We are two weeks into the Eric Mangini era. Let's take a look as to how Mangini has fared compared to other candidates the Browns were initially interested in:
It's not all about the record though; it's about at least showing something new that will be brought to the table. We saw some positive signs during the preseason, but we've seen the same story two weeks in a row during the regular season:
If you weren't getting irritated every time the cameras flashed to Mangini yesterday with his hands folded, his mouth chewing gum, and his hat slowly turning C.C. Sabathia style as the game progressed with no signs of life on the offensive side of the ball, then I don't know how you held it all in.
I can live with expectations being low, but I can't stand for seeing an offensive gameplan that wasn't even creative enough to be drawn up in the sand. Who is next? Oh, that's right -- the Baltimore Ravens. That should be fun. Feel free to vent all of your frustrations through the first two weeks of the season in this thread. Everything is open this time around -- if you want to tell Mangini to screw off, go ahead. Just don't go too overboard, of course.
The game recap of the Browns/Broncos contest will be up later tonight or tomorrow.
2 recs | 665 comments
we need better playcalling and we need BQ to be comfortable, which doesnt seem like he is. We need a running game that carries more than 10 times a game! We need a better OC!
kjc - September 21, 2009
We need Randy Lerner to sell the team to someone who will be dedicated to football. We need a real GM. Our organization is very similar to the Pit Pirates, and we will become them soon if we keep stringing together horrible team after horrible team.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
this is just ignorant.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I won’t put it on dedication. However, I do think it “starts at the top.” Lerner is a trust fund baby, the quintessential silver spooned non-achiever. He hired an executive capture firm to hire Savage, and this time he tried it on his own. He is dedicated and (thankfully) stays out of the way, but he is not a skilled manager or adept at assessing talent.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
sorry, man, but this is total bullsh*t. for one, i would question how much you actually know about randy on a personal level (a requisite for labeling someone a “silver-spooned non-achiever”), and also, i think it’s pretty premature to qualify his abilities as a manager based on one failed regime, and 2 games into a second. furthermore, i believe you made up the part about the executive capture firm on savage…i’d like to see some evidence of that.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I worked for the executive capture firm that placed Savage.
My opinions on Lerner are somewhat skewed by my overall opinions about corporate management (also based on my executive capture experience). However, the great majority of time trust funders are not impressive people.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
again…this is full on bullsh*t. sorry, i’m not trying to be combative, but it’s a pathetic and ridiculous generalization.
also, i’d be interested to hear more about the work the executive capture firm you were employed with did on savage (is and executive capture firm like an executive recruiting firm? never heard the word “capture” in this context), if you can share. it’s not as though they were looking in the food-services business for a potential GM…savage was a highly-regarded football exec by pretty much everyone in the league…i’m not sure why a “capture” firm would have been needed. plus, at that point, lerner had hired collins to run the hiring. if, indeed, the capture firm were heavily involved in the process, i lay that on collins, not lerner.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
It works the same way as it does when Dell has an opening at CFO, or Disney needs a new Head of Corporate Communications, or etc etc etc. The more common term is “head hunter.” That’s who Collins/Lerner hired, and they conducted the search. Of course, the client has the final say (Dell on their CFO, Lerner on his GM), but the search is guided by a firm. A firm is hired b/c they know more about the talent pool and/or Industry than you do.
I couldn’t care what you think is full on bullshit. What I claimed is so obvious as to be self-evident.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
i just have a hard time believing that a professional football organization handed a search for a football executive to a head hunter…and that if they did, that such is outside of the normal course of business for the industry.
your sweeping statements and certitude about the trust fund matter is embarassing. but that’s a different conversation for a different place.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
You don’t have to believe me. I’m sure some googling would prove it. A search of my ex-firm and Savage’s name produced some hits.
You’re right, it’s for a different place. I’m assuredly not embarrassed, and I find your naivete cute, notJoey!
kwoog - September 21, 2009
i’ll check out the google. i’ve heard good things about that place…
the condescension is noted…go forth and conquer with all those answers you’ve got.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Aww, c’mon, “embarrassing” is more condescending than “naive”, don’t you think?
kwoog - September 21, 2009
that’s a good question. pretty solid condescension points for both.
we haven’t had a good tete-a-tete in a while…always enjoyable!
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Likewise!
kwoog - September 21, 2009
Agree about the sweeping generalization of trust funders.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Now that is a great retort.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
yeah, had to get up off the mat and dust myself off after that one.
what i’m finding is that using executive search firms in the hiring of football people is certainly not rare (my retreat position after i got dunked on). i’m not sure if kwoog was trying to say lerner was a bonehead for using the search firm in the first place…but whatever the case, it wasn’t neither the first nor the last time such a tactic was employed.
and i guess my ultimate point is lerner is no more or less engaged or dedicated or whatever than the vast majority of the rest of the NFL ownership.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
In fairness, he set you up in a sense. He had that card up his sleeve.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Disseminating accurate, relevant and largely unknown information is setting someone up? Easy fellas… If I didn’t know better I’d start to think you were a Rockefeller or Steinbrenner. (har har)
kwoog - September 21, 2009
I think in a sense, yes, considering you were criticizing Lerner’s hiring process without giving us the full information initially. Didn’t mean it in a bad way, though, because I found it amusing.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
My original point was just that I think some criticism of the Lerners, and Randy especially, is starting to be valid. I’m a bit of a Savage apologist (not b/c of any bias), but I think he should have been our Kevin Colbert. And I’m record as not being thrilled with the Mangini hire from the beginning. So, in a sense, I just mean that he’s tried it a couple of ways and gotten it wrong each time. Of course that seems premature for Mangini and Kotknkis (sp)
kwoog - September 21, 2009
similarly, i’m a bit of a lerner apologist. the “he’s not interested” criticisms are ridiculous and overdone; he KNOWS he’s not a football guy, and all he’s tried to do is hand control over to football guys to take the onus off of him. given that collins/savage/romeo exploded in his face, though, and mangini kotnkus (sp) is off to a pretty craptastic start, i’ll concede that randy should be subject to some criticism. just not the “he doesn’t care about the browns” barbs.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I agree. You’ll notice that in my post I directly challenged the “dedication” argument and put it all on his ability to spot talent and/or manage an organization. This is an important requirement for an owner, and I questioned his abilities. It still might be too early, but we’re rapidly approaching that point, no?
kwoog - September 21, 2009
Sorry, don’t know how I missed it, but you’ve already made the concession I asked for.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
But how does an owner get held accountable? Even if you accept the premise that he has done a terrible job at hiring football people (which certainly appears to be the case), what do we do? It’s not even worth complaining about, just something we will have to hope goes our way one of those times. Has there ever been an owner who sold a professional sports team because the fans were pissed about coaching and GM hires?
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
I’m not sure, but I think old Randy know this isn’t his team as much as it is the city’s. This is where I’ll give him credit, and it’s why he stays out of the spotlight.
So yes, I think if the fans called for his head after he and his father whiffed on 4 straight regimes in 11 years, he’d gladly find a buyer and bask in the adulation he gets from his soccer club… while living out the rest of his days in a nice little cottage somewhere.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
There is no doubt in my mind that Lerner WANTS to win in Cleveland I just don’t think he knows how. I’m frustrated that he becomes so enamored by certain coaches that it seems he doesn’t look at all options.
Mangini was officially hired January 7th. You mean to tell me that Randy would not have been interested in talking to Super Bowl winning coach Jon Gruden? He was fired by the Bucs 9 days later. Or how about Herm Edwards who was fired 16 days later. Heck the playoffs were only one week in, so the coaching staffs of teams like the Cardinals, Steelers, Chargers, Ravens, Titans, Eagles, Giants, and Panthers were never even interviewed.
I understand the desire to have a new staff in place as soon as possible, but if it means getting a better staff in the long run I think you make a sacrifice. I’m not giving up on Mangini just yet but with a couple more outings like the last two and I’m afraid that we’re right back where we started, the laughing stock of the league.
satchel - September 22, 2009
Herm Edwards? I would jump off a cliff if we hired Herm Edwards.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
No kidding.
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
+1
rufio - September 22, 2009
Herm would at least play to win the game. (sarc)
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
There is a reason that the pats, steelers, eagles, are good every year. It starts @ the top. You say the rooneys are not football guys then its a hell of a coincidence that there hiring and drafting home runs every year. And the browns inevitably are not even competitive every 3rd yr
troy e - September 24, 2009
I don’t want to jump all over you, but the word “ignorant” is one of my pet peeves, especially when applied to an idea. “Ignorance” means a lack of knowledge, generally because of a lack of education. Ignorance is usually indicative of a societal problem, and is better used to describe a group or a person with serious issues. To use “ignorant” on a person who has an opinion about football is a misapplication of the gravitas that the word should normally carry.
Also, you called his idea ignorant, and because an idea is incapable of knowledge, it can’t be ignorant. It could be wrong, certainly, and in this case it is.
Lastly, he might have been sarcastically comparing Lerner to all the Dolan hate we hear. I’m not sure about that one, though.
Chemo - September 21, 2009
i understand what ignorance means, and it’s definitely not:
without getting into your treatise on ignorance, sad dawg’s comment about lerner is absolutely ignorant. he has no knowledge of lerner’s dedication to football/the browns, and therefore is in no position to forward the “he needs to sell the team” declaration.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Without getting into the word ignorance or its connotations anymore… Frankly, you have no idea what prompted Sad Dawg’s comment. Maybe, as you suggest, he is completely unaware of Randy Lerner’s background and interest in the team. Or maybe he actually knows a ton about Randy Lerner, has read up on him extensively, and has reached a conclusion about him that you and I don’t agree with. Or maybe he knows Randy Lerner personally, and has heard Randy say “I don’t give a hog’s bottom about football.” Heck, maybe he was even jokingly comparing Lerner to Dolan.
When it comes to Sad Dawg and his knowledge, you are, to use your word, ignorant.
And look, I don’t agree with him either. I just wish people (not you in particularly, since it’s everywhere) would stow the attitude and try the words “wrong” or “disagree”.
Chemo - September 21, 2009
you know what…you’re absolutely right that i am ignorant of sad dawg’s knowledge of randy lerner. i do happen to have some knowledge of lerner and his intentions, though (friends in the nfl and w/ the browns), and i can tell you that anecdotally i’ve heard enough to know that sad dawg is barking up the wrong tree.
perhaps i was tough on sad dawg, but, like your frustrations with the prevalent misuse of the word “ignorant” (i’ll maintain i used it properly, if perhaps a little quick on the trigger), it frustrates me to no end to see people say things like “get rid of (lerner/dolan/other owner of different team)”, when the people saying those things clearly have no clue about lerner/dolan/other owner of a different team.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
True, I don’t know Randy Lerner personally, but, it’s my OPINION, not ignorance, that he is not as involved w/ the Browns as other, successful, owners are with their teams. The Rooneys, Jerry Jones, Ralph Wilson, etc. It seems that dedication to winning takes a whole organization, not just the players, or coaches, or the owner – the whole group. We used to have that. Like him or not, Art put together a good organization in Cle. I miss those days, and I see no light at the end of the tunnel in getting closer to them as long as we have an owner who has other sporting interests, like Aston Villa, FC.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
Randy doesn’t get involved because he admits he doesn’t know enough to get involved. Not every owner is going to have the football acumen of the Rooneys or the Maras.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
ralph wilson?!?!?
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
sorry, meant as a reply to sad dawg.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
The Bills owner – 90 and still going!
sad dawg - September 22, 2009
i would most assuredly not trade lerner fo ralph wilson. 4 lost super bowls in the 90s and crappy teams since. plus the guy couldn’t even remember what day it was at a presser a few years ago.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
I’m glad he doesn’t get involved. I remember Art Modell throwing piles of money at Andre Rison. I would rather have an owner that knows his shortcomings and hires talented people to make the football decisions.
Chemo - September 22, 2009
True, the Rison deal was horrible, and even worse was when they cut Kosar, the single worst incident ever in Browns history, although I think Belichik had a lot to do w/ that.
sad dawg - September 22, 2009
Cutting Kosar was worse than moving the team? I believe they treated Kosar badly, but it was clear that he was well past his sell-by date. It was painful to watch Bernie in the pocket getting hit like a boxing bag, over and over again.
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
well, bernie actually called all the offensive plays in a monday night thrashing of the 49ers a couple of weeks before his benching, so i think you’re misremembering (to quote roger clemens) a bit.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
If I recall correctly, the Browns had the best record on the AFC when they cut him, then lost the next 4 or 5, although they did make the playoffs that year. He was hard to watch at times, especially the under hand passes, but he was good, and won games.
sad dawg - September 22, 2009
jerry jones has been a disaster for the past 15 years (essentially, since he took “control” from jimmy johnson—the real football guy), the rooneys hire good football people and largely stay out of it, and ralph wilson may or may not know what a 3-4 defense actually means. you are conflating “involvement” with “hiring good people”…i have no desire for randy to be involved other than to hire good football people…that’s been his failing so far.
the fact that he owns Aston Villa has nothing to do with anything. what is it that you think his “involvement” would positively impact over the course of a football season? you want him to suggest free agent signings? comment on schemes? tell mangini “i’ve got my eye on you”?
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
Jerry has been, but, they won 3 Super Bowls with him as owner, so, I’ll take that disaster any day of the week! And yeah, I think a little pressure to win from the top, such as an “I have my eye on you” might be nice, maybe he does that, maybe not, but if so it doesn’t show. You see owners in the spotlight often, interacting with fans, on the sidelines, showing their face. I used to see Al Lerner get involved, I liked him, I just don’t see the same passion w/ Randy, thats my whole basis. Maybe I am wrong, heck, I live 600 miles away in NC, but I keep up w/ Cle and the sports teams, I watch all the games, try to make it to one or so every year
sad dawg - September 22, 2009
wanting him to be more visible as the figurehead of the franchise is very different from being involved and making a positive impact on the football operation.
i won’t argue with you about wanting him to be out front, you’re entitled to that—but randy is a reclusive guy, so i guess we shouldn’t get our hopes up. but being visible would have literally zero discernible impact on the quality of the football team.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
no, not at all like the pirates. lerner has spent tons of money on this team. free agents, new coaches, facilities, consultants.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
Become them soon? I think we are every bit as bad as the Pittsburgh Pirates already. At least they showed some signs of competent management this season.
Chemo - September 21, 2009
Good point, although I really hope we don’t go 17 losing seasons. At least when the players leave the pirates, they actually perform very well on the teams they go to.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
Kokhinis has been a decent GM so far, its the coaching that is a problem
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 21, 2009
agreed, i see no real problem with him so far. our pickups haven’t been terrible, it’ll be awhile until we know about our draft.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
this is nuts…to me, it’s everyone’s problem that we’re 0-2…kokinis isn’t exempt b/c hank poteat was a good value pick up.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
kotkeenoos(sp) isn’t the one orchestrating the shitty play calling, that’s mangini, and he isn’t the one failing on the field. elam was a good pickup, so were bowens and coleman. and i said i didn’t have a problem with him specifically, not that being 0-2 wasn’t his problem.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
sad dawg, it sounds like you are confused. The bucco’s are heading into browns territory. The pirates have a previous history of winning, the browns have a history of misery and getting their asses kicked by dem stillers!
6rings - September 22, 2009
The Browns have a bigger history of winning than the Pirates. Look it up.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
The Browns have one of the best histories in all of sports. In the early days of the Browns they were the most dominate teams & almost couldn’t be stopped. There will never be a team that will do what they did again. We will never see a team go to a championship 10 years in a row & also win seven of them. Its too bad I have only heard the stories & never had the pleasure of seeing it myself. I only have memories of “The Drive”, “The Fumble”, “The Movement” & “The Sad Replacement For 10 Years Straight”
tubes - September 23, 2009
The 1950’s Browns were the 1960’s Celtics.
e.c. matter - September 23, 2009
Beautiful Cleveland Browns fans, I love your football passion for your team and I agree with you wholeheartedly (KJC). Brady Quinn needs to feel comfortable and relaxed during the game. Mangini for this year, needs to hand over the headset and play-calling duties to someone who is more responsible like your receivers coach or quarterback coach for this years team. Apparently, Quinn needs someone who was a quarterback or had experience from the game, allowing Quinn to change the plays or speed up the offense. Mangini and this offensive coordinator come from the school of "system first ", “my way or the highway”. This style of play is very narrow-minded and shallow in it’s presentation. Quinn can grow faster in this games if you allow him to change the plays (audible) since he is on the field and has better control of the game. Charlie Weis understood X’s and O’s, how to call the game and manage it. He tutored 4 good quarterback in his day (Phil Simms, Brady Quinn, Tom Brady, and Jeff Hostetler. This part of the game has been taken away from Quinn. Although he is accurate, you have to take the shackles off him. As far as the rest of your offense goes, your offense line is good, but Jamal Lewis is done and he knows it. Age has nothing to do with this, 10 years of heavy hitting between tackles has caught up (the bumps ,bruises, and injuries) to him. Start looking in the draft for southern running back who can takes some hitsand gain some yardage. A new tight end would be a great ideal, once again someone from the south (a la Ozzie Newsome, Kellen Winslow II) . Braylon Edwards, get rid of him; I don’t care if you get two 6th round draft picks for him. NEVER pick up a receiver or running back from the University of Michigan when your team is from OH-IO, bad karma ( oil and water do not mix). More receivers from the south or west, small college or Division I-AA college; they will work harder not like these receiver from the North, pampered with attitude. Your defense is solid , just needs a little fine tuning. This coach Mangini should pattern his team from the 1986-1989 Cleveland Browns team. Cleveland is not a bad team, but they need some attitude and beat Pittsburgh to build some confidence. Stop crying about the past what you used to have, Marty Schottenheimer, Bernie Kosar, the Dawg Pound and what ever else history of the Browns you might have. If you stay in the past, and don’t build for tomorrow, kiss your future goodbye.
Hurricane$$ - September 25, 2009
When Lewis is done, Lewis will be the LAST PERSON to know it.
Start looking in the draft for a
southernrunning back who can takes some hits and gain some yardage.ummm….no.
I’d kill for Leroy Hoard right about now (the last decent running back the Browns drafted).
Terrell Owens?
Larry Fitzgerald?
e.c. matter - September 25, 2009
Can the horrible defensive 2nd half be blamed on the offense?
doowop - September 21, 2009
I think so, in part. The run defense looked pretty solid both first halves, but total run down and gave up big, game-ending runs in the early 4th quarter both times.
Still, a tired defense isn’t a enough to totally excuse that side of the team. I’m not sure if we need more depth in our front seven or just more discipline when teams are eating up precious game clock and yardage and we are down by a score or two.
That said, the 3rd down percentage for the offense is so bad, they just can’t stay on the field. (23%, easily the worst in the NFL- http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/3rd-down-conversion-pct). I don’t mind the conservative play calling in general- They are keeping it in 3rd and 7 or better. But Quinn has been particularly “skiddish” and indecisive on these obvious passing downs. The check downs and sacks and incompletions look like player incompetence more than anything. I was rooting for Quinn to win the job, but I’ll be the first to say his play is horrific and disappointing. On the other hand, I’m not clamoring for DA any time soon because DA, in addition to his struggles that we all witnessed the last few years, lost the job to Quinn.
Bottom line, I was pretty sure during the preseason that our 2010 QB was not on the team as of right now. I sure hope something happens to prove me wrong.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
“I was rooting for Quinn to win the job, but I’ll be the first to say his play is horrific and disappointing. On the other hand, I’m not clamoring for DA any time soon because DA, in addition to his struggles that we all witnessed the last few years, lost the job to Quinn.”
i was rooting for quinn too, and while i’ve tried to be positive saying “oh he’ll get better”, i’m right there with you.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Those second half defensive collapses are just killing me. Agree that the D is tired and demoralized, but not blameless either.
If BQ does get the chance to thoroughly and irretrievably flame out this year, I’m guessing its DA as backup for someone new next year
-unless DA shows enough of a streak that we can trade him for someone willing to take a chance on him.RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
I am still not convinced BQ is the problem. The play calls are terrible, and Lewis just can’t get it done anymore on a consistent basis. With no running game, so-to-speak, I don’t think it would matter if it were BQ, DA, or Drew Brees, for that matter, the passing lanes will never open up in that offense. The play calls need to be more appropriate for a new QB in a new system, and the running game has to pick up for third down efficiency to have any chance of improving.
guambrownsfan - September 21, 2009
I’m not saying BQ is solely at fault. A good system and solid playcalling might have made BQ’s last couple of games tolerable. Conversely, a great performance by BQ might have salvaged these games.
Unfortunately, we were a long way from either, so there’s plenty of blame to go around.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
Did anyone see the hit Ray Lewis put on Darren Sproles??? Our backfield is going to be in a world of hurt if our O-Line can’t get it together.
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
this is a bye week for all browns fans. make plans right now to do something else this sunday. spare yourselves from the horror of this week’s “game”. if you must …. record the “game” for playback at your convenience.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
Good idea. Two weeks in a row I turned the game off after the 3rd quarter..
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
Wrong. This is a “bye week” for all quitting-psuedo-fans. Browns fans will be wearing their Brown and Orange, yelling at the game or at their television sets or at a bar. They will be cheering for the team they love until the clock hits 0:00.
Also, on this advise, I would have missed the best parts of 2007 (win over Bengals) and 2008 (giants game) because I was so down from the week before.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
Well spoken!
And after they’ve done that, they’ll probably be drinking themselves into a blessed oblivion, but sometimes that goes with the territory.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
Geeze… this is for venting. Don’t get all serious on me and call me a psudo-fan. I guess I’ll just go hang my head since I can’t hang out with you real fans.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
us browns fans got to stick together! so let’s not get all angry with each other, alright? :)
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Hey, no intention to slam anyone on my part. Needed the pep talk myself. We all grieve in our own ways, right?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
haha it’s ok. someone got mad at me for being negative on the board yesterday so it’s all good.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Yes… if there is one thing we have to do is stick together. No harm, no foul.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
Glad to hear it!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
Yes, this is for venting. And I’m going to vent on how terrible it is when some “fans” suggest its a good idea to stop supporting the team.
Cleveland fans don’t do that. Leave that for the people of Detroit, New Orleans, and Cincinnati. They see a bad team and give up. We don’t. We keep supporting our team through the best and worst times. You don’t want to watch the game this week? Fine. but I don’t care to see those types at the stadium or wearing the en-vouge jersey when we make our next play off run.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
so true! believeland.
a lot of the time i say “i’m done with with this team!”
then next sunday, im watching the game again haha.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I’ve been a Cleveland fan all of my life and always will be, but it’s just so disheartening to see this. It’s one thing to lose, but outside of a few people on the team i’m seeing very little heart, which is what really pisses me off. These guys get paid millions of dollars to “work” out on the football field. The least they could do is give a full effort for the whole three hours.
Clevsports - September 21, 2009
I agree. What’s even more discouraging is seeing players shake their heads in bewilderment after plays. I saw it a lot on Sunday. It’s like they’ve already resigned to the fact that they are going to get beat on the next play. Good teams don’t do that. Forget about it and move on.
satchel - September 22, 2009
en vouge? i’ve been a cleveland browns fan my whole life, went to the stadium and watched more games over the past 25 years than i can count. year after year of beatdowns, organizational changes, poor play on the field just wears a guy out you know. take a bye week, spend some time with the family. doesn’t mean you’re not a “real” fan
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
I believe he was saying that there will be some “en vogue” Browns jerseys when we make the playoffs, and that people who are truly quitting on the team now (or aren’t even fans right now because we are awful) will be wearing those jerseys when we break into the playoffs.
rufio - September 22, 2009
What rufio said.
I just don’t understand taking a bye-week as a fan. It seems too bandwagonish for me. Too much like waving the white flag.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
I am with this. We are an awful football team right now, but I am going to keep paying attention and believing we can get better. We can. I’ll support the Browns in the good times and the bad, and I am not going to act like I won’t support the team anymore.
I can understand how people say things like “I am done with this team”, but I never will.
rufio - September 22, 2009
well said.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
I’ve tried to quit the Browns before, and obviously failed. I’ll be watching on Sunday. I would say that taking a bye week as a fan is a long way from outright bailing on the team.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
Troy Polamalu will often look very relaxed, kind of wandering around until the ball is snapped. Then he explodes into action.
Yesterday the whole Browns defense look like Polamalu. Except they forgot the explosion part.
Did anybody else notice that about out defense. Before the snap, we did not look ready. We simply were not ready.
The defense, though, was the positive about the game. The Browns need a new right tackle. To no block the same move by a Bronco defender three plays in a row cannot be excused. Quinn looks horrible and I cannot even put how he looked into words. Let’s try “inefective”. Looking at Payton Manning last night, he was smooth and it seemed effortless to complete passes. Quinn looked like every play was an epic struggle just to execute the mechanics of a forward pass.
Mangini has painted himself into a corner. Does he lighten up on his players before they totally abandon ship (if they haven’t already). And if he does lighten up will they start to walk all over him?
Never hire a rookie offensive coordinator. Daboll is really having trouble with play calling. Bad play calls at inopportune times. Just bad.
This team is in big trouble.
vincefitz - September 21, 2009
I knew all along that Quinn was a bum, and I made sure my tv knew that every time he tried to throw the ball…
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
so after two games, quinn is a bum and mangini has lost the team? that seems like a little more than a vent, that’s writing off the entire season. good grief.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
I was never too thrilled about just handing the job to Mangini, and Quinn played last year and I haven’t seen much of any difference in him. I’m not writing off the season at all, I’m just really disappointed so far. Welcome to Cleveland sports.
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 22, 2009
Good post… I did notice the defensive wandering. I haven’t seen that all year. Was that this week’s game plan?
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
A good post, but Peyton Manning didn’t play last night…
Chemo - September 21, 2009
Empty Hand Pass
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
I don’t want to gang up on Quinn but this makes me laugh. :-)
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
I’ll gang up on him. I’ve never seen that from anyone before. Horrible
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
It is a comical pic, especially with the editing, but seriously, you’ve never seen a QB fumble a football? You really should watch a few games. Come on….But I see you are a Blazers fan.
guambrownsfan - September 21, 2009
i like quinn, but gotta admit… that’s pretty funny.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
That picture is hilarious.
It doesn’t even make any sense.
DoomsdayD75 - September 23, 2009
Thanks for the new post, Chris. It’ll be ugly, but I think we need to get the accumulated bile out of our systems….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
No worries guys, Mangini just wants the Raven to be overly overconfindent against us next week. /sarc
talonk - September 21, 2009
Yup, he’s a genius! Next week’s in the bag baby!!
Brownie's Year - September 21, 2009
…a Mangenius right? That’s what we’re supposed to believe he is?
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
That’s what we were told to believe. HA
Brownie's Year - September 21, 2009
I’m not fooled…/srsly
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
That’s the body bag, unfortunately.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
It’s gunna be UUUGLY.
Brownie's Year - September 21, 2009
Jamal Lewis is washed up and old!
i know the Browns problems run waaaay deeper than this, but is anyone esle tired of seeing this 250+ lb back tip toe and studder step to the line? RUN THE DAMM BALL THROUGH THE HOLE FOR PETE"S SAKE!
As I Browns fan i have no hope at this point! Our team playing football is almost a disgrace to watch.
jizzyp da juice - September 21, 2009
Best to leave it all on this page and then reset for next week. All a painful memory… but it is just football guys! All is well, all is well…
Thanks for the therapeutic session my friend. I feel better all ready.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
I had to write this… Guy in my office just asked if we as fans can take a “bye week” this week and go play golf instead… LOL!
This is a very good article with great analysis on Quinn. Dennis Manoloff is spot on here in my opinion.
http://www.cleveland.com/dman/index.ssf/2009/09/charting_brady_quinn_a_look_in_1.html
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
Great article! And yes, I think we as fans should take a bye year and golf on Sundays. What happened to 1996-1998? Those were kinda great years to watch the NFL, I didn’t care who won, except for the Ratbirds and Steelers of course.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
those were the best years in browns history!
6rings - September 22, 2009
You really should go back under your rock in Pittsburgh. Sure, you’re a troll, but this is really a dumb thing to say.
drjeo - September 23, 2009
you’re an idiot
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
Yeah, good article.
You see the comment where the guy said we should switch to black uniforms? lol
Brownie's Year - September 21, 2009
i support quinn but...
this article is definitely right. i’ve been really disappointed in brady so far. he looked good against the broncos last year, and pretty good in preseason, too. i think he will improve throughout the season, though. i thought he was the answer for the browns, but maybe he isn’t. however, i don’t think DA should be put in until at least mid-way through the season. it’s not that i am totally against DA, so i wouldn’t be furious if he was put in. it’s that i thought brady was better suited for the offense. i give him 8-10 games.
hate to say it, but if brady doesn’t work out this season, say hello to mccoy or bradford.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Oh my… we are talking about the draft!!!
What about Tebow!!! At least he is the kind of player Browns fans can get behind… a player with an iron head!
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
I think he’s a tool.
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
yeah i agree. even though i hate him, i’d admit it if i thought he’d be a good nfl qb. but… i don’t!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I dont like him, but at least he is a good guy.
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 21, 2009
i wanted to avoid talking about the draft, but it’s just unavoidable right now. i’m too irritated to think rationally lol.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
no, it isn’t unavoidable at all. they’ve played two games. draft talk is absurd.
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
Why would we want Tebow? Are we losing Heiden or Royal?
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
He would be very effective for our FB/TE hybrid pass play. Mooncamping would flip.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
…and rec’d.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Are you talking about the Cleveland Browns patented Freaky Flanker position? Did I miss something? Did we go out and sign Leonard Weaver, Steven Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, Nate Ilaoa, Legedu Naanee, Brian Leonard or someone else who has powerful legs to propel some weight into packing some wallop, yet possessing undeniable ball handling skills. To represent a backfield threat, lined up as a receiver? Geez, could it be someone has seen merit in mooncamping´s ideas?
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
I’m starting to understand now after watching the Browns weak offense.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
and yes, I was referring to the Freaky Flanker position, I just forgot the name of it.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Go ahead, institute it. mooncamping is not important enough to claim ownership of the concept.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
If we get Tebow or someone like him, it’s a done deal. Right now we don’t have a Freaky Flanker.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Well technically, both Edwards and Cribbs are pretty freaky. But I see them more as transplanted college level running backs, albeit they didn´t play that.
Aren´t there some freaky guys that were cut or not signed, just to try the concept? I haven´t done my homework, and I don´t have one of them deals where you can watch scouting videos. Call me crazy, but Boss Bailey is out there, that guy can jump over your head if he doesn´t decide to pile drive you.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
But as a small nod to mooncamping´s ingenuity, I would ask to not view it as a gimmick. This should be a staple.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
Unfortunately, I don’t call the plays or sign the players.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Well let it be known, that mooncamping ommits all claim to patent the idea. It would be an honor to see something from the boards see it´s way into game time action.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
the third person references in this (and other) posts are tremendous.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
" Call me crazy"
Okay you’re crazy.
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
rec’d…
rufio - September 22, 2009
If/because Mangini is going to be here next year, he won’t give up on Quinn. Huge hit to his ego = he will avoid it.
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Quinn is gone next year. Of course I predicted a Denver loss so take it for what it is worth.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for shipping him out yesterday for a low draft pick (lets face it, thats about all we could get). Don’t care that he’s from the area and he grew up watching the Browns. Big deal. He can’t get the job done. I haven’t seen anything out of him that shows me he can handle the offense.
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
I’ll go more out on a limb. BQ will not be starting for ANY NFL team next year.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
(…misfire!…) Hard to say when we’ve only seen two games worth of BQ. If Mangini pulls BQ too soon, we could look forward to another year of ‘quarterback controversy’ and all the associated BS. Kill me now.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
yeah, i’d love to avoid that too. i’m sick of starting back at square 1!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
You and me both! I hate to say it, but I’d rather lose a few more games and KNOW that BQ is history than win a few more and go on to next season with the same old ambiguity at the position.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
i agree.
this is so disappointing. i really did think he’d be good. not like peyton manning, but at least a quality qb…
i’m totally contradicting myself. one minute i say “give it time” then the next i’m ready to give up. this is what happens when you’re a browns fan.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Good point. We have to know one way or the other. I’d give him 2 more games to show some improvement—not that he needs to be Peyton Manning or anything… just some improvement that will give us a glimmer of hope that he might be the guy.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
i give him until week 8 still. unless he starts regressing.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I think he’d have to start playing on the other team to regress… ;-)
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
so, in your opinion, if quinn continues to suck and DA doesn’t look much better… what do you do? draft a qb and start the whole process over?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
There would be no other choice… unless you want to start Cribbs or Brett Ratliff. Nope… I’ll go with the rookie.
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
I’d hate to put a concrete number on how many games you give BQ to show that spark, but force me and I’ll say…. 6. But any spark might count!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
sadly, i don’t think we’ll be seeing sparks against baltimore’s defense next week :-/
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Ugh. Don’t remind me about next week. Haven’t built up the proper mental defenses yet! :)
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
You guyses approach is wrong. If you no longer believe in a guy, you must find a way to not give him opportunities to succeed, but also don´t give him chances to fail, because you know, he might not deliver on his chance to fail, and we end up with a guy that is uncuttable. You know these incorrigible types, you push them and they start succeeding. I would not like a statistically enabled quarterback.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
Moon, as always, your logic is…. unassailable. :)
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
last i checked, he was picked for a reason. DA is 2nd string not because of fan cries, but because the head coach says that our best option to score and not tire out the entire defense is to play him.
has he proven himself to fans? not according to what i’ve seen here.
if the coaches give up on Brady, no doubt we’ll know.
themadlibs - September 21, 2009
I honestly don’t see how this is surprising. I know I may be seen as pessimistic, but its moreso realistic. And realistically our off-season moves didn’t improve this team at all, but for some reason people forced themselves to believe otherwise. I pity the fool who put their faith in these unproven players and illogical tactics
This team has a great chance to go 0-16 this year. Detroit last year was better than the Browns this year; they actually had offense even though we have a somewhat better defense. If not for the give-away score at the end of the vikings game, it would be a 9 game scoreless streak that would probably last a couple more games.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
It’s been said over and over, but the major cogs of this team went 10-6 in 2007. I think coaching is far more worthy of blame.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
No. A team with a 2 year younger and hungry Jamal Lewis, Kellen Winslow, a Braylon Edwards who was looking to prove himself, Derek Anderson at QB, and a real right side of an offensive line.
rose_11 - September 21, 2009
i actually think the 2007 schedule is far more worthy of credit. it’s becoming abundantly clear that ’07 was an aberration…remarkably easy schedule (i think we had 1 win against a team that finished .500 or better), and insane injury luck.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
i was just about to post this. Our schedule was crazy easy that year and our production started to dramatically decline near the end of the year.
Its funny because I was telling people that off-season we should trade DA while his stock was still high and we could get a crap-load for him and work with Quinn. Low and behold he stunk the next year and now DA sits on the bench with low trade value.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
Actually, other than the Cincinnati flame out that team got better as it went along. It’s also worth noting that the Steelers went 10-6 against the same schedule. SOS is always a way overemphasized when one looks at years in the NFL.
I agree we should have traded DA. That was Savage’s greatest mistake, probably more than all his others combined.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
i’m no savage supporter, and i actually won’t even throw the guy in the pit for the lack of DA trade…hindsight is 20/20, but that would have been a really risky move at the time.
retrospectively, SOS is very telling.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
The thing about a DA trade though is that we didn’t even have to facilitate it. There were teams willing to sign him as a restricted free agent which would have automatically have given us a 1st and 3rd round pick. Savage could have done nothing and collected the picks. The Cowboys weren’t even rumored to be the team that was going to sign him, they were on the verge of it happening and then flipping him to Baltimore. Savage heard Baltimore, got nervous, and choked.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
that’s a great point. the 1st and 3rd tender was actually the right thing to do…once they signed him, though, i’m not sure a 1st and 3rd was in the cards as a trade, and it would have been a hard sell.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Agree. Once the Browns inked Derek, he was ours to keep.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
I feel like I thought we should sign him to the 1st and 3rd (at the time) and hope that someone would give that to us.
Retrospectively, that was absolutely the right move.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Even during DA’s “big year” he still looked bad in my opinion. If it weren’t for Kellen and Edwards(before his hands got that nifty teflon coating) making spectacular catches on a regular basis, we would have been lucky to win 6.
Clevsports - September 21, 2009
I am most frustrated at the fact that I have seen this all before. I was never a fan of the Mangini hire, due to the fact that he seemed a lot like Crennel.
After two weeks, its like Romeo never left. I look around the league and see new coaches re-energize franchises and fan bases. Yesterday looked like week 12-16 for us last year.
This is all too familiar.
Bernie19Kosar - September 21, 2009 via mobile
very true.
if we go 2-14, what do you guys think the chances of mangini being fired are?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Hopefully 100%. We have choices: Cowher, Gruden, Shanahan, Marty, Tressel (after this yr at OSU)
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
tressel?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
That was kind of a joke. Can’t imagine his coaching style in the NFL would do anything.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
oh, ok. i was like what the heck? lol
emily522 - September 21, 2009
actually, not sure who would be a good coach. I think we need to improve the whole organization, from the top down. We need Ozzie Newsomeback!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
Kosar for coach!! He could get trashed and rip the whole team a new one from the sidelines! Just spin him around a few times and point him toward the coaching area, he will never know he’s not in the announcer’s box and that it’s not preseason!!
lost dog - September 23, 2009
i hate that speech as well, but, i think he will do better than what people think in the NFL.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
Cowher turned down the Browns because of his relationship with the Steelers. He will not ever coach for us.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
the part about the steelers is not true…but i agree with you that he will never coach for us — mostly b/c he’s too smart to take on such a horrible job.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I’ve heard otherwise.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
I agree. Bill Cowher will never coach for us!
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
Shanahan not allowed to coach for 2 yrs part of his buyout with Denver
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
well, that sucks.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
link? from my understanding, this is wildly inaccurate.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Not true about Shanahan.
He could have coached this year but decided he needed time to rest and recover. In the mean time, because of his contract, he continues to be paid. I doubt Mangini would be fired after this year anyway but if he does, Shanahan is available.
Just thought you might want to know.
I know things must seem pretty bleak right now, but you Cleveland fans are legendary around the league for your loyalty. Hang in there. Things will get better. We’re all rooting for you.
Trinidad Jack - September 21, 2009
And speaking of still getting paid, if the Browns dumped Mangini after this season and hired someone else they would be paying the new guy, Mangini, and Crennel all at the same time. Right?
JustBob - September 22, 2009
correct
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
No Billick?
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
dude, please stop with the cowher love affair. its not happening. he’s a smart guy, he’ll coach in detroit before “the mistake”
6rings - September 22, 2009
I didn’t realize you knew him.
Brad D - September 23, 2009
Gruden should have been the choice instead of Mangini
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
gruden was still employed by the bucs when we hired mangini, and there was no real reason to expect he’d be fired, or that he would have wanted to come to cleveland upon being fired.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
yep.
rufio - September 23, 2009
I agree
I totally agree mr. bernie19!!! It looked remarkable similar to the Cinci game I went to last year and this looks really bad, really bad, and man, 0-16 is likely. Brady just did not look comfortable, and he held the ball too long…drop back and fire man, I know he can do it, but Jamal is looking old. So…it’s going to be tough to win games. They get chances early and hold early in games, but no punch. Play calling is putrid
psch811 - September 21, 2009
I can’t picture any ex-coach with a currently good legacy taking a job with the Browns. It’s a trap, recipe for failure.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
I give the offense thus far an F—.
Defense gets a C+ (plus for putting up with the offense.)
Players who get an A from me: Phil Dawson, Zastudil.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Oh noes… we are back to cheering for the punter and the kicker. Shades of 3 years ago. Deja Vu all over again.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
3 games in already voting Dawson the MVP… When do the Cavs start?
Clevsports - September 21, 2009
Joe Thomas has been great so far also.
Bernie19Kosar - September 21, 2009
Yes, one bright spot on offense.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Go Browns!!!!
I think if you got rid of Mangina you would have a pretty good team.
CardsDefense - September 21, 2009
Hahahaha, “Mangina” I haven’t heard that one yet, but I like it!
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
To be honest, we might just be the worst team in the NFL this season. Only time will tell…
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
unquestionably we are. Even the detroit lions squeaked out TD’s last year. Calvin Johnson damn there had more TD’s than our entire offense last year alone.
We just might go 0-16
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
unquestionably? I think there is some question.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
you would be wrong. Detroit was putrid last year but they didn’t get blown out by every team they played, and they also scored every once in a while. In their past 8 games, they had about 15,000% more offense then us
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
Wow, out of 16 tries they didn’t get blown out 16 times?! That’s exactly the same as getting “blown out” in 2 games (one in which we had the lead, the other was a one score game in the 4th).
kwoog - September 21, 2009
Hey… at least we can put it to the test on Nov 22nd… the battle of two teams trying not to have a 0-16 season! Who’d want to miss that? Or will they be trying to have 0-16 seasons to get the first pick? Or will the Rams or Chiefs somehow win the draft derby? I’m on the edge of my seat.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
If we win just 1 game this year, then it is questionable. Are you willing to put your money on 0-14 the rest of the way?
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
we’ll pull a 2007 miami and barely win 1 game.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I still think we win 3 games.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
lions, raiders, chiefs?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
And one real good team we have no business of beating. A la Giants last year.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
wouldn’t that be great if we beat the ravens next week?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I wouldn’t want that. That’ll be like beating the Giants and then everyone goes WE’RE BACK only to find out we’re not.
skipkirk - September 21, 2009
yeah but at least we’d have a win.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
You wouldn’t want us to beat the Forces of Evil and Darkness in the Football Universe? What’s wrong with you, man?
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
Yea, something like this.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
It’s very, very questionable. Thomas and Rogers alone are more valuable than the entire 2008 Lions team.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
ever heard of calvin johnson and kevin smith?
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
Yes.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
Calvin Johnson, yes. Kevin Smith no effing way.
Thomas is the most valuable of all 4 of those guys. Then probably Johnson, but only because of his age relative to Rogers’. Smith is nowhere close.
rufio - September 22, 2009
I have no doubt that Brady Quinn was the best fit for the offense that Mangini wanted to run this year.
Problem is this offensive scheme SUCKS! Dink and dunk doesn’t work in this league anymore. Even Chad Pennington, who has the weakest arm of any current starting quarterback (arguably only Shaun Hill is worse) still gets to throw down the field and spread the offenses out.
The safeties play up on us on EVERY. PLAY. They never drop back. Braylon and Josh are running terrible routes and not getting open. None of them are deep routes. Just quick fades or slants. Brady’s running through his progressions at the speed of light. The game is WAY too fast for him right now and before anyone says he did fine last year, bear in mind last year he was new and noone knew what to expect out of him. Also bear in mind that he ran play action and screens WAY more than they are right now.
Our OL is partially to blame, but Brady looks downright terrified out there, like David Carr about six weeks into his rookie year.
You can only blame the D so much when they keep the game close for 3 quarters and gas in the 4th, at which point they’ve been on the field for at least 30 of a possible 45 minutes of game clock.
Ridiculous.
Michael Jay - September 21, 2009
I think the criticism of the playcalling is a little overstated here. Quinn dropped back plenty of times. And the plays were designed with guys going deep. Quinn almost never went to the first option. From watching on the CBS angle, it is impossible to tell if Edwards/Furrey/Massaquoi/Cribbs are not getting open or if Quinn just doesn’t trust his arm or doesn’t see them. At least on one sack in the 4th quarter yesterday, tehre was a replay showing an open WR (I think Cribbs) coming out of a break on a deep post and had a step on his man. But Quinn missed him and took the sack.
Checkdowns are an effective option in the NFL- ask the Raiders defense about Darren Sproles, but they are never the number 1 option in a play design.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
You know, this is good point. I really don’t feel like I can tell from the television coverage whether and/or how often our WRs are getting open. Big question mark there.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
bottom line: who the hell knows what’s going on? lol
emily522 - September 21, 2009
From most accounts I have read, Edwards was open a lot.
The problem is that a player does not have to be WIDE open to target him for a pass. Let your talent (Edwards) make a play.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
That’s what I’ve been thinking.
Quinn (this may be per coaches’ instruction) will not throw into coverage. He only will throw to the most open guy on each play. Shouldn’t there be some sort of risk/reward assessment? It seems that Quinn would prefer to throw to a wide open guy at the line of scrimmage than a loosely covered receiver 20 yards downfield. I understand avoiding throwing into tight coverage, but this is ridiculous.
Bumblyjack - September 21, 2009
We will do nothing on offense this year, unless it changes. Our running game is already a lost cause for the season. We need to take some shots downfield.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
funny…quinn may have been the right quarterback for the offense that the manginis WANTED to run…but da may be the right quarterback for the offense that the (epically atrocious) talent on that side of the ball will ALLOW us to run.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I’ve been advocating a Madden-angle on TV on this site for almost two years. Write your congressman!
kwoog - September 21, 2009
You know, I have this fantasy in which complete multi-camera raw footage dumps of games are made available to sites like this one in real time, to be sliced and diced on the fly, mashed up, voice-overed, white-boarded, and commented on by the fans. It’s barely technically possible at this point and it’s a challenge to see how the NFL could make money from this, but it’s a dream….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
i believe their call it… advertising. :)
themadlibs - September 22, 2009
Given how this fantasy would allow us to dump the crappy camera coverage on the networks and replace it with our own multicamera arrangements, and replace the lame play-by-play featuring fellatio of Shannon Sharpe with, say, a DBN booth team of rufio, kwoog, and BQiB, with Moon as color commentator (!) I think it’d be a blow to the NFL’s television ratings numbers.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
If you watch closely, which is difficult because you have to wait for the camera to swerve from the quarterback to eligible receivers, you will notice that on deep balls the quarterback can not wait to see if his guy is beating the defensive backs. He has to air it out before it is discernable if the receiver will get open. That is why tall strong receivers such as Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson are so coveted, they are built to break away on the latter part of the long fly pattern, and to win the jump ball. They are specialist for these nonsensical hail mary patterns. In tandem with their respective quarterbacks they form circus acrobatic acts.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
This is accurate….
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
oh no, i think i’ve agreed with moon on something…
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
This is not true, you can tell that the WR will get open, but I do agree that you need to throw to a guy before he is open.
rufio - September 22, 2009
See, this is informative. So besides the complete jump ball scenarios where we might take a chance on Edwards coming down with it, do we think our guys are consistently getting in that ‘will-be-open’ position, and just not getting the chance to make the play?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
Honestly, no one watching on TV would be able to know for every play. The only times I would be able to tell are on the special replays where you can see the WR’s whole route (a reason the “Madden angle” would be phenomenal).
As soon as I feel like I can handle watching the tape without drinking a 6 pack and I get some freedom from grad school, this is one of the things I am interested in looking at.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Cool. I’ll be very interested in your take on this.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 23, 2009
Thank you for making a smart post
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
you’re right. we haven’t seen any play-action or screens!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Like that would make a difference the way we run the ball.
skipkirk - September 21, 2009
False. I have seen Braylon and Cribbs run vertically out of the screen over and over, then to have the TEs and backs run shorter routes, and St. Clair give up a sack.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Three observations...
1. Cribbs is not a wide receiver. Cribbs will never be a wide receiver.
2. John St. Clair is awful.
3. Brian Daboll is this years Mel Tucker. In waaaay over his head.
e.c. matter - September 21, 2009
Why not?? What is the difference between catching from a QB or a punter?? He makes the moves after and has the speen. He is trying to do to much!!
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
Disagree. Route running is hugely important to being a successful WR in the NFL. As is straight line speed. One can easily succeed as a KR, but not as a WR.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Agreed but if your QB can’t throw deeper than 20 yds accurately are we really going to get good clean open routes?? They were getting drilled after the catch yesterday!
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
There’s more to being a wide receiver than catching the ball. I can catch a football.
e.c. matter - September 21, 2009
I agree 100% with all of this.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
likewise. at least in his first year, chud stole stuff from other guys who knew what they were doing… daboll seems like he’s making up the plays on the sideline.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I could make up better plays on the sideline. And no, I don’t think I would be a good OC, Daboll has just been that bad.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Between Mangini’s thumb and forefinger in that picture up top here? Our offensive game plan.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
I hate the “bill belicheck tree” of coaches. randy lerner, when you do this again in a year or two, please stay away from these guys.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
I’ve been saying that for sometime now.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
The defense looks great, we haven’t had any pass rush in ten years it’s there, but they cannot be on the field the entire game!! 1,2,3, Quinn is not the QB!! I don’t know what anyone saw in the preseason but I saw him not able to move the ball against Detroit!! He is pathetic and the other teams know this, Denver was playing 10 men in the box because they know Baby Quinn can’t throw over 20 yds accurately!! this is Killing our run game also. No O-line can protect their QB for 5-9 seconds Baby is holding on too long. DA is not our savior but he moves the ball and makes the D play the threat of the deep pass!! Alex Mack is horrible also!! So aggravated !!
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
this game against the ravens is going to be brutal. they are good in all phases and strong at every position. here we are with a qb that looks just like tim couch or charlie frye.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
All this, and it’s two games into Mangina’s four year tenure.
God help us.
Pruitt - September 21, 2009
Oh man! I know where you are coming from
Jamal Lewis is done. He is lumbering like an old man. He cannot turn the corner and looks pathetic when he trys. Your young WRs look like rookies. Give them time they will be good. Edwards caught some passes he would have dropped last year so that is better.
Your Oline is playing poorly considering the talent level. I would look at coaching.
You have 2 starting QBs. The problem is that they are constantly looking over their shoulder and playing so tight, ever fearful of making a mistake because they worry Mangini will just pull them if they have a bad game and this causes them to have bad games.
All of this speaks to coaching. I fear that Mangini is just not a good fit but maybe it will just take time. You guys will have to be patient. I know from where I speak. I am a Bengals fan. I am not a troll – believe me – but man you guys look completely lost on the field. Good luck against the Ravens/ You are going to need it.
JUNGLEJOHN - September 21, 2009
“You have 2 starting QBs. The problem is that they are constantly looking over their shoulder and playing so tight, ever fearful of making a mistake because they worry Mangini will just pull them if they have a bad game and this causes them to have bad games.”
not trying to make excuses for quinn, but that’s definitely possible. it’d be the same way for DA, too, i’m sure.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
After Brady’s past 2 starts he should be pulled!! worse than Charlie Frye!!!
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
i supported him starting, but if he doesn’t start showing up i give him 8-10 games.
i’m starting to think that neither of them are the answer.
so guys… mccoy or bradford?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
if quinn hasn’t turned it around by the 4th game at home against cinci, the boos will be embarrasingly loud to all watching at home on tv. this will be quinn’s last start for the cleveland browns.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
idk. mangini made a big deal about choosing the qb. how bad would it look if he pulls quinn? his ego probably can’t take it.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Tebow!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
he’s going to be a bust.
i’d take mccoy over bradford.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
plus the jags are already saying that they're drafting him
emily522 - September 21, 2009
trust me, we’re going to finish worse than the Jags!!!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
oh i know. but if they want tebow that badly, they’ll trade for a high pick.
oh hey, maybe mangini can hand it to them ours just like he did for his FORMER team!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
exactly!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
i know the jets have more to work with, but is anyone else thinking, “dammit we could’ve drafted sanchez!”
emily522 - September 21, 2009
we could have, although most of probably think Brady would have been better, and, I hope he proves us wrong and steps it up a few notches.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
me too.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Yeah the Sanchez thing was sort of amazing. When you get a high draft pick it is a chance to get franchise-type players. It doesn’t seem like it is ever a good idea to parley that into a lot of non-franchise-type players. Just a thought with the caveat that hindsight is 20/20.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
Sanchez is playing behind a very good OL. Quinn is playing behind a dominant left side, a rookie center, and two bullfighters on the right.
rufio - September 22, 2009
And there, my friend, you have hit on the solution.
Give St. Claire a cape and a sword.
JustBob - September 22, 2009
I do not even wanna imagine a QB competition with 3 in it. It was enough DA v Quinn.
There would have probs been no competition, but the media would’ve killed it.
skipkirk - September 21, 2009
That’s the rap on him, but, he’s tough, he’s smart and he wins. I’d take a guy like that over a “pure” qb anyday.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
this is the NFL. It takes more than a speech and popularity to be successful
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
the guys at espn are in love with him. if i had to hear about that stupid speech (which is now engraved on a plaque, btw) i was going to puke.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I wonder if Tebow might be good for 1 year like Jim McMahon… then they’d carry him off the field in a stretcher from the SUPER BOWL!
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
if the browns are going to draft a qb, it’s going to be bradford or mccoy. possibily that dude from ole miss and hall from byu. can’t speak for those 2 b/c i know nothing about them.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Claussen? Is he likely to come out? Is he on the same level as those other guys?
Chemo - September 21, 2009
i haven’t watched claussen a ton, b/c i hate ND (says the quinn fan lol). but that’s a possibility, too.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
the thing about claussen though is that i think it’d take him a few seasons to really develop, though. so if we want a quick fix, he’s not the answer.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Clausen’s accuracy was not good in the michigan game.
rufio - September 22, 2009
25 for 42, 336 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT. seems OK to me. Do you mean that you thought even his completions were not accurate in that he did not hit the WR in stride?
fivekmd - September 22, 2009
Clausen is very good, but I doubt he will go pro
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
That’s below 60% against michigan, who doesn’t exactly have the best pass defense in the world.
There were some completions where he did not hit his receivers in stride, and there were also some throws that just completely got away from him.
It was just one game, and I have not watched ND enough to know if this happens consistently. By all accounts he seems like at least a solid pro prospect.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Also, Pryor’s stat line against Toledo looks pretty good, but he had some awful mechanics on some of his throws, and some terrible decisions.
Just so I’m not being a complete OSU homer.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Pryor looks nothing like a pro QB at this point – he’s a long, long way from being a finished product. The natural ability is clearly there, but he has a lot of work to do before he can be regarded as a consistent threat with his arm.
drjeo - September 23, 2009
He actually looked like he regressed in the Toledo game. His mechanics were pretty good vs Navy, a little worse against USC (to be expected because he was playing a very good, fast D), but then horrible last week.
He’s a sophomore, though. I think he will be able to put it together for the Buckeyes.
rufio - September 23, 2009
His WRs were also getting held a lot and there were a few costly drops
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 23, 2009
If we draft Tebow to be our QB, I quit as a fan.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
I'm kind of sick of drafting QBs in general
muhawk83 - September 22, 2009
the browns drafting tebow would actually make sense!
6rings - September 22, 2009
Yeah, come to think of it, we do miss Winslow right now.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
yes
I agree, give him 4 games, and then make a move. Let him sit a while and wipe the sweat from his brow. Brady’s a nice guy, but man, he’s playing so tight, my god, he looks like he’s on speed!!!
psch811 - September 21, 2009
i think that mangini and daboll need to sit down and tell brady that if he throws a pick in a game, they’re not going to immediately bench him. i think that’s a small part of the reason why he’s playing this way.
i could totally see mangini going: “ok, brady. it’s yours. oh, by the way… don’t screw it up!”
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Yes… tell him everything is OK and give him a blankey.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
oh, haha. funny.
i’m not saying coddle him. i’m saying that maybe if he stops looking over his shoulder he’ll play better! get some confidence.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
No clue??? No, I don’t know Lerner personally, but that doesnt matter, actions speak louder. Aston Villa FC is more of a concern to him. And, my words aren’t out of ignorance, they’re opinion, and mine is he isnt as concerned about the Browns as owners who have winning organizations in the NFL are of their teams. I liked Al Lerner, I think he was on the right track.
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
Aston Villa should be, they are a much more successful club playing a much larger sport for a much larger audience.
Brad D - September 22, 2009
It's Bradford or Snead.
Not McCoy. McCoy doesn’t have a big enough arm to warrant a top-5 pick. There are also many other positions to consider as well. Eric Berry the safety out of Tennessee will also warrant consideration. He’s one of the best players in the country. Cleveland will also have their pick of many talented Florida defensive players. Carlos Dunlap (DE) is my favorite.
Of course ManKok will probably trade down and take the best long snapper on the board.
DoomsdayD75 - September 23, 2009
I think the top defensive talent is good enough this year that if we trade down, it will be a massive mistake. Last year I understood it because I didn’t think there was a surefire pick outside of Aaron Curry (damn you, Seattle!)
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
i love dunlap, and would love to see b. spikes in brown pants (with no stripes).
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
I really like Jahvid Best. Maybe if we had him we would actually score
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 23, 2009
I support continuing to give BQ the rope. If he hangs himself with it, fine. If he pulls himself up with it, that’s fine too. One way or the other, we’ll know and the question will be settled.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
pretty much my thoughts. if he improves (like i really really really hope he will), fine. if he doesn’t, then we start the whole process over, or go long-term with DA.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
very similar to charlie frye. if he elevates his play a little, he will be equal to tim couch.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
Thanks for the comments. I can’t find anything I disagree with.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
our other WRs...
what i wanna know is: where are robiskie and massaquo?
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Getting the Romeo treatment.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Robiskie is hurt, got hurt diving for Quinns passes all week in practice
mooredaddy - September 21, 2009
I love this site… it can be such a laugh when I feel like crying. Thanks folks!
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
what I find very discouraging is that none of our draft pick have had any relevance so far. Not even minimal.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
Funny how we had a shot at Rey Maualuga in the second round.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
[EDIT]
Funny howDiscouraging to know that we had a shot at Rey Maualuga in the second round.Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
everyone on this board was defending our choices but I was the only one saying this was the most wasted draft I’ve ever seen and we had so much leverage. it’s still early but Its not looking so good
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
you are the only one? lots of people were dissappointed with that draft.
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
It’s the kind of draft that looks bad in the short term, but pays dividends two or three years from now. While center and inside linebacker and possession receiver aren’t particularly exciting picks, filling those positions with competent players is a necessity.
e.c. matter - September 21, 2009
Any comments about perceived leverage are pure conjecture.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
having the slotted pick for a franchise QB that many teams wanted and were willing to trade for along with 3 2nd round picks isn’t leverage?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
All of that is pure conjecture. The number 5 pick was as much poison as it was anything, Sanchez or not.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
There was a lot of back and forth on the draft, any sign of consensus group-think is just you having a selective memory.
One thing I will grant you is that fans of a team will probably be more positive than negative no matter what when it comes to something like a draft which is supposed to be a vehicle for hope for the future. If you prefer everyone be disappointed all the time even when its merited, you are going to be disappointed the majority of the time. Fans will find positives whenever possible. Otherwise, why watch?
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Sadly Mack has been relevant in a negative way.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Seriously… my ten year old niece can hike the ball better… i kid you not. I never realized it took so much skill to throw the ball throw your legs without hitting yourself in the @ss until Mack started playing
Clevsports - September 21, 2009
*through
Clevsports - September 21, 2009
Alex Mack?
rufio - September 22, 2009
momass, robiskie, and davis (once he’s better) need to all receive some big playing time.
sorry cribbs, you aren’t a #2 wr. maybe #4.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
i just wanna know this...
how come the browns just can not get a franchise qb?
matt ryan. joe flacco. mark sanchez.
how come it always works out for these teams? hell, matt cassel was great last year and he didn’t even start at USC! i mean, come on!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
bad luck
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
rothliesberger, mcnabb were both passed on also
rockybrown - September 21, 2009
tom brady too, by every team in the nfl!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
you have a very appropriate username btw haha
emily522 - September 21, 2009
its very true, sad watching our team every Sunday!
sad dawg - September 21, 2009
its cleveland………get some!
6rings - September 22, 2009
Who left the door open?
Bernie19Kosar - September 23, 2009
This must have lost something in the translation to English.
drjeo - September 23, 2009
We’re doomed, cursed, screwed…..
Does anyone else ever feel kind of bad for the players we draft just knowing they’ve just joined the modern day venus fly trap of the NFL, it’s black hole. I mean these are often promising young men, looking forward to their potentially bright football futures, and they never saw it coming. Like hitting a brick wall at 80 miles per hour, they got drafted by the Cleveland Browns.
:(
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
haha yeah i definitely see what you’re saying.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
It almost makes you feel bad for Rogers and Thomas… EXCEPT for the fact that they are millionaires! I feel better now.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
haha!
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Good point.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
Ryan and Flacco have a whole 1 year. Flacco wasn’t even that good. Sanchez about 3 good quarters in his career. Let’s not go assume they are franchise QBs.
There is no consistent formula for finding the real franchise QBs. For every consensus top 3 pick (i.e. Manning) there is a Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, etc. that come from pretty much nowhere. Some of it is just bad luck.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
good point
emily522 - September 21, 2009
How bad was Favre his first year with the Falcons?
elsandito - September 21, 2009
very true. same with peyton manning.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, and Mark Sanchez are far from proven QBs. Of the 3, Ryan is the only one who really appears to know what he’s doing out there.
BTW, Sanchez looked horrible for the entire first half against the Patriots. Then he had a couple mediocre drives in the second and ended up with 50% completion percentage, 160 yards, and 1 TD. Quinn did just as well against the Vikings.
Bumblyjack - September 21, 2009
Also, all 3 of those guys play with some pretty solid talent around them. Matt Ryan had 2 1st round WRs around him, he’s got Turner and Norwood, and now Gonzo.
Flacco has the Ravens’ defense and running game.
Sanchez walked on to a 10-6 team with a great OL and a pretty good running game.
rufio - September 22, 2009
A team Mangini helped build, by the way.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
The Raven’s defense gave up 400+ yards through the air to the Chargers. Flacco threw two touchdowns to help us win. He has five touchdowns after two games. Your argument had more truth last season, but there will be a time, in the very near future, where your argument will not be arguable any longer. Flacco will be one of the great ones.
I’m not trolling guys. I just stopped by to read your sentiments on this week’s game and happened to see a comment on Flacco.
BAL_Hawk - September 23, 2009
Tell me your defense and running game aren’t good.
I wasn’t trying to argue that Flacco won’t be able to develop into a HOFer or a star or a good player, I was saying that he has a pretty good situation in which to develop.
Compare that situation to Tim Couch’s, and which one do you think makes for an easier transition?
rufio - September 23, 2009
Fair enough.
I didn’t really follow the conversation far back enough. I didn’t realize that you were exclusively talking about the situations that rookies have been placed into. Granted… Flacco had it much easier than Quinn does this season, but we should not discount what he has brought to Baltimore. There is NO WAY that the Ravens would be having as much success recently without him.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to a good game this weekend. As bad as you guys (and others) think it will be, I’m not discounting the Browns. They’ve always played tough against the Ravens.
BAL_Hawk - September 23, 2009
wow…mark sanchez…after 2 nfl games? USC quarterbacks are not at all productive in the NFL…we’ll see. Just to be sure, the all-time leader in yards for USC QBs in the NFL is…..Rodney Peete. Not exactly spectacular. Matt Cassell?! The product of the system in New England…Just don’t screw it up. Horrible with the Chiefs, thus far, injury or not.
We will NEVER have a ‘franchise QB’ until there is a running game and a blocking scheme that can prevent repetitive sacks. With a young QB, a conservative system, run by an experienced and confident offensive coordinator is a must…We have none of the above. I am confident Sanchez would be in the same situation as BQ had the Browns drafted and started him.
guambrownsfan - September 21, 2009
ok, mark sanchez is a bad example. i just listed the rookie qbs who’ve not screwed up in the last 2 years lol.
and cassel, i’m not saying he’s great but he did well for not even starting in college. if that’d been the browns relying on him, it would have been the last 7 games of ‘08 all season long. i haven’t followed how he’s done since joining the chiefs.
my point is just that how come so many of these 1st round picks seem to work out for everyone but the browns? or the one we could have drafted ends up being amazing?
i’m just glad we didn’t draft stafford. he kind of sucks so far…
emily522 - September 21, 2009
oops i mean in the last year
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Totally agree with the Stafford comment…lol I just think relying on a young, inexperienced QB to carry a team out of a dismal funk that has basically existed since 1999, is an improbable task. Peyton Manning did it to an extent, but he did have Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison. Once an o-line was put into place, it was lights out. And that is Peyton! Again, I just don’t think we will have a ‘franchise QB’ until the other issues are resolved, regardless of who is drafted.
Not all ‘franchise QB’ draft picks work out. Other examples of the Browns woes include, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith, et al., and the Browns didn not pay nearly as much, at least in the draft, for BQ or DA. BTW, Peyton’s rookie year was ROUGH…He just had to play through it and then they built him a line.
guambrownsfan - September 21, 2009
+1,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
When your wideouts are Braylon, a kick returner, and a retread from Detriot and two rookies, please. Hey Quinn needs to play better, but come on. Jamal is done, Davis and Harrison have both been hurt. This teams need to be able to run the football on a consistent basis.
Grockcubs - September 21, 2009
Carson Palmer is pretty good.
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
yeah, he’s very good. also, comments like “XX position from YY school aren’t good” are pretty useless. it’s never that cut and dried.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
Browns
its possible the offense has actually taken a step back from the previous year if thats possible. My biggest concern now is not if the Browns can win a game that in itself would be a miracle. Im just hoping they can score a relevant touchdown at some point. I mean even the 0-16 Lions last yr could score touchdowns on offense. Browns can’t even seem to do that. Its so hard to watch these guys play its almost like watching the Harlem Globetrotters play against kindergardners every Sunday. I know its only 2 games in but man these guys just look awful except on special teams.
Cavs4 life - September 21, 2009
It Ain't Lookin Good
Im actually regretting getting tickets to the Bills game in Buffalo now….it feels like it will just be total waste of my time and money AGAIN!!!!!
psch811 - September 21, 2009
Bummer
BLAZER_FAN_199 - September 21, 2009
I guess I'll just enjoy the tailgating
psch811 - September 21, 2009
hey this is really random, but how do you get that quote above your signature for each post?
“It’s tough,” Martinez said. “This is my house. This is my home.”
We’ll miss you, Vic
^i’m talking about that
emily522 - September 21, 2009
nvm i figured it out
emily522 - September 21, 2009
I have Monday Night Football tickets and I WILL HAVE FUN!!!!
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
don’t they play monday night vs. baltimore?
that’ll be more like monday night slaughter.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
LOL… I’ll bring a poncho like you have to when you go see Galagher. Then I won’t get any blood stains on my white Browns T-shirt.
Brownsyup - September 21, 2009
This comment section is so funny yet so depressing at the same time.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
i know.
oh! i can name one person who did worse than quinn yesterday…
jamarcus russel: 7/24. at least we don’t have him.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Glass half-full: We have Joe Thomas and not Jamarcus Russell.
Glass half-empty: We have Joe Thomas and not Adrian Peterson.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
i prefer half full.
james davis needs to share carries with jamal or at least get some more playing time when he gets better. i’m a clemson fan and he was awesome. too bad we won’t be getting cj spiller for that thunder/lightning combo.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
browns
mangie stinks should of got cowler or the recent tampa coach .the browns were a great organization one time,what happend?
JEETS - September 21, 2009
Mangie? That’s a new one. But is it a typo or a slur? Your post leaves much doubt…. about some things.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 21, 2009
the worst thing....
…about this team is that no matter how bad they are doing, you continue to watch them. because you think that if you don’t, you’ll miss the one time they have an amazing game or make a big play, etc. then the game ends, they lose by 28, and you think “wow… what a waste of 3 hours that was!”
maybe that’s just me, though lol
emily522 - September 21, 2009
This product that is on the field is a product of 1999. The Browns since Dwight Clark, Butch Davis, Savage and now George K. and Mangini, have had terrible drafts. This team with its numerous coaching changes, coaching techniques, QB changes, bust on the free agent market ( Bentley, Stallworth etc..) has always played catch up, well the shit has caught up.
This team is way behind on talent level, it is to obvious. I just can’t see Lerner firing Mangini after one year, even though this team will be hard pressed to get 3 wins. ( I predicted 7-9, thats about as much as I know). I live on the east coast and listen to WFAN out of New York, and boy are they glad Mangini has left town.
What do you do? I really think you have to make some trades, Edwards and Quinn or Anderson and get numerous draft picks. This team needs game changing type players, and one has to be at running back.
This year will be ugly. I was and am a Quinn supporter, but Brady you need to step up. But you know, this is a whole team problem, this is not just Quinn. I think given solid talent he can win in this league.
Sadly, I just shrug it off, it has been 44 years of being a fan. I get to the point that a mediocre to a poor team is what to expect, this year will be no different. Boy, long for the days of Bernie Kosar.
Grockcubs - September 21, 2009
Terry Pluto did a fine series of articles several years ago on the rebirth of the Browns that came to the conclusion that other NFL owners were so pissed off by the early success of the Jacksonville and Carolina expansion franchises that they changed the expansion rules to the point where Cleveland was pretty much guaranteed failure for the first few years. The NFL allegedly deliberately held up the process of choosing which ownership group would get the new Browns intentially to delay the process. No expansion team ever had as little time to put together their franchise management team as the new Browns ownership did.
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
I’ve seen this analysis and I think you can blame the first 3 or 4 years on it but not the last 6…
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
“Despite back-to-back poor outings by quarterback Brady Quinn, Browns coach Eric Mangini said Monday he plans to stick with him.
”Yes, definitely,‘’ Mangini said.
Mangini said Quinn made some really good decisions in Sunday’s 27-6 loss to the Broncos "and there were some plays where he could’ve done a better job.‘’
Mangini acknowledged that the quarterback gets "a lion’s share of the credit and the lion’s share of the blame’’ but indicated that many things around Quinn didn’t go well, including protection breakdowns.
He said sometimes a pass that looks way off is the result of an errant route, or a back might not be in position for a checkdown.
“(Quinn) works at it, which is the most important thing,‘’ said Mangini.
Quinn’s rating through two games has dipped to 66.9, which was 28th out of 32 heading not counting the Mondayy Night Football game. Quinn will start Sunday in Baltimore.”
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Good, and as expected. Mangini’s not going to run for the exit. BQ’s going to get his rope!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
since this is a venting thread…
right now, this feels worse than any other year of our reincarnated history, even though it’s only 2 games. the offense is completely disgusting, and looks to have very little hope of improving behind the horrible brady quinn. i’m also not seeing anything in particular out of this team that makes me think, “well, at least mangini has them doing XX” about which i can be optimistic.
that’s a vent, though. i’m trying very hard to remind myself that i thought both quinn and mangini were good picks at the time that they were picked to do their respective jobs, and i shouldn’t really be swayed from that very much by a mere 2 games. but it is awfully GD hard to stay rational at a time like this.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
I don’t know, giving up on last year was pretty terrible after a 10-6 season.
Also, after the Steelers blowing us out game one of 2007 was pretty low. Charlie Frye traded after the game. I don’t know if feel that bad yet.
Plus, this is the first year for Mangini. You gotta expect that this is going to be a process.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
Worst feeling I have had is the Cincy game with the playoffs on the line. I just had the gut feeling that it would be our best shot at playoffs for awhile.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Two worse moments – losing the playoff game to the
@#$ Steelers after gaining what should have been an insurmountable lead.
Sitting in a Steelers bar in Port Charlotte, FL on the Christmas holiday with my Steelers-fan wife watching the Browns get rolled 41-0 in a Browns Stadium filled with Terrible Towel waving
#%$% Steelers fans while Hines Ward waved his Terrible Towel on the sideline.woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
As far as a best moment goes… I took my son down to one of the only games he has ever seen last year. It was a beautiful autumn evening. We tailgated with some friends and had a blast playing parking lot football. As the game approached we started walking towards the stadium. We were quite a ways away so we hit parking lot after parking lot filled with Browns fans getting rowdy and having a great time. The stadium was electric and it was so cool to see my son’s eyes grow big as he took it all in. It was a Monday night. It was Browns vs Giants and the football Gods were smiling on Cleveland. As strange as it sounds, that one night made all the rest of the bad times worth it.
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
But I ask the question what made everyone so optimistic about the browns in the first place? was it wishful thinking or did anyone seriously think we improved that much with our non-impactful moves this off-season?
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
Probably a mix of
1. Wishful thinking
2. New coach, fresh approach
3. Whether you like it or not, we had some marginal upgrades to the team through the off season
Were we that optimistic though? I think the highest win prediction I saw was 8. That seems pretty negative to me. Maybe, 2-3 wins was more realistic, but who wants to be it sucks being that negative before the season even starts.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Sorry for the edit fail in the last sentence, hopefully you understood my point.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
I don’t mean any offense in this post so don’t take it that way. But me being the realistic all off season and challenging the positions many people on this board took this off-season…..yes, you all were that optimistic. Looking at the offseason as a whole, everyone thought we had a successful draft justifying the skipping of Rey and other players while not being that bothered about trading down for table scraps.
Everyone thought the signing of mediocre players like Rod Hood, despite the fact he came from a crap secondary, would improve our defense.
Everyone thought the bringing of all these Jet leftovers would improve our team also.
Everyone thought BQ would be playing well and Edwards would go back to his 2007 self. That’s all VERY optimistic for a team who hadn’t scored in 6 games.
And regardless of whoever wants to admit it or not posters thought we’d beat the vikings of all teams, and many thought we’d be a .500+ team.
Many people constantly defended mangina and his style and all of his moves. And people still continue to damage control by doing stuff like giving the defense props for actually playing defense for half a game, then getting obliterated the other half.
I’m not saying everyone thought the browns would be back to their 2007 selves(some did though) but it funny seeing everyone blindly get their hopes up, and after these epic phails acting so heartbroken about it.
The Licensed Pessimist - September 21, 2009
Again, I think if you’d go back to the predictions thread, you’d see cautious optimism. If the high end of expectations was 8-8, I really don’t think there is anything to get too critical about. Only a select few thought above .500. (I think I put myself down for 7 or 8 because of the schedule), but if you read through the posts there were a lot of concerns starting with everyone’s fear of an unknown offensive coordinator.
Were we all optimistic? Maybe more than you, but I really don’t think you can call a group of fans who don’t expect to make the playoffs “optimistic.” That said, 2 games into the season, you appear to have a better grasp. It’s going to be like this every year though, we will probably overestimate how good our team is.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Yeah, I’m with Roger on this. And the Vikings are a top tier team. The Broncos seemed vulnerable, but nobody was thinking we’d win that and go .500+ on the season. I think you have miscalculated expectations for this year. Though the team has failed even the lowest of those expectations so far.
Ryan Kelsey - September 21, 2009
That is where rocland appears to be right thus far, but again the expectations were not as high as he is making them seem.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Anyone would have been better than Cousin.
Anyone would have been better than last year’s Andra Davis. How he has revived his career is beyond me.
rufio - September 22, 2009
I saw a 4-8 team that was competitive against the Steelers, Giants, and Ravens, that upgraded at Center, WR2, RB2, DE1, OLB2, ILB2 and CB3-5. I saw them downgraded at TE and Safety… maybe also RT.
However, the performances have been atrocious, and that includes coaching as much as players, in my opinion. I don’t know what to say. I think it’s telling that we’ve been competitive in the first half, and outscored 41-7 in the second. Does that mean the coaching has a good initial game plan, but by the end of the game our dearth of talent catches up to us? Or does it mean we have the guys to play football, but our coaches are being out-chess-matched by the second half?
kwoog - September 21, 2009
I felt that way last year — it appeared that we would start off well and then fade down the stretch, almost as if teams figured out what we were doing, developed an answer, and we didn’t do the same. That was their MO against the Ravens (twice), the Broncos, and the Colts — even with Ken Dorsey playing. And, we were in striking distance against the Skins.
But this group? I wish that we could blame it on the QB. I thought we might be lucky to reach 6-10, but after seeing those two performances and looking at the schedule…wow.
I live in Central PA and work in Baltimore, so the only thing that makes me happy about this Sunday’s game is that I chose to give up a chance to get tickets for the game — I will be traveling for work. I won’t have to listen to the “local” Baltimore announcing crew, and I won’t have to hear all of the snarky remarks from Ravens fans at work on Monday. Hopefully I’ll be landing in a dry county so I don’t drink myself into oblivion when I land…
Lamont - September 21, 2009
I thought and still think we have talent that we are not using. The defense has looked better—if not as good as an actual NFL defense—but only until it realized the offense is not going to contribute a damn thing.
I have been and continue to be concerned about Daboll. I was optimistic and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far, he is awful. Putrid. Odious. Yes, I went to the thesaurus for those.
I didn’t think we improved that much, but I did think we got a little deeper and addressed some areas we needed to address. I was more optimistic due to Rob Ryan and not having Romeo at the helm anymore.
rufio - September 22, 2009
It’s funny how talking about this epic fail is way more fun than watching it.
Roger Dorn - September 21, 2009
Nothing Is Over!
We’re 0-2.
We played 5 good quarters of defense and 0 of offense but still managed to stay in the games until the 4th quarter.
The players and coaches have a lot of work to do.
They need to fix the right side of the line and complete passes downfield (attempting them would be a start).
If the Browns can make these adjustments on offense then they can be competitive.
If not, they will continue to embarass themselves and disappoint us.
Coaches are hired to solve these problems: It’s up to you, Mangini.
Bumblyjack - September 21, 2009
good post.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
This isn’t venting, but a realistic assessment of the current situation. I couldn’t agree more with your post. It’s hard to remember that this is the first year of a NEW offense with a NEW offensive coordinator and basically a rookie QB who doesn’t want to make mistakes (which by not taking risks is making a mistake).
I thought at prior to the start of the season this year the O-Line would be a strength, but St. Clair is terrible, and Mack (The QB of the Line) has played like a rookie.
The game against the Rat Birds this week will determine if the team has given up. I expect some improvement (not difficult over the past two weeks) against the second hottest team (New Orleans being #1).
As for the coaching, the Rob Ryan has been great with the lack of talent and depth at every position (Rogers excluded). Our ‘star’ safety Sean Jones plays special teams from the Eagles, no other player would start except maybe D Jackson. Our corners are out man’d in every situation. Mangini knows the players from the Jets aren’t world beaters but this team had no depth, no attitude and no talent so getting two out of three is not bad.
Coaching is not our problem at this point, it has been since we got our team back along with the talent but I firmly believe that is not the case. Mangini has gotten rid of nearly all the ‘cancer’ that has plagued this team. Now it’s just time and a little luck (something we haven’t had ever) before things change.
Offense is about rhythm and the Browns have played with two left feet. Quinn has to show something and take a few risks. 10 sacks in two games is bad, with non from Thomas or Steinbach.
Realistically there should not have been expectation of playoffs or even anything but last place in the division, given how well Cinci has played. My expectation is improvement week to week and I hope to see that this week or next week.
Go Browns!
Guage80 - September 22, 2009
Agree with what you said about the offense- Quinn has to show more and take some chances, the right side of the line and Mack must play better or be replaced.
But on defense, I think you are underrating our talent. Not sure what Sean Jones has to do with this team. But there are some bright spots and to say no other player would start is just wrong. Eric Wright would start on every team in the league. McDonald would be at least be a nickleback on 80% of the teams. I personally think Dqwell is nothing special, but he is solid, as is Barton. Add in some young guys that have shown plenty of flashes in the first two games (and in the last few seasons): Elam, Wimbley, Hall. I think there is the base of an average to above-average defense there.
I too like what Ryan has shown so far: Mixing blitzes from all angles with dropping 7 or 8 in effective coverage. Would like to see more big plays from the D though- they seem to be just a step from getting a sack here and an interception there. Hopefully as the unit learns the system and plays together more, this timing will come.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
i’m not sure i’m quite there on the talent of the defense with you, but i do believe that you are spot on about the impending big plays from the defense. as they continue to get more comfortable in the scheme, i think those near misses will turn more and more into sacks and picks.
i think we all need to prepare ourselves for the fact that brady is going to be even worse this week than he was the last two. i realize that philip rivers topped 400 yards last week against the ravens…but if brady was nervous/conservative against minny and den, imagine what he’s thinking going up against the ravens. this qb situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
I think Minnesota’s defense is actually better than Baltimore’s at this point.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
It was the Japs.
skipkirk - September 22, 2009
he’s on a roll, let him go…
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
It’s a Belushi quote from Animal House. It actually fits the situation rather well.
JustBob - September 22, 2009
Please avoid that word. I am half Japanese.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Sorry. No offense meant.
skipkirk - September 23, 2009
Its ok, a lot of people don’t even realize it is offensive to us, which is a whole other tangent…back to footbal!
rufio - September 23, 2009
2 weeks in
I was actually half happy with the loss to Minnesota- a result that could have been an absolute pasting vs a team almost built to trash us.
I flaked out at half time yesterday (am on UTC +1) and still thought we were in there… given up a soft TD on a fumble, but still 10-6 down and looking ok… then the wheels fell off. And f%&* did they fall off.
We are where we are but the last 2 quarters make me wonder where the hell we are going to get to this season.
LondonBrown - September 21, 2009
Brady Quinn reminds me of Tim Couch. I didn’t want him before the season, and I don’t want him now. He lacks arm strength and he isn’t is accurate as claimed. Horse Balls at least gives you the chance for a big play, Quinn does not.
Brad D - September 21, 2009
i disagree on the arm strength, i happen to think he’s got plenty, but it’s a moot point if you don’t use it, right? what appears to be incontrovertible so far is that whatever quinn’s arm strength, he’s either not comfortable or not being asked to throw the ball down the field. either is a problem.
i’m astonished by his lack of accuracy, too. he throws some of the most head-scratching balls i’ve ever seen…he’s spiked at least as many slants and wr screens as you would expect out of horse balls.
this is not starting out well…
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Whoa, whoa, whoa… where did “horse balls” come from as a nickname? I must know!
kwoog - September 21, 2009
this was where i originally heard it. pretty fantastic.
DontCallMeJoey - September 21, 2009
Niiice.
kwoog - September 21, 2009
Is there much a difference between not having the arm strength and not using it?
Brad D - September 22, 2009
Which is not to be a prick but rather to say that I think we agree, just for different reasons.
Brad D - September 22, 2009
Yes, Quinn needs to throw deep (and complete deep passes) more often. A lot more often. He is physically capable of doing it. Just let Braylon make some plays for goodness’ sake.
rufio - September 22, 2009
yeah, i think we are agreeing on the larger issue, which is where i concluded the point is moot. the difference is purely academic…he CAN thrown the ball hard/far, so maybe there’s hope. what is clear is that he’s not throwing it hard/far now.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
I said this months ago and got ripped for it, but I’ll say it again: we’re stuck with two back-up QBs.
Simmsinns - September 21, 2009
well, all we can do now is wait until sunday. i’m done talking about quinn for now. let’s just hope that the run game improves and he can make some plays. i still think we’ll see improvement soon. that’s really all we can do: hope for some changes.
emily522 - September 21, 2009
Lessons Learned
Sometimes lately, I find myself fantasizing (rationalizing really) that the Ravens are really my old Browns and wondering what if we had given Art that damn stadium a couple years sooner.
Then we fired that weird guy who had no personality and went on to win several Super Bowls.
All I’m sayin’ is let’s give these folks a little more time to get their act together. Like em or not, their our guys now. Maybe they can work it out on the field if the fans can just show a little patience. Cripes, we’re only 2 games out of first place!
JustPlainBrowns - September 21, 2009
you are currently my favorite guy….anyone seen “rudy?”
Uriah33 - September 22, 2009
F’q Art… agree with the point though about patients. Proven winning coaches would never leave their job to coach the Browns, I’m a fan willing to give these guys a chance. At least 4 years, though I think we’ll see improvement this season.
Guage80 - September 22, 2009
mental patients?
rockybrown - September 22, 2009
late night post from someone who is simply happy about not having the words underlined ‘dotted red’
Are the grammar lessons free or are you looking for work? (I’m always on the look out for someone to correct my work)
Guage80 - September 22, 2009
While we are at it…Gauge
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Good one.
Brad D - September 22, 2009
I’m gunna save my complete blow up for after Week 4.
Brownie's Year - September 22, 2009
We are an awful football team right now. Just awful. Our offense should be ashamed of itself.
Offseason shopping list:
1. New offensive coordinator. Even someone from a super-gimmicky college offense. Just anyone else, really.
2. A bigtime OLB prospect. Kam has looked good this season, but we need the Shawne Merriman to his Shaun Phillips.
3. A RT. An actual living, breathing RT.
4. A RG. An actual living, breathing RG.
5. Someone very fast who can catch and/or carry the ball.
6. Someone with the potential to be a #1 CB. Don’t get me wrong, I still like Eric Wright, but McDonald isn’t putting himself in position to use his strengths and is not doing a great job right now.
7. Another young OL so we can make sure to cut at least one of Womack/St. Clair.
And I’m not even touching the QB situation. Quinn has not been good thus far, but it is way too early to say he isn’t the guy. Plus, St. Clair is not giving him a chance with all of the false starts/holding calls/lack of pass blocking on his part.
We have better players on offense than we have shown. But we are awful right now.
rufio - September 22, 2009
amen
Guage80 - September 22, 2009
It sucks talking about potential off-season moves in Week 2, but what else can we do?
We might just have to take the real talent we have (Joe Thomas) and rebuild from square one all over again, because we’re currently going nowhere.
Simmsinns - September 22, 2009
There is a solid core of good players, I don’t think it is just Thomas (although he is filthy good) but we are going to need more talent in addition to a much better offensive scheme.
rufio - September 22, 2009
I’ll let you in on a secret- we are rebuilding from square 1. We have been since Mangini took over.
Elam
Coleman
Barton
Bowens
Mack
St. Clair
Womack
MoMass/Furey
That’s about 35% of new starters in one off season. This is a team in transition. Let’s just realize we were never oging to compete this year- despite the NFL’s propensity for quick turnarounds. We are rebuilding.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
I would add a safety to the list. I think Brodney has been really bad thus far and is a free agent after the season.
Also, everyone always says RBs are a dime a dozen, but I actually want the Browns to go out and get one of those dimes for once. Let’s get a running game, please!
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
We can put Eric Berry on that list. We will definitely be high enough in the draft to get him if our offense keeps playing like this.
I would not mind a RB either, but I’d like to not have to draft him. We have a lot of other needs to use our high picks on.
rufio - September 22, 2009
Eric Berry would make me a very happy person, but I can’t let myself get my hopes up with the Browns.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Do you think Kurt Coleman is far behind Berry and Taylor Mays? I haven’t seen enough of Berry to evaluate him and Mays just looks bigger than everyone he plays against.
Coleman has looked outstanding so far this yea.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
Berry is WAY ahead of Coleman
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
No offense, but that’s not really the type of analysis I was looking for.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
I saw Berry on TV this past Saturday, and the one thing that really stuck out for me was that he was always there to greet whoever had the ball. He seemed fast, smart, and very athletic. He dished out some solid hits and I believe he had at least one pick. That was just one game, but it made me realize why some folks are pretty high on him.
JustBob - September 22, 2009
I just love Berry. He has that Ed Reedesque sense about what an offense is doing, where the ball is going, and what individual players are thinking. He’s just got that “it” factor, which is the kind of mystification BS that I hate to use, but this kid just has…it.
Mays is a physical freak. I doubt he runs as fast as some announcers have said, and I wonder why he doesn’t consistently make more big plays and why he isn’t around more balls than he is. I mean, with his size and 4.35 speed (on the slower end of some of the times I’ve heard) he should be making a ridiculous amount of big plays against Pac 10 foes, and more against the OSU’s and Penn St.s of the world. I saw Polamalu in one USC game and I was amazed at how often he was around the ball and how quickly he figured out what was happening—so it shouldn’t be a system thing.
I think Coleman is a really solid player, and I would not mind him on the Browns at all, but I don’t think he is in the class of Berry. He’s had a very good year so far. I’d put Coleman as a high 2nd rounder at this point, with Berry pretty close to the top of the draft board. It is very early, though.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Thanks. I used to think safety was an overrated position, not really worthy of high picks or too high praise. Watching Polamalu, especially since 2008, has totally changed my mind. I still am weary of the “it” factor for safetys, especially for someone like Ed Reed- who just seems to play a deep center field and is a good returner of punts, INTs, fumbles, missed FGs.
Thanks for the bit of analysis though on Berry. Like I said, I haven’t seen enough of him.
Totally agree on Mays. Huge, obviously fast (though I don’t buy sub 4.35 either), but he is underwhelming to watch. Just an intimidating figure that doesn’t seem to make enough plays.
I’m intrigued to see what Berry and Coleman do at the combine. They are nearly the same size and it is hard for me to imagine someone being around the ball much more than Coleman. Hopefully I can catch more of Berry in the coming weeks.
Ryan Kelsey - September 23, 2009
I think Berry is listed at about 10lbs more than Coleman. I think Coleman has beefed up a lot since he arrived on campus, though, so what he is listed at might be off.
The combine will be very interesting for those 3 guys. I would like to see Mays do the 3-cone drill because he hasn’t looked that agile to me on the field. Mays is going to need to validate his freak athleticism and size/speed ratio.
For Berry, I don’t think that will be a place where he has to excel because being a freak isn’t what is going to get him drafted high—his tape alone will do that. You would like to see him validate what you’ve seen on film, run at least respectable times, weigh in at something close to what you thought, etc. Also, I’ve heard he is quite the competitor, so you’d think we would want to be out there working his tail off.
For Coleman, its his chance to impress some people. Nothing to lose, really, but I think he could make some good impressions and surprise some.
rufio - September 23, 2009
things are bad when rufio makes a post like this. i’m staying indoors to avoid the flooding and locusts…
Dawg Nuts - September 22, 2009
Charlie Weis for OC
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
Good analysis
But saying you only need 6 new starters implies that you have 16 good ones already and I can’t get behind that idea. As for Offensive Coordinators, Mike Martz?
Donald Driver - September 22, 2009
I’d take Martz in a heartbeat right now.
I’m not implying we have 16 good starters, getting 6 good starters in one offseason is one tall order. If you added Patrick Willis, Ed Reed, DeMarcus Ware, Adrian Peterson, Andre Johnson, and Steve Hutchinson to our lineups, the other 16 guys would look pretty good. We need 2 or 3 of those caliber of players.
Thomas, Steinbach, Mack, Robo/MoMass, Braylon, Harrison, Rogers, Robaire Smith, Wimbley, DQ, Elam, Pool, Hall, Veikune, and Wright all are good or have the potential to be good. Coleman, Mosley, and Williams are all solid. Francies is promising. The talent situation isn’t that bad.
rufio - September 22, 2009
You're right about the 6 good starters attainability.
I think that’s almost impossible, especially if it’s true that agents are keeping their players from signing with them. And your ignoring the fact that you will lose players in the offseason as well. We all know about the Edwards situation and personally I think that there’s a high chance that you’ll be rolling out a rookie head coach and quarterback the year after next. We haven’t even talked about your depth issues (although I’m not actually sure on that one) and I guess there’s some talent on your team right now but I’d still put it in the bottom 5. If I were you, I might want Martz as the head coach. He has a pretty good track record and his players don’t hate him. None of the players you listed in the first paragraph will ever leave their respective teams. You could pray for Nick Collins though, he’d actually be a better aquisition than Reed and he’s a free agent after the season. But as I was saying, I don’t know when the storm will end in Cleveland. Feel free to vent
Donald Driver - September 22, 2009
Not at all trying to claim that. If you didn’t understand what I was saying, there’s no use in continuing this.
rufio - September 22, 2009
none of these things is true.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
Both are true
He has a 56-36 head coaching record and it was the front office that hated him in St. Louis, not the players. The Rams are 15-28 since he left.
Donald Driver - September 22, 2009
- Coach Eric Mangini talking about meeting up with his family after the Browns lost the opener to the Vikings, 34-20.
Can he throw? Or shotgun snap?
johnnyphoenix - September 22, 2009
“My offensive coordinator, Brian Daboll, (playcalling level of a five year old) after the game said, ‘Who won?’ He was there. That puts it in perspective.”
- Coach Eric Mangini talking about meeting up with his coaching staff after the Browns lost the opener to the Vikings, 34-20.
Fixed.
Bernie19Kosar - September 22, 2009
Offense
Personally speaking, my opinion (see how careful I am to use that word after reading most of this thread already?!) is that the offensive troubles stem from 08 and Romeo Crennel.
No newsflash there, but the rest is going to be slightly controversial to some so bear with me on it.
Romeo never should have yanked Anderson in 08.
It was a weak, spineless, fan-made decision, brought about by fans allowing local sentimentality to run in place of logic.
The problem was simple. In Quinn the team drafted a franchise quarterback who is essentially going to be the face of the Browns for the next 5/6 years at least. This was and continues to be the great hope for Cleveland. When drafted however, Quinn holds-out and so loses any chance to win the starting job outright like Ryan, Flacco, Sanchez or Stafford. In his absence DA comes in and throws 29 touchdown passes that football season. And suddenly you have two very viable options at quarterback going into next season, the guy who got it done but who is inconsistent and who faded down the stretch against the Bengals to cost us a place in the play-offs, or the first round draft pick who has never thrown a pass in the pros but who was a highly touted college quarterback with bags of potential.
From the get-go I think it was a problem that Crennel didn’t want and a problem that he would prove incapable of handling. In my view, when you have two quarterbacks in the manner Crennel did, you go with your guy and you stick with him for the season. You name a guy as the starter as early as possible and then you do everything in your power to put the things around him to ensure he can win. Including belief. You let him know that he’s your guy and that you’ll stick by him, come hell or high-water. A bit like the Cleveland fans support of the team, you back him when he’s up and you back him when he’s down, whether he’s DA or Quinn.
Confidence is a crucial aspect to all professional and indeed amateur sports. In a sport like football, confidence is even more crucial at quarterback. The quarterback is the face of the team, the offense runs directly through his hands and so if you have a quarterback who has to worry about being benched every time he throws an interception or two, you’ve got problems.
So what should have happened was simple. If Crennel knew he was going to eventually gravitate to Quinn, which I believe ultimately he did, he should have done so immediately. Quinn should have started in 08. He was drafted as the face of the franchise, he’s the local kid, no-one would have questioned him starting. Instead Romeo decides to run with the status quo and go with DA, but having the guy play with the axe over his head in the form of Quinn as the first-rounder. The whole season was like a long slow death for DA as Romeo waits for him to publically generate enough rope with which to hang himself.
Now this is where I take issue with the change-up. The whole team were terrible in 08 and I can freely admit, Anderson wasn’t good. But he wasn’t spectacularly (Jake Delhomme late 08 early 09) bad either. Playing against a team like Pittsburgh and lamenting inaccurate throws by the quarterback is like vigorously handling a particularly large cactus without a glove and then wondering why it hurts. It’s going to happen. The Browns play in one of the toughest divisions in football, with defenses made to shut down offenses. Pittsburgh and Baltimore have shut down better offenses than the Browns and will continue to do so. But as we saw in 08 against the Giants, DA has potential against stout defenses. So if you back that potential, then you set about getting your guy a glove with which to handle that cactus in the form of a top quality running back, a solid line and some wide threats.
Instead of reflecting on this and keeping DA as starter through 08 or Quinn if it had been him, we changed up, managed to get both good QBs injured and finished the season with bald Bruce Gradkowski under center, while at the same time alienating our second best wide threat in Winslow. Of course the coach is fired and so we’re rebuilding, again. Offensively all we’ve reaped this season was that we sowed under Crennel the year before.
However all is not lost. Personally I don’t think Mangini is high on Quinn or DA. I personally also think Braylon prefers playing with DA and I think either or both will go next season as collateral for a trade or two. I think this season is a bust-out, but two seasons from now, we’ll be a much better football team. If I’m wrong and Mangini does believe in Quinn, then two seasons from now he’ll be a lot better. If we’re going to stick with him, we need to stick with him and say:
“In Quinn we trust.”
Terrible Terry Tate - September 22, 2009
Correction
“or the first round draft pick who has never thrown a pass in the pros but who was a highly touted college quarterback with bags of potential.”
I suppose I should point out, before anyone else does, that going into 08, Quinn HAD thrown a few passes in the pros. My sentiment is correct if not the specific claim, IE: Potential versus actual.
Terrible Terry Tate - September 22, 2009
A bit long but very well said.
I can’t blame Mangini for fixing stuff up, there’s just too much to fix in one offseason.
But we can, however, blame Daboll for some playcalling from the planet Zbagt.
skipkirk - September 22, 2009
Zbagt
Is that were mooncamping is from?
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
I agree completely with your analysis of the circumstances and situation involved in benching Anderson last year. I think that Crennel was trying to save his job and it wasn’t the best situation in which to start Quinn. So I discount Quinns performance last year as I do Anderson’s because I think the coaching staff was inept.
But you can’t stick with a guy that doesn’t show you anything (see Frye). NFL starting quarterbacks have to be able to make all the throws and at least be credible down field. I think Quinn has not demonstrated either even when he has had open men. I’ll agree that 2 games are not enough to know but I think where we differ is in our opinion of how many games are needed to consider it to be a fair chance. If Quinn doesn’t look any better in the next few games I’d say that number is 4-6. Again, I’m not saying he has to look like Peyton Manning, but he has to show some spark. I’m looking for more poise in the pocket (Sanchez is showing it right now after starting 2 games in the NFL), the ability to make the right throw at the right time, more accuracy than we’ve seen, and a big play or two in each game. If you are going to give Quinn a year or two after not seeing anything from him in 4-6 games, why didn’t you do the same for Anderson after having seen him do some great things! Why give up on him after the Cincy game when he got you to 10 wins in the first place? So how many seasons are you willing to give up to make sure Quinn isn’t a great QB? I say 0. Are you ready to have Sunday after Sunday be like the last 2 in order to give Quinn a “fair chance”? I’m not.
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
They didn’t give up on Anderson, he was the starter going into 2008.
I am not a professional evaluator, but I’ll need at least 6-8 games before I can start to get a feeling for whether or not he is the right guy. So far it does not look promising.
Actually am, I want to know what Quinn is one way or the other, for better or worse.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
I think what Brady Quinn needs is an “Exit-strategy”. And neither sucking nor winning looks to be one. We need scenarios to get him with another team, pronto!
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
I was referring to fans giving up on Anderson after the Cincy game, not the team. I didn’t make that clear.
I’d give him 6-8 or even more if he shows a spark, makes a big play or two, and isn’t largely responsible for a loss. Right now I’m not seeing anything even promising and if that continues, how can we give him more than 4 games?
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
We give him more than 4 games because developing a QB is more important that winning games this season. The ultimate goal is to win a SB, not to win an individual game. Unless you disagree with that premise. I would argue that developing the QB who gives you the better chance at winning a SB takes priority over improving our potential record by a game or two in a season we aren’t going to make the playoffs.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
I’ve been saying that we should start BQ until we know for certain the answers to our questions about him. Maybe that’s 6 games, 8 games, who knows. But reading your post raises an interesting question, RD. After 6 games and (let’s say) going 1-5, the season’s just about waving goodbye anyway. Do you put in DA then just because it’s fun to watch him throw down field, and maybe to pump up his trade value? Ratliff because you’d like to know if he’s really worth keeping around as a backup?
And I’m really hoping it doesn’t come to that, but….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
I won’t have the definitive answer, but my take is that do whatever gives you the best chance to win the Super Bowl as soon as possible.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Yes this is the “win now” league and I think we should sort this QB thing out as soon as possible. I don’t like the idea of spending too many games on developing QBs. That is what college is for. I mean there is some adjustment to NFL speed and talent but you shouldn’t be seeing a guy holding the ball too long, having little pocket presence and looking completely out of his element. That can’t be developed in a reasonable amount of time. The weird thing is that Quinn didn’t look this bad in any previous games. I always thought the pace of the offense looked better when he was in last year and in pre-season this year. I still was worried about the down-field thing and I’ve heard about every major sports pundit mention it but could what we are seeing now be mental?
Brownsyup - September 23, 2009
possibly… and you’re right: he’s never looked this bad in previous games.
emily522 - September 23, 2009
This.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Just a few things for mooncamping to reiterate:
-Karma predicts if you like neither quarterback you don´t keep either.
-Braylon Edwards and Joshua Cribbs are runners, not receivers. There is a difference.
-Don´t buy into the OLB/DE hybrid hype. They will run all over you to the outside. We need sporty linebackers. Get to the point of impact fast, and impede the progress, get help tackling, you´re not Superman.
-ILB´s need similar versatility, dropping back far if they have to. The heat seeking MLB has seen his last days.
-CB´s need to be proportioned to help with run support. Most cornerbacks in the NFL nowadays are too small for it. The DC ends up devising a weak gameplan to cover it up.
-Let´s start rotating Shaun Rogers through the entire defensive line alignment. He should wreak his havoc all along the offensive line.
-If the quarterback is sitting back in the pocket all day, lets designate some defensive backs, people actually fast enough to get there, to blitz at a more extreme angle. It´s not the sack that disrupts plays, but the hurry up. And I´m saying designate extra defensive backs, on those insultingly obvious passing play set-ups.
-Don´t be a trend getter, be a trend setter. Let´s not cut ourselves short just because mooncamping is seen as a lunatic. Using double fullback sets as regular runningbacks. And employing a “Freaky Flanker” as an added backfield threat lined up as a receiver, aren´t something no one else could have come up with.
-And most of all: The bank doesn´t close for regular season, and cutting a guy isn´t exactly putting him on the street. Get what you want not what you need.
mooncamping - September 22, 2009
None of this applies to our season. Thanks though.
Brad D - September 22, 2009
Sporty linebackers? You mean like a Camaro? Or perhaps a Nissan-Z?
woodsmeister - September 22, 2009
Complete nonsense. Barely the English language.
kwoog - September 22, 2009
lol
rufio - September 23, 2009
;)
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Make your QB better
If you want Quinn to be better – get rid of Anderson. If you want to make Anderson better get rid of Quinn. I really don’t think it matters which one you choose but get the other out of there. It doesn’t matter where but far away as possible. As long as the QB is looking over his shoulder he is going to be questioned as the leader. As a Bengals I know there are a lot of things we do wrong but every time Carson steps on the field they know who their leader is. Oh we have other problems for sure but that is one thing we have done right. If you have two roosters in the hen house one of them is going to kill the other. Backup QBs never win for you consistently anyway. They just get you thru the season. Anderson or Quinn, either one is a liability as a backup. It isn’t a talent thing – it is a leadership thing and with your coach you guys have enough leadership problems. IMO Mangini is your real problem. I know you guys won’t believe me but I want you to get better. I want the Ohio rivalry to mean something. the Bengals Steelers big game of the year game used to be the Bengals Browns big game of the year. I miss that. I really do.
JUNGLEJOHN - September 22, 2009
I agree about Mangini
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
it’s just impossible to say that a guy who has coached 2 games, with a roster that is 90% someone else’s (savage), is THE problem. i’m not saying he’s our savior, but to say he’s our problem, again 2 games in, is outlandish.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
Mangini is not the problem. Kokonis is not the problem. Quinn and Anderson are not the problem. The problem is the decade of near total incompetence that preceded the hiring of Mangini and Kokonis.
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
^ That was supposed to be a reply to JUNGLEJOHN.
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
I think I agree with this, with the exception of a few Phil Savage moves.
rufio - September 22, 2009
The drafting of Thomas and the trade for Rogers are massive wins. I would even call drafting Braylon a very strong win given how bad that draft was.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Jackson, McDonald, Steinbach, Cribbs, Wright, Bentley (at the time of the move) are all above average moves.
kwoog - September 22, 2009
That’s why i said near total incompetence. Savage added some talent to the team, but for every good draft pick or signing there were two or three wasted picks and a bloated free agent contract.
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
I don’t know, I’d say his hit rate on free agents was pretty good. Really the only one that completely bombed was Stallworth. You can hardly blame him for Bentley. Steinbach has been great, Schaffer was even great in 2007, Lewis has given us one great (relative to the other Browns RBs since returning) season and another ok one.
I honestly don’t think it approaches anything close to incompetence. I’ll go with “average” to “slightly below average”. Relative to the other new Browns GMs, that’s phenomenal.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Gary Baxter. Same injury bug.
Bernie19Kosar - September 23, 2009
Was Lewis’ 2007 that much better than Reuben Droughn’s best season?
Ryan Kelsey - September 23, 2009
Fair, but wasn’t Droughns also a Savage free agent? No one before those two was able to break 1000 yards for the Browns (and I know that isn’t a good indicator of a back’s value, I am just trying to point out how bad the other guys were in comparison).
Still, it isn’t as if Lewis and Droughns signed fat deals and then completely bombed on us. They haven’t been consistently awesome, but they’ve been not-Stallworth.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Oh sure, Droughns doesn’t hurt your overall point. I just read any positive point about Jamal Lewis and go into attack mode. Maybe it is a bad habit, sorry.
Ryan Kelsey - September 23, 2009
agreed…and AGREED (with JUNGLJOHN) The incompetance continues. Mangini is arrogant, playing petty mind games with the starting QB instead of putting together a plan for the personnel he has. Granted, there are talent gaps (ok, gaping ones), but look what Parcells did in Miami with not a lot of change from a horrible team. Mangini seems more concerned about providing jobs for Jets castoffs than doing real work to find the talent desperately needed. I don’t expect miracles, but hey, is it so wrong to want a touchdown every half-season or so? Mangini has made no noticeable difference (in game results) from the last two years of Romeo..
dawgged - September 22, 2009
DOH! Look, I did it again…putting the personnel decisions on Mangini. It’s so obvious that Kokonis is not the man in charge of acquiring players, I forget he even exists. Maybe that’s because Lerner made the idiotic mistake of choosing a coach BEFORE the GM not once, but twice. Any valid executive and coaching talent will recognize that they can’t do good work withing the mandates of Randy Lerner, and look elsewhere for employment….now THAT problem is not going away anytime soon
dawgged - September 22, 2009
From my untrained eye ...
It seems to me that in order to run a ball control type offense you have to be able to finish the drive in the end zone on occasion and you have to have a rock solid defense.
From the offensive side, the Browns obviously are not getting it done either in the air or on the ground. Harrison finally got into the game, (3 runs and 4 catches, I think) but was not able to provide any spark. The O-line from the center to the right tackle just isn’t good enough. At least last week they moved the ball a bit, but this week was absolutely horrible.
I know it’s all been said before in this string, but Quinn appears to be doing a poor job. I say appears because I just don’t know what is happening with the receivers, and I’m pretty sure – just a gut feeling mind you – that Daboll is a worthless POS.
The offense was so horrible that perhaps the only way to appease the football gods at this point is a burnt offering. Do you think they would be offended if we offered up St. Claire or Daboll?
On the defensive side, yes there seems to be some improvement at least until later in the game, but one issue that shouldn’t be affected so much by how tired they are (because the offense went 3-and-out AGAIN) is whether they play their assignments. I saw several plays this week where it looked like the entire front seven went to one side of the field where they were neatly bottled up while the play ran to the opposite side. I’m no expert, but I’m pretty sure that’s poor defensive play. Unfortunately, I can’t pick out the players well enough when that happens to tell if it’s the starters or the subs who are aver running the play.
I’m sure there was something else I wanted to vent about, but somewhere between anger, despair and apathy it has slipped my mind.
I think the theme song when the Browns go to Baltimore is going to be U2’s Sunday, Bloody Sunday.
JustBob - September 22, 2009
Hmmm. I just remembered there are a lot of lawyers in the world (because there are a lot of people who love to hire them), so let me place this addendum to my post:
Kids, do not attempt to immolate your neighbors, friends, enemies, offensive linemen, or offensive coordinators. It’s not only illegal, it’s bad form. Tempting, but bad form nonetheless.
JustBob - September 22, 2009
How bad is Quinn really?
I’ll admit he has looked awful these first two games, but the guy has only started 5 games in his career. Take a look at this undersized successful college QB and 32nd overall pick did his first 3 years. I think we’d all be happy if Quinn comes close to repeating that.
dvd1204 - September 22, 2009
That’s what we need to find out. For certain. This year.
I’m starting to sound like a broken record here, so I’ll quit.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
That’s what we need to find out. For certain. This year.
I’m starting to sound like a broken record here, so I’ll quit.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
I don’t make the big bucks. I haven’t coached high school let alone pro football, but even I can tell some very simple things that will improve this offensive offense:
1. Enough with Royal. Heiden needs to play on the right side to shore up the blocking.
2. Vickers needs to play!
3. Enough with the Cribbs at #2. Massaquoi is ready. Furrey needs to be in on third downs.
4. We need to spread the offense once in awhile. Edwards, Mass, and Robo.
5. Cribbs needs to throw from the Wildcat – once! Keep the D honest.
6. Throw a screen pass once in a while.
All these things can help a defense that only gets a three play blow every offensive series.
rusty1ga - September 22, 2009
7. Realize we have little to no run game.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Not bagging you, but it’s funny 2 games in how I sense the mood of Cribbs-no-more-#2 is coming.
General feeling. Not slamming anyone.
skipkirk - September 22, 2009
Brady Quinn is done
Ding… dong …three and four yard passes, when you need ten for a first down ; isn’t cutting it. Bring on DA. with the deep ball, maybe running game with pita pata J.Lewis will work.
Nuts4359 - September 22, 2009
have we actually thrown a pass into the physical end zone this year? i know royal scored on a pass, but he caught the ball at about the 5…the edwards play in the minny game was just outside the end zone…i’m trying to think if we’ve actually crossed the goal line with a pass so far.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
I guess the Edwards shoestring grab which was overturned was caught in the end zone.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
that was the edwards play to which i was referring…i’m not sure that was actually caught IN the endzone, was it? in any event, we haven’t taken many shots into the end zone, and that sucks ass.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
I do think that ball was supposed to be thrown for Braylon to be able to slow his momentum, go up strong, and win on a jump ball as the CB was chasing him and couldn’t get any vertical lift to go up and get it. This would have happened at about the 5.
I do not think it made it in the end zone before Braylon caught it.
rufio - September 23, 2009
just listening to the pluto podcast right now…i swear i hadn’t heard it before i asked the question above. he’s been talking about the browns lack of throws into the end zone for like 4 minutes now…
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
The part that is truly disgusting is that we have not thrown it into the end zone on any of our plays that were within the 10 yard line of the opponent. That has to be some kind of joke or horrible coaching.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
I’ve noticed that our comments are sounding less angry and frustrated. I too have settled down a bit.
We need to let Quinn have his time before we chase him out with fire and pitchforks. Let’s not throw him under the bus just yet!!
Brownie's Year - September 22, 2009
Seems like it. I think the venting stage has passed, mostly.
Not sure I’m ready for the ‘game’ recap yet myself, but we’re getting there….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
I think I’m ready to skip the recap and just go straight to the outlook for next Sunday’s game. We can title the post “Hoping Against Hope”… sorry that is still venting I guess. But I’m pretty much done here now and ready to look forward.
Brownsyup - September 22, 2009
You know, skipping that might not be a bad idea. Sometimes it’s best not to slow down and rubberneck next to the traffic accident.
I’ll be tuning in on Sunday, though!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 22, 2009
Bernie for QB Coach! Teach Brady how to throw that sidearm waba waba ball!!!
rusty1ga - September 22, 2009
can’t see the MangEGO putting anyone else on staff that would detract from his time in the spotlight. He ate up all the attention he got from playing that stupid “I know a secret” thing with the starting QB
dawgged - September 22, 2009
What did we expect when Lerner hired the ballboy to lead this team???
rusty1ga - September 22, 2009
Longevity
I have been a brown’s fan for fifty years. This is the most pathetic excuse for football i have ever seen. It’s becoming obvious why people call them the “clowns”. How many more years will we have to wait for the browns to be a contending team?
Elias1 - September 22, 2009
let’s see, how old is Randy Lerner? I don’t wish the man any ill, but as an owner, he’s inept – things won’t improve until the decisions from the very top get better.
dawgged - September 22, 2009
What decisions of Lerner’s do you not like?
Brad D - September 23, 2009
for starters, twice hiring the head coach before the GM…
dawgged - September 23, 2009
simple research would show that this statement is, in fact, completely wrong. but, continue, by all means…
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
haha
rufio - September 23, 2009
I figured he was one of those.
Brad D - September 24, 2009
anyone seen Corey Willilams?
One of the things that gets overlooked is that we have gotten absolutely nothing from Corey Williams. We gave up a 2nd round pick and he’s the 2nd highest paid player on the team. Just wanted to pile that one on too.
JasonA - September 22, 2009
That’s a very very good question- he’s been MIA for over a season now. At the time (not knowing much about Rogers, and being a bit of a Bodden fan) I thought the Williams trade was better than the Rogers one.
ooops!
LondonBrown - September 22, 2009
True. Corey Williams has been a bust for us. He is a backup- though at a position where your backups will see significant time. But it is kinda useless to evaluate how we acquired him. It’s done. And it was done by a GM and coach who were fired, for, among other things, making bad personnel decisions.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
Yes, there were bad personnel decisions (e.g. Stallworth), but Savage did a decent job in the draft. This compares to the terrible job drafting before Savage.
I’m very concerned about the drafting of the new regime. Mack can’t snap the ball, and the Browns 3 second rounders can barely get playing time. This team just lacks talent. The draft is not the only way to acquire talent (Savage failed in all other ways besides with Rogers), but its the easiest. I know it is only 2 weeks in, but the 09 draft looks pathetic.
oxforddave - September 22, 2009
But a 2 week sample is a pathetic way to evaluate a draft.
It is disappointing that Mack isn’t an immediate pro-bowler, but he did win the job and hasn’t done terribly in blocking. It is disappointing that Robo, Francies, and MoMass and the 2 LBs have barely seen the field. It is disappointing that Davis got hurt.
But the book hasn’t been written on any of these guys. Each could be a 10 time All Pro or out of the league by 2011. It is just way too early to complain about the 09 draft.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
Savage’s drafts:
Beau Bell [gone]
Martin Rucker [hasn’t contributed, usually inactive]
Ahtyba Rubin [Has yet to do much, but looks like a better than average late round pick]
Paul Hubbard [gone]
Alex Hall [Has yet to do much, but looks like an excellent late round pick
Joe Thomas [ProBowl, ProBowl — A+]
Brady Quinn [yet to contribute — cost the Browns a high second and a low first round pick]
Eric Wright [good player]
Brandon McDonald [a number 4 cb]
Melila Purcell [gone]
Chase Pittman [gone]
Syndric Steptoe [gone]
Kamerion Wimbley [good player — handed Ngata to the Ravens in order to pick him]
D’Qwell Jackson [good player]
Travis Wilson [gone]
Leon Williams [gone]
Isaac Sowells [gone]
Jerome Harrison [yet to make a significant contribution]
DeMario Minter [gone]
Lawrence Vickers [ProBowl alternate, I think]
Babatunde Oshinowo [gone]
Justin Hamilton [gone]
Braylon Edwards [ProBowl]
Brodney Pool [the sixth or seventh best safety in the AFC North]
Charlie Frye [gone]
Antonio Perkins [gone]
David McMillan [gone]
Nick Speegle [gone]
Andrew Hoffman [gone]
Jon Dunn [gone]
18 of 30 are no longer on the team. Of those 18, most are out of the league. Of the 12 that are still on the team, 9 are starters, yet most of those players wouldn’t start on half the teams in the league.
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
I’ve had this conversation with others on this site over the years:
This might look bad. But, what does 12 out of 30 look like compared to other teams. The success rate in drafts is much, much worse than most people realize.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
I count 4 really solid contributors, we need more than that out of the draft.
(Thomas, Edwards, Jackson, and Wright….Wimbley is pushing really solid.)
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
The only thing that counts is player acquisition, no matter how it gets done. And as I’ve said elsewhere, Savage acquired 3 or 4 average-above average players every offseason. With continuity over 5+ years, if that is maintained you’ll have a deep and talented roster. Also, it’s very unfair to compare his first three years of drafting to two of the most stable and long standing scouting departments in all of football (PGH and BAL), b/c Savage had to build an entire scouting department from scratch (since Butch apparently drafted based on gut feelings).
kwoog - September 23, 2009
I don’t really agree with the 4-5 players assertion, and if you are overpaying some of them eventually you will run out of room to acquire these players.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
I’ve done this before, but I’ll try again off the top of my head (I said 3-4, not 4-5). I don’t consider any of these players to be overpaid, relative to the time they signed the contract and without the benefit of hindsight, injury wise.
05: Edwards, Pool, Cribbs, Baxter
06: Wimbley, Jackson, Bentley
07: Thomas, Wright, Steinbach, Quinn (TBD) (maybe McDonald)
08: Rogers, umm…. whiffed on Williams (coaching?), ummm… Hall? ummm whiffed on Stalworth. Okay, 08 was not a good offseason, obviously. He should have have dealt DA. But the overall point remains. Try naming the average to above average players acquired any year pre-2005. Or try naming how many for other teams.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
So 2 guys we got really unlucky on with injuries. Wimbley has been below average in every year except his rookie season. I have been a Pool apologist at times on this site, but he really has only played well last season and is off to a poor start this season.
As much as we can’t fault Savage for players getting injured, we also cannot give him credit for acquiring those players.
Overall, not as bad as Botch or Policy, but not anywhere close to being enough.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
I don’t think either Wimbley or Pool are anything less than average starting NFL players. You acquire 3-4 of those a year (while mixing in Stars to above average, like Thomas, Edwards, Steinbach, Bentley), and after 5-7 years you’re the Titans, Steelers, or Ravens depth. The reason it wasn’t enough is because there wasn’t enough time, considering the 04 team was basically an expansion squad.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
See I disagree. Pool at his level of play through the first two games and every year prior to last season is easily a below average safety. Wimbley last year and in 2007 was a below average pass rusher.
Bottom line, as well, until the GM puts a QB in place, the team will be below average. There is a rank of important, and saying Savage did a great job of filling Kick returner and fullback (which are both true) does not do as much to help the team win games as filling the QB position.
Rogers, Thomas, and Edwards save Phil from being a colossal failure, and I will grant all 3 are great pieces. It’s not enough though, plenty of teams have talented players like these three and much more.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
and Wright, and Steinbach, and Jackson, and Bentley, and Baxter. He acquired far more than 3 above average players.
Ozzie Newsome said in the Plain Dealer finding a QB is the toughest part, and it’s taken him a decade to do it.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
I understand Bentley and Baxter are good players, and we got unlucky, but giving him credit injured players is not something I can do.
I like Jackson a lot. Steinbach has been solid but not spectacular. I also think Wright is terrific. In total I think we have about 6 definite above average players which he acquired in I believe 3 years time.
Not horrible, but not enough to be good.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Why can’t you give credit for Bentley and Baxter? They were average-to-superstar quality players at 26 years old when they were signed. And they were offered deals just as big from two very successful organizations (PHL and BAL, respectively). They were the victims of two freak, career ending injuries.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
They were good signings but because of bad luck played no part in helping us get better. Luck is a part of it unfortunately.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Luck is not part of the criteria of evaluating a GM’s effectiveness.
kwoog - September 24, 2009
It is because I refuse to give him credit for guys who contributed absolutely nothing to the team. It is not a knock against him, just not a plus. We have no way to say for certain that these guys would not have been busts. Although I think Bentley was unlikely to be a bust, he was the highest paid center in the league, so he’d have to play like that to justify it.
Roger Dorn - September 24, 2009
Steinbach is very good.
rufio - September 23, 2009
naw. He’s good, but if he was very good our run game would be better
The Licensed Pessimist - September 24, 2009
I thought Pool played well in the Minnesota game—very well.
I only caught the end of the 4th of the Broncos game, and honestly the whole defense looked bad.
I have also been impressed with Wimbley so far this year, when he has seemed much more effective than in his 2nd/3rd years in the NFL.
rufio - September 23, 2009
i looked at this a while ago (pretty sure in the course of a conversation with you), and i didn’t look at the whole league, but 12/30 is the worst in the division, in any case.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
Yeah, it was me. 12/30 isn’t good. But something like 16/30 would be very good. just saying its not as bad as it looks at first glance.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
fair enough. you’re right…good to very good is not, like, 22/30…drafting is a very low-hit proposition.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
Rucker is now gone.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
not to rehash this argument, but
and
are pretty much mutually exclusive.
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
One Williams sighting this so far. During the first game, Favre was shaking his old teammates hand after Williams was 5 seconds late getting to the play. Thats the only time I have seen him this season.
sad dawg - September 22, 2009
So, the word originally was that Williams just needed to adjust to the 3-4. Shouldn’t he have made that adjustment by now? Several teams switched to the 3-4 this year, and seem to have made the adjustment pretty well. I haven’t poured over their rosters, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t all have to go out and replace all of their linemen, did they?
JustBob - September 22, 2009
He’s been good on passing downs this year.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Speaking of Savage drafts, we just cut Rucker (a guy we wasted a next year pick to acquire)
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
This is very sad…Mangini obviously does not want any future potential with this cut.
I am positive that Rucker will be picked up in the next 24 hours and I will follow his career no matter where he ends up.
Mangini is doing absolutely nothing to help his status with Browns fans.
I am starting to see why so many Jets fans and players didn’t like him.
theW0LF - September 22, 2009
I have actually been pleased with the cuts Mangini has made.
Even Winslow.
It’s easier to release a bad player than sign a good player.
skipkirk - September 22, 2009
But to what extent?
At least get a pick for Rucker in a trade.
There are teams that could use him and he could produce in a week or two for them.
Rucker never got a fair chance and now what…the Browns have Royal and Heiden…what happens if one of them gets hurt?
He still has value for a lower round pick based on his potential alone.
theW0LF - September 22, 2009
You are assuming any team was willing to give up a draft pick for Rucker. I am confident we would have traded him if a pick was on the table.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Or the Browns just didn’t even try because they wanted Greg Estandia that bad.
Estandia has replaced Rucker on the roster and he is a HUGE TE at 6’8" and 266 pounds.
Estandia was released by the Jaguars on Monday.
theW0LF - September 22, 2009
I promise you they explored trading him before the cut him. No team would forego draft picks if they had the option instead of releasing, not even the dumbest GM in the league.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
The Browns have a GM?! :)
theW0LF - September 22, 2009
sure they do..I think he’s the guy who takes care of the footballs during practice, now that Mangini has been promoted.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
TO was probably worth a draft pick.
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
i’m assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it isn’t. roger is dead on balls accurate here. there’s no way they “didn’t even try”. everything this regime (mangini and kotnkus (sp)) does is meticulously planned.
but who hasn’t been tempted by the siren call of greg estandia’s football wiles…
DontCallMeJoey - September 22, 2009
I think Estandia isnt bad. He gets over 100 yards each year, hich isnt bad for a backup TE
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
11 of 19 career receptions went for first downs, and he’s been third in special teams tackles for the jags the last two years.
Is Estandia a number 3 TE, a special teamer, or a shot-in-the dark project at right tackle?
e.c. matter - September 22, 2009
I wouldnt mind him at Right Tackle
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
I wouldn’t mind you at RT over St. Clair.
Bernie19Kosar - September 23, 2009
If BQiB can cut block, we’re in business.
rufio - September 23, 2009
All 6’0 135 pounds of me…
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 23, 2009
Anybody remember Harold Carmichael? He spent 13 good years as a receiver for the Eagles (and one Ok one for the Cowboys). He was an excellent receiver, but I remember him mostly because he was 6’8", and was a nightmare matchup for the shorter defensive backs. Throw it high and let him jump!
drjeo - September 23, 2009
I hate the Winslow trade. Winslow would have been a perfect receiver for Quinn.
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
Because at TE, you often don’t run routes farther than Quinn’s arm strength?
Simmsinns - September 23, 2009
Now you are just being ignorant
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 23, 2009
It was a joke, let go of your Quinn obsession for 2 seconds and get over it.
Simmsinns - September 23, 2009
Nothing that has happened these first two weeks has disproven the theory that Quinn has a relatively weak arm.
Brad D - September 24, 2009
Other than the fact that every time he’s tried to throw it long (however rare that’s been) the ball has traveled there easily and with a lot of speed. So yeah, other than reality, you’re right.
kwoog - September 24, 2009
Correction, I should have said: “Because at TE, you often don’t run routes farther than Quinn’s range of accuracy?”
But that wouldn’t be true if the TE past the line of scrimmage, I suppose.
Simmsinns - September 23, 2009
Again, Mangini cutting Rucker has very little say on Savage’s drafts. At this point, it’s almost a vote of confidence for them.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
well, it’s certainly not a vote of confidence. mangini cutting him isn’t determinative, but it sure as heck isn’t a positive thing.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
Tongue in cheak, as in, if Mangini likes a guy he probably sucks at football… and vice versa.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
As I mentioned in the other thread, it’s on the player now to show he doesn’t suck for another team. Until then, it’s safe to assume he is not good getting cut from the Browns.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Until I see some acumen regarding player acquisition from this regime, I don’t think it’s safe to assume that. Admittedly it’s too early to make a call either way. I’m just saying that I’m not giving an unknown the benefit of the doubt over a known that had some success (Savage).
I also think it’s safer to assume that the new regime comes in with bias for bringing in “their guys”, as much anti bias as the previous regime’s pro bias.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
I am going to go on assuming they are bad until one of them does anything at all for another team.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Fair enough, I’m not really arguing in complete earnest. Like I said elsewhere, even with those three 08 draft pics being complete busts (and the 3rd and 5th rounders gone with them), they’re hardly damning mistakes. The aggregate downside isn’t even close to that of a pick spent on, say, Warren, C. Brown, W. Green, etc etc etc.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Comparing yourself to Butch Davis is not the way to get ahead as a General Manager.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
My point was that the aggregate effects of those failed pics/trades isn’t even as bad as one blown 1st round pick. And every team has a Kyle Boller moment, or a (hopefully) Mendenhall moment. It was a bad offseason, but hardly a disaster.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Well, depending on how Quinn turns out, it could end up being equal to blowing a first round pick on Kyle Boller.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Quinn sucks
Bench Quinn, then we’ll start winning.
Nuts4359 - September 22, 2009
Agree.
Agree.
Don’t agree.
Simmsinns - September 22, 2009
I will probably repeat this in a thread by Chris discussing the moves, but I want to highlight that we blew four picks on two guys that did jack for the Browns.
For Bell we used a 4th round pick on the player, and traded a 3rd round pick to acquire him.
For Rucker, we used a 4th round pick on the player, and traded a 5th round pick to acquire him.
Unacceptable.
This doesn’t even include the fact that we got owned in the Corey Williams trade giving up a 2nd in that same draft or that we gave up a first for a QB that is struggling big time.
The Shaun Rogers trade, and the potential of Hall are saving this from being the worst Browns draft of all time.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
Actually, I think one of the trades wasn’t a net -2 because we didn’t flip-flop picks, but you get the idea.
Roger Dorn - September 22, 2009
That turned out to be a horrible draft. The Rogers trade was awesome. The actual draft day…wow.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Maybe tommorrow I can look into the worst Browns drafts of all time. This has gotta be up there.
Bernie19Kosar - September 23, 2009
the fifth rounder was used on Hubbard
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
Fixed.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
It’s literally the 4th best draft of our re-inception. It’s better than any draft 1999-2004. 1/2 Quinn, Rogers, Williams, Hall and Rubin.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
That does sound better than any pre-Savage Browns GM. Trades included, of course.
rufio - September 23, 2009
When one admits that drafting is a low-hit endeavor, it’s ridiculous to crucify him for three picks in rounds 4-7. I know he gave up an additional 3rd and 5th, and I’m admitting they were mistakes. But they were hardly egregious ones, and even with them we got SHAUN FREAKING ROGERS and 1/2 of a franchise QB (at the time?), not to mention Williams Hall and Rubin. Worst ever? That’s laughable.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Williams has been a massive bust. You just don’t pay a backup defensive tackle as your second highest paid player.
Rogers is incredible and what saves this from being an awful draft.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Williams has not worked out. He was a young, franchised DT, and Savage argued he was better than anyone they could have picked in the 2nd round. Sometimes people miss.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
I see one guy out of this group that you have listed that has had a real positive impact for the Browns so far, Rogers. The others we are still dreaming of their potential which has yet to be realized. Until that time, I don’t think we can make assumptions about where it ranks, but right now it has to be up there with the 1999-2004 draft.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Which is to say, I am high on a guy like Rubin, but he really hasn’t done anything yet.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
And what they’ve done yet is a spectacularly poor way to judge the 08 offseason/draft.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
But we cannot also give him credit for guys that haven’t done anything yet. We should give discredit for players that have been cut from a bottom team in the NFL though.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Right. So a below average draft/offseason is one where he lands a superstar, and a couple of depth pieces, and handcuffs some future money in an overpaid DT. That’s better than anything from 99-04. And that’s the worst performance. The best case is Thomas/Quinn/Wright/McDonald. We’ll be lucky if those two extremes are the spectrum within which Kokinis and Mangini work.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Quinn and Mcdonald still have a lot to prove.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Look, I am not trying to tear down Savage, I think he was ok. But comparing him favorably to 1999-2004 is not going to build us a winner. This team is still devoid of a lot of talent at very important positions. We do not have one game-changing player, a player who will take over the game offensively or create turnovers/sacks on command defensively.
Roger Dorn - September 23, 2009
Fair enough. Most of my argument is more based on the theory of continuity, and the assumption that a 42 year old “ok” first time GM will learn and get better.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
I don’t know how TBD = Couch, Warren, W. Green, etc etc etc. In fact, I know it doesn’t equal that.
kwoog - September 23, 2009
Watching the game on DVR, they need to put another butt on St. Clair’s guy.
St. Clair couldn’t do his job Sunday.
tribe71 - September 22, 2009
The Hard Facts
Fact 1 – The Browns suck.
Fact 2 – The reason we suck is because we suck at drafting.
Fact 3 – Early returns from the 2009 draft indicate it is as disastrous as the 2008 and 2004 drafts.
Therefore – we are prolly 3 years away from being decent from the day we fix our drafting. There is no evidence that the drafting is close to being fixed.
realmccoy - September 22, 2009
Fact 1- There is no way to evaluate the 2009 draft as of now. none. Whatsoever. Any attempt to do so after two regular season games is moronic.
Fact 2- If we have a chronic problem of drafting, it was changed with the change of coach and GM. How we drafted in 2004-08 has NO IMPACT on how we will draft with Kokinis and Magini.
Fact 3- Subject lines are an eyesore.
Therefore- you should think before you randomly post.
Ryan Kelsey - September 22, 2009
You can look at it a little after 1 year
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
A little, yes, but I think it really takes 3 yrs. to make a realistic assessment. Agree that it’s silly to look at this year’s draft based on the first 2 games. Makes no sense at all.
drjeo - September 23, 2009
Yep.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Since we have been talking about the offseason, I will create my offseason wishlist:
AND POSSIBLY
Here are Prospects (by projected round) that I like
ROUND 1Eric Berry
ROUND 2Jahvid Best
Jonathan Dwyer
Ndamkong Suh
Sergio Kindle
Anthony Davis
Jerry Hughes
Arthur Jones
Mike Johnson
Sergio Render
DeMarco Murray
Jermaine Gresham
Darrell Stuckey
ROUND 3
Myron Rolle
Kyle Wilson
Mitch Petrus
Vince Oghobaase
Sam Young
Kyle Calloway
I will continue this post tommorow, but please feel free to comment on it.
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 22, 2009
Man, are we really ready for an in-depth analysis on next year’s draft prospects? No criticism intended, I mean, go with what feels right to you, but even reading this two games into the season gives me stabbing pains through the cerebral cortex….
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 23, 2009
I forgot about Rolle.
Is Sam Young really only a 3rd round prospect at this point? I would think he would be at least 2nd round.
rufio - September 23, 2009
I have seen him projected anywhere from late 1st to early 3rd
BradyQuinnisBeast - September 23, 2009
Jahvid Best will end up like Reggie Bush. A bust a full time RB, but decent receiver, good for screens, and not worth a 1st round pick. You need more then strait line speed in the NFL.
Simmsinns - September 23, 2009
Best has some moves and some power (more than Bush, anyway). I still wouldn’t use a first on him.
rufio - September 23, 2009
Best is most like Marshall Faulk, and a little like Chris Johnson
TheRealSlimShady - September 25, 2009
Man this thread is so long I can’t find new posts any more…. new thread! Maybe an outlook for Sunday thread?
Brownsyup - September 23, 2009
Leadership
I realize that as a Bengals fan my comments may not be really welcome by many but I appreciate that you are willing to listen to dialogue. I am an outsider and my perspective is objective (until we play you of course) . I am a management and business consultant. That is what I was educated to do. That is how I have earned my living for almost 30 years and you don’t survive in this business is you don’t do it well. So when I speak about organizational and management skills I know from where I speak.
That being said I will tell you the everything I have read and seen revolving around the Browns organization indicates, much the same as with the Bengals, weak leadership and personal skills in the upper and mid management positions of the organization.
Mangini has a problem common to to many people in mamagment who fail. He thinks being tough and demanding is leading. Oh, it is part of a successful tactic but it idoes more damage than good if you don’t first establish mutual respect and communication. Anytime you, as a leader, give commands to people who have not signed on to the agenda you drive people apart not together.
The first thing I would do if I were Mangini ischoose one guy to be my field general and give him my full support. I would choose him based on talent on the field and off. I would then charge him with getting in the trenched and earning the respect of his peers. Who do you guys think is most respected between Quinn and Anderson? Whoever that guy is make him QB and ship the other one out. The talent between the two is about equal though bioth have different skills.
There are guys in the locker room who want Anderson and there are guys who want Quinn. As long as both of these guys are there and Mangini waffeles between the two will be division. Once one is gone the guy who stays has a chance of winning over the guys in the other camp. If he can’t then he simple is not the right guy for the job and you need to find him somewhere. The only way the Bengals have been able to survive at all is that Palmer is respected universally in the locker room. It is the same with Peyton, Bradey as it was with Bradshaw, Marino, Elway and Unitas and yes Brian Sipe. Sorry for the long dialogue. I get passionate about this subject. I want an all Ohio AFC title game before I die and both team have a lot of work to do and not as many years as I would like to get it done..
JUNGLEJOHN - September 23, 2009
..and that's the difference.
real world leadership would do just what you suggest John: Earn respect and set up a system that breeds trust and confidence—-BUT—-Mangini is still clinging to that rags (ball boy) to riches (head coach) ego trip to demand a lot of things he hasn’t earned. He’s under the impression that he players should respect him because he managed to con Randy Lerner into handing him the job. It doesn’t work that way, but we fans can only suffer through a few more seasons and hope the next con artist actually has SOME ability to back it up.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
Two games, people. TWO GAMES.
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 23, 2009
two games that feel just like the last 10 years…two games without an offensive touchdown (no, that one against the vikings does NOT count). I don’t think anyone expected the new “leadership” to produce a playoff team in 9 months, but is it wrong to expect something to look different? some ONE thing, ANY thing? Other than Mangini wearing a shirt a few sizes smaller than Romeo, and the team in brown pants on Sunday – what’s different?
dawgged - September 23, 2009
Hey, I’m sympathetic; last week was nauseating. More needs to change, sure. But while you can complain about the results of previous changes, for a start:
- Cribbs gets his legitimate shot at a receiver slot, to win or lose
- BQ gets his clean shot at the starting job, to win or lose
- Kamerion Whimbley gets taught a new move or two
Romeo did so well on these, didn’t he? I’m indifferent to Mangini at this point, but to make a final judgment on him after two games just seems silly.
But hey, we could go ahead and fire him. Let’s bench BQ after two games and put DA in again too. Maybe we can re-sign Shaun Smith. I hear he’s free. There’s some positive energy we could use on this team, right?
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 23, 2009
I agree it’s far too early to make a final judgement on Mangini, the problem I (and I admit this is just personal) have with him is that he comes across as a jerk.
He’s arrogant – pretending that not naming the starting QB was some sort of “edge”.
He’s disrespectful – the required Connecticut trip
He’s needlessly harsh – seriously $1700 for a bottle of water?
He’s pretentious – suggesting there were GM candidates he “couldn’t work with” as if he’d done anything to deserve input in that decision.
…and he’s brat – he’s a young coach, not particularly successful and keeps playing the “ballboy-to-boss” card far too often for my taste.
I doubt I’ll ever like him. If he won football games, or even showed the potential to do so, I’d give him a pass and keep my dislike quiet. As it is, he’s stirred the pot to boiling by two VERY unimpressive games to start.
…so I vent here.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
Sorry if reacted a little strongly there. Venting you were. I certainly had a “Not again!” reaction on Sunday myself.
I agree that personally Mangini seems like a bit of an a**. However, it’s my personal experience that sometimes a**es make effective bosses, unpleasant as that may be. Time will tell.
It is time for me to vacate the venting thread though. I’m done and am ready to look (trepidatiously, for sure) ahead. Go Browns!
RelapsingDawgCatcher - September 23, 2009
the Browns are in big trouble, the players are at best seem lost. the defense is doing ok until they get tired, our offense can’t keep a drive to let them rest. Fans I am totally sorry but i have to say this i cried to watch my browns these last to weeks it was sad. The D just get let down by that weak offense, but everyone says it is the draft. No you are so wrong. BROWNS NEED COACHING AND LEADERSHIP!!!!! we have not had a good offensive coordinator in years that was unpredictable and explosive remember when Davis was the coach we may have lost but our offense was dynamic, teams really had to watch us. We don’t have that now. horrible play calling. 1 screen all day, 2 toss sweeps, Brady can’t find receivers, tackle not blocking.
djwbgd - September 23, 2009
What the Browns need most is stability. Blowing shit up every three years never has worked and never will work. If I were Lerner, I’d give Mangini and Kokonis each a five year extension THIS WEEK.
e.c. matter - September 23, 2009
caveat...
I’d hire someone with a record of winning and give THEM five (heck, maybe seven) years to do it. Cowher, Martz, Dungy….lots of talent available, but you’ll have to do two things. Step back (Lerner has shown he can do this), I give him A+ here. Pay up (not sure about ownership here..lets say C for now) I suspect (just a hunch, not claiming any knowledge) we might have a problem here.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
more selective memory on randy lerner…and i know i’m coming across as a serious lerner apologist on here (i swear, my last name is not lerner). randy gets an A++ for paying up…he’s never hesitated to cut a big check for a free agent or anything else related to the football team. to suggest anything else is just inaccurate.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
your profile pic looks nothing like Lerner, so you’re safe ;
I wouldn’t give him an A++ for the recent signings
Stallworth, Bentley, Steinbach, Lewis, Jurevicious, …i can see reasons for each, even though the last two were clearly on the downside of their careers, and nobody in their right mind thought any of them would have a “franchise” type impact on the Browns.
Hallen and Schaeffer (2 more OL) were disasters.
Still, when you consider what was available, you have to ask why different guys weren’t signed. Two recent years for example (from memory, forgive me if I’m off):
2006 DB-Wooden, RB- Alexander, Foster WR-Wayne
2007 QB-Schaub, Brooks RB-Turner
Most of them (ok Shaun Alexander and DeShaun Foster …NO) would have been impact players but we went the way of relying mostly on drafted skill positions and building the OL/DL through free agency. It’s possible that was the theory of the front office, but i get the sense that they knew the budget wasn’t there to sign top, skill position free agents…
Is my selective memory missing some impact FA???
I also question the ability of ownership to attract dynamic executive talent (Parcells, Johnson etc) seems Lerner likes to surround himself with a “quieter” bunch…It’s great for the owner to take a quiet role (I prefer Rooney and Kraft’s style to Jones and Davis) but that works best with a more agressive front office.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
first, you’re completely missing the point. lerner had nothing to do with deciding who to sign, he’s just the one who put his name on the largest center contract ever for lecharles bentley, guaranteeing him $12.5mm…bentley, by the way, was the top free agent available in ‘06…o-line or otherwise. and that’s just one example.
second:
that’s completely made up. you definitely have zero evidence to back that one up. i mean, the browns paid donte stallworth twice as much as anyone else was offering. “top” is a relative term, for one, and for another…there’s this inconvenient little thing known as the salary cap, which has prevented the browns from competing on a guy like michael turner (matt schaub was a trade plus extension). finally, the browns are consistently in the top-5 in salary…which shows how much lerner is willing to spend, and potentially the ineptitude of his front office people.
as for the dynamic executive talent…i mean, where to even go with this one? savage and romeo were both widely recognized as “it” guys for gm and coach when he hired them. he couldn’t agree to the right kind of a deal with pioli…and away from him, who would you have hired this past offseason?
the owner’s spending, unequivocally, is not the problem.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
Okay – i’m willing to lay the free agent “mix” at the feet of the guys Lerner hired, I still have a a problem with WHO he hired and exactly how he went about it. Crennel BEFORE Savage (we disagree on Crennel, he was not “it” – there was buzz, but it was his first head coaching job) and now Mangini BEFORE Kokonis…I wish Lerner’s “hands off” attitude applied to all the field personnel. If you’re hiring a coach first, why not start with the defensive coordinator or strength and conditioning guy, and have THEM tell you which GM they can “work with” – better to hire two guys (one football, one exec) and have them put the people on the field (and sidelines). The spending (amount) might not be the problem, but the spending (management) clearly has not been effective.
The salary cap applies to all teams if we DIDN’T overpay for Bentley and Stallworth, (and waste on Hallen, Schaeffer etc..) then we have room to go after Tuner/Schaub types…but you are correct, this is more the fault of the people Lerner hired, than the man himself. That is something he needs to do better in the future.
And that was my original point – I don’t know HOW Lerner would interact with a GM who was really in charge (Kokonis has been invisible) so I gave the “C” grade.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
well, once more your facts are off. savage was hired before romeo…you can even look it up.
and the hyperbole of hiring a strength and conditioning coach first is absurd, clearly. there are two guys who make a football team go…the GM and the coach. those are the relevant hires. it actually happens rather frequently that a coach is hired first…and further, why wouldn’t you want to hire a GM with whom you know your coach can work? isn’t that part of the reason that romeo and phil went down in flames? what is so magical about hiring the GM first? ultimately, he and the coach are going to have to figure out how to co-exist and build a team together.
randy’s hired 2 “regimes” — phil/romeo and mangini/kotnkus (sp) — and is 0-for-1 w/ an incomplete grade on the second. that’s hardly an irretrievable failure. the C that you gave him seemed to apply to the spending, however, which is clearly not accurate. if you want to give him a C for the people he’s hired to run football, well, that is a different story.
also, once more to nitpick, schaub never hit the open market. the texans traded for and extended him.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
you’re kidding, right? losing with a dynamic offense is better than losing the way we have the last two weeks? they’re all losses…they all suck…they all result in missed playoffs.
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
sure all losses suck, but there is a difference. And that’s where I’m stuck – is it worse to:
A) go into a game like this Sunday with virtually no hope of winning and be disgusted to the point of turning it off after BQ crawls out from under Ray Lewis for the fifth time.
B)go and entire season, praying, then hoping, then believing…only to have your heart ripped out by “Red Right 88” or “The Fumble”
…seriously, these are way different kinds of “suck” and I’m not sure which is worse.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
well, to me, clearly A) is worse. there is no hope, no possibility of making a playoff run, etc. at least with the fumble, heart-shattering though it was, we enjoyed the heck out of getting there, and optimistically could return.
but when you lose as much as the browns have (under all the new regimes), there is something systemically flawed. and whether you have a shit defense and “dynamic” offense, or a turd offense and capable defense…the suck is deep and the losing epic. we managed to go 4-12 with that “dynamic” offense, so what’s the difference, right?
DontCallMeJoey - September 23, 2009
Agreed there, doesn’t matter what road you take, there’s no joy upon arriving in Mudville. We can all agree that winning does not suck – or at least that the people who DO win seem to enjoy it. I guess that’s just conjecture in the end as I’m an Indians fan also.
dawgged - September 23, 2009
I agree. The “SUCK” is deep rooted and tenacious. We have to learn how to WANT to win before we can learn to win.
CT Dawg - September 23, 2009
Talent
Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers. Quinn has had the same amount (or more) of prep time. He reminds a lot of a former Browns QB, named Tim Couch. Locks into receivers, throws short, moderate arm strength at best, holds onto the ball too long. We played DENVER, not exactly a high powered defense.
Derek Anderson at least stretches the field and makes the defensive backs back up. Last year I watched Braylon drop 7 or 8 DEEP balls that would have altered the outcome of the game, and everyone blamed Derek. Sure his short and middle accuracy is questionable, but he cares secondaries b/c if no one is open he’ll fling it deep. Eventually that leads to effective draws and bubble screens. I know everyone is sold on BQ, but if you’ve played or watched enough football, BQ is an ordinary QB forced into a ball-control attack, and we don’t have the personnel for a ball-control attack. Give it back to DA, the outcome certainly could not have come out worse based on the first two weeks. The defensive collapse in the second half is becoming a pattern. I actually look for fantasy players that play the Browns b/c I can be guranteed a good big play in the second half. Why not actually BLITZ at least once a half, you’ll actually throw the offense off a little!
Groovechild - September 23, 2009
I’m as big a DA fan as there is, I’m certain of that, but even I only recall two drops by Edwards that changed the complexion of a game.
Brad D - September 24, 2009
What games wre you watching?
Jay M - September 24, 2009
Let me be clear
I am not saying that Mangini will fail. What I am saying is that I see what I consider to be flaws in his approach that flay in the face of everything I have learned in my experience. But, to be fair I have also seen things that I was sure had a snowballs chance of working actually working. I am not here to criticize or indict Mangini. It all might work out but IMO the odds are against it.
Is it possible that Quinn fell thru the first round for a reason? Flacco, Stafford and now Sanchez have pretty well blown up the “well he is just a rookie” theory, I’m just saying.
JUNGLEJOHN - September 24, 2009
flacco and ryan flouted the rookie theory…stafford and sanchez still have 14 games apiece to screw the pooch.
and even if they are all-world…the 1999 draft alone craps on their success and assures that the “he’s just a rookie” theory persists: couch, akili smith, mcnown…
flacco/ryan (possibly stafford/sanchez) are the exception to the rule.
DontCallMeJoey - September 24, 2009
Stafford and now Sanchez have "
Nuts4359 - September 26, 2009
Stafford has sucked
TheRealSlimShady - September 27, 2009
Stafford looked pretty good yesterday.
Roger Dorn - September 28, 2009
Quinn is possibly the biggest Dud in the History
of number one draft picks. I know he is a local guy but you know what? he hasn’t shown me a thing in two seasons and very little even in preseason. You get guys like mat Ryan down there in Atlanta that took a bad Atlanta team from the year before and has put them on his shoulders. Same with Flacco and hell look at the Jets and a few other teams with other drafts. BQ was suppose to lead the team to greatness. Lets be honest here the talent is not that bad here we just don’t have a Great QB to pull the trigger. Dump BQ and DA. Draft Pike from Cincy make him the starter from jump street and go from there. We can’t be any worse then we are now. Three complete coaching staffs and a ton of changes since we were awarded a new Franchise and you know what..we are at square one. The BQ love affair is over.
BQ Bots and DA Bots need to come to that conclusion. Quit being homers and accept that this guy is a dud.
Jay M - September 24, 2009
thank goodness you got here. i don’t know what we’ve been doing without you…
DontCallMeJoey - September 24, 2009
Quinn hasn’t shown you a thing in 2 seasons? How could he, he hasn’t played!
Roger Dorn - September 24, 2009
wow, somebody didn’t get their caffeine fix today.
talonk - September 24, 2009
It’s a bold statement considering Quinn was taken in the 20s and there have been massive flameouts at number 1 overall. It would be impossible to pass Couch and Courtney Brown as duds considering where they were drafted.
Roger Dorn - September 24, 2009
He didn’t actually limit it to Browns draft picks, did he? So Jay M appears to be arguing that Quinn is a bigger bust than, say, Ryan Leaf. Seems like a tough argument to make.
drjeo - September 24, 2009
Its the browns, no matter who was there they would be 0-2. Even Belichik couldn’t get it done with this poop franchise.
www.SportsMumboJumbo.com
EricFeld - September 26, 2009
this comment makes no sense. And thanks for the totally gratuitous link, apropos of nothing.
drjeo - October 1, 2009
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