Sigh.
Expansion Browns, take 2.

In case you missed them, here are 1999 and 2000.
Two seasons back and the Browns had five combined wins. It was past the honeymoon stage, and the natives were getting restless. On January 11th, Chris Palmer was fired as the Head Coach of the Cleveland Browns. Looking back on it, Palmer was given chicken sh*t and asked to make wedding cake. I don't think that Paul Brown himself would have gotten more than 5 wins out of those teams, the talent just wasn't there.
It took some time, but the Browns decided on hiring Butch Davis, the HC at the University of Miami. I have watched a good amount of football, but I have never, and probably will never again, see the amount of talent that Miami had on their football team under Butch Davis. Look at this roster that Davis left in Miami. Their running backs were Clinton Portis, Frank Gore, Willis McGahee and Najeah Davenport! Their defensive backfield was Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Antrell Rolle, Kelly Jennings, Phillip Buchannon, and Mike Rumph all first rounders! The fact that Larry Coker only won ONE national title says a lot about him. [Don't forget mad love for the Silver Bullets]
Dwight Clark was kept on as GM, but it would quickly become known that he would have little to no power. The defacto GM would be Davis himself and his own personal do-bitch, Pete Garcia whom he brought in from Miami. Davis was hired late in the game and didn't have much time to prepare for the upcoming draft.
But who cares? We had the greatest evaluator of talent that football had seen in the past 25 years! He was Vince Lombardi and Ron Wolf rolled into one! The Cleveland Browns had their newest great architect for the new decade and it was only a matter of time before we were printing Super Bowl memorabilia.
3rd Pick, 1st Round, 3rd Overall: Gerard Warren, DT University of Florida
In the book False Start, author Terry Pluto gave some awesome insight to the Browns thinking leading up to the draft. The previous regime was in love with Texas Christian University Running Back LaDainian Tomlinson and would have been the pick if Palmer wasn't fired.
But even with holdover GM Dwight Clark, this was the Butch Davis show. Davis had three players on his board, two defensive and one offensive. The offensive player wasn't LT, it was University of Michigan WR David Terrell. Terrell was a huge bust in Chicago and would have done the same here. His two defensive candidates were Richard Seymour and Gerard Warren.
The scouts loved Seymour. He was a high motor guy that could play numerous positions on the defensive line. He didn't have anything that he did poorly and he was strong. He lead a good UGA team in TFL and had zero personal questions. Seymour was a two time All SEC including '99 in front of Warren.
Warren on the other hand was somewhat of a wildcard. At times he flashed amazing potential and was unblockable. He gave himself the nickname of "Big Money" at the University of Florida because he was destined to be a star. His motor was a question mark and his work ethic was even more so of one.
Leading up to the draft, Davis, Garcia and Clark agreed that if he was there at pick number three, Richard Seymour would be the Cleveland Browns number one pick in 2001.
Morning of the draft, Davis had a change of heart. No one but Davis knows why. Some think it was because Davis recruited Warren to Miami but lost out to UF and he now had a shot at hooking the one that got away. No matter the reason, it was Butch's call and he chose "Big Money" Warren.
Warren had a disappointing career in Cleveland. He had decent stats (16.5 sacks in Cleveland), but Warren always let me wanting for more. It seemed that in every game, Warren would have a string of 4-5 plays where he was just destroying the interior of the opposing offensive line. He was a man possessed. Where did that player go the other 50 plays of the game? Why did Warren never have the want to truly be great? Warren is still getting paid in the NFL because he is a rare physical freak. Big, fast and at times nasty.
While I can make excuses for CBrown and Couch, I can't do the same for Warren. Maybe Butch coddled him too much. Maybe he was just lazy. I don't know, but I know that Warren was a major disappointment, and a poor first pick for Butch Davis.
Did I mention that Warren was arrested for gun possession hours after beating Baltimore in '01? Sweet.
He was traded in 2005 to the Denver Broncos for a 4th round draft choice.
Career Stats: (As a Brown, he is still in the NFL)
4 Seasons: 116 Tackles, 16.5 sacks, 4 FF, 4 FR
Players we could have drafted: (Yes I know this is stupid and 100% subjective to many factors, but I always like looking back at who we "could have drafted" just for fun.) LaDanian Tomlinson and Richard Seymour
2nd Pick, 2nd Round, 33rd Overall: Quincy Morgan, WR Kansas State University
Quincy Morgan was a good college WR. He started his career at a JUCO, then exploded on Manhattan (Kansas). He finished his time at KSU with the 5th most yardage as a WR even though he only played there two seasons. His senior season he caught 64 passes for 1,166 yards (18.2 YPC) and 14 TD's.
He wasn't great as a Brown, but he was decent. Not a great trait for a second rounder, but passable. He started 9 games his rookie season and notched 432 yards with 2 TD;'s. His second season was by far his best as a Brown. He notched 56 catches for 964 yards, leading the NFL with a 17.2 YPC and 7 TD's.
In 2004 Morgan was swapped mid-season for notorious head case and uber talented WR Antonio Bryant.
Career Stats:
164 catches, 2,466 yards, 17 TD's
Players we could have drafted: Chad Johnson/Ochocinco, Kris Jenkins, Alge Crumpler, Kyle Vanden Bosch and Shaun Rogers (Drew Brees, Todd Heap, and Reggie Wayne were the three picks before Morgan.)
3rd Pick, 3rd Round, 65th Pick Overall: James Jackson, RB University of Miami
With all the talent that Miami had at running back, we ended up with James Jackson. This guy took the Miami RB job after Edgerian James and left it to Clinton Portis. Only the early Browns would be able to pull a complete scrub from the University of Miami backfield. Once again, our offensive line sucked, but Jackson was nothing to write home about. He stepped in right away and was the starter for the Browns splitting time with Jamel White. To say that he sucked would be a massive understatement. During his rookie season he averaged 2.8 YPC on 195 carries. Wowza that is low. His long run for the season was 22 yards.
His offensive line sucked (Roger Chanoine anyone?) but to not even average 3 yards on almost 200 carries has to be some sort of record of futility. He was traded mid-season in 2004 to the Green Bay Packers, then cut after one game.
Career stats:
325 carries, 1082 yards, 3.3 YPC, 5 TD's, 32 catches, 232 yards
Players we could have drafted: Steve Smith, Kareem McKenzie, Dwight Smith, and Jonas Jennings (Adrian Wilson went the pick before)
2nd Pick, 4th Round, 97th Overall: Anthony Henry, CB South Florida
The best pick of this draft, hands down. Anthony Henry had an awesome rookie season and should have gotten Defensive Rookie of the Year (Kendrell Bell of Pittsburgh got it). He played nickel back (Behind McCutcheon and Corey Fuller) and led the NFL with 10 INT's. He added in a 97 yard INT return for a TD as his signature moment.
From there it was less than awesome. He struggled in man coverage and ways always a pump fake away from being beaten deep or committing defensive PI. He was at his best when he could ball hawk as a nickel back. When he was asked to match up against 1's and 2's, it was a mismatch.
Anthony Henry left the Browns as a FA in 2005. Prior to last season he was traded to Detroit for back-up QB Jon Kitna.
Career Stats (Only as a Brown, since he is still in the NFL):
203 tackles, 17 interceptions, 3 FF, 1 defensive TD
Players we could have drafted: Rudi Johnson, Edgerton Hartwell, and Roberto Garza. Looking back on it, Henry was a great pick in the fourth round.
3rd Pick, 5th Round, 134th Overall: Jeremiah Pharms, LB University of Washington
I just noted that Anthony Henry was maybe the best draft pick since the Browns came back. This one is easily the worst. That isn't a low bar my friends. Here is a quick background on our fifth rounder, Mr. Pharms.
On October of 1999, Pharms was arrested for assulting his wife over an argument over a girlfriend.
On March 14th, 2000, Jeremiah Pharms was involved in a shooting of a local drug dealer. His bloody finger print was at the scene. He was picked out by the victim. One of Pharms old girlfriends car was used in the get away. His DNA, after a prolonged investigation, was proven to be at the scene of the shooting. At the time of the draft, the investigation was still on going.
On December 27th, 2000, Police seized four pit bulls from Pharms house. The dogs were suffering from malnutrition and as the vet called them "all bony prominences". The dogs were never returned to Pharms.
With all of this hanging over his head, the Browns decided to use a fifth rounder on Mr. Pharms.
Shockingly, (I cannot stress the amount of sarcasm I am using here. The guy HAD A BLOODY FINGERPRINT AT THE SCENE OF A SHOOTING!) Pharms was charged in the shooting two months after the NFL Draft.
"This was kind of a shock to everybody, but one of the most horrible things you can do, is jump to conclusions". - Browns Head Coach, Butch Davis
Maybe someone should explain what "shock" means, because Butch and I must have very different ideas.
Needless to say, the Browns cut Pharms before he even put on a Browns uniform. If there was a worst draft pick in NFL history, I am all ears.
Pharms was released from prison and caught on with the New York Dragons of the Arena League. He didn't last one full season. In 2008, Pharms was charged with two felonies, illegal possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and discharging a firearm in a grossly negligent manner that could harm or kill.
Career Stats:
3 felonies, 0 tackles.
Players we could have drafted: Matt Lehr, Ross Hochstein (It was a fugly round, but we drafted the only felon)
2nd Pick, 6th Round, 165th Pick Overall: Michael Jameson, CB Texas A&M University
Dude was really small. Texas A&M had him at 5-11 179lbs going into his final season as an Aggie. He played FS at Texas AM, but he mostly stuck at CB for the Browns. He was mostly a special teamer during his years as a Brown. He only had one start his entire career. He played with the Browns for four seasons. Not the worst return on a sixth rounder.
Career Stats:
17 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT, 1 FF
Players we could have drafted: Cedrick Wilson, Renaldo Hill
3rd Pick, 7th Round, 203rd Overall: Paul Zukauskas, OG Boston College
The thing I always remember Zukauskas was for his blocking on kick returns. He wasn't just an odd shape on returns though, he did start 10 games in 2003. He wasn't great but he was a decent fill in. For a seventh rounder he was a great get. How often can you find a OL that can fill in at all offensive line positions? That was a nice find by Butch.
Career Stats:
18 Starts, 10 in '03
Players we could have drafted: T.J. Houshmanzadeh (pick right after Zukauskas), Kynan Forney, and Marlon McCree
43rd Pick, 7th Round, 245th Pick Overall: Andre King, WR University of Miami
Andre King was more athlete than football player. King played in the Reds and Braves minor league systems. Butch always seemed to go after Miami players or players that he recruited. Usually this wouldn't bother me, but it always seemed like Davis was reaching for the wrong Miami guys.
This being said, King was a decent gamble. He was a great athlete and could have been a good player. He always seemed to make the team for no reason under Davis. He stuck around for 4 seasons even though it seemed that he never made much of an impact. Think of him as an athletic Syndric Steptoe.
Career Stats:
30 catches, 327 yards, 0 TD's
Players we could have drafted: Antonio Pierce, Stephen Neal and Nick Harper
Draft Recap:
Looking back at this draft, I would have to give the Browns a D+. We got an overpaid, off-the-field mess at DT. A WR that was a question mark at best. A RB that sucked big time. Outside of Anthony Henry the Browns got zero playmakers out of this draft. Did I mention that we drafted a player who was arrested weeks after the draft for a shooting that happened before the draft? HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?!
Davis had a drafting strategy. Draft athletes. It's what makes Davis a great college HC. He can take those athletes, plug them in and destroy a lesser college. In the NFL, everyone has great athletes. Butch never understood this.
Once again, the Browns had another draft at the top of the draft board and we came away with nothing special. If you look at this drafts ('99-'01), it would blow your mind that Butch somehow took this team to a 7-9 record in '01. These horrible drafts set up what was coming in three years, another massive rebuilding.
0 recs | 152 comments
“Mr.” Pharms? Was he watching you type this?
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
It’s usually a good idea to stay cordial with people that have been convicted for shooting another person.
Chief WaDrew - January 26, 2010
Rec-ced.
skipkirk - January 26, 2010
That was my point.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
What was the stat line that analysts love to bring up when talking about why the Browns suck so bad? Because none of our first or second rounders from 99-05 were good enough to stick with the team? That’s 14 great players that we missed out on! Add the possiblity of getting the more picks back in 99’ and we missed out on a possible 16 potential franchise players. It sickens me.
I never knew that Anthony Henry was a Browns pick. The way you describe sounds a little like Brandon McD. Good nickelback who’s mismatched against 1’s and 2’s.
BrownDawg1409 - January 26, 2010
They are actually remarkably similar players, but I’d say Henry was more of a consistent player. At times McDonald can cover very well, at other times he’s just schooled. Henry seemed consistent in the types of players he could or could not cover.
danvail - January 26, 2010
I would also say Henry might be a little more skilled and has better hands…but yes, they were similar. henry sucked when in man coverage in dallas.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
I think they are oddly different players. While both seem to have decent ball skills, I don’t see many other similarities. McDonald plays small and shys away from tackles. He is decent in man coverage. Henry was pretty tall, if I remember correctly, and played like a center fielder.
Ryan Kelsey - January 26, 2010
Yeah I guess you’re right. Am I wrong in thinking that McDonald tends to play overly-aggressively in coverage, thus taking himself out of position for tackles? That’s always been my never-really-looked-at-it-closely appraisal.
danvail - January 26, 2010
He plays aggressively, but I’d argue that the times he actually got beat in coverage was due to more complacency. When he is giving full effort, I still think he is pretty decent in man coverage.
His inability to tackle, however, is inexcusable and probably a fatal flaw in his game.
Ryan Kelsey - January 26, 2010
I usually forget that we got this guy in the fifth round. With that being said, I think he’s done pretty well. It’s not like we were expecting him to be a super star when we drafted him.
BrownDawg1409 - January 26, 2010
Yea, I can’t fully fault him that we have relied on him to be a full-time starter the past 2 years. Part of it is the fault of the player personnel people for never getting better depth at the CB position. McDonald could be a more effective nickel.
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
You are right, I was and am a huge Anthony Henry fan. His rookie season was outstanding, and with him and McCutcheon we had our best pair of corners since the Browns have returned. Hopefully we can pair someone with Wright and beat out that duo.
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
Hm, did Bodden and Baxter ever play together. That might rival Henry and McCutcheon.
Ryan Kelsey - January 26, 2010
It’s possible, but I can’t give Baxter much credit since he only played in 8 games over 2 years with the Browns. 3 total interceptions.
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
And Bodden sucked.
golanbatrac - January 26, 2010
He had one pretty good season. Got an undeserved reputation that disappeared once he went to the Lions and was part of the sieve that was the Pats’ secondary this year.
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
I thought Bodden was damn good for about a season and a half.
Ryan Kelsey - January 26, 2010
Yeah, he wasn’t bad when he was here.
Buckeye Brad - January 26, 2010
I remember spending most of the ‘07 season bitching about Bodden. I think you could probably combine the best of Bodden and Brandon McDonald and make an adequate #2 corner, or a good nickel back, but either player alone isn’t all that good. Like McDonald, he’s at best a backup.
golanbatrac - January 26, 2010
Bodden was much better than that when he wasn’t hurt. In 2005 he was a solid #1.
danvail - January 26, 2010
He had a habit of shutting down Chad Johnson
North Coast Flea - January 26, 2010
I think the packers game, 2005.
danvail - January 26, 2010
the reason they are similar is that they do not have the awareness or skills to play well in man.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
That’s not true of McDonald though.
Ryan Kelsey - January 26, 2010
I would say so. McDonald does blow some coverages because of his instincts. He is not an extremely instinctive corner out there at all.
bross09 - January 27, 2010
I think he has very good man instincts. He gambles when playing zone however and he can’t tackle. If all he was asked to do was play man in pass coverage, he’d be a very good corner.
Ryan Kelsey - January 27, 2010
I guess We will agree to disagree. he plays man from what I saw more often than zone. he might not be horrible in man but he is no champ bailey at all. he has average at best man instincts. I feel he gambles a bit in man too.
bross09 - January 27, 2010
I thought Henry was faster in a straight line, too.
McDonald seriously regressed this year.
rufio - January 28, 2010
I was pissed when they fired Palmer, they only gave him 2 seasons with an expansion team that had almost no talent. Was Lerner expecting him to be like king Midas and turn shit into gold?
North Coast Flea - January 26, 2010
Yeah I could see that but really, look at what little he’s gone on to accomplish and you quickly realize he would never have been the guy to make it all work. He’s had one OC gig and two QB coaching gigs. Not exactly working his way back up.
danvail - January 26, 2010
Right. I think it’s obvious that Chris Palmer, while a nice enough guy, should have never been hired as Browns head coach in the first place. Of course, Dwight Clark should have never been hired as GM so it’s very fitting that they were both here together.
Buckeye Brad - January 26, 2010
at least we were consistent in our hirings
notthatnoise - January 26, 2010
punches wall
danvail - January 26, 2010
While this is true, hindsight is 20/20 and at the time I was still pissed.
North Coast Flea - January 26, 2010
Well that’s fair.
danvail - January 27, 2010
So after three years of “we could have drafted this guy”, here’s what our roster could have looked like going into 2002:
QB: Tom Brady
RB: LDT, Kevin Faulk
WR: Steve Smith, L Coles, D Driver, Stokely, Price
TE: Desmond Clark
LT: C Samuels
OG/C: JP Machado, Todd McLure, Kelvin Garmon, C Carligle, Shaun O’ Hara, Matt Lehr
RT: Jon Jansen
DT: Shaun Rogers, Rod Coleman
DE: …I didn’t draft any somehow
OLB: Porter, Bowens, Simoneau
MLB: Barton, Urlacher, Haggans
CB: Bailey, Azumah, McKenzie, Henry
S: Mike Brown, Nick Harper
That defense would have been amazing even with bums at DE. QB would have been shaky the first few years, but Brady could have had two years of development time. The interior line isn’t great, but we have great ends and a stacked receiving corps. Plus, LDT.
danvail - January 26, 2010
granted. it is always great to have this hindsight but at the same time, some of the picks we took were so dumb. we easily should have taken LDT
bross09 - January 26, 2010
I’m not even commenting on the fact that we missed so much. Just having fun with the exercise of what ifs. That defense is fun to picture.
danvail - January 26, 2010
Porter and Urlacher would have been a murderous duo behind Rogers and Coleman. And the secondary could have shutdown everyone.
danvail - January 26, 2010
I agree…it would be interesting…
bross09 - January 26, 2010
even applying a 50/50 hit-or-miss, assuming Brady, LDT, Driver and Stokely, that’s a decent offense to build around through free agency.
prior to Thomas, Winslow was easily the best of the bunch, and he’s a middle-tier, better-than-average TE right now… and that’s it.
rolub - January 26, 2010
This is why the draft is important.
rufio - January 28, 2010
My god what the hell was wrong with our front office? How is it possible to be so wrong so many times? Its almost impressive
The Licensed Pessimist - January 26, 2010
i agree, and said it in an eariler post. how could a team possibly miss that badly, that many times? the odds of it seem mindblowing. how didn’t a single one of them turn into a solid starter that remained with the team until now?
Dawg Nuts - January 26, 2010
It’s ridiculous.
emily522 - January 26, 2010
It’s a conspiracy.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
The Browns had the perfect storm of suck brewing before we even came back. We didn’t have the extra picks that Carolina and Jacksonville got. In ‘99 every other NFL team had figured out how to maneuver around the cap, so the Browns didn’t have the added benefit of throwing buckets of cash at good veterans on June 1st (the day when every other NFL team cut overpaid players in order to stretch a cap hit over two seasons instead of one.)
The Browns were starting behind the eight ball. We were drafting young players on to a roster of trash. Don’t get it wrong, they drafted poorly but part of me wonders how well other players would have done on such a bad roster.
All that being said, the Browns drafting has been flawed since the start and it has killed this franchise.
Bernie19Kosar - January 26, 2010
Somehow I think “killed” is an understatement.
It’s more like someone tried to revive a zombie back from the dead, shot it, burned it, scattered it’s ashes, had said ashes vaporized with nuclear weapons, and finally planted a seed in it called the 2007 draft.
BrownDawg1409 - January 26, 2010
if a player has true natural talent, he will excel despite the team around him to at least a certain extent. Look at Calvin Johnson in Detroit, he had an absolute nobody throwing him the ball and he still managed over 1,000 yards and over 10 TD’s. Ndmandi was on a terrible defense and was still seen as the best CB in the league. RB is probably the hardest position to excel in with no passing threat and a bad line but somehow, Steven Jackson managed over 100 yards a game last year. So with as many opportunities that we had being at the top of the draft order in each round for 7 years, we should have come away with at least ONE franchise player that should have stuck with the browns for his entire career. But somehow, our front office was so excruciatingly shitty that they went 7 years and around 50 picks without getting a long term, above average player. The only one to come close has been DQ and the jury’s still out. It’s almost infuriating.
The Licensed Pessimist - January 28, 2010
Define “long term”.
And Andre Johnson in Houston is another guy who has quietly put up great numbers, despite playing with (before Schaub) anything approaching a good QB, almost a complete lack of a running game, and an average-at-best defense.
rufio - January 28, 2010
you have a better chance at throwing blindfold against a dart board and hitting than you did with hitting on a guy in the draft with that front office.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
Could be worse. We could be Lions fans. Their drafts have to look pretty similar.
Crazy Ray - January 26, 2010
To be honest
The ‘could have drafted’ can apply to any team who passes on a late round steal, so don’t shoot yourselves in the foot over that.
But yes, this draft was ugly, outside of Henry, who was serviceable for a good amount of time.
Warren seemed to have found his niche with the Broncos, which is a shame for the Browns.
I’m just glad you guys passed on LT. :)
ryebr3ad - January 26, 2010
I think most of us are aware on the hypothetical stuff, however if you look at the Browns early drafts it is an exercise in complete misses. You almost have to be excellent at sucking to miss as often as we did.
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
Sort of like it takes a genius to miss every question on the SAT.
Someone else brought up that example before.
Bernie19Kosar - January 26, 2010
That was me actually
Roger Dorn - January 26, 2010
Well, this is awkward.
Bernie19Kosar - January 26, 2010
He still wasn’t good at all when he was with the broncos. he is inconsistent and they keep him b/c he is a physical freak but he never really produces.
He has in fact been with the raiders for the past 3 seasons. perfect place for an overpaid, underperforming physical freak. he is no more effective than a guy like kenyon coleman on the browns, and probably significantly less effective.
What a shame for any team that actually played him after the browns. for all the crap we give him, he has been much worse since we got rid of him…I would not call it a shame we got rid of him.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
Haha, yeah, he does belong on the Raiders. Though they do have that new technique of drafting players that suck right off the bat (Heyward-Bey, Russell). Even Ashomuga was a hideous reach, and that was the one pick they got right.
ryebr3ad - January 27, 2010
There’s not a lot of difference between Warren’s stats and Richard Seymour’s stats. Warren has played in 6 more games than Seymour, and Seymour has 30 more tackles and 11 more sacks than Warren. Over a nine year career, that’s not much separation between a guy who is considered elite and a guy who is considered a bust.
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
What about all the Pro Bowls and such?
Western Reserve - January 27, 2010
Chad clifton made the Pro Bowl this year. Derek Anderson is a former Pro Bowl QB. I don’t really think the pro bowl counts for all that much. If Seymour has an All-Pro bid or two, then I’d take notice (don’t know if he does or not).
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
Five Pro Bowls and four times named to the All-Pro team.
Western Reserve - January 27, 2010
golanbatrac takes notice.
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
Oh my gosh. He’s become self-aware — like Skynet.
Western Reserve - January 27, 2010
I hate it whenever someone brings up that D.A. went to the pro-bowl. For one thing, he was an alternate who went because Phillip Rivers was hurt that year. For the second, he was bad when he played the whole second half. I knew right then and there that D.A. was going to give us hell and that he was going to end up in the unemployment office. As a greeter.
BrownDawg1409 - January 27, 2010
Thank you!
emily522 - January 27, 2010
I used DA as an example for why I don’t think pro bowl bids count for all that much in player evaluation. I don’t see what the problem is here?
golanbatrac - January 28, 2010
Yeah, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.
Western Reserve - January 28, 2010
From your lips to God’s ears!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 30, 2010
Warren has been in an attacking 4-3 his entire career.
Seymour has been in a 3-4 every year except this past season when he was traded to Oakland.
I am not Rufio, but I think the differences in the schemes of these defenses has a lot to do with similar stat lines.
Bernie19Kosar - January 27, 2010
This is true. Hadn’t thought of that.
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
I would agree that Seymour is a far better player, but a lot of Pats fans I know were calling Seymour the most overrated Patriot when they traded him to Oakland. Take it with a grain of salt, but that is the feeling amongst their general fanbase.
Roger Dorn - January 27, 2010
Their fanbase consists of a bunch of bandwagoning, front running ingrates that knows nothing about their beloved SAWX and less about football.
danvail - January 27, 2010
rec. and agreed. we have to take the opinions of the idiot pats fan base with a grain of salt too…a very large grain of salt.
bross09 - January 27, 2010
He would have been a 2-gapper most of the time in NE. I think their whole DL is highly underrated. Even when he was in Oakland this past year and in a 1-gap scheme (I don’t know if I would really consider that “out of position” for him or not), he looked like he was just pushing the OTs wherever he wanted.
Anyway, he would not have been asked to get sacks the way a 3-tech would have under Butch Davis. Also, it is kind of a hard comparison IMO, because a 4-3 end (which Seymor now is) would probably be asked to get more sacks than either 4-3 DT (the 3tech or the nose).
rufio - January 28, 2010
Stats ≠ production.
I didn’t watch Warren the way I am watching our picks these days, but I can almost guaranteed Seymor would grade out higher to his coaches than Warren would.
rufio - January 28, 2010
Just look at what each was traded for at some point in their careers. While it’s true that Al Davis trades should be accounted for accordingly, Seymour fetched a 1, while Warren fetched a 4.
Roger Dorn - January 28, 2010
Right, I think this is pretty much a no-brainer.
Western Reserve - January 28, 2010
And Seymor was older when the trade happened. But the whole Al Davis thing…
rufio - January 28, 2010
We know, duh. It’s just conversation.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
responce to Steeler troll
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
Pretty loose definition of a troll, don't you think?
I like keeping tabs on my rival teams. Is that so much to ask?
ryebr3ad - January 27, 2010
Very loose definition.
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
Yeah, I don’t think he was a troll.
Bernie19Kosar - January 27, 2010
I know. Just pickin’ on the Steeler fan, that’s all.
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
Have you been here when Rexx or Malor have really been cutting loose?
rufio - January 28, 2010
M4L0R?
SpecialBrownie - January 28, 2010
Any one of the additional names he’s made up would suffice.
He’s been civil lately, but the less recent past makes me thankful we haven’t had serious trolls in a while. To Rexx/Bruce’s credit, he’s stayed away as well, and often seemed at least a little interested in serious intra-SBN talk.
rufio - January 28, 2010
HAHA nope
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
Ahaha I just noticed this now.
emily522 - January 26, 2010
when ppl say lol, rarely do they laugh out loud. I actually laughed out loud and got weird looks.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
I laughed for a good 10 seconds when I read that.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
At least when we do 2007, we’ll be able to say some positive stuff (Thomas, Wright).
emily522 - January 26, 2010
You mean we have 5 more of these to endure before something positive?
Spidey - January 26, 2010 via mobile
I am in the middle of doing the ’02 one right now.
Trust me, it gets worse. Even though drafting a felon that never saw a NFL snap is a tough act to follow.
Bernie19Kosar - January 26, 2010
can’t wait to hear ’02 then. however horrible and cringeworthy these are, I still love these articles. maybe I am a sports masochist.
bross09 - January 26, 2010
you are a browns fan after all.
notthatnoise - January 26, 2010
Exactly. Case in point.
danvail - January 26, 2010
I know…ergo sports masochist.
bross09 - January 27, 2010
Awesome! I mean, awesome that we will get more of these, not that it gets worse.
Spidey - January 27, 2010 via mobile
It kinda stops at (Thomas, Wright) though.
skipkirk - January 26, 2010
What about McDonald? He’s freaking awesome!
*snickers
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
for taking him in the fifth round, he’s probably been better than expected. He still sucks as a starting corner, but would probably make a good nickel, and thats more than you get from the normal fifth rounder.
notthatnoise - January 27, 2010
Looking at it from that point of view, yeah.
But to me he comes across as someone who thinks he’s really darn good, but he isn’t.
skipkirk - January 27, 2010
I get that feeling too, but couldn’t tell you why
notthatnoise - January 27, 2010
Soulja Boy dancing with Braylon during warmups? That actually doesn’t bother me too much
I really hope he doesn’t think he’s better than he is, especially considering he’s lost his starting spot a bunch of times, and just had a year where he regressed horribly.
rufio - January 28, 2010
I agree. he is a very good pick in the 5th round and I won’t knock him for that. I still think he shouldn’t start on really any NFL team.
bross09 - January 27, 2010
He shouldn’t be starting for us, either. Hopefully we can get someone to push him down the depth chart a little.
rufio - January 28, 2010
I agree. that is why I said he shouldn’t start on an NFL team at this point in his career…he is extremely lucky we have virtually no one at that position, otherwise he would rarely see the field.
bross09 - January 28, 2010
I always thought that Davis was a pretty good coach. To get the wins out of the players he had was amazing. Unfortunately he sucked as a GM. His drafts were terrible.
Crazy Ray - January 26, 2010
I thought he had a keen eye for talent, but no idea how to play the draft process. He’d become infatuated with certain players and sacrifice everything to get them (2nd round pick to move up one spot for a tight end.) He’s someone who needed a GM in charge of the draft.
gahnki - January 26, 2010
Her certainly knows how to recruit.
rufio - January 28, 2010
Hey B19K, for the ‘02 draft, don’t forget to mention that Davis drafted Green out of spite.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
I was hoping for Duckett in the first.
Brownie's Year - January 26, 2010
Villeslgr - January 26, 2010
If anyone cares, the Cardinals are no longer going to be "threat".
Warner is done
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
Well now they can grind it out on the ground with Beanie and Hightower.
rufio - January 28, 2010
Holmgren wants to make QB call before training camp
He totally punks Mangini’s philosophy here.
link
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
Mangini had next to no game film on Quinn last off-season.
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
I meant in the sense of keeping the starter a secret. He knew from day one who he was playing. He was giving DA more unnecessary reps to cover his own ass, which lead to Quinn not getting enough work.
I’m sure a professional coach can evaluate a player based off a few starts from the previous season, preseason games, and watching a couple months worth of practices first hand.
What Holmgren was saying was that he won’t let that garbage happen again.
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
Proof?
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
I think most of us knew that BQ was going to be the starter before training camp ever began (I was foolishly backing DA at that time *sigh). And Mangini knew that if he didn’t start Quinn, the lynch mob in Cleveland was coming for his jelly rolls. He wanted to win sooo badly in his first game that he started playing "stupid" as to who the starter was going to be in the first game. Therefor DA got unnecessary reps to hide Mangini’s choice.
Of course, I have no actual proof. It’s just my opinion/belief. You don’t have to agree, bro.
Brownie's Year - January 27, 2010
That’s good, because I don’t agree.
golanbatrac - January 27, 2010
Enlighten me please. What are your thoughts?
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
I think many of us were hoping that Quinn would start, but no one knew who would start (including the coaching staff). He said there would be competition at every position, and lo and behold, there was.
The lynch mob was on Mangini from day one, and Mangini made no concessions. I think anyone who thinks that Mangini gives a rats ass about what the mouthbreathers want (especially to the point of making personnel decisions based on public opinion) is delusional. A coach who rules via public opinion wouldn’t have traded down to take a center in the first round, wouldn’t have told Cribbs (the most popular player of the expansion era) to wait for a new contract and then lowball him, wouldn’t have taken two receivers and a project in the second round, and would have went to great lengths to put an end to the endless speculation surrounding the waterbottle nonsense, the mural nonsense, the Davis injury and all of the other incidents endlessly cited as proof positive that Mangini needed to be fired.
Do we really want a coach who doesn’t want to win? More to the point, would a coach who is desperate for an early win trade a pro bowl TE in the offseason and then trade his #1 receiver in week three leaving two rookies, a second year seventh rounder, and Mike Furrey as our only receivers?
Neither QB showed anything in camp or the preseason. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit that Mangini wasn’t sold on either QB, and made a last second decision in favor of Quinn. But ultimately, who gives a shit? Both QBs suck. Naming a starter a few days (or weeks) earlier than he did wouldn’t have changed a thing.
golanbatrac - January 28, 2010
You’re arguing just for the sake of arguing,. No one cares.
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
Disagree, his points are good ones here. Mangini is not being influenced by public perception. Critiquing his handling of the QB situation is fair game, but saying that he is swayed by the public or media in any shape is just wrong.
Roger Dorn - January 28, 2010
I honestly believe that the public opinion had something to do with his decisions. I’m probably just crazy then.
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
Public opinion didn’t cross his mind. Not once. No evidence to support that it did. Plenty that says it didn’t cross his mind.
Ryan Kelsey - January 29, 2010
I’ll have to side with golan here.
skipkirk - January 28, 2010
agree with all of this, and rec.
Dawg Nuts - January 28, 2010
LOL I just noticed your signature. Is that in reference to me calling BuckeyeBrad ‘Hitler’ awhile back? I was pretty drunk and on a tirade that day.
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
Paranoid much?
golanbatrac - January 28, 2010
no, just asking
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
No. I think it’s when I was saying that Hitler was a genius. A terrible genius, but a genius none the less.
SpecialBrownie - January 29, 2010
Well said and agreed.
They’d be after him because we sucked so badly at the start of this year, but had the team turned out vaguely competent and had DA somehow temporarily shown something, I don’t think it would have applied much. Winning quiets critics.
In other words, Mangini obviously had every reason to look for the best performing option at QB. He sure wasn’t going to get much credit just for starting BQ and then still sucking.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - January 30, 2010
Honestly, I would have guessed that Quinn would be the starter. That said, I don’t think even Mangini himself knew who the starter would be.
Obviously, he should have just picked a guy and went with him early on, even if it ended up being the wrong choice.
rufio - January 28, 2010
I think it would be fair game to have a lot bigger complaints if it were evident during this season that one QB was clearly better than the other. What I saw was one horribly below average QB and one below average QB who had one nice game. If anything Mangini’s indecision shows that he may have felt the QB situation was worse than he realized.
Roger Dorn - January 28, 2010
This is my view of it. I don’t think he realized how bad it was until he opened the stall door and passed out on the piss-stained floor. By the time he woke up DA was busy tanking what little chance he had left at a career as a 3rd string emergency QB. Thankfully it was in enough time to tell Quinn to hand the ball off to Harrison and get out of the way.
Villeslgr - January 28, 2010
At least we hope this was his thought process.
Roger Dorn - January 28, 2010
Well said.
golanbatrac - January 28, 2010
Yeah, I think he probably realized in camp that for whatever reason (Daboll’s offense, QBs playing worse than he thought, lack of pass pro, WRs, etc.) that we weren’t going to be good in the passing game.
He’s in a no-win situation at that point. I really think the only hope he had was to name someone the starter and hope that chemistry, combined with the rookies really stepping up to the plate would mean something in the pass game.
Knowing what he knows now, I’d bet he would admit not picking a guy was a mistake, albeit not a huge one (because no one was going to light it up anyway).
rufio - January 28, 2010
Well, Holmgren also says he doesn’t believe in that “competition stuff.”
Western Reserve - January 27, 2010
Right, if by “competition” you mean splitting first string practice time to ensure the offense doesn’t gel until week 14 – after its second QB change.
danvail - January 27, 2010
More specifically, after the QB changed again and the rest of the offense realized eliminating the QB from the equation would actually be for the best.
danvail - January 27, 2010
Which makes it ironic that Harrison’s nickname is ghost really.
SpecialBrownie - January 27, 2010
That’s so true that it is frightening.
Brownie's Year - January 28, 2010
I can see the locker room now.
Shhh. They’re coming.
Villeslgr - January 28, 2010
rec
Dawg Nuts - January 30, 2010
Yeah, something like that.
Western Reserve - January 28, 2010
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