and wins the SuperBowl next year? Deal.
danvail - January 7, 2010
Holmgren trades Cribbs to Miami and they win the supper bowl next year.
deemac3248 - January 7, 2010
superbowl
deemac3248 - January 7, 2010
Reiterating my feelings from elsewhere: I love Cribbs.
But in the end, I root for the jersey and not the person. The Browns cut 80’s legend and local hero Bernie Kosar in ’93, yet fans cheered them on during a playoff run the following season. The same will happen if they part ways with Cribbs.
rolub - January 6, 2010
True
deemac3248 - January 6, 2010
That would be if there is a playoff run.
nosey313 - January 6, 2010
I don’t see that happening to a post-Cribbs Brown’s team for a LONG long time. Now, I’m not saying he’s the only way the team has a chance to make the playoffs in the near future (1-5 years). But, he’s a factor, an asset, something that would really come in handy to a playoff team.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
that is very true…who is going to make plays for them on offense??? they already traded away 2 playmakers.
bross09 - January 8, 2010
There better be a playoff run. For Holmgren’s sake and Lerner’s.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
This.
Much bigger legends have been pushed out by management.
Hell Paul Brown was fired, yet the Browns lasted.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Mike Holmgren = Art Modell ???
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Please don’t use that language here.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
I just threw up a little into my mouth
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
This from the guy with a Hitler reference in his signature. You likey the extreme examples, hmm?
danvail - January 7, 2010
Stirring the pot.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
The Hitler reference is not mine.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Nor is the Modell reference. That one’s on Bernie.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
you completely missed the point on my Hitler remark and read it how you wanted to. seems to be par for your course.
rolub - January 7, 2010
jeeze, its a joke.
notthatnoise - January 7, 2010
No, of course it’s not going to destroy the team. It will however make Holmgren look like a money grubbing moron with no respect for previous performance or personal character. Way to make an impression there, mustache.
Apparently we’ll be going for the a**hole who can win games approach, a la Belichick. Hope he gets that winning record quickly for his sake….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Only an idiot would think that. Holmgren doesn’t get paid more the less the players get paid.
rolub - January 6, 2010
Right, that’s just ridiculous. The money is not coming out of Holmgren’s pocket.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Thanks for the cheap shot. Very classy.
Obviously, Holmgren doesn’t get the extra money that’s not going to Cribbs. It’s clear though that how said money is being spent seems very important here, no?
I can be cheap with someone else’s money, and will still appear to be a cheapskate.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
I didn’t say you were an idiot.
And you took cheap shots at Holmgren, who isn’t here to defend himself like I am.
rolub - January 6, 2010
Ummm…yeah you did.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
I didn’t see it that way.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
I did.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Only an idiot would think that.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Well, then, I guess I’m an idiot.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Golanbatrac’s point has been made.
Quite cleverly, I might add. Bravo.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Quite.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Re-read rolub’s post above.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Look at rolub’s post above. He quoted Relapse and then followed the quote with ‘only an idiot would think that’. Exactly what I just did to you. I can’t see how anyone could not read that as rolub calling Relapse an idiot.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
No, I get that. I was just trying to be funny but I guess it didn’t work.
The reason I didn’t think he was calling RDC an idiot is because I didn’t think RDC said he thought that it would making Holmgren look like a money-grubbing moron, only that other people might think that. And rolub said those people would be idiots. That’s how I saw it, at least, and I think rolub did too.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
I agree that I believe this was rolub’s point, but I understand how it seemed like golanbatrac’s point. Just some confusion that should be all cleared up now, right guys? :)
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
Now, I’m more confused than I was before.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
if i wanted to call someone a name, i’d be a bit more blunt about it.
see: any response of mine to mooncamping.
rolub - January 7, 2010
Oui.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
Si
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I’m good.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
I’m an idiot. :)
Seriously, I do think this situation as it stands is going to make Holmgren look bad to many. But as I said elsewhere here, he can fix it. He’s got the bully pulpit here, and he can say the right things. Time will tell.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
a person who spends their own money spends it much wiser than someone else spending their money…
bross09 - January 8, 2010
Heh. You know what would be bad business for the Cleveland Browns? Pissing off their fanbase by shafting Josh Cribbs. I’ll be joining the boycott.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
agreed…rec.
bross09 - January 8, 2010
Justin Miller (another Pro Bowl returner) is available. And he can play safety. Plus he is from my high school!
TheRealSlimShady - January 6, 2010
Don’t see many other available players wanting to come to Cleveland after the J.Cribbs treatment, what a way for M.H to start.
deemac3248 - January 6, 2010
Because there are a limited number of jobs in the NFL?
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Players will go where the money is. The question here is what the Browns think they are going to do with the money they would be saving by not paying Josh Cribbs the Devin Hester money he thinks he deserves. Maybe they think they have way too many other holes to tie that much money up with a special teams player, even in an uncapped year.
woodsmeister - January 7, 2010
In your mind does that make Justin a beast?
steelerstyle - January 8, 2010
not only this, but the shelf life of special teams players is generally not long. The Browns would be best off re-working the remaining years of the deal rather than extending the current one with a higher base salary (along with some guaranteed money, of course).
Don’t get me wrong; I love Cribbs. I bothered to shell out $80 for his jersey. But if we see the same amazing things he’s done from ‘07-’09 in ‘10-’12, that would be the exception rather than the norm. And extending him beyond that timeframe would be taking a lot of risk on the lower odds.
rolub - January 6, 2010
Exactly.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
But Cribbs has shown he is more than just a special teams player. We haven’t even scratched the surface of what he can offer this team as an offensive weapon. Sure he may never make it as a receiver, but he is a dynamic player and it is misleading to call him a special teams player.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
How do you know that? We tried him as a receiver and that failed. Sure, he can run a few plays in the Flash package but what more can we come up for him? How have we "just scratched the surface? I don’t really see him becoming a big part of our offense in the future, and I don’t think the team does either.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
I feel (can’t say i know because i don’t know anything for certain) that because you can’t say Cribbs as a receiver failed. He spent an offseason working on it while adjusting to a new coach. He had two different QBs, who both sucked and still had the third most yards from scrimmage behind Harrison and MoMass. Also I can’t remember how many times people complained about Cribbs being underutilized this season.
So yes I might not know but I can be fairly certain that Cribbs has more to offer the team than just a special teams player.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I actually don’t think Cribbs was underutilized at all, but I also don’t think of him that highly offensively. Thought he did as much as we could have hoped on offense.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
Most of his yards from scrimmage came by running so I don’t really know what that has to do with his receiving abilities.
As Dorn said, I don’t think he was underutilized. We can’t use him too much on offense because we need him on special teams. He’ll always be a contributor to the offense, hopefully, but I doubt he ever becomes a significant part.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
What he’s done the last few games from a running standpoint is demonstrate elite talent. I struggle to think of other players that can do what he did on the touchdown run.
danvail - January 7, 2010
here’s my two cents:
i think what we saw from cribbs this season is probably close to his peak performance on offense.
He spent an offseason working on it while adjusting to a new coach.its not like last season was his first as a receiver, that’s been his position since his rookie year, its become pretty clear he’s not going to blossom into a quality WR any time soon.
he’s the best at what he does, but he returns kicks and punts. he’s not totatlly replaceable by any means, but its not that hard to find quality kick returners.
notthatnoise - January 7, 2010
the slashed section is supposed to be quoted.
notthatnoise - January 7, 2010
I also don’t see his leverage here. if he holds out, we don’t have any money tied up in him, and he can’t go play anywhere else for 3 years, so the team isn’t really losing anything. Sure, cribbs can make fans mad, but they’ll keep going to games. nobody is giving up football over josh cribbs.
notthatnoise - January 7, 2010
I am pretty sure this is incorrect. If he got a signing bonus, this year’s portion of that signing bonus would be on the cap for us regardless of if he was holding out or not. Doesn’t really detract from your argument, though.
rufio - January 7, 2010
But 2010 is an uncapped year
holmes213 - January 7, 2010
Potentially. But yes.
rufio - January 8, 2010
His leverage is in the fans, the media — all the former player jocks that sit around and analyze and talk football in retirement, a la Primetime, and typically sympathize with fellow players — and his play on the field. He’s not asking for outrageous Hester money; just the fulfillment of a promise that the team has offered him in the past, albeit under different management. He also seems like a guy with good character, he actually wants to play in Cleveland, and he’s a team leader and captain.
Pay da man.
Western Reserve - January 7, 2010
Even worse for Cribbs.
He can sit out until week 8. If he doesn’t return by week 8 he will not receive credit of that season. In other words, they year would roll over.
Think of it like cell phone minutes. They don’t disappear they would just keep rolling over.
I think it was Joey Galloway that did this one season.
He is screwed.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
And Galloway was traded by Holmgren during his long holdout. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that (unless Holmgren can land a couple of firsts like he did for JG).
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Also is he wanting a longer contract or just more money over the life of his current contract. I thought the recent offer didn’t change the years but instead increased the money from 900k to 1.4mil.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
Right.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Barclay is coaching high school football.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
That is my point.
If Josh Cribbs thinks that he isn’t replaceable, he isn’t looking around.
Hell Tom Brady was replaced last season.
T.O was replaced in Dallas this year.
Only Peyton Manning is irreplaceable and that is because he is the teams best player and offensive coordinator.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Drew Brees is probably irreplaceable now, too. The point remains.
rufio - January 7, 2010
How dare you! The ghost of Mark Brunell is angry!
Honestly, I couldn’t have been the only person here who couldn’t believe that Mark Brunell was still in the NFL.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I thought he’d retired, like, 5 years ago.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
+1
rufio - January 7, 2010
I thought he’d
retireddied, like, 5 years ago.danvail - January 7, 2010
Um…Barclay though I love him to death is no Josh Cribbs.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Frankly I surprised that Holmgren didn’t tell Cribbs’ agents that he (Holmgren) hadn’t been in the building long enough to find the men’s room yet and was in the process of trying to find a GM (to handle the contract issues, no the men’s room issue) and to please just wait until a GM was in the house.
That aside, I do think he should get more than $1.4 million, but I really wouldn’t expect it to be too much more than $2 million.
BTW, just to set the record straight, isn’t the $1.4 million roughly double what is in his current contract rather than “barely more,” as the PD article stated?
JustBob - January 6, 2010
1.8 is double. So, no.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Fixed.
rufio - January 7, 2010
To be fair, 1.4 is a 22 percent cut from 1.8. “Almost” is pushing it a little.
Chemo - January 7, 2010
.4 million is nothing in the NFL.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I think you are undervaluing 400k.
North Coast Flea - January 7, 2010
also I might add that the offer is more close to 1.5x his current deal than 2x
North Coast Flea - January 7, 2010
Emphasis on “in the NFL.” 400k is more than I have made in my entire life easily.
rufio - January 8, 2010
.4 million is nothing to Derrick Anderson. Right now, .4 million is almost half of Cribbs’ annual salary.
Chemo - January 7, 2010
Ah. I kept thinking he was only getting something in the $600-700k range.
… multiply by nine, divide by five, add 32, subtract the square root … Okay. Yeah. In the 900k range.
JustBob - January 7, 2010
I believe his salary this year was in that 600-700k range. If you count the signing bonus he already got paid it would be more than that.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Just throwing this out there…… Besides the wildcat formation and the kick returns what does Cribb’s contribute to the team? He is a slot receiver at best and once teams figure out how to stop the wildcat he won’t contribute much to the offense.
With that being said I was playing devils advocate. I personally believe that Cribb’s should be paid for his outstanding play and the low-ball offer is an insult. I hope the Browns will learn from this and conduct themselves with a little more class and respect for its players in the future.
Stdavis9210 - January 6, 2010
First off, yes, the recent “offer” was a lowball one, and Cribbs deserves better, i.e., more.
But people… Holmgren’s been in town for all of a couple days, doesn’t have his GM hired, and we’re 6 months from any mandatory team activities. Cribbs and his agents are posturing now because his 2009 performance is still fresh in everybody’s mind. I don’t blame them, just like I don’t blame Holmgren for not offering him a re-worked 4-year, $24M contract with the ink still wet the minute he stepped off the plane.
rolub - January 6, 2010
There was an article on foxsports claiming that it was a final take or leave it offer from the Browns. I need to look for it.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
i’d like to see that once you find it. this could be very disappointing start to 2010.
brownsMania - January 6, 2010
Foxsports
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
It’s Rickert’s word that Holmgren made this a take-it-or-leave-it offer. While i wouldn’t expect the Browns to put it in those terms, Holmgren’s quote from yesterday’s presser indicate the the two sides are apart right now, but not at a dead-end.
There’s nothing for Cribbs to hold out from until July. Not attending the OTAs would make a statement, yet not be a holdout. If no deal is made by April, then I’d assume the Browns will be under the gun to step up with a larger offer or shop him. Right now? I’m not worried.
rolub - January 6, 2010
How is Holmgren possibly in a position to make last offers right now?
He doesn’t have a real office, he doesn’t know if he has a coach, he doesn’t have a GM, and he’s been in Cleveland for 2 days.
WTF?
rufio - January 7, 2010
Holmgren ought to be savvy enough to see that insulting Cribbs is PR poison, and he should rapidly step up enough to say, “These negotiations are a work in progress
-let’s not get ahead of ourselves.”We’ll see.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Holmgren wasn’t hired to play PR games, he was brought in to turn around the franchise and win football games. If we, the fans, didn’t abandon the team after Kosar was released, it’s not likely to happen over Cribbs. The PR side is over-rated. I don’t want to see Cribbs go, but I don’t want our new team president playing PR games as soon as he gets off the plane.
mich_n_trum84 - January 6, 2010
Do you really think it would take too much time out of the busy offseason schedule of our new czar (whose portfolio is apparently the entire organization) to have a five minute press conference and clear the air on this? I mean, he had time to tell us all how much he’s going to love Cleveland weather….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
Today, when he was meeting with Mangini and interviewing 1 (that we know of) candidate for the GM position, I don’t believe a “five minute press conference” was necessary. He has the rest of the offseason to deal with the players and their agents, right now he should be focused on structuring the front office and filling the voids that he sees there. Remember, he made no promises to Cribbs, he just got here. I believe Cribbs will and should get a significant raise, but he should let the man get settled before throwing a Twitter-tantrum.
mich_n_trum84 - January 7, 2010
I’m not particularly defending the timing and methods that Josh and his agent have used here, although I understand why he’s upset if he really just got told “Here’s the lousy deal, take it or leave it.” I mean, the organization could have told him to wait a couple of weeks until Holmgren got up to speed, etc, so they’re to blame for that as well. Regardless, it’s all water under the bridge now.
I don’t think anything needed done today, but I do think this will be big news tomorrow. I think Holmgren can do a lot to quell that with a very small investment of his time.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
I think in some form it will be addressed whenever the Mangini decision is made. I have trouble believing that it was truly a “take it or leave it” scenario. I think his agents made it that way. They expected a response back, with more money included, the same day with everything else going on? We don’t even know if Dawn Aponte is going to survive with the changes that are likely to come, and she’s the one that these guys are speaking to. I’m shrugging this whole thing off until after the draft, because by then he’ll likely be signed or traded.
mich_n_trum84 - January 7, 2010
You might be right, which I guess is why I want to hear someone from the organization weigh in to make that clear. Holmgren seems the logical choice because he’s got the pull right now, and some straight talk from him would be perfect.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
I guess if I had started with the fact that I think it will be addressed in the “head coaching decision” press conference (thursdayor friday, I would guess) and not in it’s own press conference, we would’ve likely agreed more quickly. I understand why you would want it addressed quickly, because I would too. I’d like a press conference everyday to update us on everything, but that would take away from the excitement and pleasant exchanges like this. I just don’t think they’ll call a separate PC for this.
mich_n_trum84 - January 7, 2010
i am insulted by this offer.
there are only a couple things that holmgren could have done to piss off the fans, and this is one of them (another would be a qb competition, drafting a qb with out 1st rd pick). also isn’t this a call for the gm, not the czar?
by the way when did we (browns fans/org) start calling it the wildcat instead of the flash package?
brownsMania - January 6, 2010
Josh Overreacting
The problem is he put himself in a terrible negotiating position by signing a long term, terrible deal. Anything the Browns give him through 2012 is a pure gift. Josh needs to counter offer, add years to the deal so that the Browns get something out of the re-negotiation. How bout he adds 3 years for $11 million and gets 10 of the 11 up front?
realmccoy - January 6, 2010
How about the most active player on the team. Also, does what he’d done already count for nothing then? What incentive was he given to play as well as he has then?
I’m sorry but completely disagree with you and that line of thinking is total bullshit.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
How about the extension that he agreed to a couple years back? He wasn’t playing for free.
Teams have to be smart. Any team that has paid a player big money for past performances (think Seahawks giving a boatload of cash to Shaun Alexander or the Chiefs doing the same with Larry Johnson) has paid for it on the other side.
I don’t think that Cribbs is the same exact boat as the players I named, but the premise remains. For a lack of better terms, in a long contract, the team is betting on the come. So what he has done only helps in determining whether or not Cribbs can produce those numbers again.
I disagree with your disagreement.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Ring-a-fucking-ding-dong. You beat me to the punch.
Successful front offices pay players for the performance they expect to receive, not for what they’ve done in the past.
rolub - January 6, 2010
I expect more than 1.4 mill of performances from Cribbs though.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Based on this, he should have held out this year. Josh is going to get screwed because he let the bastards string him on year after year. Good guys really do finish last.
That sucks.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Exactly.
And the lesson to be learned is that if you’re a Brown and you want more money, you should hold out, because no matter what you do or how you conduct yourself, Holmgren’s not going to take care of you.
I look for a protracted holdout by Eric Wright at some point in the very near future.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
I think that this is an over reaction.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Wright was tweeting today about how Deion was saying he is Pay Da Man 2 also in need of a new deal. Wright has also re-tweeted each of Cribbs’ posts about contract and money.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Yep. Wright’s been talkin’ for a while now.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Good. I hate to see this happen to my favorite team. But worse is seeing my favorite team’s FO treat players like this.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Every team does this; the Browns are no different. This is a business, and teams get in trouble when the start paying players based on emotion and keeping the fans happy.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Devin Hester.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
They took the kick returning job away from him. He’d probably still be worth at least some of his contract if he was still taking kicks back.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
How about if he was injured even without the extra workload and he hurt me already terrible fantasy season?
rufio - January 7, 2010
He was going down anyhow?
(I actually drafted him too. My receiving core really sucked for much of the season, but I was saved by MJD, Chris Johnson, and Ray Rice. Ended up winning the championship.)
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Wow that is one sweet backfield.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Holy fantasy points did you draft that line up?
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I had the 4th pick in the draft. It went like this: AP, Michael Turner, and…. Matt Forte! (At this point, I was rolling around happy, I’d been eye-ing MJD for awhile, and we drafted in mid-July.) I then managed to nab Chris Johnson with the 5th pick in the second round! (8 man league, reversing snake draft.) The league had a two RB spots, and WR/RB/TE flex so in the third I got Marion Barber. Ended up with terrible receivers, (Dwayne Bowe, Roy Williams). So I traded Barber for Greg Jennings, <useless.
Ray Rice ended up going undrafted, picked him up after week 1, that rest as they say, is history…
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Not bad.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I got 4th in the regular season (drafted forte that bas-) but won the playoffs off the strength of Harrison, Browns D and Austin and Steve Smith.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
My WRs were killer. Problem was I was banking on them and they kept getting hurt. Turner having a bad year was bad, too. Hester was probably my 5th WR. Oh yeah, Owen Daniels going down hurt a little.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I dropped Hester by week 3.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
It does suck, but you forget that he was playing under a contract that he signed in his own free will.
This wasn’t some sort of sweat camp, it was his contract.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
You’re right. This still isn’t a sweat shop. If he doesn’t get a better deal, he should hold out. I hate to say it, but if he does I’d support him.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
I would be lying if I said I didn’t want JC to get every dime he deserves.
But I also realize that he doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than “he should be getting paid more”.
Ask Anquan Boldin how well that works.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
There’s no where near the love for Boldin in Arizona as there is for Cribbs in Cleveland.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Probably not. I doubt that matters.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
But that’s insignificant when it comes to contract negotiations. Teams don’t pay players based on how much the fans love them, they pay them based on their value to the team.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
How twitchy does Lerner get if the fans are burning him in effigy in the parking lot? All it took was one moron with a bone on his head to get him going the last time…
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
If the Browns win 10 games next season and make the playoffs then very few fans are going to care about what happened to Josh Cribbs. Fans want to win, and will always find another favorite player.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
They better win.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Indeed.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Well, we certainly can’t lose any more games for a while…
rufio - January 7, 2010
Hah!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
You wouldn’t wager money on the Browns winning 10 games next season would you? In fact, I’d guess that it’s so unlikely, especially a post-Cribbs Browns team that, it is hardly worth mentioning. Are we bringing in some magical quarterback with the money we’re saving on Cribbs that’s going to lead us to the playoffs?
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
The Browns won 9 games the past two years with Cribbs.
There are 53 players on a team, 11 on the field at a time.
rolub - January 6, 2010
I wouldn’t wager money on the Browns winning 10 games with or without Cribbs. But my point was that fans won’t stop rooting for the Browns because of Josh Cribbs. There have been more well-loved players cut by the Browns over the past 40 years than him. If Holmgren turns this team around, whether next year or in 3 years, then the fans will be happy.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
I see your point in this comment, and agree with it.
I just don’t think a player like Cribbs deserves this. Business or not, and at least let him do his thing elsewhere if you don’t think he’s worth it. But, I guess that much goes against the business end to somehow right? The real logical business decision here is to pay him to sit on the bench for three years. Makes me sick.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
He’s not going to sit on the bench for three years.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Lets hope not.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
I’d rather seem him play for the Steelers or Patriots than ride our bench for even 1 year.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
I will care. It’s not always about winning. I don’t want to be a win at all costs organization.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
Well we have the not winning part covered. Pretty well actually.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Ha. I doubt that.
What “costs” are you talking about? Making a guy uphold his contract — that’s the “cost” you don’t want us to resort to?
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
I’m pretty sure he’s referring to the fact that a lot of us think that making Cribbs uphold his contract is a terrible thing to do to a guy that is clearly worth more.
Did I get it right, Villeslgr?
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Is that what contracts are for?
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Isn’t*
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
A lot of us think a player who we support is being grossly underpaid, due to a mistake he made by signing the contract. Said player has done above and beyond to try and prove he’s worth more. Mostly out of good will, but also with hopes that one day his mistake could be rectified. He deserves it for everything he’s done for this franchise and city.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
I feel like I’m going in circles now.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
As do I. Both sides are too stubborn to agree on anything.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I don’t know if I would say that.
I agree that Cribbs is the best ST in the free world.
I agree that he is underpaid.
See, there is some common ground.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Also, I’m pretty sure both sides accept that the current contract was a mistake.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
I think i’ve been fairly clear in stating that i feel Cribbs is owed more and that I understand he signed a contract and that I’m upset with the fact that the team would offer such a bs lowball offer as if that was a legit effort.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Teams also don’t say they will take care of a guy and then come with a laughable offer. It’s insulting.
I understand the whole you signed a contract, But then don’t make overtures and then offer some bs deal. Really what did you expect Cribbs to do with that offer? It’s almost better if they had just stuck to the we won’t redo your deal.
Villeslgr - January 6, 2010
But haven’t you heard? it’s a business!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
Oh i know it’s business which is why I understand Cribbs made his bed. But I also think it’s bad business the way the team has handled the situation since.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
So do I. Just being a smart ass.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
How much fans love them is a part of their value to the team in terms of creating a team that fans like and want to spend their money on.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
+1
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
+2
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
+1000
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Well, I don’t think players like Cribbs should ever be treated this way. When this shit is looked at from a penny pinching perspective players like him get royally fucked. He’s been nothing but loyal to this city and franchise, after being lied to on multiple occasions. This kind of attitude shouldn’t punished because the FO wants to take advantage of the existing contract to get more than their money’s worth.
He has tremendous amount of sentimental (for lack of a better term) value, which should be accounted for. He loves the city of Cleveland and the city of Cleveland loves him. For example, I’m pretty sure he’s been apart of more autograph signing events than any other player, and their always packed. Everyone usually leaves satisfied. He doesn’t have to do this. He could be a giant douche like Big Ben is to Findlay. I could go on forever with this, but I think you get my point.
Letting this guy go would be a travesty.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
He also runs more charity events than the fucking salvation army.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
So did Braylon?
rufio - January 7, 2010
I am not arguing that Cribbs isn’t one of the really good guys in the NFL.
But you don’t pay players in the NFL because they are nice. This is a business. Paying a ST player more than 1.4-1.9 million is a dumb decision.
When you take the emotion of out the decision it is an easy move. Think of the great kick returners. They don’t last long.
Dante Hall had his last great season at the age of 27 and was out of the NFL at the age of 30. Josh Cribbs will be 27 next season.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
I still disagree. His play alone, even if he was a hermit off the field, warrants more than 1.4 million.
The issue is clearly the contract he’s currently under. Well, I don’t think this is the be-all and end-all, not even close. Really I disagree that it can even be used as a bargaining chip anymore. Sure it was terrible decision to sign it, that much is obvious. But luckily, this league has a way around that. He can demand a trade, or have the franchise force him to ride the bench. I’d hate to see that happen, but would fully understand and support Cribbs decision, if he comes that one.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Damn it all, but obviously so would I.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Yep. Unless he’s asking for some ridiculous amount, Cribbs is in the right here.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
He can’t force a deal. He can hold his breath and demand one, but that doesn’t matter.
What does he get by holding out? If he sits out the entire season he would still have 3 years left on his contract.
He has no leverage other than public opinion. One of those will hold up in court.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Again, I find it disgusting that it’s come to this. “Sorry, guy but you have no leverage! Take our deal or sit for three years!”
Just seems like a big “FUCK YOU” to someone who doesn’t even come close to deserving it.
And is it really worth it to this franchise to pay a guy sitting on the bench for three years, mean while 40%-60% of fans are utterly pissed and disgraced. Or pay him what he’s worth and EVERYONEs happy but some penny pinching assholes who might be late on the next payment for their solid gold humvee.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Al Lerner has been anything but cheap since he has taken over the Browns. Anyone who thinks this will be the same exact person who will be a fan again when they are winning.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Yes. If we know anything about most sports fans it’s that they’re fickle and will root for whoever is helping their team win.
Josh Cribbs may be loved now, but if he’s making $4 million in three years and not performing then fans will want to cut him and find the next big return man. That’s sports.
Anyone who thinks the Browns are going to lose thousands of fans because of this just doesn’t knows sports fans very well.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Obviously as much as we have sucked since 1999, no one in this conversation could be considered a fickle fan.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I’m not calling anyone here a fickle fan, just sports fans in general.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
I thought it was more obvious the last part was a clear exaggeration. Let me clear that up. I never meant to imply Lerner is cheap.
My main point was which is honestly more worth it to this FO and franchise?
A. to pay a guy sitting on the bench for three years, mean while 40%-60% of fans are utterly pissed and disgraced.
Or
B. pay him what he’s worth and EVERYONEs happy
(And for the record, I’m not the kind of fan who’s only going to be a fan when his team is winning, or cries when we’re losing.)
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Lets say that Cribbs resigned for half of what Hester did.
5 million a season.
That could be the difference of adding a pass rusher or resigning Eric Wright.
It just doesn’t make sense.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Or we could cut John St. Clair and Robert Royal (two temps) and come out ahead.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
BAM!
@B19K
Really though, in all seriousness though, if you want to get that hypothetical, who’s to say all Cribbs needed was a decent quarterback? Could be that he isn’t all that bad at another positions. (Actually, I’m not going to argue for something I don’t actually see happening.)
Rather, I’ll state that I highly doubt we’ll be in any real monetary issues soon, especially with an uncapped year on its way. I don’t see Cribbs being “that” difference.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
And we pay the guys to replace them what exactly?
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
/sarc
Royal could be replaced by another practice squad player.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
And we cut Stallworth in order to pay for a quality LT.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
We have a quality LT. And if we cut Stallworth, all of his big signing bonus that we are still responsible for would accelerate on to this next year’s cap number, which would probably give us less cap room than not cutting him.
rufio - January 7, 2010
RT, of course.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
I think only the remaining guaranteed bonus payments would be accelerated. For instance, Stallworth was due a roster bonus last offseason. That number would since be passed and would not affect us cutting him after the season.
Second point is that this year is the time to cut the excess fat and take the accelerated cap hits since it is likely to be an uncapped year. Cap hits won’t matter, and we can free ourselves of the actual financial committment.
I can say with near certainty that Stallworth will likely be gone.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
No, signing bonuses are prorated over the duration of the deal. 6 mil signing bonus (paid in year 1, upon signing) on a 6 year contract counts at 1 mil/year on the cap.
If you cut that player during year 3, years 4, 5, and 6 of that signing bonus are accelerated, so that would be 4 mil instead of 1 on the cap—only concerning the signing bonus. But yes, years 1 and 2 of that signing bonus that had already been accounted for would not count again since they were already on a previous cap.
I do not believe future roster bonuses would be accelerated, as they would not have to be paid. Not sure, though.
Fair point on the capless year. I forgot about that. This would be the year to do just what you suggest.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Sorry I misspoke, but agree. I meant remaining bonus allocable counts against the cap.
Roger Dorn - January 8, 2010
The fact that there will be no cap still trumps everything I said.
rufio - January 8, 2010
This is the year to take cap hits if the cap doesn’t get put in place. We could see a lot of quality, but overpaid players end up being cut.
Roger Dorn - January 8, 2010
I was fairly certain Cribbs wasn’t asking for that much. Also if there is no cap, this argument holds no wait.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I have still yet to hear what Cribbs is asking for.
I am assuming it is in the 4-5 million a year range.
It has to be pretty far from the 1.4 million for his agents to go to the media IMO.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
They said 2.5 was negotiable.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
rufio - January 7, 2010
3 million for a kick returner is insane.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I don’t have the link but it had what a bunch of other “returners” make and they were all more reasonable than 5 mil. I don’t know why you would assume Cribbs is trying to take the team to the cleaners. I thought it was fairly obvious he is just seeking just compensation which 900k isn’t.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I kept hearing Devin Hester as a comp.
Hester got 10 million a season.
Just a guess, I could be way off base.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Well 10 mil. is insane.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Extremely.
I hit the wall for Cribbs at about 3 mill.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Cribbs is not asking for Hester money. My guess is between 3-4 million part of which could be incentives.
I would like the team to be in the 2-3 range, maybe closer to 2.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
This comment is pretty stupid. When you’re an UDFA, given a starting spot on a football team and offered a long term deal from an NFL franchise, of course you’ll sign it. How was he supposed to know he’d be such a dominating player? The rest of your comment just doesn’t make sense.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
That wasn’t Cribbs’ first contract with us.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Disgusting. That’s the way I’d describe how Cribbs is and has been handled so far. Absolutely disgusting. I will be sick to my stomach for a long time if he doesn’t return. I already don’t feel well about this.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Call me crazy, but what is so insulting about 1.4 million?
We are talking about a guy who still has 3 years left on his contract.
We are also talking about a guy who had every chance in the world to be a number 2 WR this season and did nothing with it.
I admire that Josh came in and played his ass off this season.
So maybe someone should tell Cribbs that the same agents that are calling this offer insulting are probably the same agents that told him signing a 7 year extension was a good idea.
I would love to hear what number Cribbs wants.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Well, to us, it’s amazing. But to Cribbs, in his profession, and also him being the most dominating player in his position, it’s chump change. How would he know how dominating he’d become when he signed that contract? He was never a WR in college and it makes sense he couldn’t play it, but he showed his abilities on ST and Flash package. And don’t think that because Cribbs is so humble that he’s being worked by his agents. The man probably wants money also.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
That is why you don’t sign a 7 year deal. He wanted the long term security of a 7 year deal, well this is the downside. It’s a bitch, but it’s the deal he signed.
And he has proven it this year. He is an amazing ST player. Nothing more. 1.4 million dollars a year sounds right to me.
He wanted money when he signed a 7 year deal also. Once again, that is the risk that Cribbs and his agents took. Just because he has exploded doesn’t mean that the team HAS to rework his deal with three years left.
The fact that they have offered him a raise to 1.4 million is far from an insult.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Fair enough.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
That is not what I see when I watch games. Also we had actual receivers whose sole jobs are to play receiver and they didn’t do much either, while Cribbs gave us field position, made tackles, ran some wildcat/flash, played receiver.
That is not “nothing more.”
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
No, what you described is a special teams player who took 5 snaps on offense.
A really, really good one, but still a special teams player.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Cribbs doesn’t call the plays. There was much uproar about him being underutilized on offense. I’m not calling the guy a Randy Moss but to say he is nothing more than an amazing special teams player sounds like an understatement to create some sort of evidence for your point.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
This.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
He has had the opportunity. He was the starting WR opposite Braylon coming out of camp.
The fact that he was passed by a rookie and a handful of crap speaks volumes.
I get that you love Cribbs, as do I, but you can’y go around and act like he is a great WR just waiting to be unearthed. He has had chances to do so. You can blame it on the QB, but that didn’t kill MoMass.
And don’t give me the play calling crap. The first two weeks when Cribbs was the starter Quinn threw the ball 35 and 31 times. Cribbs caught 7 passes for 32 yards. He went on to catch 13 passes the final 14 games.
He is a great special teams player, should be a lock for the Pro Bowl for his coverage alone. But to pretend that he is even a decent WR is incorrect.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I don’t love any player I just get the impression that you are undervaluing what he has offered and can offer to the team as an offensive player. I’ve never acted like he was a great WR waiting to be unearthed I’ve repeatedly stated that it is understatement to label him nothing more than a great special teams player.
Mass was a college WR drafted to play receiver. They were both utilized in different ways in the passing game.
Playcalling. Flash/Wildcat not Wr sets is what I referring to.
I’m not pretending he is any type of receiver. He offers us opportunities to do things on offense, the only reason I brought up WR was to point out how we got crap from that position and that Cribbs provided us more offense than anyone except Harrison and Mass.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I am in agreement, I think Cribbs is a bad WR. I also think what we saw of him this year offensively is about as much as we can hope for. Do not think he was underutilized on offense.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
Well, the first two examples you mentioned involved special teams plays so that didn’t really help your point. And he didn’t play receiver very well; the play of our other receivers doesn’t take away the fact that he’s not a good receiver and he’ll most likely never be one.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
I was stating he’s not just an amazing special teams player. He is a game changing special teams player along with the other things he offers on offense.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Why will he most likely never be one? He was 4th on the team in catches.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Of the worst passing offense in the NFL.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
The worst passing offense which is trying to determine how much he is worth to them.
Forget it. Cribbs just returns kicks because obviously that’s all he does on the team.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Oh come on, nobody said that. You don’t need to take it to the opposite extreme just because you’re upset.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
Bernie said that.
I’m not upset nor taking anything to the extreme, I was being facetious and quoting Bernie. My whole point has been he is not just a special teams player. Maybe I sidetracked the discussion by stating that I felt he could have been used more and that he still might have something to offer as a receiver, but my point was and still is that the above quote is an understatement of what he gives to the team.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
He’s has several years to try to become a good WR. He hasn’t yet. He’s 26. He isn’t particularly good at catching the ball or running routes.
He can be a bigger part of the offense, but it would be out of the wildcat, as a RB, catching screens, and otherwise getting the ball easily (easy catches or handoffs) and getting a chance in space.
He could play a bigger role on offense, he has earned his money as a STer to this point. No one should be paid based on what they could do. If Cribbs wants what he has been worth thus far, it should be well under 3.2 million.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Actually different agents than he had at the time of that original extension.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Ownage. Compliments of the Dorn.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
No, didn’t mean to own because I thought the same thing earlier until I read the foxsports article I linked above. If it were the same agents then those guys shouldn’t be allowed to say a word about this.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Good point that I didn’t know.
Too bad he didn’t hire this guy from the start, he may not be in this situation.
Thanks Dorn.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Yea, I am in agreement. It really feels like the root of this ongoing problem was signing a terrible, terrible extension.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Yes, but (these are probably my emotions talking) but I feel that the FO should give Cribbs a chance to fix his mistake. But then that opens the floodgates to players like Wright.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Do you think when a player signs a big contract then plays terrible he would give the team a chance to fix their mistake by resigning for less money? Of course not.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
That’s absurd.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
exactly Brad’s point.
rolub - January 6, 2010
I actually put a disclaimer on my comment refraining anyone from doing that, but it didn’t follow into my post.
I, personally, don’t think the absurdedness goes both ways.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
How is one absurd but not the other? What is the difference?
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
The players put themselves in harms way every time they go out on the field to play for said team. The FO does not risk their limbs and brain every Sunday.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
“Ah! Carpel tunnel from signing these contracts! GM is such a dangerous job! Concussion ensuing!”
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
I don’t really see how that matters.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
That’s why some people feel the “absurdedness” (I’d rather use absurdity, but ah well), does not go both ways.
Often times where talking about the same range of money made by FO jobs and players, sometimes much less. One job is more dangerous than the other.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
The FO risks their jobs and their families’ standards of living. If they mismanage the cap, they will be out on the street, too.
If the players want to be taken care of in retirement, they should negotiate for better treatment of retired players. They know the risks of playing football.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I fully understand that. The difference of opinion lies in whether the jobs and contracts are similar enough to compare and reverse roles.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
it’s not whether they’re similar or not that matters; the two roles are mutually exclusive and depend on the success of each other for their own success.
rolub - January 7, 2010
I am sure that JaMarcus Russell is just dying to give Al some of his money back.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
True.
I bet JaMarcus kills it in the champagne room.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
No they would get traded or cut.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
It still costs the team money.
That is why JaMarcus still has a job.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
And because Al Davis is really dumb.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
It doesn’t cost the team money, exactly. It costs them cap room, which is a limitation that the teams manufactured against themselves.
Chemo - January 7, 2010
He has a job because his money is guaranteed and Al is past old.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
No, but the team would cut him.
Chemo - January 7, 2010
Yep.
7 years. Might as well have been for 70.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
And guess why they’re pounding the table so hard to rework a deal?
Because they don’t get paid until Josh gets a new deal. Josh’s old agent(s) take the cut on the original deal. Right now, these two agents are basically working pro bono.
rolub - January 6, 2010
I like to call that the Drew Rosenhaus method of getting paid.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
A look at some 2009 salaries:
Ryan Pontbriand 4,975,000
Antwan Peek 2,433,333
Shaun Smith 2,100,000
Steve Heiden 1,750,00
Dave Zastudil 1,676,720
Phil Dawson 1,470,000
Jason Wright 946,220
Nick Sorenson 808,125
Darnell Dinkins 681,668
I believe Pontbriand’s salary includes some impossible escalators (or at least I hope).
http://www.sportscity.com/NFL/Cleveland-Browns-Salaries
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Pontibrands contract is full of log bonuses so they can be used as cap management.
I would guess that half of those other salaries have some of the same.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Yea, Pontbriand has the built in “incentives likely to be earned” which will in fact not be earned and accordingly credit to the following year’s cap. It’s a little game a lot of GM’s play with certain types of players to get additional cap space. My assumption is that Pontbriand makes less than Cribbs near the minimum.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
If anything why not up the base to 1.4 and offer incentives to Cribbs. Not that he would take it, but atleast it would give the team a chance to reward him over what his current contract is while challenging him to earn more money on the field.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Dawson’s contract is similar, if reports were accurate and my memory is accurate now.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Whoever Cribbs’s agents were are idiots.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
This is true.
Not Holmgren’s or Mangini’s problem.
As cold as that sounds.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
So continue to rip him off, it’s not their problem right? It sounds like we’re even willing to except that they know he’s underpaid, but don’t care about whats fair, because a contract is a contract.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Once again, when players are overpaid they don’t ask to renegotiate a lower contract. Does that player not care about what’s fair?
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
I hardly even consider the situation comparable. Perhaps because I’m biased, or perhaps because I’ve taken note of everything Cribbs has between now and then, and deserves to be an exception to that logic, if that makes any sense. I don’t see the guys in the front office going out of their way to do the kind of things Cribbs does on and off the field. And just for the obvious reason of differing occupations.
I really just don’t think it’s a proper analogy at all.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
But the player gets cut, and then they don’t make anything.
Chemo - January 7, 2010
Exactly. The reverse only works if the money is guaranteed as it is in baseball.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
this.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Don’t make anything is a bit off base.
They get to keep every cent of a signing bonus that is based on X amount of years of a contract.
Ask DeAngelo Hall about signing bonuses.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
They also can go get paid somewhere else if they are really worth it.
rufio - January 8, 2010
I guess I look at it like this.
Cribbs took a gamble. He didn’t know he would become the best ST in the NFL.
But he took the bird in the hand. He signed a 7 year contract.
He became the best ST in the NFL. It is simple risk and reward. No one held a gun to JC’s head. He made a decision as a grown man.
If the Browns want to give him more money, great. If they don’t, then that is their prerogative. Cribbs and his former agents made the bed, don’t bitch about it now.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Despite everything that’s happened? The tremendous play, the promises, the list goes on and on…..
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Cribbs led wildcat for a team that couldn’t move the ball if their life depended on him for a reason. If the same is true next year, then sure! PayDaMan! I think Holmgren is probably fixing to put together an offense that can move the ball. Which will mean less wildcat. Which will mean Cribbs won’t be worth as much next year as he was this year.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
“Carnation Instant Field Position” is priceless. (The good kind of priceless.)
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Really? I’d disagree… Without looking into the stats, I’m going to guess there are plenty of playoff teams that don’t have near the kick returner JC is.
They’re in the playoffs.
With our priceless instant field position, we are 5-11.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Imagine where we would be without the field position. We had basically two weapons all year: Cribbs and Harrison.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
It is still less valuable than either offense or defense.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I’m not disputing that. I’m just saying it is magnified when you have neither offense nor defense.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I guess, but if we only have X dollars to spend under the cap, they’d be more valuable if invested on offense or defense.
If the choice is simply good special teams or bad special teams, it’s obvious. I don’t think the choice is that simple.
rufio - January 7, 2010
We’d be alot worse off than we were, that’s for sure. I think it was said in this thread somewhere before, and I agree with it, that you don’t pay someone for what they did but for what you expect them to do.
Like I said, the assumption is that we will have a VASTLY improved offense from last year, so Cribbs and Harrison will no longer be our only weapons.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Just because Josh can’t singlehandedly put us in the playoffs doesn’t diminish his value.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
Just when things started to look up for the Browns, then this happen. Hopefully, this was not the last offer.
deemac3248 - January 6, 2010
Not only does Cribbs deserve a better contract, but the way he has handled himself during this whole two year, drawn out negotiation made me want him to stay with Browns even more. He could have acted like a football diva, but he instead consistently played his heart out for the team, the city, and the fans. I hope we don’t start the Holmgren era by losing Cribbs.
BiggieBrown - January 6, 2010
I would really hate if Cribbs left. I would be half tempted to boycott the Browns next year. However, I would think that anything over 3 million a year might be excessive.
jerseywahoo - January 6, 2010
I agree but 1.4 isn’t enough.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Something reasonable might be nice. And why even offer 1.4, are you trying to insult the guy? What kind of thought is behind that?
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
DawgPoundMike and the rest of the whiny, fickle fans are getting exactly what they asked for. Blow it up again Mike!
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Argh. I pray that you’re wrong.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
Negotiations= I make an offer, you make counter offer…. etc. etc. etc.
The Browns have the negotiating advantage, (he is under contract) they offered him something, and the counter was….. go to the press.
The only leverage he has is to make a buncha fans cry bloody murder.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
Which they will and that’s why they asked him to keep it quiet.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
I think the timing is important here, I am not going too far out on a limb thinking that Cribbs may have spent beyond what he was making. I still think the Browns have the advantage and will get him to sign a deal.
Holding out does not help the bottom line of either party.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
No it doesn’t and if he spent it all, it was for charitable donations.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Yea I know, was not making a judgment on what the guy was spending on, just that he had spent it.
Of course the club is going to low ball the first number.
The choice was…. negotiate during the winter/spring, or push for something now…
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
Right
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Why would you think this? What about Cribbs would make you think he was living beyond his means, especially since the team had initially told him they would not redo his deal.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Something he said about taking the return teams to the pro bowl, can’t specify the actual quote…. but my evidence is….. new team president takes office on a Tuesday, and his representatives make hissyfit over the teams first offer a day later
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 7, 2010
Didn’t hear about that, but I thought most guys did stuff for their supporting cast.
Also I have to find the link but it had detailed how the sides had talked and then the team offered no response to his reps. Obviously that’s coming from the agents so grain of salt.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I can vouch for taking the return team to the Pro Bowl. I don’t remember where, but I read it.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
And the fact that this team could really use a player of his caliber taking kicks and punts back.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
Actually I thought they went to the team but got no response.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Now this is what i call blowing shit up!
deemac3248 - January 6, 2010
haven’t you heard, there’s nothing left to blow up!
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
In fairness to your boy, the 1.4 million proposal apparently was the final offer by Mangini and carried over by Holmgren.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Golanbatrac just read that, followed by his head exploding all over his Mangini poster.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Well, it had to be Mangini’s fault somehow…it always is.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
It could be false, but that’s what I read. I say this as a Mangini supporter as well.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
I said that tongue-in-cheek. I didn’t mean to imply that you were making anything up.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Yea I know, I was just acknowledging that it could be BS.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Not everything, just our offense, defense, and hurricane Katrina.
No biggies.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Ha!
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Cribbs’ contract was supposed to be for $3.1 million, but Mangini deducted $1.7 million for taking 1000 bottles of water from the team facility over the course of the season. Hence the $1.4 million offer.
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Ten bucks says this makes it into Shaw’s column tomorrow.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
I wouldn’t bet against it!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 6, 2010
“According to an unnamed source . . .”
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
This made me spit out my coke.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Rec.
I think he also had to pay for the gas to the camp earlier this year.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
He actually had to pay for the gas on the bus trip.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Haven’t you heard? Mangini was fired long before this.
deemac3248 - January 7, 2010
this is embarrasing for the browns organization….if they won’t pay you josh go somwhere that will. he is at least worth hester level money and they didn’t even offer close to that. screw the browns if this gets messed up its inexcusable. this is one instance where i will side with the player in terms of what he wants money wise.
Cavs4 life - January 6, 2010
He is under contract!
They offered him a raise, he said no… that is his prerogative… he can take his services to anyone… except another NFL team.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 6, 2010
Agreed with points that he’s under got his contract….
but come on, we’re the Browns & he’s the one shing face of the franchise. If he was 33 or a cancer in the locker room, it would be a different story, but he’s not…yet…. This guy makes every team prepare specifically for him each week & can change a game in one play. You pay these guys period.
strongsafety - January 6, 2010
just a side note, Cribbs agent was my high school principle (he still is the principle). He is also the agent of Rex Hadnot,Brandon McDonald and Joe Thomas
The Brown Note - January 6, 2010
Thomas should hold out as well. He’s worth more than his rookie contract.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
I feel that he can retire as principal. That doesn’t make sense…
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
hes a small time agent but he is still making bank
The Brown Note - January 6, 2010
Cribbs updating his Twitter page.
rolub - January 6, 2010
FUN FACT: Cribbs is following Donte Stallworth.
rolub - January 6, 2010
Stallworth has twittereah.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
There are a lot of Browns and NFL players following Donte.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Hopefully as a reminder to not drink and drive.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Hope so. They should put his twitter in commercials.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
or take steriods
deemac3248 - January 7, 2010
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Sadly, sounds about right.
Simmsinns - January 6, 2010
I went to Eric Wright’s page.
I am now at least 7% dumber.
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
Literally, this was great.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Eric Wright is hilarious. Check out his twitpic account.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
Dude, what is it with him and shoes?
Bernie19Kosar - January 6, 2010
He’s gotta have like 1800 pairs. Dude’s nuts.
he’s giving away two pair of game used cleats on twitter in the coming weeks too.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
I hope they’ve been gold bonded.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Really? I follow every Wright tweet and somehow didn’t know that. I really am not able to decipher what he is saying 90% of the time.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
Here’s the cleats he’s giving away:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/54846499.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1262841463&Signature=sEZr%2FykoW1hRXWc8E%2FYlbRPjTO0%3D
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
all i can say is this… if mangini is fired and cribbs walks its going to be very hectic for holmgren to say the least. in another thought if the brownies win regardless all is forgiven. its the nature of the biz. no one cares who is around as long as the team is winning thats the bottom line. If the Browns win 10+ games next year (hypothetically speaking of course) no one would care if mangini is on the sideline nor if its cribbs returning kicks or pistol pete. its all about what the team does on the field that matters. so until next season starts why worry about the politics. We can’t control it anyway. Its the game we care about not the contracts.
Cavs4 life - January 6, 2010
Cribbs is under contract
The dude cant walk, and he has no leverage. He actually shot himself in the foot by signing a multi deal after only one season.
AirNorval - January 6, 2010
…you’re extremely late.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Yeah well sorry
I want someone to explain to me exactly how this guy thinks he has any sort of leverage at all
AirNorval - January 6, 2010
Media and fanbase backlash is his best bet…which is why his agent took it public almost immediately after the season.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
I understand that
But do Browns fans really think the new front office will cave? For the record I love Cribbs, I think he deserves 4 times the money. But for every underpaid guy there is an overpaid one. Its business, and he boned himself. He really is SOL.
AirNorval - January 6, 2010
I am not sure. I have always had a suspicion that Josh wanted far more than the team would be willing to give, but even 1.4 seems pretty low to me.
Roger Dorn - January 6, 2010
1.4 is very very low
But he’s under contract for like 3 more years at less money than that. He has no leverage, all he can do is cry to the public; I feel sorry for the guy. Why he signed a 5 or 6 year deal after a good rookie season I do not know. That was retarded. All he had to do is play on his rookie deal, and in a year he could have gone UFA and been paid.
AirNorval - January 6, 2010
Well, now his agents are putting in a trade request.
So, I suppose it’s over.
SpecialBrownie - January 6, 2010
Trade requset
Haha thats a joke, the Browns literally own Cribbs; and the best thing about him is him production per dollar. He’s worth more than 2 first rounds picks if you think about his skill set and the money he’s making.
The Browns wont move him; they’ll just laugh when he doesnt show up for OTAs.
AirNorval - January 6, 2010
Will they still be laughing when the fans chant for Cribbs at every single home game.
golanbatrac - January 6, 2010
You really think
That he’ll sit at home and forfeit his money?
AirNorval - January 7, 2010
The same fans that chanted for Bill Cowher for three seasons?
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
One year.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Okay.
The same fans that chanted for Bill Cowher for one season?
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Yes. And that season ended with a fired GM, a fired coaching staff, and a complete rebuild. The fans are fickle and Randy is twitchy. Fan pressure could very well force the issue.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
If the fans are that fickle, then screw it, move the team to LA.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 7, 2010
Go root for Buffalo.
/sarc.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I doubt he'd sit out
He would have to be smoking crack to even try
AirNorval - January 7, 2010
Really? Do you know how many players have requested a trade but never ended up being traded?
Buckeye Brad - January 6, 2010
Well, considering how easy they did it to K2 and BE, I’m not keeping my hopes up.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
K2 and BE
Were about to go UFA right?
Cribbs is under contract, and a rather good one at that
AirNorval - January 7, 2010
Edwards is a FA (depends on the labor situation on whether or not it is RFA or UFA) and K2 was making noise about a new deal which he got in Tampa.
P.S. No one on this site uses the subject line. Just a heads up.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
k
What I meant is, K2 and BE were on relatively short deals when they were moved correct?
I wanted to point out that their situation isnt like Cribbs because he is under a relatively long term deal right now.
When you trade a player you trade his contract, therefore a player’s value is contingent on his skill set and contract.
Meaning Cribbs’ value is through the roof.
AirNorval - January 7, 2010
I agree with you.
I still like the Denver idea.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I think we all just need to take a chill pill (ESPECIALLY Josh Cribbs and his agent). Seriously? We don’t have a GM yet. We don’t have a head coach picked yet. We don’t know much of ANYTHING right now. It would probably be the dumbest thing ever for us to shell out 2.8-3.5 mill at this point. I mean come on back once we have a head coach in place and assistants in place, but until then no one really KNOWS how Cribbs will be used. What if the coach doesn’t use a wildcat formation? If that ends up being the case, there’s no way in hell I want to be paying that kind of money to someone who just gives the team good field position and scores a touchdown every now and then.
So I hope Cribbs and his agent need to just relax and see what happens in the next week or two.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Uh… I meant to say I hope Cribbs and his agent have the sense to just relax and see what happens in the next week or two.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Didn’t Cribbs say that Jim Brown told him to just play and everything would be solved? A person from the actual FO told him this and now the FO really isn’t holding up their part of the deal that was promised to Cribbs through Brown. Right?
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Is Jim Brown a member of the FO or a really famous dude that just keeps showing up every day?
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
He’s considered a FO adviser and has influence over Learner. I’d say he has some FO pull.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Doubtful. I’d say they gave him a special title because he was a great part of this team’s history but he probably has very little influence on anything.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
Rec for a true lol
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
I think he’s our mascot. Thank God they quit the business with the flaming hula hoops and the trampoline. It scared me every week thinking the poor guy was gonna break a hip.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Cribbs:
How can a Browns fan do anything stick up for this guy?
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Someone should tweet Cribbs this page ;)
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
DO IT!
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
It might be a little hard to navigate at this point.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
True.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
My gosh. Really? I love Cribb’s game on the field, but I think he’s going a bit over the top. It’s 3 days after the end of the season. We don’t really know who’s going to be doing any coaching next year with the Browns, really.
Personally, I don’t buy the BS his agent is feeding us that the FO isn’t willing to budge on 1.4 mill. They just need to wait a little bit.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
This has merit. I’m just hurt because Cribbs is honestly my hero and think he deserves more.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
+1, again.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
For sure. Cribbs is my favorite player in the NFL. I really hope a deal gets done. I might cry if it doesn’t.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
You might be right. You might be wrong. Maybe the FO should respond and give us their side.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
I agree with this. Let’s hope it happens sooner rather than later.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Yeah that seems kind of iffy to me.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Cribbs:
OK, this is a little ridiculous. Anyone else feel like he’s going over the top trying to lobby for public support? No, this mess is NOT making you hungry. The fact that it is 12.30 and it is lunch time is making you hungry.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
I agree. Every single thing mentions the situation somehow.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
I am in support that he is starting to become a very large twitter baby who has a case of twittereah. I still support him, but now he’s getting annoying.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
“Taking a dump….ughhh this mess has got me constipated…”
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I did not need that visual.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
“Right now,
MugatuJosh Cribbs is so hot, he could take a crap, wrap it in tin foil, stick fish hooks on it and sell it to Queen Elizabeth as earrings!”Maury from Zoolander– Josh Cribbs’ agentshep615 - January 7, 2010
Agreed, and rec’d.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Not sure if someone else already posted the link to Cribbs’ twitter page; here is it:
http://twitter.com/JoshCribbs16/
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
With Cribbs’ agents wanting to go public, I bet this would be the time that they’d actually give us some exclusive quotes too if I had their contact information.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
The one poster said his Alma Mater principal is Cribbs’s agent. Contact info found.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Oh yea
They will be whining to anyone who will listen, the problem for him is its futile
AirNorval - January 7, 2010
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/01/josh_cribbs_and_agents_insulte.html
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/01/06/cribbs-agent-no-choice-but-to-demand-a-trade/
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
Are you neutral or on our “support Cribbs not the business” side?
If you’re on our side, there are cookies and punch in the corner. Please mingle.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I don’t like the whole “pimp it up, then low-ball him offer.” We knew the type of deal Cribbs wanted; why would Holmgren even address his situation a few days ago as if everything was going to be settled, no problem? I’m supporting Cribbs, of course.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
Holmgren’s approach yesterday also took me by surprise with how it was handled today.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Right. BTW, I thought the tone of the front page story (top of this page) conveyed that I was for supporting Cribbs, just to re-affirm my position.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
i thought it was pretty clear.
you guys enjoy your cookies and punch. i’m grilling steaks and pouring GLBC Dortmunder Gold on our side.
rolub - January 7, 2010
Good point. Today’s news seems very disconnected from that press conference! Why the disconnect?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
Jokes on you.
I peed in your punch.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Ha!
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
The three players mentioned in that story, Sproles, Ginn and Hester, are all major players in their teams offense.
Ginn is so over paid that there is real discussion that he could be cut this offseason.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Off-subject: Hester is not much better than Ginn. Both are not very good receivers, both have trouble running routes despite blazing speed, neither have much for hands either.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
And neither are team leaders.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Correct.
Chicago signed a horrible deal with Devin Hester. They signed a KR to WR money.
It is the exact thing the Browns are trying to avoid.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
Except that he doesn’t even play KR anymore, which makes no sense to me.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
When he signed that deal he was still a KR.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I’m aware, I’m was just trying to point out that moving a your clear best KR from the only position he plays well, is just stupid (on the Bears part).
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
He was also a receiver in 2007.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Not really.
Hester had 20 catches in 2007.
Cribbs had 20 catches in 2009.
I wouldn’t call that a WR. I would call that a KR that a team is trying out as a WR.
Then before the ’08 season, Hester was signed to a 4 year, 40 million dollar extension.
His situation is almost the exact same as Cribbs.
Bernie19Kosar - January 8, 2010
I was just stating that he was a receiver in 2007 because that was the year they switched him from defense to WR.
Villeslgr - January 8, 2010
Yeah… I think for that reason I wouldn’t get too over-excited about this offer if I were Cribbs. In truth, I don’t know that Cribbs will be used the same next year as he will be this year. Especially if we have someone proficient at QB. I think alot of his wildcat success this year was due to the fact that it was really the only offense we had. I think his stock is actually about to fall, because I expect the ball to be thrown alot more and with more success next year than this. And I expect someone besides BQ or DA will be the one doing the throwing.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
This is the link i was looking for. Earlier it had a copy of an email his agents had sent.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
This is just the beginning
Negotiation by press might turn out bad for both sides if they aren’t careful.
Cribbs does need a raise or maybe coupons to Applebee’s for an excellent season.
cadfile - January 7, 2010
Applebee’s is disgusting. All their food is pre – cooked and frozen.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Their fries aren’t too bad.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
They come in a cool circular green bowl.
Chris Pokorny - January 7, 2010
Haha! Their sampler is sweet because it comes on an awesome plater.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I like the food, but their booths are too small.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
garlic mashed potatoes are pretty good, are you telling me they are frozen ahhcck!
Red-Right-88 - January 7, 2010
Oh, I’ll still go and eat there, just with a disgusting look and a low tip.
Call me a hypocrite.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Man don’t lowball the servers just because the food isn’t good! And you want to give Cribbs a new deal? Tip based on service, not bad decisions management or company brass made.
And if your pizza delivery boy/girl was late, it probably wasn’t their fault.
/former worker for tips rant
rufio - January 7, 2010
I knew someone would work a Cribbs rant in. And I understand the za boy one. I’m surprised most make it on time in the first place!
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Seriously, every pizza boy who isn’t an idiot knows how to find your house/work. You can tell if they are too stupid to find you.
They usually don’t make the pies, and they can only leave once they are done. Once you leave, there is close to nothing you can do to speed things up. Maybe you speed a little and you make an extra red light because of it, and that’s probably 30 seconds. If they were more than 5 mins late, there was probably nothing they could do. They weren’t doing donuts in the parking lot during lunch rush.
And if your name is John or Steve or Jane or Mary and you work at Huge Industry in a Enormous Building, Inc. include your last name or cell phone with your order, because no one knows who John is.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Are these personal examples?
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Absolutely. That job ruined me. It also fed me for a year in undergrad.
Seriously, people who worked at Time Warner Cable’s ginormous buildings would leave their name as “John” and then not answer their phone. And then they would be absolutely irate that I was late.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I work as a retierment home dishwasher. Every freaking old person thinks that I’m the reason their food sucks. It’s ruining me. But it is also getting me through undergrad.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
They spit in your food. I just thought you should know that. You might be thinking, “Well, the one I go to is…” NO! They spit in your food.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
That was awesome.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
And by spit, I mean the past and present tense. You’ve eaten spit food, and will in the future if you go back to that same Applebees. (I know a lot of people in the restaurant business.) Sit-downs are worse, especially the ones that don’t require very skilled workers (i.e. pre-cooked, frozen, re-heat meals).
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
That’s pretty much every chain.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Moral of the story is: TIP WELL, despite service or quality.
If you have trouble with that, don’t think of it as a tip, think of it as a bribe, THEY control your food.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
I always tip well, but it’s usually because I’m too lazy to do math. Also I’ve never had service where I’ve felt that I would be cool leaving a shitty tip.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Whenever someone either isn’t helpful or is way over the top and in your face=low tip.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Haha, of course.The lowest I go is a reasonable 15%. Which is kind of low.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
You’re preaching to the choir, man. I’ve been a pizza boy and I’ve worked at a Denny’s.
And you know in Family Guy where they say they want to build 2 Dennys’ so they can go to the nice Denny’s? My Denny’s was the other Denny’s.
rufio - January 7, 2010
HAHA!
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
I actually skipped out on a check at a Denny’s after standing at the register trying to pay for almost 10 minutes because the workers were getting high in the kitchen.
Was that the nice Denny’s?
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
The “nice” Denny’s is the one with shit on the bathroom walls.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
You’re actually allowed in the bathrooms?
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I worked dishwashing as a freshman in high schoolin a pretty popular tiny steakhouse in Louisville and almost threw up on myself the first time they made me dump salad dressing out of the dish on a plate back into a tub.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I hate the Leopards. Hate hate hate.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Unless you mean Kentuck and not Louisville, Ohio, of course.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
Oh yeah Louisville, Kentucky. I guess it was Slim that is from here as well.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Louisville Leopards? One of those kids were in my YMCA program. I don’t really have much knowledge other than they opened for the Jacket on the Waterfront which gave me more time to get my drink on for cheap outside the gates.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
hey, now we agree on something!
rolub - January 7, 2010
Cold beer makes up for alot
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 7, 2010
Reply fail, but the sentiment stands
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 7, 2010
This doesn’t need to be a reply, it’s a universal truth.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
REC!
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
Here’s what should happen:
1. Holmgren should schedule a face to face meeting with Cribbs.
1.a. Cribbs and his agent should chill out. It took this long, did they really think it was going to be done within 1/2 a week of the season ening?
1.b. Cribbs should tell his agent to shut up. All the noise hasn’t helped.
2. Holmgren should bring his rings to the meeting.
3. Holmgren should have an offer in hand when Josh shows up for 2.8 million/year, double the current offer—and should point out that it is double the current offer. The deal should be for 3 years, with a good chunk of money upfront, and practically all of it guaranteed.
4. Holmgren should explain to Cribbs the following things:
a. There is no way Cribbs gets Hester money for ST play.
b.] Things are crazy right now, there is no GM, maybe no coach, Holmgren has been in town for about 2 days. Calm down.
c. Cribbs has very little leverage; he would have to sit out 3 years before playing football again, and would be almost 30 by the time his contract was up, meanwhile he wouldn’t be getting game checks.
d. Cribbs signed his original contract, no one forced him to sign it. Maybe it was a mistake, but no one is obligated to give him more money.
e. If he lets Cribbs redo the contract with 3 years left, it sets a horrible precedent, and there is no way the Browns can function if they have every player coming to them asking for more money the second they start playing well.
f. Yes, of course Josh deserves more money. The reason he hasn’t gotten it yet is because we’ve been through 2.75 new regimes. The whole organization is a mess.
g. Holmgren was hired to FIX THE MESS. He was brought in to change the organization. Josh hasn’t been getting paid like he deserves, and thats one thing among many that Holmgren will change.
5. Negotiate up to 3mil/season practically guaranteed, up to 4.8 million with incentives that are mostly achieved through:
a. Return TDs
b.] Total yards/yards per carry/yards per catch, basically something involving the offense, not ST. Special teams players aren’t worth much. If Cribbs is worth the money on offense, he can earn it
rufio - January 7, 2010
Totally agree.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
I like it. Can we get Holmgren to swing past a microphone before #1 and say "All this final offer business is completely untrue. These discussions are ongoing. I’ll be meeting with Josh and his representatives within the week. Until then, I’ll have no further comment. "
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
I would bet heavily that someone asks him about it when he has a press conference conerning Mangini and/or the new GM, which should be very soon.
Cribbs can make all the fuss he wants right now, he doesn’t need to be at the facility for a while and it would probably do him some good to take a few weeks off. He can clean out his locker, he can request a trade, none of it matters. We couldn’t trade him right now if we wanted to.
Holmgren can afford to wait a little bit on this, at least as far as the press is concerned. In addition to the timing as far as the football calendar, there are more important things to do right now. Literally the whole organization is up in the air.
The fans will always want news coming out of Berea 24/7 because that’s the way the news works now. The media will want to get that news to give to the fans. Sometimes you just have to be patient and wait for things to get done.
rufio - January 7, 2010
I dig all of this.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
this is great. holmgren should put you on staff.
Dawg Nuts - January 7, 2010
I posted a comment like this, not quite as in depth, but it is my sentamnets exactly.
holmes213 - January 7, 2010
Great posting, and I agree.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Good stuff. Sounds all very reasonable to me.
Western Reserve - January 7, 2010
Excellent.
Not to mention the
schtick has gotten real old real damn fast.johnnyphoenix - January 7, 2010
johnnyphoenix - January 7, 2010
Grain of salt, quotes are from Cribbs's agent
This is where I see the anger from Cribbs’s camp coming from.
Source
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
I can see why JC is pissed, but can’t he at least let Mike get settled first?
I think the dust settles, JC will still be a Brown.
Or we will have a high draft pick.
I’m cool with either.
Bernie19Kosar - January 7, 2010
I’m not cool with the latter.
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
I am cool with either, or choice C… he holds out and takes up ‘fry specialist’ at a local Burger King.
You cannot change a football team while beholden to a special teamer…
If you looking for someone to blame… everyone media/blogger/poster who repeated… pay the man, pay the man, pay the man………..
Do any of you actually make more than he did? Yea I enjoyed watching him play, but he was compensated many times more than I make, and I do my job at a really high level.
Ghost of Bill Wirtz - January 7, 2010
He is just requesting to be at the same level as his peers who he has consistently out performed. I think anyone in any profession is allowed to request that regardless if you make less money then him at your job.
Regardless if he signed a contract after his rookie season, he’s more then just a special team guy, he’s the best return man in NFL history & still in his prime.
Just pay him $2-3M/year + incentives & lets be done with it. In the grand scheme of things, does that much money really matter? He’s not asking to be our team’s highest paid player or anything crazy….I do not think it is setting a precedent b/c JC’s stats, performance & the way he carried himself on & off the field all speak for itself .
strongsafety - January 7, 2010
I don’t really think he is. He’s out-performed Roscoe Parrish, sure. But Hester is Chicago’s #1 WR. He’s consistently out-performed every kick returner in the league, but he’s been hardly consistent on offense, with his best work coming in the last half of this season.
rufio - January 7, 2010
Hester is listed as #1 WR on Chicago’s depth chart…do you really believe he’s a #1 WR?
I think he’s worth the value as a kick returner, special teamer & utility guy on offense at $2-3M/yr + incentives, not hester money, that’s stupid.
Like you mentioned above $400k is not that large of money and I agree, especially for one of your biggest playmakers. A lot of times these discussions develop over players in the $8-12M ….do we sign him & keep them happy or go different direction kind of thing…the investment is more signicant.
To me, it just seems silly to draw stark line in the sand for a small amount of money that will give you positive results & affect wins/losses on game day.
What else are they going to do with the $1-2M they’re contemplating not giving him? build a bigger office? give hank poteat more money?
strongsafety - January 7, 2010
No, but someone in Chicago does/did. That’s what Hester is getting paid to play, and he’s stopped returning kicks, so they clearly have paid him as a WR and play him as a WR.
Totally agree, and I doubt that’s actually been done. Holmgren has to be swimming in all of the stuff he has to get done right now, he’s got to make ridiculously important decisions about the franchise, I don’t think he has moved on to individual players yet. So I can’t see how that was actually a “take it or leave it” offer.
rufio - January 8, 2010
You’re right; he’s not asking to be paid for like his peers — in fact, he seems to be asking for far less.
In the same refrain, Hester is not particularly desirous at WR, let alone as a #1 receiver, probably for a large number, or most, of the teams in the league. If the Bears gave him a ridiculous contract and then tried to justify the money by making him into something he’s not — a WR — that’s their own prerogative.
I can’t argue with you on Cribbs’ play offensively. He’s not a true receiver. He does, however, have unique playmaking abilities, demonstrated especially in the Wildcat — or single-wing, or the uber-wild Paul Brown formation, or whatever we’ve chosen to call it. I would say though, I don’t think we can take his kick returning for granted. Especially over the course of a whole season, good returns as it relates to field position and the offense putting points on the board can make a significant impact.
Western Reserve - January 7, 2010
No matter the success of Hester at WR, that’s what he is playing right now; he is no longer a KR. Hester might not be a legit #1 WR, but when Chicago did his deal, it was because they thought he could make a big impact on offense. He is not Cribbs’ peer.
Other players who are among the best Wildcatters in the league are also good RBs who can contribute on offense on a lot of downs: Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams. If Cribbs can rack up rushing yards like those two, I have no problem paying him for it. But as of right now, they aren’t his peers either; neither returns kicks.
Brad Smith is the most comparable player to Cribbs right now. Smith handles the Jets’ wildcat QBing and does returns. Cribbs is obviously better than Smith at both, but Smith is paid less than Cribbs is now, and a lot less than the offered 1.4 million. I have no problem even doubling the 1.4 million, but that’s a lot of money compared to Cribbs’ peers.
Cribbs is one of if not the best kick returner of all time. The problem is that the VORP for a kick returner is not all that high. If he can continue to increase his role on offense, I have no problem paying him for that. A Hester-like signing bonus just seems foolish right now with the entire financial future of the league (and Cribbs’ role on O) up in the air. If he can earn the money through incentives on offense, fine. Kick returns aren’t worth it.
rufio - January 8, 2010
I think this explains it very well.
Buckeye Brad - January 8, 2010
He is a gimick player. He is a ST all-star. He plays all aspects of ST and plays end arounds and Wildcat on offense. But he is important to the offense in his production. He deserves more than 1.4, maybe 2.8 at the most, but anything more he might be too greedy.
holmes213 - January 8, 2010
Sure, but his peers (other ST all stars) don’t make anywhere near 5mil/year.
rufio - January 8, 2010
He is just requesting to be at the same level as his peers who he has consistently out performed. I think anyone in any profession is allowed to request that regardless if you make less money then him at your job.
Should a janitor at a workplace who is the best janitor there is be paid more than a middleclass employee?
Sizemorgasim - January 8, 2010 via mobile
No, I’m saying the best janitor at the Office A, should get paid the same if not more then the janitor he outperforms at Office B (assuming both office spaces are in the same industry with the similar amounts of money to spend on employee salaries…like if there were an office salary cap, haha).
strongsafety - January 11, 2010
Already read it, still feel the same way. Calm down, don’t expect Hester money, negotiate instead of being outraged. Cribbs has no leverage, the timing of this is terrible, and when all is said and done I don’t think 1.4 million is going to be the final offer.
rufio - January 7, 2010
If only we were all as enlightened as this guy:
(Our man Robert, is a commenter on the Yahoo! Sports article covering the Cribbs story.)
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
This guy makes those of us who support Cribbs look like idiots. (and I know that is a perfect setup hopefully no one will go for the easy joke).
Forget it, I give it 5 seconds.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
All this does is give me more reason to say Holmgren is not the right man for the job!
Brownsfan4ever - January 7, 2010
TRADE THIS GUY!
Sorry but his value will never be greater than it is. He is one half-crazed flying special teams defender away from a career ending injury. Like was said before, ST players dont have a long shelf life. Trade him now.
However, if they are going to convert him to a RB full time, then you pay him and keep him.
We saw enough of him at WR…albeit with some stinky passes coming his way. But to see him as a RB, think of the screen passes…
If not…Trade Him now!
Red-Right-88 - January 7, 2010
I was on the ‘kick returners have a short shelf life’ bandwagon before the season began (and clearly they do), but now I find myself wondering if that particular truism applies to Cribbs. Unlike guys like Dante Hall and just about every other kick returner in recent memory, Cribbs game doesn’t rely on speed and the ability to change directions (which are easy to lose as injuries and years add up). Cribbs game is more a combination of fearless running, excellent vision, and a ’you’re not going to tackle me and fuck you for trying’ brand of hard nosed power running. He’s not a normal kick returner, and I wonder if he shouldn’t be looked at as maybe having the same number of years left as a 27 year old running back instead of a 27 year old Dante Hall.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
Personally, “fearless running” doesn’t sound like a good argument for a long, productive career.
Nat - January 7, 2010
i agree that his style is different and may last longer, but also, his stock will never be higher than it is right now.
bross09 - January 8, 2010
This
Spidey - January 7, 2010 via mobile
I love watching Josh Cribbs play… we all do… there is no doubt about it. If he has to go, I’d like to see him go to the Dolphins. Imagine the wildcat options with Ronnie, Ricky, Pat White, Josh Cribbs.
rockybrown - January 7, 2010
If I’m the Dolphins, now is when I start making some discreet inquiries….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
The problem with that is they drafted White for the Wildcat, and that is the “position” cribbs plays in that formation.
holmes213 - January 8, 2010
No, actually they drafted Pat White for the spread option. Which is VERY different than the wildcat. They already had Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams for the wildcat.
Simmsinns - January 8, 2010
Pat White=Pistol.
Williams & Brown=Wildcat
SpecialBrownie - January 8, 2010
Rotoworld claims that the Dolphins actually talked to us about acquiring Cribbs before the trade deadline this year. He would have been cheaper then though. Some interesting talk on Dolphins forums about this, but a lot of them see Cribbs as becoming more of a WR than he’s been for us, so it’s pretty speculative….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 9, 2010
If Miami couldn’t make a WR out of Tedd Ginn, they won’t be able to make a WR out of Cribbs.
Simmsinns - January 9, 2010
Would you believe that there are Dolphins fans actually suggesting a Ginn for Cribbs straight up trade?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 9, 2010
Wow. No thanks, Miami.
Simmsinns - January 9, 2010
No way. If they were to offer Ginn, there’d better be a high draft pick coming with him as well!
emily522 - January 9, 2010
Cribbs is panicking because he is 27 yr old this summer. He has given and taken a lot of hits over the past 5 full seasons. He has at best 2 seasons left in his prime. I think he is wrong for bringing this out in the press right now, the same time the new president is hired. Or, in his mind, he is right… he gets traded like he wants.
rockybrown - January 7, 2010
This whole press thing is his agents handiwork not Cribbs….although the twitter stuff is a bit silly.
Hey pro athletes, dont Twitter…
Red-Right-88 - January 7, 2010
I hate Twitter.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
According to Adam Scheffter’s twitter, Mangini AND Daboll (and the rest of the staff) will keep their jobs.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
WOOT!
Hey, fanshot this.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
…Daboll? Oh, boy.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Hey. He got better.
SpecialBrownie - January 7, 2010
And they can always fire him in the preseason.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
Training camps and minicamps are valuable.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Can the head coach make decisions on who is on his staff. if so, he might recommend a change. hopefully before camps.
I don’t know if i agree with this, alot of passes were still short dump-offs. the passing was non-existant. The only reason “He got better” was the line did a great job blocking for the run, and he called in the “wildcat” at the right time (another running play).
The passing game was embarrasing, 88.5 yards PG the last 4 games(84 yrd – Pit, 66 – KC, 118 – Oak, & 86 – Jac). The Oakland game is 118, but with the lack of talented DB, it should have been more. I understand the argument of lack of talent for skilled positions, but it is there, just failed to expose it. I think we still need an OC.
holmes213 - January 8, 2010
I don’t think you pass when you can run at will, which is pretty much what we were able to do in the last three weeks.
golanbatrac - January 8, 2010
Especially in cold, windy conditions.
Roger Dorn - January 8, 2010
The fact that passes ended up being short dump offs doesn’t mean Daboll was sucking. On every pass play except maybe a hail mary, you have a progression, and if your read gives you the underneath, you take the underneath.
You can’t see the WRs on their routes because of the camera angles, so its hard to say if the passing concepts suck (Daboll), if no one is getting open (WRs/TEs), or if the QBs aren’t finding/can’t hit the open guys.
I agree something has to change, but what that exactly is I think is yet to be seen.
rufio - January 8, 2010
I always wished that the networks had some secondary channel where they showed the rest of the action.
Villeslgr - January 8, 2010
I wish for this every game!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 9, 2010
I agree. our offense looked good when facing horrible run defenses. also, the blocking got better once St. Clair wasn’t playing and the running was better without jamal lewis. can you credit daboll for the injury of those players that were holding us back?? No you can’t. and our passing offense was pitiful, even against bad pass defenses.
bross09 - January 8, 2010
I mistakenly called everything after the Super Bowl the preseason.
Before the draft? Heck next week?
Villeslgr - January 8, 2010
Touche.
emily522 - January 7, 2010
Yeah, but can we do better? (I mean, is there a better OC out their available for hire than Daboll. My guess is yes.)
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
yeah…from 32nd offense to 30th…Yes the team did have a couple good offensive games running the ball but they were against 2 of the 3 worst running teams…
bross09 - January 8, 2010
maybe he can go play in KC & be the meat in the weiss/crennel sandwich?
strongsafety - January 7, 2010
WOW about the offer. First off, he does not deserve Hester money, But he does deserve more than $1.4 million a year. But that being said, I don’t think it is time to panick. This is a classic agent move to demand trades to get more money. This article explains alot of the agents, (Thats no typo, its plural) are thinking. I say give it time and the dust will settle, hell we are looking for at a whole new front office, 3 days old. Don’t over react yet. The Browns actually don’t have to do anything, he has 3 year left on his contract.
holmes213 - January 7, 2010
I forgot the link
holmes213 - January 7, 2010
Two things: was it a “final Offer, take it or leave it”?
AND; Did Holmgren buy off on it.
If those two things are true then the Browns have once again stepped in it.
And Holmgren does not look good at all.
$1.4 mill is a lowball offer, any way you want to put it. And this after public reassurances over time that he would be taken care of.
burmafrd1944 - January 7, 2010
According to his agent, the offer was a take it or leave it offer. (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8158f951&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true)
Personally, I think it’s BS that the agent put out there in order to get more money.
“Let’s make the offer public to a bunch of fans that are emotionally attached to Cribbs so they can start second guessing and shouting at the idiots in the front office who know football and know money. Then maybe we can get a
fairbigger deal out of them that’s worth more money.”Yep, sounds about right to me.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Entirely possible, but maybe not. I know I sound like a broken record, but I’m looking forward to the FO speaking out on this….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
Where have I heard this situation before? I.e., a player insulted and demanding a trade with fans in an uproar and the thought of losing the player? Hmmm, sounds similar to the Shawn Rogers situation, and that turned out just fine.
Cribbs will be a nice piece of the puzzle but once we get all the other 49 pieces of the puzzle in place (along with a Pro Bowl QB and RB, which I have the utmost confidence in Holmgren achieving), this will be a non-story.
I hope they do demand a trade. That will establish his true market value and then we can be done with the negotiating and back-and-forth. If he thinks he is worth $3 mill (just guessing), what is the going rate for trading such player?
Spidey - January 7, 2010 via mobile
/agree with a lot of this Spidey.
When Cribbs was given his original contract, how many teams would have given him what he got? I mean he was undrafted. But to his credit, he has been professional in carrying out his contract to this point. I think so many players don’t honor their contracts we have come to expect it. I wish it wasn’t that way but that is the reality. I think he definitely is not getting paid at what the market might pay at this point. But he is under contract and he didn’t seem to have any problem with that contract when he signed it. I guess he didn’t even expect he’d be THIS GOOD!
So, I think Holmgren has to be careful here. I think his plan is to have a team stacked with guys that over perform at every skill position on the team. He has to be able to pay all of them. If he gives Cribbs a huge payday, what will he have to do when he starts picking up other elite players? He’ll have to pay them too and probably more.
As we get more performing players that command larger salaries and attention from other teams, there will have to be some mechanism for controlling the total team salary. When we have a premiere quarterback, running back, wide receiver or two, a couple of linebackers, etc. the return/wildcat guy is not going to seem as important. I mean, can you name the guy that returns kicks for Indy?
Having said all that, I do think Cribbs market value is more than he is making now and probably a good deal more than the Browns’ first offer. As great as he has been in this season of underperformance I do not think the Browns should sacrifice too much for him. One thing to be careful about… incentives. With this guy you’ll probably lose your shirt promising him pay based on incentives.
Brownsyup - January 7, 2010
I think it’s pretty funny that performance based pay becomes a liability for the team when it comes to Cribbs! I guess the logical approach is to just to up the level of performance required to get that pay. You want him to contribute more on offense? Boil it down to an acceptable number of yards and put it in writing….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 7, 2010
We can’t afford not to pay guys who can contribute to our offense.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Definitely worth more than he is making now as well as the “final offer” from the Browns. The frustrating part is that the normal activities of negotiating will make the Browns look like bozos because of Cribbs’s stature.
Spidey - January 7, 2010 via mobile
I think its fair to say his value is higher in the fans eyes. Does anyone know have an idea of the number of plays he had this season. Its got to be somewhere between 300 and 500.
I would say that a 5 million dollar signing bonus along with 2 more years at same rate. If that doesn’t get it done, put in an incentives for the # of plays worth 1 mil a year.
jerseywahoo - January 7, 2010
The Browns are the ones that look bad here. Dumb move.
burmafrd1944 - January 7, 2010
Jesus Christ, what a way to screw this up. The guy wants to play here, for crying out loud.
I’m sure they’ll end up budging. The fans will murder them if he gets traded.
BuenosAires_Dawg - January 7, 2010
I’ll be more disappointed if we pay him anything over 2 mill for the rest of his contract. I don’t want to pay any more than 2 mill to a guy who is a great kick returner. As of now, that’s all he really is to me. Of course, this year he was basically our entire offense in the wildcat. Entire offense period. But with the moves Holmgren will make, I highly doubt he’s as big of an offensive contributor next year.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
I think we pay Robert Royal more than that. 2 million a year is nothing. Penny pinching on the best player you have on the team is not a good idea.
BuenosAires_Dawg - January 7, 2010
He’s not the best player on the team.
Buckeye Brad - January 7, 2010
How much do you expect him to contribute to the offense next year? Well, I guess the question really is how much do you expect him to contribute next year period. I think he will contribute alot, but I think it will be on special teams. I don’t know this for sure, but I’m guessing that next year he won’t be playing for the worst offense in the league. If he’s playing for the Browns, I expect he will be playing for a much improved team on offense and thus he won’t be contributing as much on offense. As far as I know, Holmgren is looking to build a great team. You don’t see Indy or NO or the Patriots lining up in wildcat. You see teams like the Browns and the Dolphins lining up in wildcat. If I’m given the power to build a franchise, I want to model it after the Colts or New Orleans’ success, not the Dolphins.
I’m predicting next year the wildcat won’t be used hardly at all. That makes Cribbs primarily a kick returner. Which, in my opinion, makes him tradable.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Actually, if what I’m hoping ends up coming true (Mangini and Holmgren agree and Mangini stays with the team), we may end up looking more like the Patriots than Indy or NO. I’m OK with that.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
The problem with that: if you want to be Indy or NO, you need Peyton or Drew Brees.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Ok, he’s the second best player on the team behind Joe Thomas. But that’s it.
BuenosAires_Dawg - January 7, 2010
“Cribbs was quoted Wednesday night as saying he planned to clean out his locker in Berea on Thursday.”
GREAT!
emily522 - January 7, 2010
What he didn’t tell you was that it is mandatory that everyone clean out their lockers by Thursday and they have to use Lysol too!
Brownsyup - January 7, 2010
I Wonder
Conspiracy theory: Is Dawn Ponte even a Browns fan? Since he’s in agreement with this insulting offer, I think maybe Holmgren is some kind of Pittsburgh plant.
oddjobdrummer - January 7, 2010
Dawn Aponte was brought here by Mangini. She’s an attorney, a cap specialist and a professional penny pincher. She worked in the league office for the last couple of years and worked for the Jets during Mangini’s first year in New York. She was brought here to sort out the ‘cap hell’ Savage left us in. I’ve read nothing but good things about her — well respected FO type throughout the league.
golanbatrac - January 7, 2010
How about $4.5 for 5 years and see how it goes? We’re way under the salary cap, this isn’t the time to pinch pennies and lose your ass in the process. If Holmgren let’s this one go, he’ll as popular as Modell in 2 days.
Quite an accomplishment, but no future.
Cato - January 7, 2010
Art Modell is a douche. He didn’t bother with just letting one loved football player get away from Cleveland, he took football PERIOD away from Cleveland. The Browns continue on even after Cribbs. I doubt Holmgren can reach Modell popularity in Cleveland by letting go of a special teams ace.
shep615 - January 7, 2010
Too much. 3 million tops guaranteed, more in incentives. If he can rush for 2000 yards, pay him 10 mil that year.
rufio - January 8, 2010
If Cribbs was traded, how much would we get for him? A 2nd rounder?
emily522 - January 7, 2010
that sounds about right to me
rockybrown - January 7, 2010
Good lord, I would hope at least a first. A lot of playoff-caliber teams would love to draft the guaranteed best kick returner in the NFL with their first round pick. A second round pick would be the steal of the century. (Like almost “Moss-for-a-4th-rounder” bad.)
Simmsinns - January 7, 2010
Absolutely. It had better be at least mid-level 1st rounder.
johnnyphoenix - January 7, 2010
I really don’t think we’d get that. No way we get a top 10. Maybe some franchise who thought they were one JC away would give up their pick in the bottom 10.
rufio - January 8, 2010
I did mention playoff-caliber, which is around bottom 10. I’m not saying we’ll get a first rounder. I’m saying he’s worth a first rounder, and that should be less than bare minimum we are willing to accept for him.
Simmsinns - January 8, 2010
That’s the only way I think we could even consider getting a 1st. I think our potential asking price should obviously be high because no one else has any leverage.
rufio - January 8, 2010
Wouldn’t suprise me at all if Holmgren really wants to trade him. Cribbs’ value is extremely high right now, and his contract low. I imagine he would generate a lot of interest because of this, and the Browns could get very appealing picks in return.
NM Dawg - January 7, 2010
After cleaning out his locker Thursday, Josh Cribbs said he feels like his Browns career is over.
“I wished the coaches luck and told them I hoped they kept their job,” said Cribbs. “But it absolutely felt like the last time I’d be setting foot inside the building. I feel like it’s over for me in Cleveland.” Cribbs feels betrayed and insulted by the Browns’ $1.4M/year “take it or leave it” offer. It’s hard to blame him, but it wouldn’t be a surprise if the Browns ended up sweetening their offer.
Ugh…
emily522 - January 7, 2010
I’m simply impressed that Cribbs thanked Roger Dorn.
elsandito - January 7, 2010
I am confused.
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
I think everyone missed it.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
reply fail. This is for you Dorn.
Villeslgr - January 7, 2010
haha that thought didn’t even enter my mind. That’d be hilarious
Roger Dorn - January 7, 2010
Good work, Dorn.
rufio - January 8, 2010
I was tempted...
To start screaming in fear when I read the reports about Cribbs. Then I got realistic. It’s all part of the negotiations. A lot of people here have pointed out that the NFL is a business and it is exactly that. So when you negotiate, you start low and you make like that’s as high as it will get, which in this case is 1.4
You also hit that low price early so that the other side have time to re-evaluate their expectations when it comes to the final number. Most of the second half of the season the media have been high on Cribbs and all the talk from his camp was confidence that the organisation would “take care of him” and “make it right” etc etc
Again, that’’s the business side of it. He plays well on the field, he and his agent make the right noises and the impression given to the franchise and the fans is that he has his big pay-day coming, which is what he wants at the end of it all, hence why he plays it up. He’s had quite a few weeks of doing this with the national media behind him, so the organisation brings him down and then the real negotiations begin.
The media high is justified on some levels but lets not forget:
1) Cribbs was a stand-out on a bad football team
2) Kick returns aside, his numbers aren’t so impressive as to make him big time just yet.
3) Kick returns in themselves, while a welcome additional angle to your football team, are easily replaced on this football team with a better offence.
The key fact is that for what he does, Cribbs is underpaid compared with his peers. He does have a bigger raise coming.
The fact that his potential in the wildcat and in the open is good also helps. As does the fact he loves to take it to the house against the Steelers. I’m rooting for the guy, but given his probably trade value, pragmatism may over-take sentimentality.
Terrible Terry Tate - January 8, 2010
The fact that they lowballed him is the best indication we have that Cribbs will be retained.
golanbatrac - January 8, 2010
This made me laugh:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/08/pay-the-man-pizza-now-being-served-in-cleveland/
golanbatrac - January 8, 2010
That is awesome.
SpecialBrownie - January 8, 2010
My joke meter might be off, but i hope this isn’t true. As much as I like Cribbs and want him to get paid and all that I’m beginning to get weary of all this fan interaction with ownership and management. I don’t want a bunch of nonexperienced boobs like myself making personnel or any type of decisions for the Browns.
Villeslgr - January 8, 2010
This is true.
SpecialBrownie - January 8, 2010
I don’t know, I thought it was pretty funny. How many devoted fans wouldn’t want to poke the coaches a tiny bit over the fate of one of their favorite players?
Now if the organization is really taking what’s written on the lids of pizza boxes as significant input, that’s another story, because….well, because that would make them morons.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 9, 2010
Pay the man
Cribbs could have sat the whole season but came in and played with a good faith effort that hewould be taken care of come contract time. When you saw the great season he had-all we are doing is saving money but not trying to build a championship squad.
GOD'S OTHER SON - January 9, 2010
pay him what?
The wildcat is part of building a championship squad? That would be a first.
drunkdude - January 9, 2010
$1.4 mil is fair
I think $1.4 mil is extremely fair considering Cribbs will never be a top-tier wide receiver. Cribbs is primarily a kick returner, and every other KR in the league makes well shy of $1 million a year. He deserves a little extra for being a trick-play guy, but hopefully the wildcat formation isn’t a major part of Holmgren’s plan to get the team to the playoffs.
Also, I think Cribbs is hurting the team by being unrealistic and by using fan emotion as a negotiating tool. I’d like to know what team he thinks he could be traded to that would pay him $5 mil to be their kick returner or star receiver. Maybe the Redskins – oh wait they already have Randall-El (insert dripping sarcasm here).
drunkdude - January 9, 2010
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Dawgs By Nature to post a comment.